On November 08 2014 21:20 Foxxan wrote: I dunno why gateway units should be buffed after that tiny nerf to wg. The nerf doesnt do much in the long run anyway. So nothing is really changing.
The WG change is absolutely gigantic.
How so? Warpgate will still be the superior choice over gateway. 3sec longer warpin makes it more vulnerable, toss needs to warpin a bit further away than in hots. The 200% extra damage makes toss need more decision while warping in.
While protoss do the gw timing attacks with a warpprism - The warpins are usually behind the units. This change makes it a bit easier to drop units and to defend against warpin offense.
So in the end i dont see this as huge at all.
Of everything introduced/changed in LotV, the warpgate change is the second biggest one, right after the economy revamp. Defensive warpins basically don't exist anymore unless you see things coming a mile away. No matter where you warp in, it gives your opponent 3 extra seconds to react to it and also 200% extra damage to kill units as they warp in. Aside from the very obvious fact that it slows down protoss reinforcements by 3 seconds each warpin round.
It's a gigantic change.
I did edit my post.
It do change stuff ,yes. Protoss needs more decision in some regards to where to warpin. Especially without support. But other than that its pretty much the same. It will still have the same macropower. This is unchanged.
In bigger fights where protoss do their timing attack with heavy wg play. The warpin units will be protected and its pretty much the "same" as before except the 3sec longer duration.
So i dont think this will let blizzard buff gateway units. However, if ravager comes at lair. This probably means gateway units needs a buff. Or if terrans new units are very strong and accessable early on. Sure, it might need a change.
Other than that, i dont see gateway units getting changed.
They already have to be changed with these changes. They HAVE to. Protoss isn't getting strengthened early game, they're getting massive nerfs by forcefields being breakable by zerg and overcharge hitting only ground. If you warp in units defensively while your opponent is attacking (which you have to do VERY often) and your units take 3 more seconds to warp in + take 200% extra damage, it's absolutely impossible for gateway units not to be buffed. Like, protoss would not exist in tournaments unless they do that.
I don't think any intelligent person would disregard the game because their timings and build orders will change. Because of how much experience the community has with the game over the four or so years SC2 has been out, it won't be hard to iron out the basic build orders. But, but, I won't be able to 6 pool anymore are you fucking retarded. It'll be a 12 pool or whatever. That's so fucking arbitrary you might have Asperger's and even if you do that's fine.
Really though I am excited for the game's future. The economy change looks like it will make one base play extremely effective and expanding more necessary at the same time--time will tell. If you are making your final decisions already about that game because of the boring showmatch half of the Archon weren't even trying *cough* Jakji and Stardust. If you were to look at that game as a starting point for your balance whine, you have to understand that you do what works. They weren't. They were just showing the new units mostly like everyone wanted to see. Speedlings are the answer to the Cyclone, everything else gets shit on by it. It seems terribly imba, but we have to wait and see. The people complaining are complaining for the wrong reasons and mostly personal reasons at that. The Immortal no longer hard counters the Tank, at least this is the intention of the Hardened Shield change that makes the Immortal microable to another level. They are obviously trying to move in the right direction.
And the Ravager is obviously not meant to hit fast flying units or any fast units in general. It destroys Forcefields (a much more elegant solution than move-Burrow roaches and a much needed mechanic to the game--seriously, fuck Forcefields, that's some lame-ass bullshit and it always has been).
When I see these people say RIP SC2, they are right. It's a new game. And it might not turn out that different than it is now. The same basic game is still there, you just start off with a faster economy and the rate at which you mine out is much faster now, leading to more exciting, active, and dynamic gameplay
On November 08 2014 21:30 Big J wrote: Can someone break down the economy revamp for me? As far as I understand it they did two things: - game starts with 12workers, which seems to be mainly a anti-rush change to remove 11/11, 10pool etc. and allow players to start scouting the moment they enter a game without huge economical drawbacks - only 1000minerals per base
But they haven't changed the saturation level or the mining efficiency of workers or any of that, right?
They have. Before max was 24 workers per base, now it is 16.
In the Exhibition match #1 it is still 24.
Missed them -was so late, didn't even see the end of INno-TaeJa. How were the exhibition matches ?
There was one match, played in Archon mode and it was bad. I mean we see new stuff and players were obviously trying to show that, but it was a bad showcase of new stuff and a lot of stuff looks quite imbalanced of course.
Nothing strange for a first showing of LotV, we will have to wait for the Beta.
On November 08 2014 21:37 DarkLordOlli wrote: They need to be careful about not overnerfing the immortal vs mech. You walk a fine line there, if they're too weak then mech can really spiral and become extremely strong very fast
Not sure actually. I think there is potential with the oracle statis to disable sieged siege tanks or slow hellbats etc. Ofcourse its probably possbile to lay like 6traps pretty close to eaceh other and cover a huge area to really hit some units with the statis.
On November 08 2014 21:30 Big J wrote: Can someone break down the economy revamp for me? As far as I understand it they did two things: - game starts with 12workers, which seems to be mainly a anti-rush change to remove 11/11, 10pool etc. and allow players to start scouting the moment they enter a game without huge economical drawbacks - only 1000minerals per base
But they haven't changed the saturation level or the mining efficiency of workers or any of that, right?
They have. Before max was 24 workers per base, now it is 16.
In the Exhibition match #1 it is still 24.
Missed them -was so late, didn't even see the end of INno-TaeJa. How were the exhibition matches ?
There was one match, played in Archon mode and it was bad. I mean we see new stuff and players were obviously trying to show that, but it was a bad showcase of new stuff and a lot of stuff looks quite imbalanced of course.
Nothing strange for a first showing of LotV, we will have to wait for the Beta.
Redeye said that LotV open beta is coming in January, which could put closed beta within November. He could've misspoken or he could've been misinterpreted, but what was shown could be very close to what we get our hands on. It's an exciting prospect considering how good-stupid some of the stuff looks.
On November 08 2014 21:30 Big J wrote: Can someone break down the economy revamp for me? As far as I understand it they did two things: - game starts with 12workers, which seems to be mainly a anti-rush change to remove 11/11, 10pool etc. and allow players to start scouting the moment they enter a game without huge economical drawbacks - only 1000minerals per base
But they haven't changed the saturation level or the mining efficiency of workers or any of that, right?
They have. Before max was 24 workers per base, now it is 16.
In the Exhibition match #1 it is still 24.
Missed them -was so late, didn't even see the end of INno-TaeJa. How were the exhibition matches ?
There was one match, played in Archon mode and it was bad. I mean we see new stuff and players were obviously trying to show that, but it was a bad showcase of new stuff and a lot of stuff looks quite imbalanced of course.
Nothing strange for a first showing of LotV, we will have to wait for the Beta.
Redeye said that LotV open beta is coming in January, which could put closed beta within November. He could've misspoken or he could've been misinterpreted, but what was shown could be very close to what we get our hands on. It's an exciting prospect considering how good-stupid some of the stuff looks.
Meaning the upcoming WCS cycle will probably not be HotS only ?
On November 08 2014 21:20 Foxxan wrote: I dunno why gateway units should be buffed after that tiny nerf to wg. The nerf doesnt do much in the long run anyway. So nothing is really changing.
The WG change is absolutely gigantic.
How so? Warpgate will still be the superior choice over gateway. 3sec longer warpin makes it more vulnerable, toss needs to warpin a bit further away than in hots. The 200% extra damage makes toss need more decision while warping in.
While protoss do the gw timing attacks with a warpprism - The warpins are usually behind the units. This change makes it a bit easier to drop units and to defend against warpin offense.
So in the end i dont see this as huge at all.
Of everything introduced/changed in LotV, the warpgate change is the second biggest one, right after the economy revamp. Defensive warpins basically don't exist anymore unless you see things coming a mile away. No matter where you warp in, it gives your opponent 3 extra seconds to react to it and also 200% extra damage to kill units as they warp in. Aside from the very obvious fact that it slows down protoss reinforcements by 3 seconds each warpin round.
It's a gigantic change.
I did edit my post.
It do change stuff ,yes. Protoss needs more decision in some regards to where to warpin. Especially without support. But other than that its pretty much the same. It will still have the same macropower. This is unchanged.
In bigger fights where protoss do their timing attack with heavy wg play. The warpin units will be protected and its pretty much the "same" as before except the 3sec longer duration.
So i dont think this will let blizzard buff gateway units. However, if ravager comes at lair. This probably means gateway units needs a buff. Or if terrans new units are very strong and accessable early on. Sure, it might need a change.
Other than that, i dont see gateway units getting changed.
They already have to be changed with these changes. They HAVE to. Protoss isn't getting strengthened early game, they're getting massive nerfs by forcefields being breakable by zerg and overcharge hitting only ground. If you warp in units defensively while your opponent is attacking (which you have to do VERY often) and your units take 3 more seconds to warp in + take 200% extra damage, it's absolutely impossible for gateway units not to be buffed. Like, protoss would not exist in tournaments unless they do that.
I want to believe you are right. However. It just feels protoss will warpin a bit furher away than in hots.
And in alot of scenarios it feels like this: If protoss havea a semi-big armee. Then the warpin units are safe pretty much 100%.
On November 08 2014 21:30 Big J wrote: Can someone break down the economy revamp for me? As far as I understand it they did two things: - game starts with 12workers, which seems to be mainly a anti-rush change to remove 11/11, 10pool etc. and allow players to start scouting the moment they enter a game without huge economical drawbacks - only 1000minerals per base
But they haven't changed the saturation level or the mining efficiency of workers or any of that, right?
They have. Before max was 24 workers per base, now it is 16.
In the Exhibition match #1 it is still 24.
Missed them -was so late, didn't even see the end of INno-TaeJa. How were the exhibition matches ?
There was one match, played in Archon mode and it was bad. I mean we see new stuff and players were obviously trying to show that, but it was a bad showcase of new stuff and a lot of stuff looks quite imbalanced of course.
Nothing strange for a first showing of LotV, we will have to wait for the Beta.
Redeye said that LotV open beta is coming in January, which could put closed beta within November. He could've misspoken or he could've been misinterpreted, but what was shown could be very close to what we get our hands on. It's an exciting prospect considering how good-stupid some of the stuff looks.
Meaning the upcoming WCS cycle will probably not be HotS only ?
If what Redeye said is accurate, it's entirely possible S3 will be LotV exclusively.
About the lurkers. I really don´t see how they can fare against bio. Are they so strong that they one shot marauders under medivacs? Stimmed bio is quite strong and fast so don´t they just kill them? Even is you have banes and kings don´t you just kite those and then kill the lurkers as their range is not that huge? Force the zerg to engage with tanks. Maybe i´m missing something but lurkers just sound like super slow unit that dies to tanks and can´t deal with bio players speed and dps.
On November 08 2014 21:30 Big J wrote: Can someone break down the economy revamp for me? As far as I understand it they did two things: - game starts with 12workers, which seems to be mainly a anti-rush change to remove 11/11, 10pool etc. and allow players to start scouting the moment they enter a game without huge economical drawbacks - only 1000minerals per base
But they haven't changed the saturation level or the mining efficiency of workers or any of that, right?
They have. Before max was 24 workers per base, now it is 16.
In the Exhibition match #1 it is still 24.
Missed them -was so late, didn't even see the end of INno-TaeJa. How were the exhibition matches ?
There was one match, played in Archon mode and it was bad. I mean we see new stuff and players were obviously trying to show that, but it was a bad showcase of new stuff and a lot of stuff looks quite imbalanced of course.
Nothing strange for a first showing of LotV, we will have to wait for the Beta.
On November 08 2014 21:30 Big J wrote: Can someone break down the economy revamp for me? As far as I understand it they did two things: - game starts with 12workers, which seems to be mainly a anti-rush change to remove 11/11, 10pool etc. and allow players to start scouting the moment they enter a game without huge economical drawbacks - only 1000minerals per base
But they haven't changed the saturation level or the mining efficiency of workers or any of that, right?
They have. Before max was 24 workers per base, now it is 16.
In the Exhibition match #1 it is still 24.
Missed them -was so late, didn't even see the end of INno-TaeJa. How were the exhibition matches ?
There was one match, played in Archon mode and it was bad. I mean we see new stuff and players were obviously trying to show that, but it was a bad showcase of new stuff and a lot of stuff looks quite imbalanced of course.
Nothing strange for a first showing of LotV, we will have to wait for the Beta.
Redeye said that LotV open beta is coming in January, which could put closed beta within November. He could've misspoken or he could've been misinterpreted, but what was shown could be very close to what we get our hands on. It's an exciting prospect considering how good-stupid some of the stuff looks.
Meaning the upcoming WCS cycle will probably not be HotS only ?
We are far from that. Maybe there will be a special tournament in like the end of 2015/before release to showcase what has been achieved after a lot of testing and feedback, but ready for actual competitive play in 2015? I don't think that's likely
On November 08 2014 21:30 Big J wrote: Can someone break down the economy revamp for me? As far as I understand it they did two things: - game starts with 12workers, which seems to be mainly a anti-rush change to remove 11/11, 10pool etc. and allow players to start scouting the moment they enter a game without huge economical drawbacks - only 1000minerals per base
But they haven't changed the saturation level or the mining efficiency of workers or any of that, right?
They have. Before max was 24 workers per base, now it is 16.
In the Exhibition match #1 it is still 24.
Missed them -was so late, didn't even see the end of INno-TaeJa. How were the exhibition matches ?
There was one match, played in Archon mode and it was bad. I mean we see new stuff and players were obviously trying to show that, but it was a bad showcase of new stuff and a lot of stuff looks quite imbalanced of course.
Nothing strange for a first showing of LotV, we will have to wait for the Beta.
Redeye said that LotV open beta is coming in January, which could put closed beta within November. He could've misspoken or he could've been misinterpreted, but what was shown could be very close to what we get our hands on. It's an exciting prospect considering how good-stupid some of the stuff looks.
Meaning the upcoming WCS cycle will probably not be HotS only ?
If what Redeye said is accurate, it's entirely possible S3 will be LotV exclusively.
Yeah that's my rough guess too. If open beta comes in January, the game could be released around July -I think the beta will need to be very long since the changes are so radical- and they may set the calendar so that it coincides with the beginning of S3.
On November 08 2014 21:30 Big J wrote: Can someone break down the economy revamp for me? As far as I understand it they did two things: - game starts with 12workers, which seems to be mainly a anti-rush change to remove 11/11, 10pool etc. and allow players to start scouting the moment they enter a game without huge economical drawbacks - only 1000minerals per base
But they haven't changed the saturation level or the mining efficiency of workers or any of that, right?
They have. Before max was 24 workers per base, now it is 16.
In the Exhibition match #1 it is still 24.
Missed them -was so late, didn't even see the end of INno-TaeJa. How were the exhibition matches ?
There was one match, played in Archon mode and it was bad. I mean we see new stuff and players were obviously trying to show that, but it was a bad showcase of new stuff and a lot of stuff looks quite imbalanced of course.
Nothing strange for a first showing of LotV, we will have to wait for the Beta.
On November 08 2014 21:37 DarkLordOlli wrote: They need to be careful about not overnerfing the immortal vs mech. You walk a fine line there, if they're too weak then mech can really spiral and become extremely strong very fast
I don't think this is the mindset one should have when one approaching something that has been oppressively one-sided. If it was more even then "overnerfing" would be a legitimate concern, but as it stands I don't think overnerfing is possible unless they introduce something as equally as oppressive and arguably badly designed as an extreme hard counter. That good thing, however, is that Blizzard is moving away from bad hard counters so this won't be happening.
The clip in the video is a good example where those three immortals would've been able to destroy all of those tanks without losing one unit, but instead now lose some.
The only new unit I really dislike is the cyclone. It looks boring and seems to do boring stuff. The protoss changes are risky, but also pretty cool. That oracle stasis mine is sick.
On November 08 2014 21:47 virpi wrote: The only new unit I really dislike is the cyclone. It looks boring and seems to do boring stuff. The protoss changes are risky, but also pretty cool. That oracle stasis mine is sick.
What a joke, protoss getting more retarded units than normal and zerg just buffed to shit. Terran? nah some stupid units which are totally useless with no fix for mech in sight. I wont by this garbage that is for sure.
On November 08 2014 21:30 Big J wrote: Can someone break down the economy revamp for me? As far as I understand it they did two things: - game starts with 12workers, which seems to be mainly a anti-rush change to remove 11/11, 10pool etc. and allow players to start scouting the moment they enter a game without huge economical drawbacks - only 1000minerals per base
But they haven't changed the saturation level or the mining efficiency of workers or any of that, right?
They have. Before max was 24 workers per base, now it is 16.
In the Exhibition match #1 it is still 24.
Missed them -was so late, didn't even see the end of INno-TaeJa. How were the exhibition matches ?
There was one match, played in Archon mode and it was bad. I mean we see new stuff and players were obviously trying to show that, but it was a bad showcase of new stuff and a lot of stuff looks quite imbalanced of course.
Nothing strange for a first showing of LotV, we will have to wait for the Beta.
While a lot of things are interesting the game seem to be far, far, far from being playable in its current state. But I can get where they're going and though it'll need a lot of tweaking, some interesting ideas. The graphics are ugly though (HERC is ugly, ravager is ugly, lots of range dots and sloppy animations like roach ravager morph...), would have expected better.
On November 08 2014 21:54 Swwww wrote: What a joke, protoss getting more retarded units than normal and zerg just buffed to shit. Terran? nah some stupid units which are totally useless with no fix for mech in sight. I wont by this garbage that is for sure.
... I'm honestly not sure if you're trolling. The cyclone is probably the single strongest unit shown, banshees got a huge buff, tanks got a pretty sizable buff, and hardened shields got removed. Those are all MASSIVE for mech.
Overall, these changes are disgusting. Why in hell do they add new units? Is ths game called total anihilaion? Why on earth do we need this shit? Let alone their design, the reasoning behind adding them is unkown (or at least doubted). Ravager.... Zergs rly need that? What for? Zerg have all their units viable. Breaking FFs... some wierd air artillery crap. WHAT FOR? And in terms of design it looks completely out of this world. Protoss do need another AOE? Terran has trillion of tiny viehicles/robots or w/e that are hard to even distinguish.
Blizzard once was all about SOLID designs.
The ONLY good changes are: seige tanks, BC and Oracle abilities combined. Everything else is PURE CRAP that have no purpose.
Economy "redisign"... ok i can accept that (i also feel that 3v3 base meta is outdated) but all modern builds are a complete waste then. We will need to learn this game from the start. After wasting years on it we will be on the same ground as newbies (btw there will be no newbies, no matter how hard blizzard try). Ok if they dont care about casuals, think about Pros: ppl been practicing their asses and then all of a sudden. BAM! You were playng a wrong game sorry bros.
Ah fck it... no point in complaining. i lost any motivation to play.. fuck you blizzard. FUCK. YOU.
EPT
