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On September 20 2014 07:56 Entropy137 wrote:
I don't see how Antiga would be anything other than gimicky or bad with the current balance of the game.
Don't worry, playing on the old maps, especially the ones which aren't suited at all to modern gameplay, will shake the meta and bring up new strategies so that mapmakers stop making boring similar maps like Frost or Nimbus and get some inspiration from actual masterpieces that stood the test of time, the first example coming across my mind obviously being Steppes of War.
Or at least I've been told so.
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On September 20 2014 08:03 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 07:56 Entropy137 wrote:
I don't see how Antiga would be anything other than gimicky or bad with the current balance of the game. Don't worry, playing on the old maps, especially the ones which aren't suited at all to modern gameplay, will shake the meta and bring up new strategies so that mapmakers stop making boring similar maps like Frost or Nimbus and get some inspiration from actual masterpieces that stood the test of time, the first example coming across my mind obviously being Steppes of War. Or at least I've been told so.
Those maps got replaced and evolved to become bigger with more bases because it was impossible for zerg to do anything on them. Taking a third base for Z in a lot of those maps and defending it it just not possible with the current units. Zel'Naga with gold third for terran and mines in the choke point center, or attacking the third while boosting medicavs into the main.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the game resort to old cheese tactics on most of the old maps. Blizzard cannot honestly add the old steppes of war unmodifyed into the map pool, zerg cannot win on that map. They used to be able to do some aggresive baneling bust stuff, but mines and msc pretty much make any kind of aggressive play useless on 1/2 base without T2. It will be a TvP season, but everyone will want to watch games with Z because they have to do the craziest stuff to even attempt to win(I expect Catz to be the best zerg player in the world for the next map pool).
I think this shows has lazy blizzard actually is. People wanted maps that would change the meta/create games where strategy and planning is far more important than macro. Where you could win doing some weird thing because the opponent doesn't expect it(using the map, not DT). So instead of sitting down and theory crafting new maps that could be fun and testing them for the next season they said "Lets just pull out old dead maps and not consider the balance consequences"
Its a fun/nostalgic move, but terrible for competition, growth and balance of SC2. At least that's what it looks like at the moment. We will have to see what kind of stuff people actually do when the maps get replaced.
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DH Winter with only nostalgia maps? 
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Cloud Kingdom, Entombed Valley, Lost Temple, Atlantis Spaceship (THAT MAP WAS THE SHIT!)
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On September 20 2014 07:56 Entropy137 wrote:
I don't see how Antiga would be anything other than gimicky or bad with the current balance of the game.
I agree, Antiga would be gimicky with Protoss proxy tempests, but I don't agree it would be imbalanced in the current meta.
The stargates really only have a few places to hide, and those places are a bit obvious. Pros would scout it for sure.
Antiga was kinda gimicky already, because securing a 4th is pretty tough on this map. Most pros went for 2-3 base timings because securing a 4th was sometimes a liability.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Atlantis Spaceship is a great pick but it wasn't a ladder map. IPL had awesome maps for that season.
EDIT: ESV had them first I guess. Loved that tournament.
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On September 20 2014 08:03 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 07:56 Entropy137 wrote:
I don't see how Antiga would be anything other than gimicky or bad with the current balance of the game. Don't worry, playing on the old maps, especially the ones which aren't suited at all to modern gameplay, will shake the meta and bring up new strategies so that mapmakers stop making boring similar maps like Frost or Nimbus and get some inspiration from actual masterpieces that stood the test of time, the first example coming across my mind obviously being Steppes of War. Or at least I've been told so.
You forgot to mention how Incineration is such a macro-oriented map.
All sarcasm aside, let me ask you a question Wire. If the only troll map to get voted in was Steppes, and the rest were good/decent maps, would you still be this upset?
I know you fear the entire #dreampool ladder will be troll maps, but we don't know yet which maps will even be in the poll. Blizzard gave themselves wiggle room about which maps will be on the poll, and I think they will use it to prevent too many horrible maps.
For myself, it would be fun to play on some of them, but if Blizzard does let Scrap Station, Steppes, Kulas, etc. into the #dreampool, I will be upset alongside you.
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On September 21 2014 12:30 necrogon wrote:
Cloud Kingdom, Entombed Valley, Lost Temple, Atlantis Spaceship (THAT MAP WAS THE SHIT!)
Cloud and Entombed were great maps. LT not so much, and I never played on Atlantis.
Daybreak would be fun, but someone said SH would be broken on that map. I'm not sure how, but maybe they know something about the map I don't.
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On September 20 2014 08:37 Mafs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 08:03 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2014 07:56 Entropy137 wrote:
I don't see how Antiga would be anything other than gimicky or bad with the current balance of the game. Don't worry, playing on the old maps, especially the ones which aren't suited at all to modern gameplay, will shake the meta and bring up new strategies so that mapmakers stop making boring similar maps like Frost or Nimbus and get some inspiration from actual masterpieces that stood the test of time, the first example coming across my mind obviously being Steppes of War. Or at least I've been told so. Those maps got replaced and evolved to become bigger with more bases because it was impossible for zerg to do anything on them. Taking a third base for Z in a lot of those maps and defending it it just not possible with the current units. Zel'Naga with gold third for terran and mines in the choke point center, or attacking the third while boosting medicavs into the main. I wouldn't be surprised to see the game resort to old cheese tactics on most of the old maps. Blizzard cannot honestly add the old steppes of war unmodifyed into the map pool, zerg cannot win on that map. They used to be able to do some aggresive baneling bust stuff, but mines and msc pretty much make any kind of aggressive play useless on 1/2 base without T2. It will be a TvP season, but everyone will want to watch games with Z because they have to do the craziest stuff to even attempt to win(I expect Catz to be the best zerg player in the world for the next map pool). I think this shows has lazy blizzard actually is. People wanted maps that would change the meta/create games where strategy and planning is far more important than macro. Where you could win doing some weird thing because the opponent doesn't expect it(using the map, not DT). So instead of sitting down and theory crafting new maps that could be fun and testing them for the next season they said "Lets just pull out old dead maps and not consider the balance consequences" Its a fun/nostalgic move, but terrible for competition, growth and balance of SC2. At least that's what it looks like at the moment. We will have to see what kind of stuff people actually do when the maps get replaced.
Lol you haven't read the entire thread have you?
Wire already understands everything you stated.
His comment is dripping with sarcasm. Him and Jinro absolutely abhor the idea of bringing the 2010 maps into the #dreampool.
edit: I want to focus on the bolded part of your comment.
I agree this is a lazy move from Blizzard, but I don't think you can state what the "people" want with maps, because this was something heavily requested on Battle.net. A lot of people on that forum wanted something like this, and has been requested for two years now.
Now some people do want maps that would affect the meta, and I am sure Blizzard will do it, but for now they are taking the lazy route. Blizzard doesn't have to try and make new maps, or create/sponsor map-making tournaments. As well, perhaps they thought of their budget when implementing this idea.
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Testbug.
There is no playable map of this anywhere on Battle Net. I would love to see an official blizzard version of this, and honestly, its just as good of not better than the 3p maps out today.
#dreampool Testbug please friends
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On September 20 2014 08:03 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 07:56 Entropy137 wrote:
I don't see how Antiga would be anything other than gimicky or bad with the current balance of the game. Don't worry, playing on the old maps, especially the ones which aren't suited at all to modern gameplay, will shake the meta and bring up new strategies so that mapmakers stop making boring similar maps like Frost or Nimbus and get some inspiration from actual masterpieces that stood the test of time, the first example coming across my mind obviously being Steppes of War. Or at least I've been told so.
Well, I don't see how Antiga is a problem... It has 3features that could be a potential problem:
- rush distance: which is short, but completly line with modern maps.
- blink allin friendly: which is true for some modern maps as well
- third is a little further away: which is still a much easier third for Protoss than e.g. on MGR
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On September 21 2014 17:15 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 08:03 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2014 07:56 Entropy137 wrote:
I don't see how Antiga would be anything other than gimicky or bad with the current balance of the game. Don't worry, playing on the old maps, especially the ones which aren't suited at all to modern gameplay, will shake the meta and bring up new strategies so that mapmakers stop making boring similar maps like Frost or Nimbus and get some inspiration from actual masterpieces that stood the test of time, the first example coming across my mind obviously being Steppes of War. Or at least I've been told so. Well, I don't see how Antiga is a problem... It has 3features that could be a potential problem: - rush distance: which is short, but completly line with modern maps. - blink allin friendly: which is true for some modern maps as well - third is a little further away: which is still a much easier third for Protoss than e.g. on MGR
blink is still a big issue, and games will be forced to be cross spawn.
I think we can probably find an issue with all old maps in the current metagame. (hence, thats why they are old maps)
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On September 21 2014 17:19 iMrising wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 17:15 Big J wrote:On September 20 2014 08:03 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2014 07:56 Entropy137 wrote:
I don't see how Antiga would be anything other than gimicky or bad with the current balance of the game. Don't worry, playing on the old maps, especially the ones which aren't suited at all to modern gameplay, will shake the meta and bring up new strategies so that mapmakers stop making boring similar maps like Frost or Nimbus and get some inspiration from actual masterpieces that stood the test of time, the first example coming across my mind obviously being Steppes of War. Or at least I've been told so. Well, I don't see how Antiga is a problem... It has 3features that could be a potential problem: - rush distance: which is short, but completly line with modern maps. - blink allin friendly: which is true for some modern maps as well - third is a little further away: which is still a much easier third for Protoss than e.g. on MGR blink is still a big issue, and games will be forced to be cross spawn. I think we can probably find an issue with all old maps in the current metagame. (hence, thats why they are old maps)
Blink is a big issue in general if standard baselayouts like Antiga, KSS, Yeonsu, Star Station... make it very hard to hold. But since people can hold it on KSS, it's not worse for Antiga.
And no, old maps are not old maps because they cannot be played with the current metagame. Maps just get swapped out of mappools when they are old so that new maps can come in. That's all. There doesn't need to be any flaw with the map so that it gets rightfully replaced after some time.
When Antiga got retired it had nearly 50% in all matchups. (slightly worse for T against Z ofc)
I'm doing very hard imagining Antiga being a bigger balance issue than Deadwing (which is 40% in all matchups currently).
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Italy12247 Posts
On September 21 2014 13:14 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 12:30 necrogon wrote:
Cloud Kingdom, Entombed Valley, Lost Temple, Atlantis Spaceship (THAT MAP WAS THE SHIT!) Cloud and Entombed were great maps. LT not so much, and I never played on Atlantis. Daybreak would be fun, but someone said SH would be broken on that map. I'm not sure how, but maybe they know something about the map I don't.
The central corridor means the Zerg could defend four bases for free while also sieging the opponent's 4th.
It actually happened a lot during the hots beta.
Also yeah, blink allin is probably the biggest reason why Antiga would be horribly horribly broken, exactly like Yeonsu was.
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On September 21 2014 17:45 Teoita wrote:
Also yeah, blink allin is probably the biggest reason why Antiga would be horribly horribly broken, exactly like Yeonsu was.
Yeonsu was 55-45 in PvT, before Terran got a bunch of buffs and the MsC a bunch of blink specific nerfs.
Compare that to 60-40 Deadwing, 43-57 Foxtrot or 35-65 Nimbus.
The central corridor means the Zerg could defend four bases for free while also sieging the opponent's 4th.
That was before Warp Prism play came up, or VR/recall strategies etc. And when Protoss where still in WoL expansion mode. You can just take the other 4th base on Daybreak as Protoss in HotS.
Also the exact same setup is possible on King Sejong Station when both players take the forward 4th bases, and it hasn't broken the map, since KSS game in after Protoss understood how to beat the SH turtle.
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On September 21 2014 18:00 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 17:45 Teoita wrote:
Also yeah, blink allin is probably the biggest reason why Antiga would be horribly horribly broken, exactly like Yeonsu was. Yeonsu was 55-45 in PvT, before Terran got a bunch of buffs and the MsC a bunch of blink specific nerfs. Compare that to 60-40 Deadwing, 43-57 Foxtrot or 35-65 Nimbus. Show nested quote +The central corridor means the Zerg could defend four bases for free while also sieging the opponent's 4th. That was before Warp Prism play came up, or VR/recall strategies etc. And when Protoss where still in WoL expansion mode. You can just take the other 4th base on Daybreak as Protoss in HotS. Also the exact same setup is possible on King Sejong Station when both players take the forward 4th bases, and it hasn't broken the map, since KSS game in after Protoss understood how to beat the SH turtle.
Daybreak and KSS isn't exactly the same setup.
KSS has a potential 4th close to the opponent's 4th, but there are 2 other locations to expand from. The other 2 locations can be taken without serious threat from the SH.
Daybreak only has one other 4th to choose from because SH can hit the opponent's other 2 potential 4th base.
I see what people mean about Daybreak being broken because of SH. I think it might be true.
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On September 21 2014 20:36 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 18:00 Big J wrote:On September 21 2014 17:45 Teoita wrote:
Also yeah, blink allin is probably the biggest reason why Antiga would be horribly horribly broken, exactly like Yeonsu was. Yeonsu was 55-45 in PvT, before Terran got a bunch of buffs and the MsC a bunch of blink specific nerfs. Compare that to 60-40 Deadwing, 43-57 Foxtrot or 35-65 Nimbus. The central corridor means the Zerg could defend four bases for free while also sieging the opponent's 4th. That was before Warp Prism play came up, or VR/recall strategies etc. And when Protoss where still in WoL expansion mode. You can just take the other 4th base on Daybreak as Protoss in HotS. Also the exact same setup is possible on King Sejong Station when both players take the forward 4th bases, and it hasn't broken the map, since KSS game in after Protoss understood how to beat the SH turtle. Daybreak and KSS isn't exactly the same setup. KSS has a potential 4th close to the opponent's 4th, but there are 2 other locations to expand from. The other 2 locations can be taken without serious threat from the SH. Daybreak only has one other 4th to choose from because SH can hit the opponent's other 2 potential 4th base. I see what people mean about Daybreak being broken because of SH. I think it might be true.
You only need one 4th base that the opponent cannot hit with SHs from his 4th. You just always expand there and that's it, there is not need to have various 4th bases to choose from. Many maps do not have various 4th bases to choose from to begin with.
And when you eventually have to take that base as a 5th, it's not different from many, many, many other maps, that you eventually have to take a 5th base that can be attacked by SHs rather easily.
Even more, maps like Polar Night, Heavy Rain, Nimbus, KSS have already shown that rallying from your 4th to the opponents 3rd ord 4th base with SHs isn't broken to begin with. When Daybreak was on the ladder, the metagame just wasn't there yet. Though tbh, the metagame at that time was that Protoss would just win with mass VRs in the lategame and not being able to do so on Daybreak because of SH/static turtle was the reason why Ps thought it was an imbalanced map against Hosts. Hence, they played the game very wrong against SHs.
One last point before I leave that discussion: there is nothing wrong with a specific map favoring a specific race in the matchup's late/end-game. Basically every big map currently favors P turtle. Heavy Rain was pretty good for Z in the lategame. But that doesn't mean Frost/Alterzim/Deadwing are really broken. It just meant that Zerg has to keep in mind not to let P get out of hand too easily.
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On September 21 2014 13:09 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 08:03 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2014 07:56 Entropy137 wrote:
I don't see how Antiga would be anything other than gimicky or bad with the current balance of the game. Don't worry, playing on the old maps, especially the ones which aren't suited at all to modern gameplay, will shake the meta and bring up new strategies so that mapmakers stop making boring similar maps like Frost or Nimbus and get some inspiration from actual masterpieces that stood the test of time, the first example coming across my mind obviously being Steppes of War. Or at least I've been told so. All sarcasm aside, let me ask you a question Wire. If the only troll map to get voted in was Steppes, and the rest were good/decent maps, would you still be this upset?
As a player, I would be quite happy with that (just one veto wasted), but Steppes of War in a map pool which has a chance to be made exclusively of awesome maps would still be an insult to years of evolution of mapmaking. So yeah, I would still be upset. I can live with that, of course, but I'd be very disappointed with the community I thought to be less trollish and stupid than some other gaming ones.
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On September 22 2014 00:48 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 13:09 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:On September 20 2014 08:03 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2014 07:56 Entropy137 wrote:
I don't see how Antiga would be anything other than gimicky or bad with the current balance of the game. Don't worry, playing on the old maps, especially the ones which aren't suited at all to modern gameplay, will shake the meta and bring up new strategies so that mapmakers stop making boring similar maps like Frost or Nimbus and get some inspiration from actual masterpieces that stood the test of time, the first example coming across my mind obviously being Steppes of War. Or at least I've been told so. All sarcasm aside, let me ask you a question Wire. If the only troll map to get voted in was Steppes, and the rest were good/decent maps, would you still be this upset? As a player, I would be quite happy with that (just one veto wasted), but Steppes of War in a map pool which has a chance to be made exclusively of awesome maps would still be an insult to years of evolution of mapmaking. So yeah, I would still be upset. I can live with that, of course, but I'd be very disappointed with the community I thought to be less trollish and stupid than some other gaming ones.
Ok well lets see what the community, and Blizzard, will do with he #dreampool. All I can say is that this season will be very interesting. Lets hope we can get a great ladder experience.
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EPT
