@ burrow counter micro potential: Still seems very problematic if Cyclone can attack into a Roach and then move back. The zerg player will still feel like he never has a chance to attack back and just burrows to "survive". I think that will feel similar to playing vs Swarm Host where your just running around trying to avoid taking damage from Locusts. I think its super important that a zerg player feels like he can kill the Cyclones if he micros well.
I would actually argue that it could be ineresting to have a much lower starting range on the Cyclone. Maybe a range of 3, and then upgrade should require armory so its super high range doesn't come into effect in the early game. If this makes it too weak, I would consider to compensate with an even higher movement speed so it's less hardcountered by speedlings. Like 3.25 movement speed and a "starting-attack" range of 3 seems pretty cool.
BUT, it should not counter the Lurker. That should be the role of the Siege Tank, I am however not exactly sure how I would make that work.
It locks on a target and then moves away from it without having to stop, which means it hardcounters anything that is slower/less range than it. Which are a lot of units, given that the cyclone looked faster than the default 2.25 and has 6range with a 9range upgrade. And a massive leash range in which it will keep firing, even if you try to run away.
E.g. the cyclone locks on a unit, you turn that unit around and run away and even if the cyclone would be put on hold position it would still shoot you for another 2-3seconds which with its current stats makes to about 90damage.
People were whining about the Colossus being a mobile siege weapon. The Cyclone is a mobile siege weapon that can kite with little effort and has no weakness to air units. There is currently no countermicro against it, you just have the hardcounters to it, or you don't.
The question is - do you like the CONCEPT, not the numbers ?
To be honest, no. It doesn't look like something that is needed in any way.
Thats the biggest thing. It's a ranged units with tons of DPS - something Terran already has quite enough of.
Yeah exactly. It overlaps a LOT.
But it does one thing very well and what I really like: Zoning. one of these guys outside of your base zones you in. there wasnt enough zoning in sc2 imo. So I like they add that in.
Mines. Tanks. PDD. Nukes. Terran needs more zoning tools? M'kay...
who doesnt understand English now? I said not enough zoning in sc2, not for terran.
So not only are you bad at English, you're also bad at understanding context.
The Cyclone is a Terran unit so I listed other Terran units that fill the same role. Maybe the other races do need more zoning, but if that's the case then why give the Cyclone to Terran and not one of the other races?
Lol...
Like you I edit my posts. dont worry you dont have to go back and read it, since this discussion has become pointless. I get it you like HOTS and think it is great and everything... I just hope it rotts and that everyone forgets the probably darkest era of rts history. the drawn out long swarmhost games vs swarmhost games, lame collossi tempests and the stupid hellbat drop... everything has been a mess to try to balance units that are a mess to begin with. even now in wcs we get games that are drawn out so incredibly long. you love that, I hate it. now we dont need to quote each other anymore.
On November 09 2014 10:57 Hider wrote: @ burrow counter micro potential: Still seems very problematic if Cyclone can attack into a Roach and then move back. The zerg player will still feel like he never has a chance to attack back and just burrows to "survive". I think that will feel similar to playing vs Swarm Host where your just running around trying to avoid taking damage from Locusts. I think its super important that a zerg player feels like he can kill the Cyclones if he micros well.
He should be able to if he makes Zerglings, Mutas, Vipers or Infestors. Just don't mass pure Roach. You can't beat Banshees with Roaches either no matter how well you micro.
Please give is micro and prolonged battles like this ... But at least they say they wanna focus on it. Just sad they dont wanna look at deeper things then trying to do it with MORE fancy units and not changing the basic flaws in the engine...
On November 09 2014 10:57 Hider wrote: @ burrow counter micro potential: Still seems very problematic if Cyclone can attack into a Roach and then move back. The zerg player will still feel like he never has a chance to attack back and just burrows to "survive". I think that will feel similar to playing vs Swarm Host where your just running around trying to avoid taking damage from Locusts. I think its super important that a zerg player feels like he can kill the Cyclones if he micros well.
He should be able to if he makes Zerglings, Mutas, Vipers or Infestors. Just don't mass pure Roach. You can't beat Banshees with Roaches either no matter how well you micro.
There is a big difference. Banshee/Hellion actually has a solid interaction vs Speedling/Spore/queen. On the other hand, Hellin/cyclone vs speedling/roach doesn't seem particualrly interesting. Instead, it seems like terran will just want to kite infinitely if the range of the Cyclone isn't adjusted.
Moreover, Banshee's also come later, which gives the zerg player more time to react, and you can surive it with either Roaches or Speedlings. I am very sceptical of the that terran can go like double factory and mass hellion/Cyclone and straight up win if zerg hasn't reacted perfectly (compositionwise).
On November 09 2014 09:15 SatedSC2 wrote: [quote] Why should I be happy about radical changes if I like the game the way it is..?
There is very little I dislike about the game right now, and certainly nothing that needs a massive overhaul.
Community has been crying for a massive change on alot of areas of the game for years now. Nothing stops you from continuing to play HOTS.
You work on Starbow. Your bias is showing. Massively overstating the "outcry".
So you want to say that there havent been any complaints about HOTS? Thats laughable.
No.
I want to say that you're overstating them. Which is what I wrote.
Do you even understand English?
Perhaps its only the nostalgia talk from you. If you like HOTS so much continue playing it. Let the rest play what they want. And yes you should be happy because you can still continue to play HOTS if you dont like change.
It's not just about playing the game. I also really enjoy watching the game. It's pretty clear that the pro-scene will move on to LotV when it comes out and so telling me that I can still play HotS is very silly.
So no I am not happy. I think the current announced changes and units are a travesty.
The only thing we can say to you then is, we're sorry, the game is changing, you can see the bright side and try to give it a chance or be bitter about it and simply stop playing, thats up to you, but I think it would be really bad that you stop playing a game you love just because you aren't open to change
I'd also stop playing football if they changed the ball to a rugby ball. That's how bad I think these changes are. No joke.
It's not about being open to change. I expect the game to change with an expansion. What I do not expect is for them to rip out the spine of the game.
I saw a tvp LotV today: the first 3 minutes were different. The rest was MMM+vikings vs collossiball. So what do you understand as spine of the game?
On November 09 2014 09:17 404AlphaSquad wrote: [quote] Community has been crying for a massive change on alot of areas of the game for years now. Nothing stops you from continuing to play HOTS.
You work on Starbow. Your bias is showing. Massively overstating the "outcry".
So you want to say that there havent been any complaints about HOTS? Thats laughable.
No.
I want to say that you're overstating them. Which is what I wrote.
Do you even understand English?
Perhaps its only the nostalgia talk from you. If you like HOTS so much continue playing it. Let the rest play what they want. And yes you should be happy because you can still continue to play HOTS if you dont like change.
It's not just about playing the game. I also really enjoy watching the game. It's pretty clear that the pro-scene will move on to LotV when it comes out and so telling me that I can still play HotS is very silly.
So no I am not happy. I think the current announced changes and units are a travesty.
The only thing we can say to you then is, we're sorry, the game is changing, you can see the bright side and try to give it a chance or be bitter about it and simply stop playing, thats up to you, but I think it would be really bad that you stop playing a game you love just because you aren't open to change
I'd also stop playing football if they changed the ball to a rugby ball. That's how bad I think these changes are. No joke.
It's not about being open to change. I expect the game to change with an expansion. What I do not expect is for them to rip out the spine of the game.
I saw a tvp LotV today: the first 3 minutes were different. The rest was MMM+vikings vs collossiball. So what do you understand as spine of the game?
Where can we see LotV games!?!?
The 2v2 exhibition matches. Those were underwhelming though, they actually played pretty bad.
So how fast are cyclone atm? Speedroach runs at 3. Burrowspeed burst, how fast is that? Is it faster than 3 or lower?
Tweaking their starting range before they lock is doable. Making it an upgrade later on is doable as have been pointed out.
But early on even on "live lotv", upgrade early burrow and roaches can defend already versus it. But who cares about live lotv anyway.
Lets say the burrow movement gets changed for roach so it runs at around 3.2 but the drawback here is, the roach needs to choose where he wants to burrow and then its impossible to stop that.
So to give an example so it might be easier to understand: You have 1 roach in your main. You press the burrow for roach and now you need to press where you want to move while burrowed. So you press to your natural and the roach now walks there while burrowed and when he is there he unburrows.
Might be shit or not but might be fun vs cyclone and this would make it possible to actually battle cyclones..I mean do dmg vs them.
When using this burrow i think it would be cool if you actually saw where the roach moved.
On November 09 2014 09:17 404AlphaSquad wrote: [quote] Community has been crying for a massive change on alot of areas of the game for years now. Nothing stops you from continuing to play HOTS.
You work on Starbow. Your bias is showing. Massively overstating the "outcry".
So you want to say that there havent been any complaints about HOTS? Thats laughable.
No.
I want to say that you're overstating them. Which is what I wrote.
Do you even understand English?
Perhaps its only the nostalgia talk from you. If you like HOTS so much continue playing it. Let the rest play what they want. And yes you should be happy because you can still continue to play HOTS if you dont like change.
It's not just about playing the game. I also really enjoy watching the game. It's pretty clear that the pro-scene will move on to LotV when it comes out and so telling me that I can still play HotS is very silly.
So no I am not happy. I think the current announced changes and units are a travesty.
The only thing we can say to you then is, we're sorry, the game is changing, you can see the bright side and try to give it a chance or be bitter about it and simply stop playing, thats up to you, but I think it would be really bad that you stop playing a game you love just because you aren't open to change
I'd also stop playing football if they changed the ball to a rugby ball. That's how bad I think these changes are. No joke.
It's not about being open to change. I expect the game to change with an expansion. What I do not expect is for them to rip out the spine of the game.
I saw a tvp LotV today: the first 3 minutes were different. The rest was MMM+vikings vs collossiball. So what do you understand as spine of the game?
Where can we see LotV games!?!?
We just saw archon mode games and most of them were terrible. They're in this thread, and can be found on Youtube.
On November 09 2014 09:17 404AlphaSquad wrote: [quote] Community has been crying for a massive change on alot of areas of the game for years now. Nothing stops you from continuing to play HOTS.
You work on Starbow. Your bias is showing. Massively overstating the "outcry".
So you want to say that there havent been any complaints about HOTS? Thats laughable.
No.
I want to say that you're overstating them. Which is what I wrote.
Do you even understand English?
Perhaps its only the nostalgia talk from you. If you like HOTS so much continue playing it. Let the rest play what they want. And yes you should be happy because you can still continue to play HOTS if you dont like change.
It's not just about playing the game. I also really enjoy watching the game. It's pretty clear that the pro-scene will move on to LotV when it comes out and so telling me that I can still play HotS is very silly.
So no I am not happy. I think the current announced changes and units are a travesty.
The only thing we can say to you then is, we're sorry, the game is changing, you can see the bright side and try to give it a chance or be bitter about it and simply stop playing, thats up to you, but I think it would be really bad that you stop playing a game you love just because you aren't open to change
I'd also stop playing football if they changed the ball to a rugby ball. That's how bad I think these changes are. No joke.
It's not about being open to change. I expect the game to change with an expansion. What I do not expect is for them to rip out the spine of the game.
I saw a tvp LotV today: the first 3 minutes were different. The rest was MMM+vikings vs collossiball. So what do you understand as spine of the game?
Scroll down a little bit, those MC + Hyun vs. Polt + SoO are LOTV games. The best game so far(JD + Zest vs. Polt + SoO) is missing from the channel though, but you can search on youtube for it.
On November 09 2014 09:21 SatedSC2 wrote: [quote] You work on Starbow. Your bias is showing. Massively overstating the "outcry".
So you want to say that there havent been any complaints about HOTS? Thats laughable.
No.
I want to say that you're overstating them. Which is what I wrote.
Do you even understand English?
Perhaps its only the nostalgia talk from you. If you like HOTS so much continue playing it. Let the rest play what they want. And yes you should be happy because you can still continue to play HOTS if you dont like change.
It's not just about playing the game. I also really enjoy watching the game. It's pretty clear that the pro-scene will move on to LotV when it comes out and so telling me that I can still play HotS is very silly.
So no I am not happy. I think the current announced changes and units are a travesty.
The only thing we can say to you then is, we're sorry, the game is changing, you can see the bright side and try to give it a chance or be bitter about it and simply stop playing, thats up to you, but I think it would be really bad that you stop playing a game you love just because you aren't open to change
I'd also stop playing football if they changed the ball to a rugby ball. That's how bad I think these changes are. No joke.
It's not about being open to change. I expect the game to change with an expansion. What I do not expect is for them to rip out the spine of the game.
I saw a tvp LotV today: the first 3 minutes were different. The rest was MMM+vikings vs collossiball. So what do you understand as spine of the game?
Where can we see LotV games!?!?
The 2v2 exhibition matches. Those were underwhelming though, they actually played pretty bad.
There was a TvP? I only saw a ZvT and ZvP where in both Zerg got rekt. Where can I watch the TvP?
On November 09 2014 09:23 404AlphaSquad wrote: [quote]
So you want to say that there havent been any complaints about HOTS? Thats laughable.
No.
I want to say that you're overstating them. Which is what I wrote.
Do you even understand English?
Perhaps its only the nostalgia talk from you. If you like HOTS so much continue playing it. Let the rest play what they want. And yes you should be happy because you can still continue to play HOTS if you dont like change.
It's not just about playing the game. I also really enjoy watching the game. It's pretty clear that the pro-scene will move on to LotV when it comes out and so telling me that I can still play HotS is very silly.
So no I am not happy. I think the current announced changes and units are a travesty.
The only thing we can say to you then is, we're sorry, the game is changing, you can see the bright side and try to give it a chance or be bitter about it and simply stop playing, thats up to you, but I think it would be really bad that you stop playing a game you love just because you aren't open to change
I'd also stop playing football if they changed the ball to a rugby ball. That's how bad I think these changes are. No joke.
It's not about being open to change. I expect the game to change with an expansion. What I do not expect is for them to rip out the spine of the game.
I saw a tvp LotV today: the first 3 minutes were different. The rest was MMM+vikings vs collossiball. So what do you understand as spine of the game?
Where can we see LotV games!?!?
The 2v2 exhibition matches. Those were underwhelming though, they actually played pretty bad.
There was a TvP? I only saw a ZvT and ZvP where in both Zerg got rekt. Where can I watch the TvP?
It's from today, should be somewhere in this thread. I only saw it on the blizz stream.
So how fast are cyclone atm? Speedroach runs at 3.
2.95. I think it would be ok if Cyclones were faster, but in order to zone the target they would need to get into very close range and thus they will be vulnerable for a short while.
So how fast are cyclone atm? Speedroach runs at 3.
2.95. I think it would be ok if Cyclones were faster as this could allow more micropotential but in order to zone the target they would need to get into very close range and thus they will be vulnerable for a short while.
On November 09 2014 10:57 Hider wrote: @ burrow counter micro potential: Still seems very problematic if Cyclone can attack into a Roach and then move back. The zerg player will still feel like he never has a chance to attack back and just burrows to "survive". I think that will feel similar to playing vs Swarm Host where your just running around trying to avoid taking damage from Locusts. I think its super important that a zerg player feels like he can kill the Cyclones if he micros well.
He should be able to if he makes Zerglings, Mutas, Vipers or Infestors. Just don't mass pure Roach. You can't beat Banshees with Roaches either no matter how well you micro.
There is a big difference. Banshee/Hellion actually has a solid interaction vs Speedling/Spore/queen. On the other hand, Hellin/cyclone vs speedling/roach doesn't seem particualrly interesting. Instead, it seems like terran will just want to kite infinitely if the range of the Cyclone isn't adjusted.
Moreover, Banshee's also come later, which gives the zerg player more time to react, and you can surive it with either Roaches or Speedlings. I am very sceptical of the that terran can go like double factory and mass hellion/Cyclone and straight up win if zerg hasn't reacted perfectly (compositionwise).
Just remove hellion... ^^ Or just make overseer tier1 but slower.
No but really, hellion has no real role in lotv if they stay as they are... They are really boring overall.
So how fast are cyclone atm? Speedroach runs at 3.
2.95. I think it would be ok if Cyclones were faster as this could allow more micropotential but in order to zone the target they would need to get into very close range and thus they will be vulnerable for a short while.
Yeah. But if burrow removes the lock. That can maybe be the trait. Or while using my new roach burrow thing it removes the lock since they move underground etc.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cTVkbqS.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/LotV/Campaign/newzealot.jpg)
