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On November 08 2014 19:56 Big J wrote:
These Zerg changes are soooo crap:
- Nyuds: yeah, finally they cannot be stopped anymore. More stupid bullshit midgame roach allins coming in
- Ravager: wohoo, another midrange unit that cannot do shit against a turtling player nor be used against mobile units ala bio
- Lurker: wohoo, a 6range immobile splash unit in the midgame. Finally another tool that gets completely fucked by marauders, immortals, colossi; has some 9range upgrade in the lategame so you can take out canons one by one and after 10mins of burrowing and reburrowing because you can only barely outrange that stuff you may be allowed to attack a nexus.
- Corruptor: yeah, unit stays bullshit boring. But now you can kill immobile unprotected stuff with it? Just that mutas are much better at that already?
- Swarm Host: More free units. Less range! Finally all siege options have been nerfed into crapness. Let the P/T deathballing begin. Nothing to fear besides supernydusses, so you better bring out even more turrets to really prevent your opponent from getting any vision at all.
Well, at least Protoss is even more fucked and probably will never acquire a 3rd base anymore.
Do you realize that swarm hosts are favoring death ball play rather than preventing it?
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong and having the zerg player sitting behind static defenses with endless waves of locusts creates action packed games.
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On November 08 2014 20:00 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 19:56 Big J wrote:
These Zerg changes are soooo crap:
- Nyuds: yeah, finally they cannot be stopped anymore. More stupid bullshit midgame roach allins coming in
- Ravager: wohoo, another midrange unit that cannot do shit against a turtling player nor be used against mobile units ala bio
- Lurker: wohoo, a 6range immobile splash unit in the midgame. Finally another tool that gets completely fucked by marauders, immortals, colossi; has some 9range upgrade in the lategame so you can take out canons one by one and after 10mins of burrowing and reburrowing because you can only barely outrange that stuff you may be allowed to attack a nexus.
- Corruptor: yeah, unit stays bullshit boring. But now you can kill immobile unprotected stuff with it? Just that mutas are much better at that already?
- Swarm Host: More free units. Less range! Finally all siege options have been nerfed into crapness. Let the P/T deathballing begin. Nothing to fear besides supernydusses, so you better bring out even more turrets to really prevent your opponent from getting any vision at all.
Well, at least Protoss is even more fucked and probably will never acquire a 3rd base anymore. I think that you are way too much pessimistic about it.
I think with the crap they proposed they will spend the whole alpha/beta repairing the bullshit they have done, slowly removing half of the shown stuff or tweaking it in ways that it becomes crap outside of nieche situations.
It's the same story as with HotS: half of the stuff they proposed never made it in (nydus/corruptor changes, warhound, shredder, replicant, oracle/tempest got completely overhauled, nexus abilities got overhauled and put on the MsC, Locust completely redesigned away from melee/tanky/anti-air...)
Nothing what they have shown looks fleshed out at all. In particular, the Zerg changes have no goals or anything. It's just stuff that they throw out without a strategic purpose besides "this one can counter forcefields". It's all either useless or overlapping.
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On November 08 2014 19:49 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 19:42 playa wrote:On November 08 2014 19:35 Ramiz1989 wrote:On November 08 2014 19:31 Teoita wrote:On November 08 2014 19:27 Ramiz1989 wrote:On November 08 2014 19:25 DarkLordOlli wrote:
So after watching the Life vs San game, I just imagined the whole thing with flying locusts
Never again Nah, Swarm Hosts are changed to harassment/mid game push unit, you won't see any more turtling with them with how they are changed. During beta and very early hots we all thought swarm hosts were going to be a midgame unit that couldn't deal with high colossus or tank counts. We didn't really know how to use this unit, point is that now we have a thousand examples of what Swarm Hosts are and how to use them correctly. However, they are not burrowed anymore, you have to use Locusts manually, and Locusts have much much longer cooldown. Yes, people might still make them, but you won't be seeing only Swarm Hosts like today because they just won't work, there will be too much time between the Locusts waves where opponent can deal a lot of damage, at least that is my impression. That is the reason why they are giving them flying locust upgrade, to change the unit role. If they want a flying harassment unit, they have mutas. They even have corruptors to supplement the flying harass. For some reason, I'm having trouble understanding how the swarm host is even a horrible idea. It's worse than horrible, in my eyes. You can play an hour long game versus swarm host where not even 5 died. 8 died in that San vs Life game... That's with swarm hosts having to burrow. Now they can attack and run away, instantly, without having to burrow? Come on. You want to talk about skilless and cowardly. This unit epitomizes what this game should not be. To think a unit that you can never attack can do this kinda damage i just laughable. You won't have those kind of games anymore, that is my point... The reason why you could turtle as Zerg in HotS is because you couldn't push against Swarm Hosts. When one wave of Locusts dies, another one spawns and that has changed in LotV. Now if someone tries to turtle with them, sure, they will send a wave of Locusts that you will kill/avoid and then in next like, 20 seconds, there won't be anything, you will kill bunch of his stuff if he only has Swarm Hosts... he will be completely helpless and that is the reason I think we won't be seeing long Swarm Host games. Also, there is a very big difference between Mutas and flying Locusts. Mutas are air units, flying Locusts fly only for a period of time before they attack, and then they land to attack the unit and also can't attack air.
Basically, I'm watching tanks which can fire from 500 feet away and then retreat, and the argument for why the unit is fine is because "well, in the past I never had to change positions, and I could just keep shelling you, but now I simply have to make sure there's no one within 50 feet of me before I shoot, because I don't fire as many rounds as I used to."
Something tells me, unless you're in bronze league, you're going to be just as stupidly cost effective with this unit as ever, if not more. And, in starcraft, when you're vastly more cost effective than the other person, that's a problem. Especially when you didn't do anything skill wise to earn this advantage. It sounds a bit like imbalance.
After watching this unit ruin the game for the past 2 years, I'm now supposed to give it the benefit of the doubt. The same people, who, forever, were harping about how useless the swarm host was and how it would never be used in pro games. Stephano was just some crazy person to be discredited. And if you were a Toss player who struggled versus them, it's because you were a noob. Sorry, but a unit who has caused "these kinds" of games should be removed, even if it were good now, which it isn't, simply so I don't have flashbacks to the worst time in SC history.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
the nydus change doesnt make a big difference
it still dies instantly to almost anything
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On November 08 2014 20:10 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 19:56 Big J wrote:
- Ravager: wohoo, another midrange unit that cannot do shit against a turtling player nor be used against mobile units ala bio
- Lurker: wohoo, a 6range immobile splash unit in the midgame. Finally another tool that gets completely fucked by marauders, immortals, colossi; has some 9range upgrade in the lategame so you can take out canons one by one and after 10mins of burrowing and reburrowing because you can only barely outrange that stuff you may be allowed to attack a nexus.
Gets anti-slow/mech unit, unhappy it's not anti-bio. Gets anti-bio unit, unhappy it's not anti-slow/mech. Seems legit. Also, pretty sure that Ravagers are meant to do shit against turtling players. Whether they can do that effectively now is anyone's guess, but that's what alpha and beta are for...
Actually, depending on the race, I think that Ravagers can do quite a lot with his special attack. Of course, everything is subject to change, but in the video 4 of them killed Void Ray instantly, and 3 of them killed Siege Tank, so it seems that they do quite a bit of damage and are great against static defense. So if enemy doesn't have like a fuck ton of Siege Tanks they might be quite good at breaking enemy defense.
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On November 08 2014 20:10 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 19:56 Big J wrote:
- Ravager: wohoo, another midrange unit that cannot do shit against a turtling player nor be used against mobile units ala bio
- Lurker: wohoo, a 6range immobile splash unit in the midgame. Finally another tool that gets completely fucked by marauders, immortals, colossi; has some 9range upgrade in the lategame so you can take out canons one by one and after 10mins of burrowing and reburrowing because you can only barely outrange that stuff you may be allowed to attack a nexus.
Gets anti-slow/mech unit, unhappy it's not anti-bio. Gets anti-bio unit, unhappy it's not anti-slow/mech. Seems legit. Also, pretty sure that Ravagers are meant to do shit against turtling players. Whether they can do that effectively now is anyone's guess, but that's what alpha and beta are for...
My assumption is that ravagers are mostly intended to punish turtle play, siege lines in particular. The T player has to build and micro medivacs to counter that, so their effectiveness and the effectiveness of the siege line hinges on the player's skill and endurance. I like it.
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Wow, this is amazing. And that trailer really got me going.
"My life... for Aiur." (c) Zeratul. Sickest nerdchills ever.
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On November 08 2014 20:15 lichter wrote:
the nydus change doesnt make a big difference
it still dies instantly to almost anything
Yes, and people don't realize that at all, they think that it is somehow completely invulnerable...
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I kinda think the ravager can be fun vs bio. But not so much versus protoss.
The hook guy seems interesting in the way that it synergy with reapers to get to a base early. It synergy with vikings - Might encourage viking ground mode + hook up to a base etc
I kinda think the new robo unit is quite interesting somehow.
It doesnt die when it explodes and gets vulnerable afterwards.
Might open up some heavy stalker play from protoss without the boring/crap all-in or cheese or snowball effect which protoss has been doing 75% of all games.
It kinda behaves like a Widowmine, lol?
Bio+WM fights zerg.
Stalkers+robo unit fight zergs
Need more confirmation about the economy but right now we have like none. The economy doesnt seem very interesting except the 12worker start. Less boring in the opening and probably faster to the "real gameplay".
The corruptor is very uninspiring. This is the best they could do? Why not copy scourge or something? Let swarmhost shoot scourges?
The thing is: Unless the economy really do change aton. It will still be the crap deathball. Especially from protoss.
Protoss will either snowball or go into a deathball. This is what they do.
BOth styles are freaking boring.
There are so few interactions with protoss. Can they please take a much harder look at the interactions from protoss nad perhaps have the balls to encourage more micro with hydras, zealots, perhaps roaches etc?
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On November 08 2014 20:17 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 20:10 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 08 2014 19:56 Big J wrote:
- Ravager: wohoo, another midrange unit that cannot do shit against a turtling player nor be used against mobile units ala bio
- Lurker: wohoo, a 6range immobile splash unit in the midgame. Finally another tool that gets completely fucked by marauders, immortals, colossi; has some 9range upgrade in the lategame so you can take out canons one by one and after 10mins of burrowing and reburrowing because you can only barely outrange that stuff you may be allowed to attack a nexus.
Gets anti-slow/mech unit, unhappy it's not anti-bio. Gets anti-bio unit, unhappy it's not anti-slow/mech. Seems legit. Also, pretty sure that Ravagers are meant to do shit against turtling players. Whether they can do that effectively now is anyone's guess, but that's what alpha and beta are for... My assumption is that ravagers are mostly intended to punish turtle play, siege lines in particular. The T player has to build and micro medivacs to counter that, so their effectiveness and the effectiveness of the siege line hinges on the player's skill and endurance. I like it.
The ravager they showcased has like 8-9range and is armored (so gets extra damage from Tanks). You are not going to touch a 13range siege tank with that. The tank is a counter to the ravager.
I have no clue what the purpose of the lurker is. When I go down the melee path I'm mobile and getting kited. I have a good splash option in the baneling and the infestor combines much better than the lurker and doesn't need upgrades. Later on I have ultralisks as well.
When I go down the ranged path, I'm having trouble with drops (the lurker doesn't help here at all) and with marauderheavy bio/tank armies. So lurkers with 6range are crap if they only barely touch marauders (no splash involved) and the Terran deploys tanks by default.
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Many of the changes got me curious and interested in the game again (didn't play like for a year). I am a bit sceptical about the start with 12 workers thing, but we'll see if it stays in the game or how it actually plays out.
lol@whine before beta, community as a whole became really toxic, I don't envy David Kim and Co.
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On November 08 2014 20:23 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 20:17 Daralii wrote:On November 08 2014 20:10 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 08 2014 19:56 Big J wrote:
- Ravager: wohoo, another midrange unit that cannot do shit against a turtling player nor be used against mobile units ala bio
- Lurker: wohoo, a 6range immobile splash unit in the midgame. Finally another tool that gets completely fucked by marauders, immortals, colossi; has some 9range upgrade in the lategame so you can take out canons one by one and after 10mins of burrowing and reburrowing because you can only barely outrange that stuff you may be allowed to attack a nexus.
Gets anti-slow/mech unit, unhappy it's not anti-bio. Gets anti-bio unit, unhappy it's not anti-slow/mech. Seems legit. Also, pretty sure that Ravagers are meant to do shit against turtling players. Whether they can do that effectively now is anyone's guess, but that's what alpha and beta are for... My assumption is that ravagers are mostly intended to punish turtle play, siege lines in particular. The T player has to build and micro medivacs to counter that, so their effectiveness and the effectiveness of the siege line hinges on the player's skill and endurance. I like it. The ravager they showcased has like 8-9range and is armored (so gets extra damage from Tanks). You are not going to touch a 13range siege tank with that. The tank is a counter to the ravager. I have no clue what the purpose of the lurker is. When I go down the melee path I'm mobile and getting kited. I have a good splash option in the baneling and the infestor combines much better than the lurker and doesn't need upgrades. Later on I have ultralisks as well. When I go down the ranged path, I'm having trouble with drops (the lurker doesn't help here at all) and with marauderheavy bio/tank armies. So lurkers with 6range are crap if they only barely touch marauders (no splash involved) and the Terran deploys tanks by default.
I assume the point of the lurker is to placate the people that have been whining about its absence since WoL beta.
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about time blizz! Great changes so far
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Thanks to LotV I might actually start playing SC2!
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On November 08 2014 20:17 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 20:10 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 08 2014 19:56 Big J wrote:
- Ravager: wohoo, another midrange unit that cannot do shit against a turtling player nor be used against mobile units ala bio
- Lurker: wohoo, a 6range immobile splash unit in the midgame. Finally another tool that gets completely fucked by marauders, immortals, colossi; has some 9range upgrade in the lategame so you can take out canons one by one and after 10mins of burrowing and reburrowing because you can only barely outrange that stuff you may be allowed to attack a nexus.
Gets anti-slow/mech unit, unhappy it's not anti-bio. Gets anti-bio unit, unhappy it's not anti-slow/mech. Seems legit. Also, pretty sure that Ravagers are meant to do shit against turtling players. Whether they can do that effectively now is anyone's guess, but that's what alpha and beta are for... My assumption is that ravagers are mostly intended to punish turtle play, siege lines in particular. The T player has to build and micro medivacs to counter that, so their effectiveness and the effectiveness of the siege line hinges on the player's skill and endurance. I like it.
Yet, they are wallbreakers right? They can snipe stuff too. Also, it looks like they can target a protoss deathball and force it to split/screw with its positioning. And the new flying locusts are prolly good against tank lines. I like the zerg re-design. However im concerned that a ton of this stuff are late game and might not be used at all specially with the new economy, terran on the other hand got an barracks unit and protoss a robo unit.
edit: Its looks very exciting at first, but im afraid that LotV TvZ will be... Roach Hydra vs Tank bio until the late game.
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Lurkers will be better than banes tho versus bio?
Ling+lurker fight bio.
Will be more interesting atleast. Atleast i do believe that.
Lurkers should be able to defend easier also versus terran drops. They are also good units to be dropped.
Deponding on their price, their burrow time ofcourse..But ling+lurker might work well vs bio.
They shoot slow as hell tho according to the video.
And again banes: bio kinda splits all the time? Against lurkers, wtf do bio do? Dont tell me they split against lurks to?
No. I think bio want to concave versus lurkers. Then zerglings gets more surface area.
@About the new hooking guy
What is it about this melee+high health from the dev team?
Really? Hellbat is freaking boring except when its in a medivac. What will change here except now its a hook once every cooldown?
Something that bothers me with blizzard is there usually dont think about counter micro at all.
Terran hooks a bane->1shot it. Then what? What arezerg supposed to do about it?
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With these new scarabs (Disruptors), we could get ridd of collossi no?
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Wow so much uninformed or misinformt raging stuff ... calm down guys, play some Starbow to understand why is blizzard doing some changes .... ... . .
On November 08 2014 20:23 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 20:17 Daralii wrote:On November 08 2014 20:10 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 08 2014 19:56 Big J wrote:
- Ravager: wohoo, another midrange unit that cannot do shit against a turtling player nor be used against mobile units ala bio
- Lurker: wohoo, a 6range immobile splash unit in the midgame. Finally another tool that gets completely fucked by marauders, immortals, colossi; has some 9range upgrade in the lategame so you can take out canons one by one and after 10mins of burrowing and reburrowing because you can only barely outrange that stuff you may be allowed to attack a nexus.
Gets anti-slow/mech unit, unhappy it's not anti-bio. Gets anti-bio unit, unhappy it's not anti-slow/mech. Seems legit. Also, pretty sure that Ravagers are meant to do shit against turtling players. Whether they can do that effectively now is anyone's guess, but that's what alpha and beta are for... My assumption is that ravagers are mostly intended to punish turtle play, siege lines in particular. The T player has to build and micro medivacs to counter that, so their effectiveness and the effectiveness of the siege line hinges on the player's skill and endurance. I like it. The ravager they showcased has like 8-9range and is armored (so gets extra damage from Tanks). You are not going to touch a 13range siege tank with that. The tank is a counter to the ravager. I have no clue what the purpose of the lurker is. When I go down the melee path I'm mobile and getting kited. I have a good splash option in the baneling and the infestor combines much better than the lurker and doesn't need upgrades. Later on I have ultralisks as well. When I go down the ranged path, I'm having trouble with drops (the lurker doesn't help here at all) and with marauderheavy bio/tank armies. So lurkers with 6range are crap if they only barely touch marauders (no splash involved) and the Terran deploys tanks by default.
Reading that shit i thought, hm someone is mad. Reading your Signature sets it in perspective; your are mad.
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On November 08 2014 20:16 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 20:10 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 08 2014 19:56 Big J wrote:
- Ravager: wohoo, another midrange unit that cannot do shit against a turtling player nor be used against mobile units ala bio
- Lurker: wohoo, a 6range immobile splash unit in the midgame. Finally another tool that gets completely fucked by marauders, immortals, colossi; has some 9range upgrade in the lategame so you can take out canons one by one and after 10mins of burrowing and reburrowing because you can only barely outrange that stuff you may be allowed to attack a nexus.
Gets anti-slow/mech unit, unhappy it's not anti-bio. Gets anti-bio unit, unhappy it's not anti-slow/mech. Seems legit. Also, pretty sure that Ravagers are meant to do shit against turtling players. Whether they can do that effectively now is anyone's guess, but that's what alpha and beta are for... Actually, depending on the race, I think that Ravagers can do quite a lot with his special attack. Of course, everything is subject to change, but in the video 4 of them killed Void Ray instantly, and 3 of them killed Siege Tank, so it seems that they do quite a bit of damage and are great against static defense. So if enemy doesn't have like a fuck ton of Siege Tanks they might be quite good at breaking enemy defense.
On November 08 2014 20:17 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 20:10 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 08 2014 19:56 Big J wrote:
- Ravager: wohoo, another midrange unit that cannot do shit against a turtling player nor be used against mobile units ala bio
- Lurker: wohoo, a 6range immobile splash unit in the midgame. Finally another tool that gets completely fucked by marauders, immortals, colossi; has some 9range upgrade in the lategame so you can take out canons one by one and after 10mins of burrowing and reburrowing because you can only barely outrange that stuff you may be allowed to attack a nexus.
Gets anti-slow/mech unit, unhappy it's not anti-bio. Gets anti-bio unit, unhappy it's not anti-slow/mech. Seems legit. Also, pretty sure that Ravagers are meant to do shit against turtling players. Whether they can do that effectively now is anyone's guess, but that's what alpha and beta are for... My assumption is that ravagers are mostly intended to punish turtle play, siege lines in particular. The T player has to build and micro medivacs to counter that, so their effectiveness and the effectiveness of the siege line hinges on the player's skill and endurance. I like it.
I meant shit the opposite of how he meant shit. So I agree with you.
Obviously that doesn't translate over the internet. Sorry for confusion. 
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EPT
