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On November 09 2014 10:01 SatedSC2 wrote:
Do you even have a point or are you just trying to use words incorrectly on purpose..?
That kind of sentence doesn't serve your cause.
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On November 09 2014 09:51 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 09:40 SmileZerg wrote:On November 09 2014 09:34 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:27 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 09 2014 09:25 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:23 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 09 2014 09:21 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:17 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 09 2014 09:15 SatedSC2 wrote:we should just be happy about new expansion and some radical changes from blizard Why should I be happy about radical changes if I like the game the way it is..? There is very little I dislike about the game right now, and certainly nothing that needs a massive overhaul. Community has been crying for a massive change on alot of areas of the game for years now. Nothing stops you from continuing to play HOTS. You work on Starbow. Your bias is showing. Massively overstating the "outcry". So you want to say that there havent been any complaints about HOTS? Thats laughable. No. I want to say that you're overstating them. Which is what I wrote. Do you even understand English? Perhaps its only the nostalgia talk from you. If you like HOTS so much continue playing it. Let the rest play what they want. And yes you should be happy because you can still continue to play HOTS if you dont like change. It's not just about playing the game. I also really enjoy watching the game. It's pretty clear that the pro-scene will move on to LotV when it comes out and so telling me that I can still play HotS is very silly. So no I am not happy. I think the current announced changes and units are a travesty. What part of the following do you consider a travesty? - Lurkers, one of the best-designed units in BW? - Ravagers, an early game answer to Force Fields, with a micro-intensive ability that allows for counterplay? - Viable Carriers and Nydus Worms? - Removal of a redundant spell from the Oracle for a more interesting one? - Swarm Hosts that no longer draw out games into stalemates? - New units and abilities that can make for more interesting Mech play from Terran? What is your issue here? Keep in mind that balance whine isn't valid since these units haven't gone through beta testing and revision yet. What part of "currently announced" don't you understand? Of course the units are going to go through beta testing and revision. I'm saying that what's announced so far is terrible. For example, what the fuck is the Cyclone? It's clearly imbalanced. How anyone at Blizzard thought it was okay to show that unit in its current state makes me have a very small/non-existent amount of faith in their ability to do anything properly. Yes, it could and probably will be changed, but I said "currently announced" for a reason. The units aren't the main problem though. That Blizzard want to change core mechanics like the number of workers you start with or how fast bases turnover their economy worries me greatly. I like how economy currently works in SC2 a lot. I think the flow works well, I think that a lot of playstyles are viable and that the game tends to be very exciting despite constant (massively incorrect) whining about people "turtling" on three bases. I wouldn't watch it if I didn't find it exciting, and if anyone else here does watch/is passionate about current SC2 without finding it exciting then I'd question their sanity slightly. Frankly, it feels like Blizzard are trying to get new players into the game with flashy bullshit at the expense of people who like how it is now and I don't like that. It's a slap in the face to those who are passionate about the game in its current state.
Guess you hated the transition from WoL to HOTS to right? There were some players who said they disliked the change from wol to hots and yet most of the community liked the change.
Same from hots to LOTV, I see a lot more people celebrating these changes then not. If you don't like it, stick with hots. Just like how BW players think the same way you do (that they "removed" the spine of the game as you put it) they still play BW.
Why do you care what the pro scene plays if you don't enjoy it (for whatever reason)? If you still enjoy hots more when LOTV comes out then stick there, play what you enjoy.
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On November 09 2014 09:55 404AlphaSquad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 09:51 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:40 SmileZerg wrote:On November 09 2014 09:34 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:27 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 09 2014 09:25 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:23 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 09 2014 09:21 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:17 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 09 2014 09:15 SatedSC2 wrote:
[quote]
Why should I be happy about radical changes if I like the game the way it is..?
There is very little I dislike about the game right now, and certainly nothing that needs a massive overhaul. Community has been crying for a massive change on alot of areas of the game for years now. Nothing stops you from continuing to play HOTS. You work on Starbow. Your bias is showing. Massively overstating the "outcry". So you want to say that there havent been any complaints about HOTS? Thats laughable. No. I want to say that you're overstating them. Which is what I wrote. Do you even understand English? Perhaps its only the nostalgia talk from you. If you like HOTS so much continue playing it. Let the rest play what they want. And yes you should be happy because you can still continue to play HOTS if you dont like change. It's not just about playing the game. I also really enjoy watching the game. It's pretty clear that the pro-scene will move on to LotV when it comes out and so telling me that I can still play HotS is very silly. So no I am not happy. I think the current announced changes and units are a travesty. What part of the following do you consider a travesty? - Lurkers, one of the best-designed units in BW? - Ravagers, an early game answer to Force Fields, with a micro-intensive ability that allows for counterplay? - Viable Carriers and Nydus Worms? - Removal of a redundant spell from the Oracle for a more interesting one? - Swarm Hosts that no longer draw out games into stalemates? - New units and abilities that can make for more interesting Mech play from Terran? What is your issue here? Keep in mind that balance whine isn't valid since these units haven't gone through beta testing and revision yet. What part of "currently announced" don't you understand? Of course the units are going to go through beta testing and revision. I'm saying that what's announced so far is terrible. For example, what the fuck is the Cyclone? It's clearly imbalanced. How anyone at Blizzard thought it was okay to show that unit in its current state makes me have a very small/non-existent amount of faith in their ability to do anything properly. Yes, it could and probably will be changed, but I said "currently announced" for a reason. The units aren't the main problem though. That Blizzard want to change core mechanics like the number of workers you start with or how fast bases turnover their economy worries me greatly. I like how economy currently works in SC2 a lot. I think the flow works well, I think that a lot of playstyles are viable and that the game tends to be very exciting despite constant (massively incorrect) whining about people "turtling" on three bases. I wouldn't watch it if I didn't fine it exciting. It feels like Blizzard are trying to get new players into the game at the expense of people who like how it is now and I don't like that. It's a slap in the face to those who are passionate about the game in its current state. But that is subjective isnt it? What is good and what is bad for the game? So this hasnt to do with competence of Blizzard. If they would say we implement a flying collossi that shoots 8 lasers, then you would have a point. But so far it is I dont like unit X. I dont like that Y part of the game is beeing changed and that it is good how Y is now, despite all the people thinking otherwise. Also many decade loyal BW players considered SC2 a slap in their face.
They showcased the Cyclone in the state that it is in and people are defending it by telling others to wait for the beta.
I think I'm not leaning far out of the window when I say a flying 8laser collossus is just as easy to nerf into the ground and make playable as the cyclone. Which doesn't change that the concepts at a core aren't fun and need quite an overhaul.
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On November 09 2014 10:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 09:55 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 09 2014 09:51 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:40 SmileZerg wrote:On November 09 2014 09:34 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:27 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 09 2014 09:25 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:23 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 09 2014 09:21 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:17 404AlphaSquad wrote:
[quote]
Community has been crying for a massive change on alot of areas of the game for years now. Nothing stops you from continuing to play HOTS. You work on Starbow. Your bias is showing. Massively overstating the "outcry". So you want to say that there havent been any complaints about HOTS? Thats laughable. No. I want to say that you're overstating them. Which is what I wrote. Do you even understand English? Perhaps its only the nostalgia talk from you. If you like HOTS so much continue playing it. Let the rest play what they want. And yes you should be happy because you can still continue to play HOTS if you dont like change. It's not just about playing the game. I also really enjoy watching the game. It's pretty clear that the pro-scene will move on to LotV when it comes out and so telling me that I can still play HotS is very silly. So no I am not happy. I think the current announced changes and units are a travesty. What part of the following do you consider a travesty? - Lurkers, one of the best-designed units in BW? - Ravagers, an early game answer to Force Fields, with a micro-intensive ability that allows for counterplay? - Viable Carriers and Nydus Worms? - Removal of a redundant spell from the Oracle for a more interesting one? - Swarm Hosts that no longer draw out games into stalemates? - New units and abilities that can make for more interesting Mech play from Terran? What is your issue here? Keep in mind that balance whine isn't valid since these units haven't gone through beta testing and revision yet. What part of "currently announced" don't you understand? Of course the units are going to go through beta testing and revision. I'm saying that what's announced so far is terrible. For example, what the fuck is the Cyclone? It's clearly imbalanced. How anyone at Blizzard thought it was okay to show that unit in its current state makes me have a very small/non-existent amount of faith in their ability to do anything properly. Yes, it could and probably will be changed, but I said "currently announced" for a reason. The units aren't the main problem though. That Blizzard want to change core mechanics like the number of workers you start with or how fast bases turnover their economy worries me greatly. I like how economy currently works in SC2 a lot. I think the flow works well, I think that a lot of playstyles are viable and that the game tends to be very exciting despite constant (massively incorrect) whining about people "turtling" on three bases. I wouldn't watch it if I didn't fine it exciting. It feels like Blizzard are trying to get new players into the game at the expense of people who like how it is now and I don't like that. It's a slap in the face to those who are passionate about the game in its current state. But that is subjective isnt it? What is good and what is bad for the game? So this hasnt to do with competence of Blizzard. If they would say we implement a flying collossi that shoots 8 lasers, then you would have a point. But so far it is I dont like unit X. I dont like that Y part of the game is beeing changed and that it is good how Y is now, despite all the people thinking otherwise. Also many decade loyal BW players considered SC2 a slap in their face. They showcased the Cyclone in the state that it is in and people are defending it by telling others to wait for the beta. I think I'm not leaning far out of the window when I say a flying 8laser collossus is just as easy to nerf into the ground and make playable as the cyclone. Which doesn't change that the concepts at a core aren't fun and need quite an overhaul.
What is wrong with the Cyclone, conceptually? It's not an a-move unit. It needs to be micro'd. Simple micro, but still. It's a bit too strong right now, maybe more than just a bit even, but that can be adjusted with a few stat changes. The idea of the unit is not boring, not like the Warhound was.
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On November 09 2014 10:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 09:55 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 09 2014 09:51 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:40 SmileZerg wrote:On November 09 2014 09:34 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:27 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 09 2014 09:25 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:23 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 09 2014 09:21 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:17 404AlphaSquad wrote:
[quote]
Community has been crying for a massive change on alot of areas of the game for years now. Nothing stops you from continuing to play HOTS. You work on Starbow. Your bias is showing. Massively overstating the "outcry". So you want to say that there havent been any complaints about HOTS? Thats laughable. No. I want to say that you're overstating them. Which is what I wrote. Do you even understand English? Perhaps its only the nostalgia talk from you. If you like HOTS so much continue playing it. Let the rest play what they want. And yes you should be happy because you can still continue to play HOTS if you dont like change. It's not just about playing the game. I also really enjoy watching the game. It's pretty clear that the pro-scene will move on to LotV when it comes out and so telling me that I can still play HotS is very silly. So no I am not happy. I think the current announced changes and units are a travesty. What part of the following do you consider a travesty? - Lurkers, one of the best-designed units in BW? - Ravagers, an early game answer to Force Fields, with a micro-intensive ability that allows for counterplay? - Viable Carriers and Nydus Worms? - Removal of a redundant spell from the Oracle for a more interesting one? - Swarm Hosts that no longer draw out games into stalemates? - New units and abilities that can make for more interesting Mech play from Terran? What is your issue here? Keep in mind that balance whine isn't valid since these units haven't gone through beta testing and revision yet. What part of "currently announced" don't you understand? Of course the units are going to go through beta testing and revision. I'm saying that what's announced so far is terrible. For example, what the fuck is the Cyclone? It's clearly imbalanced. How anyone at Blizzard thought it was okay to show that unit in its current state makes me have a very small/non-existent amount of faith in their ability to do anything properly. Yes, it could and probably will be changed, but I said "currently announced" for a reason. The units aren't the main problem though. That Blizzard want to change core mechanics like the number of workers you start with or how fast bases turnover their economy worries me greatly. I like how economy currently works in SC2 a lot. I think the flow works well, I think that a lot of playstyles are viable and that the game tends to be very exciting despite constant (massively incorrect) whining about people "turtling" on three bases. I wouldn't watch it if I didn't fine it exciting. It feels like Blizzard are trying to get new players into the game at the expense of people who like how it is now and I don't like that. It's a slap in the face to those who are passionate about the game in its current state. But that is subjective isnt it? What is good and what is bad for the game? So this hasnt to do with competence of Blizzard. If they would say we implement a flying collossi that shoots 8 lasers, then you would have a point. But so far it is I dont like unit X. I dont like that Y part of the game is beeing changed and that it is good how Y is now, despite all the people thinking otherwise. Also many decade loyal BW players considered SC2 a slap in their face. They showcased the Cyclone in the state that it is in and people are defending it by telling others to wait for the beta. I think I'm not leaning far out of the window when I say a flying 8laser collossus is just as easy to nerf into the ground and make playable as the cyclone. Which doesn't change that the concepts at a core aren't fun and need quite an overhaul.
They looked too strong vs protoss, that's pretty much it.
David Kim said they are looking into adding an early gaem toss unit still, so i don't think the cyclone is that big of a deal tbh.
People also forget that these games were played in archon mode, you still have to micro the unit, so i don't see what is so bad about the "concept at a core"
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On November 09 2014 10:01 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 09:55 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 09 2014 09:51 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:40 SmileZerg wrote:On November 09 2014 09:34 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:27 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 09 2014 09:25 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:23 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 09 2014 09:21 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:17 404AlphaSquad wrote:
[quote]
Community has been crying for a massive change on alot of areas of the game for years now. Nothing stops you from continuing to play HOTS. You work on Starbow. Your bias is showing. Massively overstating the "outcry". So you want to say that there havent been any complaints about HOTS? Thats laughable. No. I want to say that you're overstating them. Which is what I wrote. Do you even understand English? Perhaps its only the nostalgia talk from you. If you like HOTS so much continue playing it. Let the rest play what they want. And yes you should be happy because you can still continue to play HOTS if you dont like change. It's not just about playing the game. I also really enjoy watching the game. It's pretty clear that the pro-scene will move on to LotV when it comes out and so telling me that I can still play HotS is very silly. So no I am not happy. I think the current announced changes and units are a travesty. What part of the following do you consider a travesty? - Lurkers, one of the best-designed units in BW? - Ravagers, an early game answer to Force Fields, with a micro-intensive ability that allows for counterplay? - Viable Carriers and Nydus Worms? - Removal of a redundant spell from the Oracle for a more interesting one? - Swarm Hosts that no longer draw out games into stalemates? - New units and abilities that can make for more interesting Mech play from Terran? What is your issue here? Keep in mind that balance whine isn't valid since these units haven't gone through beta testing and revision yet. What part of "currently announced" don't you understand? Of course the units are going to go through beta testing and revision. I'm saying that what's announced so far is terrible. For example, what the fuck is the Cyclone? It's clearly imbalanced. How anyone at Blizzard thought it was okay to show that unit in its current state makes me have a very small/non-existent amount of faith in their ability to do anything properly. Yes, it could and probably will be changed, but I said "currently announced" for a reason. The units aren't the main problem though. That Blizzard want to change core mechanics like the number of workers you start with or how fast bases turnover their economy worries me greatly. I like how economy currently works in SC2 a lot. I think the flow works well, I think that a lot of playstyles are viable and that the game tends to be very exciting despite constant (massively incorrect) whining about people "turtling" on three bases. I wouldn't watch it if I didn't fine it exciting. It feels like Blizzard are trying to get new players into the game at the expense of people who like how it is now and I don't like that. It's a slap in the face to those who are passionate about the game in its current state. But that is subjective isnt it? What is good and what is bad for the game? So this hasnt to do with competence of Blizzard. If they would say we implement a flying collossi that shoots 8 lasers, then you would have a point. But so far it is I dont like unit X. I dont like that Y part of the game is beeing changed and that it is good how Y is now, despite all the people thinking otherwise. Of course it's subjective. That's why it's an opinion and all I'm doing is giving my opinion. The opposite opinion is also subjective. Do you even have a point or are you just trying to use words incorrectly on purpose..?
Urr, get past your arrogance that you are a native English speaker.
My point is I find it incredibly laughable that you call Blizzard incompetent, when all they implement is what the community was basically asking for half a decade. You may not like it, but sadly for you, you are in the minority here because the majority actually embraces the new design philosophy of Blizzard of units having drawbacks instead of beeing countered.
yes yes and I am gonna come up with Starbow now, even though you dont like it. Starbow HAS tested several different economic systems. It had the Starcraft 2 one for a very long time. We settled for BW mining. The foreigner mapmaking community tried to change how the economy works. The koreans tried different economic system based on different map design. So clearly alot of people actually do think that the eco is not ideal. And I think it is nice from Blizzard to adress this issue. I dont think Blizzard does it the "right" way, because StarBow had Starcraft 2 mining before WITH 1k mineral patches instead and it didnt work out, so we settled down for BW mining because it was prooven for over a decade to be the best mining system atm. POINT IS; Blizzard tries to improve this area!
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On November 09 2014 10:08 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 10:00 SmileZerg wrote:On November 09 2014 09:51 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:40 SmileZerg wrote:On November 09 2014 09:34 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:27 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 09 2014 09:25 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:23 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 09 2014 09:21 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:17 404AlphaSquad wrote:
[quote]
Community has been crying for a massive change on alot of areas of the game for years now. Nothing stops you from continuing to play HOTS. You work on Starbow. Your bias is showing. Massively overstating the "outcry". So you want to say that there havent been any complaints about HOTS? Thats laughable. No. I want to say that you're overstating them. Which is what I wrote. Do you even understand English? Perhaps its only the nostalgia talk from you. If you like HOTS so much continue playing it. Let the rest play what they want. And yes you should be happy because you can still continue to play HOTS if you dont like change. It's not just about playing the game. I also really enjoy watching the game. It's pretty clear that the pro-scene will move on to LotV when it comes out and so telling me that I can still play HotS is very silly. So no I am not happy. I think the current announced changes and units are a travesty. What part of the following do you consider a travesty? - Lurkers, one of the best-designed units in BW? - Ravagers, an early game answer to Force Fields, with a micro-intensive ability that allows for counterplay? - Viable Carriers and Nydus Worms? - Removal of a redundant spell from the Oracle for a more interesting one? - Swarm Hosts that no longer draw out games into stalemates? - New units and abilities that can make for more interesting Mech play from Terran? What is your issue here? Keep in mind that balance whine isn't valid since these units haven't gone through beta testing and revision yet. What part of "currently announced" don't you understand? Of course the units are going to go through beta testing and revision. I'm saying that what's announced so far is terrible. For example, what the fuck is the Cyclone? It's clearly imbalanced. How anyone at Blizzard thought it was okay to show that unit in its current state makes me have a very small/non-existent amount of faith in their ability to do anything properly. Yes, it could and probably will be changed, but I said "currently announced" for a reason. The units aren't the main problem though. That Blizzard want to change core mechanics like the number of workers you start with or how fast bases turnover their economy worries me greatly. I like how economy currently works in SC2 a lot. I think the flow works well, I think that a lot of playstyles are viable and that the game tends to be very exciting despite constant (massively incorrect) whining about people "turtling" on three bases. I wouldn't watch it if I didn't find it exciting, and if anyone else here does watch/is passionate about current SC2 without finding it exciting then I'd question their sanity slightly. Frankly, it feels like Blizzard are trying to get new players into the game with flashy bullshit at the expense of people who like how it is now and I don't like that. It's a slap in the face to those who are passionate about the game in its current state. Read the last sentence of my previous post again and then stop crying. Also do yourself a favor and search up the discussions on the differences between the SC2 economy and the BW economy. One is clearly superior in terms of giving us better games, and you get two guesses as to which it is, and it's not SC2. The new LotV economy attempts to address that. It also pretty much fails completely, but the point is that an attempt is being made by Blizzard. The point of these changes is that they're listening. If we can get them on the right track, we might actually finally have the game SC2 should have been from the outset. I prefer everything in SC2 to everything in BW.
Well that's already a red flag that you have no idea what you're talking about.
Sorry to break it to you that not everyone in the world thinks that BW is the best RTS ever made.
Yes, only the ones who have a good understanding of game design think that. You can cry elitist all you want but it doesn't change the facts.
Besides, what was it that you said to me earlier about how if I preferred HotS to LotV then I should just keep playing HotS?
That wasn't me, that was one of the literally 4 or 5 other people in this thread who also think you're being ridiculous.
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On November 09 2014 10:08 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 10:00 SmileZerg wrote:On November 09 2014 09:51 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:40 SmileZerg wrote:On November 09 2014 09:34 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:27 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 09 2014 09:25 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:23 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 09 2014 09:21 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:17 404AlphaSquad wrote:
[quote]
Community has been crying for a massive change on alot of areas of the game for years now. Nothing stops you from continuing to play HOTS. You work on Starbow. Your bias is showing. Massively overstating the "outcry". So you want to say that there havent been any complaints about HOTS? Thats laughable. No. I want to say that you're overstating them. Which is what I wrote. Do you even understand English? Perhaps its only the nostalgia talk from you. If you like HOTS so much continue playing it. Let the rest play what they want. And yes you should be happy because you can still continue to play HOTS if you dont like change. It's not just about playing the game. I also really enjoy watching the game. It's pretty clear that the pro-scene will move on to LotV when it comes out and so telling me that I can still play HotS is very silly. So no I am not happy. I think the current announced changes and units are a travesty. What part of the following do you consider a travesty? - Lurkers, one of the best-designed units in BW? - Ravagers, an early game answer to Force Fields, with a micro-intensive ability that allows for counterplay? - Viable Carriers and Nydus Worms? - Removal of a redundant spell from the Oracle for a more interesting one? - Swarm Hosts that no longer draw out games into stalemates? - New units and abilities that can make for more interesting Mech play from Terran? What is your issue here? Keep in mind that balance whine isn't valid since these units haven't gone through beta testing and revision yet. What part of "currently announced" don't you understand? Of course the units are going to go through beta testing and revision. I'm saying that what's announced so far is terrible. For example, what the fuck is the Cyclone? It's clearly imbalanced. How anyone at Blizzard thought it was okay to show that unit in its current state makes me have a very small/non-existent amount of faith in their ability to do anything properly. Yes, it could and probably will be changed, but I said "currently announced" for a reason. The units aren't the main problem though. That Blizzard want to change core mechanics like the number of workers you start with or how fast bases turnover their economy worries me greatly. I like how economy currently works in SC2 a lot. I think the flow works well, I think that a lot of playstyles are viable and that the game tends to be very exciting despite constant (massively incorrect) whining about people "turtling" on three bases. I wouldn't watch it if I didn't find it exciting, and if anyone else here does watch/is passionate about current SC2 without finding it exciting then I'd question their sanity slightly. Frankly, it feels like Blizzard are trying to get new players into the game with flashy bullshit at the expense of people who like how it is now and I don't like that. It's a slap in the face to those who are passionate about the game in its current state. Read the last sentence of my previous post again and then stop crying. Also do yourself a favor and search up the discussions on the differences between the SC2 economy and the BW economy. One is clearly superior in terms of giving us better games, and you get two guesses as to which it is, and it's not SC2. The new LotV economy attempts to address that. It also pretty much fails completely, but the point is that an attempt is being made by Blizzard. The point of these changes is that they're listening. If we can get them on the right track, we might actually finally have the game SC2 should have been from the outset. I prefer everything in SC2 to everything in BW. Sorry to break it to you that not everyone in the world thinks that BW is the best RTS ever made. Besides, what was it that you said to me earlier about how if I preferred HotS to LotV then I should just keep playing HotS? Why doesn't that advice apply to people who want SC2 to be more like BW? Shouldn't they play BW instead? Your logic isn't coherent. Too many holes. No point talking to someone who has so little passion for SC2 that they created a not-very-well-received mod instead. Blizzard should design LotV for people who are passionate about SC2.
You know, you make a lot of interesting though controversial points, and I'm not far from agreeing with you on some ; I like the way SC2 eco works too for instance. But the way you're always agressively reducing what people say to their lack of logical perfection can be irritating. Remember most of us here aren't native speakers.
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On November 09 2014 02:42 Hider wrote:You have to be kidding me. I watched both games twice and the videos 5 times and just spent like 5 hours reading all of the threads on reddit on Teamliquid... If anything I spent way too much time here. Show nested quote +There are units that do just that (the Cyclone gives defenders adv. by being aggressive with the hight mobility and long-ish range coupled with micro. Zerg gets Lurcs and Protoss has Nexus cannon. Another aspect to this is that the hard counters are toned down a lot. So Siege Tanks for example, in defensive positions, are not as easy to break as before (changed Immortals and Shs)
So I don't think you understand my point here. The issue isn't that Tanks can't hold position if you mass enough of them and turtle. You can do that in HOTS and you will still be able to do that in LOTV. Instead, the issue is that you cannot defend multiple locations at once while being aggressive in some sort of shape. If you watch the video, notice that 3 immortals still beat 5 tanks, so terran cannot just spread out a couple of tanks everywhere and still be fine. He still has to move his units in a ball becasue the defenders advantage just isn't there. Also note that the solution here isn't to buff tanks, because that will buff them both when they are in a ball and when they are spread out. The issue is that there is no natural defenders advantage which makes this type of spread-out economy work as it does in MOBA's. That's why every map/mod which has tried to make this work has failed. Show nested quote +Strong defensive play is not achieved just through units in defensive positions, but also through strong harass (that demands that the opponent react, thus not attacking you!) The MOBA solution of super super strong static is one solution, hardly the most exciting for an RTS. This sounds like you have been watching too much Day9 and played/analyzed the game yourself too litte. Here is a practical example: If you play bio vs mech in Sc2 you can ignore hellions killing 20 workers in one base if you can just straight up kill the enemy mech player. In HOTS; however, the bio-player cannot do that as the mech player isn't forced to spread out that much. But if he has to defend 4 bases at 12 minute mark with like 6-7 siege tanks.... GL with that. But your right, I don't agree with the MOBA solution either in Sc2. That's why BW economy > SC2 economy >>>>>>>> LOTV economy.
You will describe in detail everyting that you dislike; and you will give comprehensive information on all of the things that you talked about.
You will also get a life, and stop the obsession you have with Day9.
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I'm having to battle w/ my roommate who wants to watch Ohio State football..clearly I'm in the right, right?
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BW was balanced due to it's limits.. There's NO WAY BW would be balanced if there were multiple building selection and 255 units in one hotkey to play
SC2 has done AMAZING all things considered - I mean - Warpgate ? - do you guys know how much guts that must've required to revamp the game in SUCH a radical way ?
Now in LotV we see another very drastic change which will reduce worker/economy % of attention and increase that in multiple army movements
BUT - what I don't like at the designer team or DK (probably) is that they make a very good unit concept, but don't experiment enough with them to find the best way to make them
I mean - if there were like 2 weeks in the Beta of HotS in which the Swarm Hosts spawned locusts slower or didn't have the upgrade for increase lifetime, or even a week of when Swarm Hosts had a less of a downtime and not having an enduring locusts upgrade - pretty sure we'd have seen the best way the Swarm Host unit could be balanced/designed/released/tested/made
I think that the guts Blizz did in this game is on the amazing level, but don't like the "first-hit-decidedness" they tended to have in the Betas overall I guess.. I mean in WoL there were A LOT of Beta changes, why weren't there such "experiments" in HotS as well ?
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On November 09 2014 10:08 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 10:05 Big J wrote:On November 09 2014 09:55 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 09 2014 09:51 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:40 SmileZerg wrote:On November 09 2014 09:34 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:27 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 09 2014 09:25 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:23 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 09 2014 09:21 SatedSC2 wrote:
[quote]
You work on Starbow. Your bias is showing. Massively overstating the "outcry". So you want to say that there havent been any complaints about HOTS? Thats laughable. No. I want to say that you're overstating them. Which is what I wrote. Do you even understand English? Perhaps its only the nostalgia talk from you. If you like HOTS so much continue playing it. Let the rest play what they want. And yes you should be happy because you can still continue to play HOTS if you dont like change. It's not just about playing the game. I also really enjoy watching the game. It's pretty clear that the pro-scene will move on to LotV when it comes out and so telling me that I can still play HotS is very silly. So no I am not happy. I think the current announced changes and units are a travesty. What part of the following do you consider a travesty? - Lurkers, one of the best-designed units in BW? - Ravagers, an early game answer to Force Fields, with a micro-intensive ability that allows for counterplay? - Viable Carriers and Nydus Worms? - Removal of a redundant spell from the Oracle for a more interesting one? - Swarm Hosts that no longer draw out games into stalemates? - New units and abilities that can make for more interesting Mech play from Terran? What is your issue here? Keep in mind that balance whine isn't valid since these units haven't gone through beta testing and revision yet. What part of "currently announced" don't you understand? Of course the units are going to go through beta testing and revision. I'm saying that what's announced so far is terrible. For example, what the fuck is the Cyclone? It's clearly imbalanced. How anyone at Blizzard thought it was okay to show that unit in its current state makes me have a very small/non-existent amount of faith in their ability to do anything properly. Yes, it could and probably will be changed, but I said "currently announced" for a reason. The units aren't the main problem though. That Blizzard want to change core mechanics like the number of workers you start with or how fast bases turnover their economy worries me greatly. I like how economy currently works in SC2 a lot. I think the flow works well, I think that a lot of playstyles are viable and that the game tends to be very exciting despite constant (massively incorrect) whining about people "turtling" on three bases. I wouldn't watch it if I didn't fine it exciting. It feels like Blizzard are trying to get new players into the game at the expense of people who like how it is now and I don't like that. It's a slap in the face to those who are passionate about the game in its current state. But that is subjective isnt it? What is good and what is bad for the game? So this hasnt to do with competence of Blizzard. If they would say we implement a flying collossi that shoots 8 lasers, then you would have a point. But so far it is I dont like unit X. I dont like that Y part of the game is beeing changed and that it is good how Y is now, despite all the people thinking otherwise. Also many decade loyal BW players considered SC2 a slap in their face. They showcased the Cyclone in the state that it is in and people are defending it by telling others to wait for the beta. I think I'm not leaning far out of the window when I say a flying 8laser collossus is just as easy to nerf into the ground and make playable as the cyclone. Which doesn't change that the concepts at a core aren't fun and need quite an overhaul. What is wrong with the Cyclone, conceptually? It's not an a-move unit. It needs to be micro'd. Simple micro, but still. It's a bit too strong right now, maybe more than just a bit even, but that can be adjusted with a few stat changes. The idea of the unit is not boring, not like the Warhound was.
It locks on a target and then moves away from it without having to stop, which means it hardcounters anything that is slower/less range than it. Which are a lot of units, given that the cyclone looked faster than the default 2.25 and has 6range with a 9range upgrade. And a massive leash range in which it will keep firing, even if you try to run away.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cTVkbqS.jpg)
E.g. the cyclone locks on a unit, you turn that unit around and run away and even if the cyclone would be put on hold position it would still shoot you for another 2-3seconds which with its current stats makes to about 90damage.
People were whining about the Colossus being a mobile siege weapon. The Cyclone is a mobile siege weapon that can kite with little effort and has no weakness to air units.
There is currently no countermicro against it, you just have the hardcounters to it, or you don't.
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On November 09 2014 10:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 10:05 Big J wrote:On November 09 2014 09:55 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 09 2014 09:51 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:40 SmileZerg wrote:On November 09 2014 09:34 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:27 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 09 2014 09:25 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 09 2014 09:23 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 09 2014 09:21 SatedSC2 wrote:
[quote]
You work on Starbow. Your bias is showing. Massively overstating the "outcry". So you want to say that there havent been any complaints about HOTS? Thats laughable. No. I want to say that you're overstating them. Which is what I wrote. Do you even understand English? Perhaps its only the nostalgia talk from you. If you like HOTS so much continue playing it. Let the rest play what they want. And yes you should be happy because you can still continue to play HOTS if you dont like change. It's not just about playing the game. I also really enjoy watching the game. It's pretty clear that the pro-scene will move on to LotV when it comes out and so telling me that I can still play HotS is very silly. So no I am not happy. I think the current announced changes and units are a travesty. What part of the following do you consider a travesty? - Lurkers, one of the best-designed units in BW? - Ravagers, an early game answer to Force Fields, with a micro-intensive ability that allows for counterplay? - Viable Carriers and Nydus Worms? - Removal of a redundant spell from the Oracle for a more interesting one? - Swarm Hosts that no longer draw out games into stalemates? - New units and abilities that can make for more interesting Mech play from Terran? What is your issue here? Keep in mind that balance whine isn't valid since these units haven't gone through beta testing and revision yet. What part of "currently announced" don't you understand? Of course the units are going to go through beta testing and revision. I'm saying that what's announced so far is terrible. For example, what the !@#$%^&* is the Cyclone? It's clearly imbalanced. How anyone at Blizzard thought it was okay to show that unit in its current state makes me have a very small/non-existent amount of faith in their ability to do anything properly. Yes, it could and probably will be changed, but I said "currently announced" for a reason. The units aren't the main problem though. That Blizzard want to change core mechanics like the number of workers you start with or how fast bases turnover their economy worries me greatly. I like how economy currently works in SC2 a lot. I think the flow works well, I think that a lot of playstyles are viable and that the game tends to be very exciting despite constant (massively incorrect) whining about people "turtling" on three bases. I wouldn't watch it if I didn't fine it exciting. It feels like Blizzard are trying to get new players into the game at the expense of people who like how it is now and I don't like that. It's a slap in the face to those who are passionate about the game in its current state. But that is subjective isnt it? What is good and what is bad for the game? So this hasnt to do with competence of Blizzard. If they would say we implement a flying collossi that shoots 8 lasers, then you would have a point. But so far it is I dont like unit X. I dont like that Y part of the game is beeing changed and that it is good how Y is now, despite all the people thinking otherwise. Also many decade loyal BW players considered SC2 a slap in their face. They showcased the Cyclone in the state that it is in and people are defending it by telling others to wait for the beta. I think I'm not leaning far out of the window when I say a flying 8laser collossus is just as easy to nerf into the ground and make playable as the cyclone. Which doesn't change that the concepts at a core aren't fun and need quite an overhaul. They looked too strong vs protoss, that's pretty much it. David Kim said they are looking into adding an early gaem toss unit still, so i don't think the cyclone is that big of a deal tbh. People also forget that these games were played in archon mode, you still have to micro the unit, so i don't see what is so bad about the "concept at a core"
And it hardcountered Roaches. I don't know people suddenly think it's good design when one unit cannot even touch another unit. Those types of interactions have never been fun.
There is currently no countermicro against it, you just have the hardcounters to it, or you don't.
In the Q&A David Kim said that blink stalkers could counter it lol. So the question is what anyone is gonna do up to that point.
Honestly the mess that LOTV is in looks worse than HOTS alpha. At least there you could see the purpose of the unit-roles and be hyped on the effect on the gameplay. I remember I was. Right now, I am so dissapointed as most of the new stuff has some really poor interactions. All I can think of that will be interesting to see is how the Lurker will work vs bioplay and the new zerg unit that can counter forcefields.
Maybe they can also make mech play interesting vs toss, but I am not such a big fan of the direction they have taken so far (aside from removal of hardened shield).
They should also have redesigned the bio vs toss late game interaction. That would have been a big selling point as the bio/ghost/viking vs toss deathball is so unfun, And... yeh basically, I would have liked to see redesigns/changes to almost all of the units in order to improve the interactions and styles which are viable.
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It locks on a target and then moves away from it without having to stop, which means it hardcounters anything that is slower/less range than it. Which are a lot of units, given that the cyclone looked faster than the default 2.25 and has 6range with a 9range upgrade. And a massive leash range in which it will keep firing, even if you try to run away. E.g. the cyclone locks on a unit, you turn that unit around and run away and even if the cyclone would be put on hold position it would still shoot you for another 2-3seconds which with its current stats makes to about 90damage. People were whining about the Colossus being a mobile siege weapon. The Cyclone is a mobile siege weapon that can kite with little effort and has no weakness to air units. There is currently no countermicro against it, you just have the hardcounters to it, or you don't.
The thing is that that's a CURRENT state..
We don't know how long does a Cyclone need to retarget after one target has been shut down or escaped from that range.. Protoss could make Hallucinations early on to "confuse" this unit as well as Forcefields to prevent it's retreat path.. Oracles can drop the wards to have them stasised.. Zergs have SpeedLings to surround it, and overall the Zerg don't have much of "juicy targets" except maybe the Queens in the early game
The question is - do you like the CONCEPT, not the numbers ?
I like it cause it seems as an elegant solution to units with a high value from range therefore discouraging deathball play
I mean if you refer to the showmatch those were used in - the Zerg players were "showmatching" and mis-using the units.. The Ravager is a buster unit, not an army vs army play (except if good on ling surround/lock/flank) until Infestors are up in the game
The Lurker is a anti-marine defender or invasion harassment, not an anti-cyclone play
The two Zerg players did A LOT of mistakes of missplay.. Ofcourse - no-one could've known cause it was the first game ever shown there.. As they failed - we learn by watching that, still believe that that isn't the end there.. Even if the unit is really very effective vs everything - it will be tweaked/revamped - smaller grasping range, or longer cooldown on switching targets, lesser damage vs light units whilest keeping the same amount vs armored, or even higher cost or higher build time so you'd have to invest in more factories to go "apesh*t" with them, there are TONS of ways to tweak the unit to do the role it plays
So yes - do you like the CONCEPT/ROLE (not the numbers) of the unit - that's the question - do you like the unit concept in the game ?
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On November 09 2014 10:21 VArsovskiSC wrote:Show nested quote +It locks on a target and then moves away from it without having to stop, which means it hardcounters anything that is slower/less range than it. Which are a lot of units, given that the cyclone looked faster than the default 2.25 and has 6range with a 9range upgrade. And a massive leash range in which it will keep firing, even if you try to run away. E.g. the cyclone locks on a unit, you turn that unit around and run away and even if the cyclone would be put on hold position it would still shoot you for another 2-3seconds which with its current stats makes to about 90damage. People were whining about the Colossus being a mobile siege weapon. The Cyclone is a mobile siege weapon that can kite with little effort and has no weakness to air units. There is currently no countermicro against it, you just have the hardcounters to it, or you don't. The question is - do you like the CONCEPT, not the numbers ?
To be honest, no. It doesn't look like something that is needed in any way.
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EPT
