On November 09 2014 10:29 Meavis wrote: most of the cyclone's problems would be solved by reducing the leash range so there is more room for counter micro, stepping in and outside of leash range etc.
There's plenty of counter-micro. Forcefields box them in so they can't kite. Roaches can burrow and remove the lock-on so they have to come back and retarget another one, rinse and repeat. New Warp Prisms can pick up locked units from a safe range. Stalkers have blink. Infestors have Fungal. Phoenixes, Mutas, speedroaches on creep, hellions, stimmed bio can outrun them.
Just nerf their DPS so players actually have TIME to react properly and the unit won't be such an issue.
It locks on a target and then moves away from it without having to stop, which means it hardcounters anything that is slower/less range than it. Which are a lot of units, given that the cyclone looked faster than the default 2.25 and has 6range with a 9range upgrade. And a massive leash range in which it will keep firing, even if you try to run away.
E.g. the cyclone locks on a unit, you turn that unit around and run away and even if the cyclone would be put on hold position it would still shoot you for another 2-3seconds which with its current stats makes to about 90damage.
People were whining about the Colossus being a mobile siege weapon. The Cyclone is a mobile siege weapon that can kite with little effort and has no weakness to air units. There is currently no countermicro against it, you just have the hardcounters to it, or you don't.
The question is - do you like the CONCEPT, not the numbers ?
To be honest, no. It doesn't look like something that is needed in any way.
Thats the biggest thing. It's a ranged units with tons of DPS - something Terran already has quite enough of.
Yeah exactly. It overlaps a LOT.
But it does one thing very well and what I really like: Zoning. one of these guys outside of your base zones you in. there wasnt enough zoning in sc2 imo. So I like they add that in.
Mines. Tanks. PDD. Nukes. Terran needs more zoning tools? M'kay...
who doesnt understand English now? I said not enough zoning in sc2, not for terran.
Then that's stupid, don't give zoning tools to the race that already has some.
I like the concept of the cyclone. Its a unit on factory that can harass to some extent. Atleast kill static defence. It can poke enemy units. It can fight enemy units.
Lings might hardcounter it but i hope ling only counter it. So we may see 2v2 battle, cyclone+herc vs ling/roach etc. I just hope the price isnt big as hell on it and that ofcourse protoss has good tools against it.
I loved that it was a unit to make early and already it threatens stuff, it forced units from the opponent or atleast defence. It interacts very early and it already kinda creates the macrowar immediately. Since cyclone will get aided by herc and then more raxes or factories can be added on 2base and the other racen eeds to react and i rly hope and think that it will not be enough with pure queen defence or pure mscore into high tech for protoss but they do need to react with macro out units.
Interactions like these are so much fun, hope they really try and imrpove upon this in their design room.
There are also plenty of opportunites to look at Roach. Hydralisk. Even Zergling. Baneling for zerg. Maybe roach burrow can work or have more effeciency with micro against cyclone.
On November 09 2014 10:34 Foxxan wrote: I like the concept of the cyclone. Its a unit on factory that can harass to some extent. Atleast kill static defence. It can poke enemy units. It can fight enemy units.
So you like a unit that can kinda do everythin except fly?
The Cyclone is a cool unit if you look at it, but it just appears too strong and has to have some kind of drawback to make it a well-designed unit. Right now it's just another ranged DPS unit that terran can build to throw at his enemy, just like the marine, marauder, hellions etc.
Agreed. It is a general rule in RTS that a strength of a unit has to be divided in several aspects: Cost, HP, speed, DPS, burst, range, ... . So far the cyclone has no visible drawback in these areas. It just gets countered by specific units.
So did the Warhound - did it not - and YET every Terran raged when it was removed from the game rather than having it tweaked/revamped
No offense - I LIKE that it's not another stutter step unit for the Terran TBH, far better than anything else could've been added
Well - perhaps if the unit was a disabler rather than a DPS-er would've liked it even better - i.e. - instead of damaging the locked target - it would keep it stunned as long as shooting at it instead
But yah - those "no drawback" statement is the same as the Warhound, and yet for some weird reason the Terrans liked that a-move unit and don't like a lock & forget ?
Agreed. It is a general rule in RTS that a strength of a unit has to be divided in several aspects: Cost, HP, speed, DPS, burst, range, ... . So far the cyclone has no visible drawback in these areas. It just gets countered by specific units.
So did the Warhound - did it not - and YET every Terran raged when it was removed from the game rather than having it tweaked/revamped
No offense - I LIKE that it's not another stutter step unit for the Terran TBH, far better than anything else could've been added
Well - perhaps if the unit was a disabler rather than a DPS-er would've liked it even better - i.e. - instead of damaging the locked target - it would keep it stunned as long as shooting at it instead
But yah - those "no drawback" statement is the same as the Warhound, and yet for some weird reason the Terrans liked that a-move unit and don't like a lock & forget ?
On November 09 2014 10:38 Foxxan wrote: Yes exactly. It might not be very strong versus air for example. Might lose versus blink stalkers, zerglings or roaches that come close.
What factory need is a strong unit with mobility. Or else mech will be terrible boring.
There's the hellion already. Now matter how you look at it, if it's a) ranged and b) a high DPS unit
Terran probably already has something that does the same.
Agreed. It is a general rule in RTS that a strength of a unit has to be divided in several aspects: Cost, HP, speed, DPS, burst, range, ... . So far the cyclone has no visible drawback in these areas. It just gets countered by specific units.
So did the Warhound - did it not - and YET every Terran raged when it was removed from the game rather than having it tweaked/revamped
No offense - I LIKE that it's not another stutter step unit for the Terran TBH, far better than anything else could've been added
Well - perhaps if the unit was a disabler rather than a DPS-er would've liked it even better - i.e. - instead of damaging the locked target - it would keep it stunned as long as shooting at it instead
But yah - those "no drawback" statement is the same as the Warhound, and yet for some weird reason the Terrans liked that a-move unit and don't like a lock & forget ?
Who the hell liked the warhound ?
Every Terran player who wanted to mech to be frank :D
On November 09 2014 10:38 Foxxan wrote: Yes exactly. It might not be very strong versus air for example. Might lose versus blink stalkers, zerglings or roaches that come close.
What factory need is a strong unit with mobility. Or else mech will be terrible boring.
There's the hellion already.
I wouldn't exactly call hellions strong. They're made of paper, and stay paper until the armory's built. The cyclone ideally serves as a factory marine.
There's plenty of counter-micro. Forcefields box them in so they can't kite.
No way this is actual practical in 99% of situations.
Roaches can burrow and remove the lock-on so they have to come back and retarget another one, rinse and repeat.
If burrow was available at the time terran could get Cyclones out, this would be ok. Unfortunately, burrow comes way later.
New Warp Prisms can pick up locked units from a safe range. Stalkers have blink. Infestors have Fungal. Phoenixes, Mutas, speedroaches on creep
Same story. Most of this stuff here really comes too late. I will be willing to reevaluate my opinion the Cyclone ifs stats are tweaked in such a way that the enemey - regarldess of composition - has a chance to it. Sure there should be a reward to getting Speedlings instead of Roaches vs it, but there should be a period of like 5 minutes where 2 Cyclones can get like 60 kills.
On November 09 2014 10:38 Foxxan wrote: Yes exactly. It might not be very strong versus air for example. Might lose versus blink stalkers, zerglings or roaches that come close.
What factory need is a strong unit with mobility. Or else mech will be terrible boring.
There's the hellion already.
I wouldn't exactly call hellions strong. They're made of paper, and stay paper until the armory's built. The cyclone ideally serves as a factory marine.
Does Mech really need that though? Hellbats are sick good if used right, mines are powerful as well... Is the "Mech Marine" really what terran needs?
Agreed. It is a general rule in RTS that a strength of a unit has to be divided in several aspects: Cost, HP, speed, DPS, burst, range, ... . So far the cyclone has no visible drawback in these areas. It just gets countered by specific units.
So did the Warhound - did it not - and YET every Terran raged when it was removed from the game rather than having it tweaked/revamped
No offense - I LIKE that it's not another stutter step unit for the Terran TBH, far better than anything else could've been added
Well - perhaps if the unit was a disabler rather than a DPS-er would've liked it even better - i.e. - instead of damaging the locked target - it would keep it stunned as long as shooting at it instead
But yah - those "no drawback" statement is the same as the Warhound, and yet for some weird reason the Terrans liked that a-move unit and don't like a lock & forget ?
Who the hell liked the warhound ?
Every Terran player who wanted to mech to be frank :D
Making mech viable with an imbalanced unit coming out of the factory is not a solution at all. Buffs to banshee, changes to immortal, all those things point towards a far more clever way of making mech interesting.
On November 09 2014 10:38 Foxxan wrote: Yes exactly. It might not be very strong versus air for example. Might lose versus blink stalkers, zerglings or roaches that come close.
What factory need is a strong unit with mobility. Or else mech will be terrible boring.
There's the hellion already. Now matter how you look at it, if it's a) ranged and b) a high DPS unit
Terran probably already has something that does the same.
Hellion isn't high dps unit at all. It has high burst damage against light units, sure, but it doesn't have high dps.
Dragoons in BW had good speed, good range, good survivability, good damage, could hit air and ground, and yet got annihilated by speedlings and siege lines. Cyclone will be similar. It needs micro to be effective and micro to counter with the right units. I don't see the issue.
On November 09 2014 10:38 Foxxan wrote: Yes exactly. It might not be very strong versus air for example. Might lose versus blink stalkers, zerglings or roaches that come close.
What factory need is a strong unit with mobility. Or else mech will be terrible boring.
There's the hellion already. Now matter how you look at it, if it's a) ranged and b) a high DPS unit
Terran probably already has something that does the same.
Hellion isn't high dps unit at all. It has high burst damage against light units, sure, but it doesn't have high dps.
I'd argue that high burst/high DPS can be somewhat generalized in this case. If you count hellbats and hellions as the same thing, you can say that it is generally a unit with a lot of damage.
On November 09 2014 10:43 SmileZerg wrote: Dragoons in BW had good speed, good range, good survivability, good damage, could hit air and ground, and yet got annihilated by speedlings and siege lines. Cyclone will be similar. It needs micro to be effective and micro to counter with the right units. I don't see the issue.
Dragoons also had super shit pathing issues that made it harder to micro against speedlings; thats not a thing in SC2 though.
New Warp Prisms can pick up locked units from a safe range. Stalkers have blink. Infestors have Fungal. Phoenixes, Mutas, speedroaches on creep
Same story. Most of this stuff here really comes too late.
Ye true.
But how are we looking at this exactly? If lotv will get overhauled why cant stuff get changed to adapt? For example, maybe roaches will be able to burrow on creep. Maybe stalker can start with a weaker blink. What if a unit can remove the lock on? Maybe zealots can remove it with their charge or something.
Burrow are on tier 1 already without a change isnt it? Maybe iam wrong. But make normal burrow tier 1 and then burrowed units remove the lock on?
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cTVkbqS.jpg)
