On November 09 2014 10:57 Hider wrote: @ burrow counter micro potential: Still seems very problematic if Cyclone can attack into a Roach and then move back. The zerg player will still feel like he never has a chance to attack back and just burrows to "survive". I think that will feel similar to playing vs Swarm Host where your just running around trying to avoid taking damage from Locusts. I think its super important that a zerg player feels like he can kill the Cyclones if he micros well.
He should be able to if he makes Zerglings, Mutas, Vipers or Infestors. Just don't mass pure Roach. You can't beat Banshees with Roaches either no matter how well you micro.
There is a big difference. Banshee/Hellion actually has a solid interaction vs Speedling/Spore/queen. On the other hand, Hellin/cyclone vs speedling/roach doesn't seem particualrly interesting. Instead, it seems like terran will just want to kite infinitely if the range of the Cyclone isn't adjusted.
Moreover, Banshee's also come later, which gives the zerg player more time to react, and you can surive it with either Roaches or Speedlings. I am very sceptical of the that terran can go like double factory and mass hellion/Cyclone and straight up win if zerg hasn't reacted perfectly (compositionwise).
Just remove hellion... ^^ Or just make overseer tier1 but slower.
No but really, hellion has no real role in lotv if they stay as they are... They are really boring overall.
So how fast are cyclone atm? Speedroach runs at 3.
2.95. I think it would be ok if Cyclones were faster as this could allow more micropotential but in order to zone the target they would need to get into very close range and thus they will be vulnerable for a short while.
That's really just a hellion that can shoot up.
No. Not at all. First of all the Cyclone has a leash range which means that it can go up to a higher range if it keeps moving away. Secondly, it's better vs armored than the Hellion.
On November 09 2014 11:01 Drake wrote: protoss NEEDS a 2nd epic new unit, i want my god damn reaver or arbiter whatever
Neither would serve any purpose with the disruptor/colossus and mothership/oracle respectively. It'd be something new.
I wish the ancient zealots they showed at the campaign panel would be available in multiplayer, at least as a skin.
Blizzpls
Chances are quite good for us getting them. After all we got campaign Marines, Ultralisks and Zerglings. These Zealots would be much cooler than those that has their color changed.
On November 09 2014 11:01 Drake wrote: protoss NEEDS a 2nd epic new unit, i want my god damn reaver or arbiter whatever
Neither would serve any purpose with the disruptor/colossus and mothership/oracle respectively. It'd be something new.
I wish the ancient zealots they showed at the campaign panel would be available in multiplayer, at least as a skin.
Blizzpls
Chances are quite good for us getting them. After all we got campaign Marines, Ultralisks and Zerglings. These Zealots would be much cooler than those that has their color changed.
Please, please, please as many skins as you want, but the option to only see standard skins if you don't wish to have say lings with wings.
On November 09 2014 11:01 Drake wrote: protoss NEEDS a 2nd epic new unit, i want my god damn reaver or arbiter whatever
Neither would serve any purpose with the disruptor/colossus and mothership/oracle respectively. It'd be something new.
I wish the ancient zealots they showed at the campaign panel would be available in multiplayer, at least as a skin.
Blizzpls
Chances are quite good for us getting them. After all we got campaign Marines, Ultralisks and Zerglings. These Zealots would be much cooler than those that has their color changed.
Please, please, please as many skins as you want, but the option to only see standard skins if you want.
I want that too, some of the skins aren't appealing but Blizzard will probably disagree and their reasoning behind that is beyond stupid...
On November 09 2014 10:57 Hider wrote: @ burrow counter micro potential: Still seems very problematic if Cyclone can attack into a Roach and then move back. The zerg player will still feel like he never has a chance to attack back and just burrows to "survive". I think that will feel similar to playing vs Swarm Host where your just running around trying to avoid taking damage from Locusts. I think its super important that a zerg player feels like he can kill the Cyclones if he micros well.
He should be able to if he makes Zerglings, Mutas, Vipers or Infestors. Just don't mass pure Roach. You can't beat Banshees with Roaches either no matter how well you micro.
There is a big difference. Banshee/Hellion actually has a solid interaction vs Speedling/Spore/queen. On the other hand, Hellin/cyclone vs speedling/roach doesn't seem particualrly interesting. Instead, it seems like terran will just want to kite infinitely if the range of the Cyclone isn't adjusted.
Moreover, Banshee's also come later, which gives the zerg player more time to react, and you can surive it with either Roaches or Speedlings. I am very sceptical of the that terran can go like double factory and mass hellion/Cyclone and straight up win if zerg hasn't reacted perfectly (compositionwise).
Just remove hellion... ^^ Or just make overseer tier1 but slower.
No but really, hellion has no real role in lotv if they stay as they are... They are really boring overall.
So Herz is not a unit that can deal with light units very well. At least if we watch the video we see that Zealots are supposed to counter them if well positioned. And on top of that, it's also produced from a barrack. Therefore Hellion still has a clear role.
I am more curious about the Reaper, which seems a bit inferior to the Herz.
On November 09 2014 10:57 Hider wrote: @ burrow counter micro potential: Still seems very problematic if Cyclone can attack into a Roach and then move back. The zerg player will still feel like he never has a chance to attack back and just burrows to "survive". I think that will feel similar to playing vs Swarm Host where your just running around trying to avoid taking damage from Locusts. I think its super important that a zerg player feels like he can kill the Cyclones if he micros well.
He should be able to if he makes Zerglings, Mutas, Vipers or Infestors. Just don't mass pure Roach. You can't beat Banshees with Roaches either no matter how well you micro.
There is a big difference. Banshee/Hellion actually has a solid interaction vs Speedling/Spore/queen. On the other hand, Hellin/cyclone vs speedling/roach doesn't seem particualrly interesting. Instead, it seems like terran will just want to kite infinitely if the range of the Cyclone isn't adjusted.
Moreover, Banshee's also come later, which gives the zerg player more time to react, and you can surive it with either Roaches or Speedlings. I am very sceptical of the that terran can go like double factory and mass hellion/Cyclone and straight up win if zerg hasn't reacted perfectly (compositionwise).
Just remove hellion... ^^ Or just make overseer tier1 but slower.
No but really, hellion has no real role in lotv if they stay as they are... They are really boring overall.
So Herz is not a unit that can deal with light units very well. At least if we watch the video we see that Zealots are supposed to counter them if well positioned. And on top of that, it's also produced from a barrack. Therefore Hellion still has a clear role.
I am more curious about the Reaper, which seems a bit inferior to the Herz.
Reapers have range and regen, HERCs don't. They both work as raiding units, but differently.
On November 09 2014 10:57 Hider wrote: @ burrow counter micro potential: Still seems very problematic if Cyclone can attack into a Roach and then move back. The zerg player will still feel like he never has a chance to attack back and just burrows to "survive". I think that will feel similar to playing vs Swarm Host where your just running around trying to avoid taking damage from Locusts. I think its super important that a zerg player feels like he can kill the Cyclones if he micros well.
He should be able to if he makes Zerglings, Mutas, Vipers or Infestors. Just don't mass pure Roach. You can't beat Banshees with Roaches either no matter how well you micro.
There is a big difference. Banshee/Hellion actually has a solid interaction vs Speedling/Spore/queen. On the other hand, Hellin/cyclone vs speedling/roach doesn't seem particualrly interesting. Instead, it seems like terran will just want to kite infinitely if the range of the Cyclone isn't adjusted.
Moreover, Banshee's also come later, which gives the zerg player more time to react, and you can surive it with either Roaches or Speedlings. I am very sceptical of the that terran can go like double factory and mass hellion/Cyclone and straight up win if zerg hasn't reacted perfectly (compositionwise).
Just remove hellion... ^^ Or just make overseer tier1 but slower.
No but really, hellion has no real role in lotv if they stay as they are... They are really boring overall.
So Herz is not a unit that can deal with light units very well. At least if we watch the video we see that Zealots are supposed to counter them if well positioned. And on top of that, it's also produced from a barrack. Therefore Hellion still has a clear role.
I am more curious about the Reaper, which seems a bit inferior to the Herz.
Reapers have range and regen, HERCs don't. They both work as raiding units, but differently.
Thanks, I didn't know that.
Point is that Reapers have a pretty niche role right now where it only is viable in the very early game, and if the Herc can do that just as well, and it also has more utility in mid/late game, then it is starting to feel like an overflood of overlapping units.
I realy like the hook-aspect actually as it seems to be an ability that has lots of creative micro potential.
On November 09 2014 10:57 Hider wrote: @ burrow counter micro potential: Still seems very problematic if Cyclone can attack into a Roach and then move back. The zerg player will still feel like he never has a chance to attack back and just burrows to "survive". I think that will feel similar to playing vs Swarm Host where your just running around trying to avoid taking damage from Locusts. I think its super important that a zerg player feels like he can kill the Cyclones if he micros well.
He should be able to if he makes Zerglings, Mutas, Vipers or Infestors. Just don't mass pure Roach. You can't beat Banshees with Roaches either no matter how well you micro.
There is a big difference. Banshee/Hellion actually has a solid interaction vs Speedling/Spore/queen. On the other hand, Hellin/cyclone vs speedling/roach doesn't seem particualrly interesting. Instead, it seems like terran will just want to kite infinitely if the range of the Cyclone isn't adjusted.
Moreover, Banshee's also come later, which gives the zerg player more time to react, and you can surive it with either Roaches or Speedlings. I am very sceptical of the that terran can go like double factory and mass hellion/Cyclone and straight up win if zerg hasn't reacted perfectly (compositionwise).
Just remove hellion... ^^ Or just make overseer tier1 but slower.
No but really, hellion has no real role in lotv if they stay as they are... They are really boring overall.
So Herz is not a unit that can deal with light units very well. At least if we watch the video we see that Zealots are supposed to counter them if well positioned. And on top of that, it's also produced from a barrack. Therefore Hellion still has a clear role.
I am more curious about the Reaper, which seems a bit inferior to the Herz.
Reapers have range and regen, HERCs don't. They both work as raiding units, but differently.
Thanks, I didn't know that.
Point is that Reapers have a pretty niche role right now where it only is viable in the very early game, and if the Herc can do that just as well, and it also has more utility in mid/late game, then it is starting to feel like an overflood of overlapping units.
I realy like the hook-aspect actually as it seems to be an ability that has lots of creative micro potential.
Actually, I think that Hercs are going to replace Hellions in some of the strategies, not Reapers. There are some early game pushes(that died out mostly) with 2-3 Reapers and 4-6 Hellions, but they are used mostly for taking a map control and stopping creep spread, but with Hercs you can actually harass the main base(on most maps). You only need Reaper to be up there and you can hook up to him, and they can deal quite a lot of splash damage(even though the AoE is small) and have really solid HP.
We will see, but I am definitely a lot more interested in them than in Cyclones.
On November 09 2014 10:57 Hider wrote: @ burrow counter micro potential: Still seems very problematic if Cyclone can attack into a Roach and then move back. The zerg player will still feel like he never has a chance to attack back and just burrows to "survive". I think that will feel similar to playing vs Swarm Host where your just running around trying to avoid taking damage from Locusts. I think its super important that a zerg player feels like he can kill the Cyclones if he micros well.
He should be able to if he makes Zerglings, Mutas, Vipers or Infestors. Just don't mass pure Roach. You can't beat Banshees with Roaches either no matter how well you micro.
There is a big difference. Banshee/Hellion actually has a solid interaction vs Speedling/Spore/queen. On the other hand, Hellin/cyclone vs speedling/roach doesn't seem particualrly interesting. Instead, it seems like terran will just want to kite infinitely if the range of the Cyclone isn't adjusted.
Moreover, Banshee's also come later, which gives the zerg player more time to react, and you can surive it with either Roaches or Speedlings. I am very sceptical of the that terran can go like double factory and mass hellion/Cyclone and straight up win if zerg hasn't reacted perfectly (compositionwise).
Just remove hellion... ^^ Or just make overseer tier1 but slower.
No but really, hellion has no real role in lotv if they stay as they are... They are really boring overall.
So Herz is not a unit that can deal with light units very well. At least if we watch the video we see that Zealots are supposed to counter them if well positioned. And on top of that, it's also produced from a barrack. Therefore Hellion still has a clear role.
I am more curious about the Reaper, which seems a bit inferior to the Herz.
Reapers have range and regen, HERCs don't. They both work as raiding units, but differently.
Thanks, I didn't know that.
Point is that Reapers have a pretty niche role right now where it only is viable in the very early game, and if the Herc can do that just as well, and it also has more utility in mid/late game, then it is starting to feel like an overflood of overlapping units.
I realy like the hook-aspect actually as it seems to be an ability that has lots of creative micro potential.
Actually, I think that Hercs are going to replace Hellions in some of the strategies, not Reapers. There are some early game pushes(that died out mostly) with 2-3 Reapers and 4-6 Hellions, but they are used mostly for taking a map control and stopping creep spread, but with Hercs you can actually harass the main base(on most maps). You only need Reaper to be up there and you can hook up to him, and they can deal quite a lot of splash damage(even though the AoE is small) and have really solid HP.
We will see, but I am definitely a lot more interested in them than in Cyclones.
Hercs look pretty cool. Can definitely see lots of micro interactions with them hooking around, e.g. onto units that on a-move would be good against them (roaches) or get killed by units that they were actually supposed to counter (banelings) or to flank hydralisks or to get on top of lurkers and make them shoot in weird directions while the rest of the army engages and so on.
There are some early game pushes(that died out mostly) with 2-3 Reapers and 4-6 Hellions, but they are used mostly for taking a map control and stopping creep spread, but with Hercs you can actually harass the main base(on most maps). You only need Reaper to be up there and you can hook up to him, and they can deal quite a lot of splash damage(even though the AoE is small) and have really solid HP.
I think Hercs can replace hellion in early game in some situation, but Hellion has a lot more overall utility than the Reaper, and thus it can afford to lose utility and still have a role, while the Reaper cannot.
If your going to mech, you will still mix in Hellions and Siege Tanks. Hercs cannot replace the Hellion here.
On November 09 2014 10:57 Hider wrote: @ burrow counter micro potential: Still seems very problematic if Cyclone can attack into a Roach and then move back. The zerg player will still feel like he never has a chance to attack back and just burrows to "survive". I think that will feel similar to playing vs Swarm Host where your just running around trying to avoid taking damage from Locusts. I think its super important that a zerg player feels like he can kill the Cyclones if he micros well.
He should be able to if he makes Zerglings, Mutas, Vipers or Infestors. Just don't mass pure Roach. You can't beat Banshees with Roaches either no matter how well you micro.
There is a big difference. Banshee/Hellion actually has a solid interaction vs Speedling/Spore/queen. On the other hand, Hellin/cyclone vs speedling/roach doesn't seem particualrly interesting. Instead, it seems like terran will just want to kite infinitely if the range of the Cyclone isn't adjusted.
Moreover, Banshee's also come later, which gives the zerg player more time to react, and you can surive it with either Roaches or Speedlings. I am very sceptical of the that terran can go like double factory and mass hellion/Cyclone and straight up win if zerg hasn't reacted perfectly (compositionwise).
Just remove hellion... ^^ Or just make overseer tier1 but slower.
No but really, hellion has no real role in lotv if they stay as they are... They are really boring overall.
So Herz is not a unit that can deal with light units very well. At least if we watch the video we see that Zealots are supposed to counter them if well positioned. And on top of that, it's also produced from a barrack. Therefore Hellion still has a clear role.
I am more curious about the Reaper, which seems a bit inferior to the Herz.
Reapers have range and regen, HERCs don't. They both work as raiding units, but differently.
Thanks, I didn't know that.
Point is that Reapers have a pretty niche role right now where it only is viable in the very early game, and if the Herc can do that just as well, and it also has more utility in mid/late game, then it is starting to feel like an overflood of overlapping units.
I realy like the hook-aspect actually as it seems to be an ability that has lots of creative micro potential.
Actually, I think that Hercs are going to replace Hellions in some of the strategies, not Reapers. There are some early game pushes(that died out mostly) with 2-3 Reapers and 4-6 Hellions, but they are used mostly for taking a map control and stopping creep spread, but with Hercs you can actually harass the main base(on most maps). You only need Reaper to be up there and you can hook up to him, and they can deal quite a lot of splash damage(even though the AoE is small) and have really solid HP.
We will see, but I am definitely a lot more interested in them than in Cyclones.
Hercs look pretty cool. Can definitely see lots of micro interactions with them hooking around, e.g. onto units that on a-move would be good against them (roaches) or get killed by units that they were actually supposed to counter (banelings) or to flank hydralisks or to get on top of lurkers and make them shoot in weird directions while the rest of the army engages and so on.
What I look forward the most is herc + reaper squad with reaper jumping up a cliff and herc grappling the reaper to join him ^^
On November 09 2014 10:57 Hider wrote: @ burrow counter micro potential: Still seems very problematic if Cyclone can attack into a Roach and then move back. The zerg player will still feel like he never has a chance to attack back and just burrows to "survive". I think that will feel similar to playing vs Swarm Host where your just running around trying to avoid taking damage from Locusts. I think its super important that a zerg player feels like he can kill the Cyclones if he micros well.
He should be able to if he makes Zerglings, Mutas, Vipers or Infestors. Just don't mass pure Roach. You can't beat Banshees with Roaches either no matter how well you micro.
There is a big difference. Banshee/Hellion actually has a solid interaction vs Speedling/Spore/queen. On the other hand, Hellin/cyclone vs speedling/roach doesn't seem particualrly interesting. Instead, it seems like terran will just want to kite infinitely if the range of the Cyclone isn't adjusted.
Moreover, Banshee's also come later, which gives the zerg player more time to react, and you can surive it with either Roaches or Speedlings. I am very sceptical of the that terran can go like double factory and mass hellion/Cyclone and straight up win if zerg hasn't reacted perfectly (compositionwise).
Just remove hellion... ^^ Or just make overseer tier1 but slower.
No but really, hellion has no real role in lotv if they stay as they are... They are really boring overall.
So Herz is not a unit that can deal with light units very well. At least if we watch the video we see that Zealots are supposed to counter them if well positioned. And on top of that, it's also produced from a barrack. Therefore Hellion still has a clear role.
I am more curious about the Reaper, which seems a bit inferior to the Herz.
Reapers have range and regen, HERCs don't. They both work as raiding units, but differently.
Thanks, I didn't know that.
Point is that Reapers have a pretty niche role right now where it only is viable in the very early game, and if the Herc can do that just as well, and it also has more utility in mid/late game, then it is starting to feel like an overflood of overlapping units.
I realy like the hook-aspect actually as it seems to be an ability that has lots of creative micro potential.
Actually, I think that Hercs are going to replace Hellions in some of the strategies, not Reapers. There are some early game pushes(that died out mostly) with 2-3 Reapers and 4-6 Hellions, but they are used mostly for taking a map control and stopping creep spread, but with Hercs you can actually harass the main base(on most maps). You only need Reaper to be up there and you can hook up to him, and they can deal quite a lot of splash damage(even though the AoE is small) and have really solid HP.
We will see, but I am definitely a lot more interested in them than in Cyclones.
Hercs look pretty cool. Can definitely see lots of micro interactions with them hooking around, e.g. onto units that on a-move would be good against them (roaches) or get killed by units that they were actually supposed to counter (banelings) or to flank hydralisks or to get on top of lurkers and make them shoot in weird directions while the rest of the army engages and so on.
What I look forward the most is herc + reaper squad with reaper jumping up a cliff and herc grappling the reaper to join him ^^
Yeh that's a good point. Didn't think of that one. Definitely some synergy there.
But it would have been so much more awesome if Blizzard developers had just prerecorded a game and showed us some of the new interactions they have planned rather than watching pro's having no idea what they were doing.
There are some early game pushes(that died out mostly) with 2-3 Reapers and 4-6 Hellions, but they are used mostly for taking a map control and stopping creep spread, but with Hercs you can actually harass the main base(on most maps). You only need Reaper to be up there and you can hook up to him, and they can deal quite a lot of splash damage(even though the AoE is small) and have really solid HP.
I think Hercs can replace hellion in early game in some situation, but Hellion has a lot more overall utility than the Reaper, and thus it can afford to lose utility and still have a role, while the Reaper cannot.
Never mind, my mistake, I somehow thought that Hercs are coming out from Factory. Still, I think that 1 Reaper is enough, just so you can "transport" with grapple hook Hercs to the opponent's main base.
On November 09 2014 11:01 SmileZerg wrote: [quote] He should be able to if he makes Zerglings, Mutas, Vipers or Infestors. Just don't mass pure Roach. You can't beat Banshees with Roaches either no matter how well you micro.
There is a big difference. Banshee/Hellion actually has a solid interaction vs Speedling/Spore/queen. On the other hand, Hellin/cyclone vs speedling/roach doesn't seem particualrly interesting. Instead, it seems like terran will just want to kite infinitely if the range of the Cyclone isn't adjusted.
Moreover, Banshee's also come later, which gives the zerg player more time to react, and you can surive it with either Roaches or Speedlings. I am very sceptical of the that terran can go like double factory and mass hellion/Cyclone and straight up win if zerg hasn't reacted perfectly (compositionwise).
Just remove hellion... ^^ Or just make overseer tier1 but slower.
No but really, hellion has no real role in lotv if they stay as they are... They are really boring overall.
So Herz is not a unit that can deal with light units very well. At least if we watch the video we see that Zealots are supposed to counter them if well positioned. And on top of that, it's also produced from a barrack. Therefore Hellion still has a clear role.
I am more curious about the Reaper, which seems a bit inferior to the Herz.
Reapers have range and regen, HERCs don't. They both work as raiding units, but differently.
Thanks, I didn't know that.
Point is that Reapers have a pretty niche role right now where it only is viable in the very early game, and if the Herc can do that just as well, and it also has more utility in mid/late game, then it is starting to feel like an overflood of overlapping units.
I realy like the hook-aspect actually as it seems to be an ability that has lots of creative micro potential.
Actually, I think that Hercs are going to replace Hellions in some of the strategies, not Reapers. There are some early game pushes(that died out mostly) with 2-3 Reapers and 4-6 Hellions, but they are used mostly for taking a map control and stopping creep spread, but with Hercs you can actually harass the main base(on most maps). You only need Reaper to be up there and you can hook up to him, and they can deal quite a lot of splash damage(even though the AoE is small) and have really solid HP.
We will see, but I am definitely a lot more interested in them than in Cyclones.
Hercs look pretty cool. Can definitely see lots of micro interactions with them hooking around, e.g. onto units that on a-move would be good against them (roaches) or get killed by units that they were actually supposed to counter (banelings) or to flank hydralisks or to get on top of lurkers and make them shoot in weird directions while the rest of the army engages and so on.
What I look forward the most is herc + reaper squad with reaper jumping up a cliff and herc grappling the reaper to join him ^^
Yeh that's a good point. Didn't think of that one. Definitely some synergy there.
But it would have been so much more awesome if Blizzard developers had just prerecorded a game and showed us some of the new interactions they have planned rather than watching pro's having no idea what they were doing.
I was talking about that all this time and why you should combo Reapers with Hercs... ^^
On November 09 2014 10:43 SmileZerg wrote: Dragoons in BW had good speed, good range, good survivability, good damage, could hit air and ground, and yet got annihilated by speedlings and siege lines. Cyclone will be similar. It needs micro to be effective and micro to counter with the right units. I don't see the issue.
Dragoons also have burst damage. So that lends itself towards hold position micro- whether attack-retreating vs a marine, tank, vulture pressure or defusing mines. Cyclones have continuous fire which puts it in the same category of Collosus, Voidrays, and other units that do not lend themselves to interesting micro.
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/LotV/Campaign/newzealot.jpg)
EPT
