EPTLegacy of the Void Announced - Page 113
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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vjcamarena
Spain493 Posts
On November 11 2014 04:26 SatedSC2 wrote: Protoss are being changed. WG weakened. MSC weakened. No new units or improved mobility for the current army. It's a massive nerf. I could not possibly overstate how much Protoss is getting dicked on here. Yeah, I agree that in the pre-alpha version, Toss got heavily nerfed from HOTS. What you should keep in mind though is that that's IN NO WAY the end result! They are commited to having a balanced game (see: big patch changes every year). If they nerf all that they're nerfing, they will buff other things. Don't worry about the future winrate. It will be MADE to be 50/50. Worry about they making new playstyles viable! They can always just give Zealots 50 extra life if needed, if you catch my drift. EG: Considering nerfs to Collosi/Warp In and changes to the Inmmortal, as well as ravagers killing FF, they may very well buff Zealot/Stalker or add a new early game unit. Would less reliance on Collossi/FF be good for protoss? Maybe they'll make it easier to be agressive on PvZ via zealot stalker disruptor, with disruptors playing the Widow Mine and Zealots & Stalkers playing the "Marine" (zealots add dps, Stalkers use range from behind/kill roaches)? That way protoss can get more expos. Would this be a good playstyle? | ||
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IeZaeL
Italy991 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
If the new unit they give Protoss comes out of the Gateway, they will need to nerf Warpgate. We're slowly creeping back towards Brood War here guys. With the new changes it seems Terran has every incentive to Mech and Protoss will need to multiprong and harass/deny bases. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Why cant this become the competetive aspect? Imagine the moves that we would see as viewers. Its like a big teamwork but with 1team. Imagine archonmode but 3ppl in the same team? PVT Rain, zest, partin vs maru, innovation, flash Their mechanics together. Something else. Imagine a RTS designed with archon mode in mind. Wow? The moves, the tactics. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
On November 11 2014 05:19 DinoMight wrote: If they're going to push the whole "take lots of bases and be mobile" thing, then they need to either give Protoss units that can fight unassisted by AoE or Nerf Stim bio (and potentially Roach/Hydra). If the new unit they give Protoss comes out of the Gateway, they will need to nerf Warpgate. We're slowly creeping back towards Brood War here guys. With the new changes it seems Terran has every incentive to Mech and Protoss will need to multiprong and harass/deny bases. I wish the game was more fluent and more about positioning but I just can't see it happening yet with the proposed changes. The whole protoss race in sc2 is designed to work in a deathball (unless you are doing some early allin of course). Just look at the ground units. They mostly suck alone but combined they do work. If protoss will be played as in BW then the changes need to be much more radical and to the core IMO. I haven't touched HoTS either btw. | ||
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mijagi182
Poland797 Posts
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PhoenixVoid
Canada32740 Posts
On November 11 2014 05:34 mijagi182 wrote: Hey, forgive my ignorance but are there any streams with the beta already? Nope, most we got of actual gameplay with pros was the 2v2s at BlizzCon but that's not even beta, it was alpha gameplay. | ||
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imJealous
United States1382 Posts
On November 11 2014 05:34 mijagi182 wrote: Hey, forgive my ignorance but are there any streams with the beta already? Nope, they are not even in alpha yet. Beta will start some time in the first half of 2015. On November 11 2014 05:31 Salteador Neo wrote: I wish the game was more fluent and more about positioning but I just can't see it happening yet with the proposed changes. The whole protoss race in sc2 is designed to work in a deathball (unless you are doing some early allin of course). Just look at the ground units. They mostly suck alone but combined they do work. If protoss will be played as in BW then the changes need to be much more radical and to the core IMO. I haven't touched HoTS either btw. From watching the multiplayer panel it sounds like they are still working on several ideas for a new gateway unit. I kinda wonder what would happen if they nerf colossus (reduce its base damage and give it a bonus vs light or armor = to current damage) and introduced some kind of early tech gateway splash damage unit. | ||
washikie
United States752 Posts
On November 11 2014 04:45 Hider wrote: I don't know (?) With a BW economy, I think most people would accept a higher cost-efficiency for protoss (as long as unit design is improved simultaneously). Bio-play and zerg would then be able to outexpand the protoss player and benefit economically while the toss player could trade more-cost efficiently but have less stuff. As long as the micro-interactions are fun, this could work. Moreover, if toss can stay at like 2 bases at 16th minute mark, he will have an easier time moving out in midgame which could reward more non-allinsh aggression from protoss. Vs mech-play, the roles could then be switched and the protoss would attempt to outexpand terran in midgame while terran will harass with Banshee's, Hellions and Cyclones. This could make the matchups feel a lot more diverse. I agree completely. I think the economic changes are the right direction for the game to take and yes of course races may need some balancing, like the Terran econ might be to strong vs zerg since with less saturation required and with mules still for Terran zergs normal economy advantage over terran in the early mid game will be wiped out and they will need some kind of buff to compensate maybe Terran and protoss both see mild nerfs to worker production? Or maybe lurkers will turn out to be as strong or stronger then their brood war counterparts and that will resolve the problem. Perhaps also protoss gateway units could get some love to help them deal with the fact they need to hold more bases and their big power units like colossi could receive moderate nerfs in return. Their is so much they could do if they are willing to change the econ that would reduce the death ball syndrome this game has. I'm really looking forward to it as it could radically shake up some of the very stale match ups like tvp. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9378 Posts
On November 11 2014 05:50 washikie wrote: + Show Spoiler + On November 11 2014 04:45 Hider wrote: I don't know (?) With a BW economy, I think most people would accept a higher cost-efficiency for protoss (as long as unit design is improved simultaneously). Bio-play and zerg would then be able to outexpand the protoss player and benefit economically while the toss player could trade more-cost efficiently but have less stuff. As long as the micro-interactions are fun, this could work. Moreover, if toss can stay at like 2 bases at 16th minute mark, he will have an easier time moving out in midgame which could reward more non-allinsh aggression from protoss. Vs mech-play, the roles could then be switched and the protoss would attempt to outexpand terran in midgame while terran will harass with Banshee's, Hellions and Cyclones. This could make the matchups feel a lot more diverse. I agree completely. I think the economic changes are the right direction for the game to take and yes of course races may need some balancing, like the Terran econ might be to strong vs zerg since with less saturation required and with mules still for Terran zergs normal economy advantage over terran in the early mid game will be wiped out and they will need some kind of buff to compensate maybe Terran and protoss both see mild nerfs to worker production? Or maybe lurkers will turn out to be as strong or stronger then their brood war counterparts and that will resolve the problem. Perhaps also protoss gateway units could get some love to help them deal with the fact they need to hold more bases and their big power units like colossi could receive moderate nerfs in return. Their is so much they could do if they are willing to change the econ that would reduce the death ball syndrome this game has. I'm really looking forward to it as it could radically shake up some of the very stale match ups like tvp. I was talking about BW economy, not LOTV economy, which has a very different effect on the gameplay. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2647 Posts
On November 11 2014 05:31 Salteador Neo wrote: I wish the game was more fluent and more about positioning but I just can't see it happening yet with the proposed changes. The whole protoss race in sc2 is designed to work in a deathball (unless you are doing some early allin of course). Just look at the ground units. They mostly suck alone but combined they do work. If protoss will be played as in BW then the changes need to be much more radical and to the core IMO. I haven't touched HoTS either btw. But thats basically what they are doing, nerfing WG, FF, PO, Collosus, a lot of speed buffs, Immortal shield change, WP pick up from distance, they are working really hard the core of protoss, they also are nerfing a lot of the turtle mechanics, SH, PDD, Deathballs, David Kim said that they were working in a unit that came from the nexus that helped for early game but they scraped it, so I think is quite certain that the 2nd protoss unit will be a gateway one On November 11 2014 05:01 IeZaeL wrote: So how much do new units cost? Do you know this? They haven't released that information | ||
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spajn
34 Posts
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Superbanana
2369 Posts
About new economy: Cons: Less minerals per patch does not give a bigger advantage to a player expanding, since its not easier to expand. All-ins will be as common and powerful as they are now, if not more powerful, since the punishment for losing a base is greater. And since the bases mine out faster, a timing attack that delays your own expansion can become an all in. Its simple, you get the same extra income with expansion, you invest the same. The difference is that the total minerals you can mine there is reduced. If you lose a base, you get rewarded less to rebuild and the income can only be decreased more, depending on how many patches runned out in your other bases. Games might be decided faster, with a single base falling down. There will be less come backs. Both sides expanding at a faster pace, so if you lose a base there is little chance to ever catch up :/ Pros: Its possible to expand more in SC2 (not always, but quite often). Players don't do it because its not worth it (look at Terran not landing those macro ccs). 3 base saturation is enough for T and P, so getting your 4th before your main is close to be mined out makes you more vulnerable with a small economic reward (a mule place for T, geysers for P, and a small economic boost with transfered workers). It can work. Late games can be quite interesting with mined out base everywhere, and expansions in the entire map. In some scenarios it can turn into a very scrappy game. The high econ late game (with those big banks) will be really short lived or maybe non-existant. So i agree that a change in mining efficiency might be a good idea, since it deals with the cons of the new economy. | ||
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
Certainly someone MUST come across this in beta... | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
On November 11 2014 06:54 DinoMight wrote: I also don't like that Oracle has no lasting detection now...vs DTs you can just bait the revelation then hit with the second DT.... it makes it not a viable way of detection. Certainly someone MUST come across this in beta... I think this is intended. Now, oracle doesn't counter DT as hard since you will need a cannon. Oracle will help delay to get that cannon up. | ||
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On November 11 2014 04:47 SatedSC2 wrote: They released WoL with one race being obviously OP. I don't see any reason why they couldn't possibly do the reverse. So no, I do not know perfectly well that Blizzard won't release a game with one race being obviously UP. WoL was 4 years ago. I don't know what you think you've been contributing to the discussion here, but all I see is classic troll behavior. Not just this thread. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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