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Pinnacle voids Dark vs. San bets due to match manipulation…

Forum Index > SC2 General
1079 CommentsPost a Reply
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Matchfixing is a very serious offence and accusations of matchfixing should not be made lightly. Please avoid making accusations against specific individuals unless you have substantial proof, or until further information is released. (0620 KST)
calh
Profile Joined March 2013
537 Posts
January 21 2015 02:17 GMT
#421
Pinnacle could have the clearest evidence ever, but it doesn't mean shit until they make it public. You just don't turn up to court and say "I could prove this guy stole my money, but I'd rather not". I'm actually more interested in reactions from the Korean scene.
dsousa
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1363 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-21 02:34:16
January 21 2015 02:23 GMT
#422
On January 21 2015 11:17 calh wrote:
Pinnacle could have the clearest evidence ever, but it doesn't mean shit until they make it public. You just don't turn up to court and say "I could prove this guy stole my money, but I'd rather not". I'm actually more interested in reactions from the Korean scene.



User was warned for this post
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
January 21 2015 02:25 GMT
#423
dark is favored against san anyway
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
icydergosu
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
528 Posts
January 21 2015 02:26 GMT
#424
So all it takes to ruin someones reputation is a couple of thousand dollars?

If i win i stay quiet.
If i lose i spread rumours of match fixing in hopes of voiding the bet.
I am the Punishment of God. If you had not commited great sins, god would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.
Darthsanta13
Profile Joined July 2011
United States564 Posts
January 21 2015 02:32 GMT
#425
Just to get an idea of how one-sided the line was, I tried to look up on Aligulac how big a gap there has to be before a player has only a 20% chance to win (which, if these bets are rational/not tampered with in some way, is what someone would have to believe).

Here's an example of what an 80-20 matchup looks like:
       (2167) TaeJa  0-0  MiNiMaTh (1384)    
---------------------------------------------
80.10% 1-0 0-1 19.90%
---------------------------------------------
80.10% 19.90%

Median outcome: TaeJa 1-0 MiNiMaTh

Estimated by Aligulac. Modify.

I think this gives a better idea of how one-sided the odds would have to be for the betting line to make sense if it wasn't tampered with. Even if the evidence so far is circumstantial at best, it's unreasonable to not at least consider the possibility that something happened here.
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
January 21 2015 02:37 GMT
#426
On January 21 2015 11:11 lichter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2015 10:59 dsousa wrote:
Could the replay of the match provide conclusive evidence?


playing like crap isn't evidence

San didn't even play that bad



if it was then I can think of multiple games that Virus cheated xD.


on topic is think its much more likely someone heard about how crappy he was playing/healthwise and bet a bunch of money on dark.
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
showstealer1829
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
Australia3123 Posts
January 21 2015 02:37 GMT
#427
There simply isn't enough information to go on with all this, it could be match fixing, it could be the coach knew about San's wrist and shoulder problem's, fielding him anyway and bet on Dark or it could just simply be there were whispers about and enough people got on Dark to trigger an alarm at Pinnacle

People are so quick to jump, what's next? Flash losing 11 matches in a row was match fixing?
There is no understanding. There is only Choya. Choya is the way. Choya is Love. Choya is Life. Has is the Light in the Protoss Dark and Nightmare is his chosen Acolyte
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
January 21 2015 02:49 GMT
#428
This sounds to me more like someone got some insider information and bet on it, rather than match fixing. If someone heard through the grapevine that San had been getting less practice time and had been to the hospital, it would make a ton of sense to bet big on Dark.

Pinnacle only claimed there were problems in the betting, not that they believed there was matchfixing.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
IAMPRO
Profile Joined November 2011
Afghanistan118 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-21 03:19:15
January 21 2015 03:15 GMT
#429
The circumstantial evidence* is extremely damning. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/40/sports-betting/esport-betting-1497866/index12.html

For a line to move like that despite huge counterbetting given the crazy good odds there must have been an insane amount of $ on Dark at completely illogically bad odds. It is like somebody betting $20,000 on BboongBboong as a 4-1 dog to beat Flash. It's completely ridiculous.

I'm not gonna add my interpretation of the match because it's too subjective given the context. I'd recommend reading the LR thread for a priori opinions of how San played.

*nb - it remains circumstantial. Whether this can be conclusively proved, though, is questionable.
SuHoSin - we'll never forget your genius
Clonester
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany2808 Posts
January 21 2015 03:21 GMT
#430
On January 21 2015 12:15 IAMPRO wrote:
The circumstantial evidence* is extremely damning. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/40/sports-betting/esport-betting-1497866/index12.html

For a line to move like that despite huge counterbetting given the crazy good odds there must have been an insane amount of $ on Dark at completely illogically bad odds. It is like somebody betting $20,000 on BboongBboong as a 4-1 dog to beat Flash. It's completely ridiculous.

I'm not gonna add my interpretation of the match because it's too subjective given the context. I'd recommend reading the LR thread for a priori opinions of how San played.

*nb - it remains circumstantial. Whether this can be conclusively proved, though, is questionable.


Your link shows very good, that its not about someone losing money shitting on a player. Betters are professionals and now what they talk about.
Something has gone on on the bets of this game but you cant say if it was inside informations about Sans wrist, San himself or something else. Accusing San is not the way to go, but accusing this game is right.
Bomber, Attacker, DD, SOMEBODY, NiKo, Nex, Spidii
mikumegurine
Profile Joined May 2013
Canada3145 Posts
January 21 2015 03:21 GMT
#431
"not played on a fair basis"

could this mean they acknowledge the possibility that it was insider information which made it not a fair bet, or are the completely saying that its matchfixing?
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
January 21 2015 03:26 GMT
#432
It looks shady but if I'm understanding the logic correctly it seems like it could have been a spontaneous betting bandwagon that shifted the odds enough to make it look like foul play.

If a few people happen to make very "eager" bets on a match and others see the trend and it snowballs more than it usually would (for whatever reason), then I can see why the numbers would look like the match is arranged. But it very well could be a false positive. Hopefully it is...
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
January 21 2015 03:28 GMT
#433
On January 21 2015 12:15 IAMPRO wrote:
I'm not gonna add my interpretation of the match because it's too subjective given the context. I'd recommend reading the LR thread for a priori opinions of how San played.


based on the game, it was not fixed by the players
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-21 03:35:56
January 21 2015 03:35 GMT
#434
On January 21 2015 12:21 mikumegurine wrote:
"not played on a fair basis"

could this mean they acknowledge the possibility that it was insider information which made it not a fair bet, or are the completely saying that its matchfixing?


I think it could be either. I'm pretty sure it's a blanket term for somethings weird and we're looking into it. Don't think the statement in itself is meant to point one way or the other
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
January 21 2015 03:41 GMT
#435
No one on pinnacle has accused any of the players. They are saying the match betting patterns appeared suspicious, not the match itself. They likely have no information other than the numbers. Trying to extrapolate that into evidence that players were involved is ridiculous. It could have been some idiot trying to make a scandal. It could have been someone with insider information. It could have been something else entirely. Anyone with a right mind can see that this "match fixing" was done in the most obvious and silly way possible. Until pinnacle release more info, there's no reason to suspect the players especially if you watched the game.
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
bduddy
Profile Joined May 2012
United States1326 Posts
January 21 2015 03:45 GMT
#436
On January 21 2015 12:41 lichter wrote:
No one on pinnacle has accused any of the players. They are saying the match betting patterns appeared suspicious, not the match itself. They likely have no information other than the numbers. Trying to extrapolate that into evidence that players were involved is ridiculous. It could have been some idiot trying to make a scandal. It could have been someone with insider information. It could have been something else entirely. Anyone with a right mind can see that this "match fixing" was done in the most obvious and silly way possible. Until pinnacle release more info, there's no reason to suspect the players especially if you watched the game.
I'm not understanding what you're trying to say here. What other way of match fixing is there aside from one of the players intentionally losing the game?
>Liquid'Nazgul: Of course you are completely right
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-21 03:48:46
January 21 2015 03:47 GMT
#437
On January 21 2015 12:45 bduddy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2015 12:41 lichter wrote:
No one on pinnacle has accused any of the players. They are saying the match betting patterns appeared suspicious, not the match itself. They likely have no information other than the numbers. Trying to extrapolate that into evidence that players were involved is ridiculous. It could have been some idiot trying to make a scandal. It could have been someone with insider information. It could have been something else entirely. Anyone with a right mind can see that this "match fixing" was done in the most obvious and silly way possible. Until pinnacle release more info, there's no reason to suspect the players especially if you watched the game.
I'm not understanding what you're trying to say here. What other way of match fixing is there aside from one of the players intentionally losing the game?



somone could had information they shouldn't have had about San's playing condition so they knew dark was incredibly heavily favored. or someone could have theoretically thrown thousands to tens of thousands of dollars betting on dark to try to move the betting line for some reason.

both of these could have messed up the betting pattern.
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
Lumi
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States1616 Posts
January 21 2015 03:54 GMT
#438
Here's what I'd like to know. How'd the betting go and did they lose money on it? If so, how much? Nobody is talking about how all of the betting for that match was voided, with this story being given as the reasoning for that. What if nothing happened and they're just trying to excuse themselves for scooping up lost money? Just a thought.
twitter.com/lumigaming - DongRaeGu is the One True Dong - /r/onetruedong
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
January 21 2015 03:57 GMT
#439
On January 21 2015 12:54 Lumi wrote:
Here's what I'd like to know. How'd the betting go and did they lose money on it? If so, how much? Nobody is talking about how all of the betting for that match was voided, with this story being given as the reasoning for that. What if nothing happened and they're just trying to excuse themselves for scooping up lost money? Just a thought.


All the bets on that match were voided. Meaning everyone was refunded for the bets they made and no money changed hands. Pinnacle is a big betting company and the match means nothing to their bottom line. The odds were moved because someone was betting large amounts of money on Dark. The amount of money being thrown at Dark was suspicious, and the bets were voided. It isn't a matter of finding excuses to void the bets on the match because, based on available information, it really did look weird. Pinnacle were right to void betting on the match, but people are trying to immediately turn it into a match fixing scandal without more evidence.
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-21 04:04:11
January 21 2015 03:58 GMT
#440
On January 21 2015 12:54 Lumi wrote:
Here's what I'd like to know. How'd the betting go and did they lose money on it? If so, how much? Nobody is talking about how all of the betting for that match was voided, with this story being given as the reasoning for that. What if nothing happened and they're just trying to excuse themselves for scooping up lost money? Just a thought.



It's been covered in the thread earlier but I'll summarize as best as I can. Pinnacle is one of the largest betting organizations in the world. They take huge amounts of money on sporting events all the time. There is pretty much no chance that their risking their entire reputation to save a few tens of thousands of money. That's like accusing Bill gates of making fake software in order to make a few grand. There's no way they'd risk there entire company to save a few thousand dollars. well its maybe not a perfect comparison because the bets were actually voided and the money was returned but you get the idea. the way the line moved was clearly fishy to anyone who has experience with these things. and people kept putting money on dark despite the absurd odds he ended up getting.
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
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