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On September 21 2014 20:46 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 20:36 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:On September 21 2014 18:00 Big J wrote:On September 21 2014 17:45 Teoita wrote:
Also yeah, blink allin is probably the biggest reason why Antiga would be horribly horribly broken, exactly like Yeonsu was. Yeonsu was 55-45 in PvT, before Terran got a bunch of buffs and the MsC a bunch of blink specific nerfs. Compare that to 60-40 Deadwing, 43-57 Foxtrot or 35-65 Nimbus. The central corridor means the Zerg could defend four bases for free while also sieging the opponent's 4th. That was before Warp Prism play came up, or VR/recall strategies etc. And when Protoss where still in WoL expansion mode. You can just take the other 4th base on Daybreak as Protoss in HotS. Also the exact same setup is possible on King Sejong Station when both players take the forward 4th bases, and it hasn't broken the map, since KSS game in after Protoss understood how to beat the SH turtle. Daybreak and KSS isn't exactly the same setup. KSS has a potential 4th close to the opponent's 4th, but there are 2 other locations to expand from. The other 2 locations can be taken without serious threat from the SH. Daybreak only has one other 4th to choose from because SH can hit the opponent's other 2 potential 4th base. I see what people mean about Daybreak being broken because of SH. I think it might be true. You only need one 4th base that the opponent cannot hit with SHs from his 4th. You just always expand there and that's it, there is not need to have various 4th bases to choose from. Many maps do not have various 4th bases to choose from to begin with. And when you eventually have to take that base as a 5th, it's not different from many, many, many other maps, that you eventually have to take a 5th base that can be attacked by SHs rather easily. Even more, maps like Polar Night, Heavy Rain, Nimbus, KSS have already shown that rallying from your 4th to the opponents 3rd ord 4th base with SHs isn't broken to begin with. When Daybreak was on the ladder, the metagame just wasn't there yet. Though tbh, the metagame at that time was that Protoss would just win with mass VRs in the lategame and not being able to do so on Daybreak because of SH/static turtle was the reason why Ps thought it was an imbalanced map against Hosts. Hence, they played the game very wrong against SHs. One last point before I leave that discussion: there is nothing wrong with a specific map favoring a specific race in the matchup's late/end-game. Basically every big map currently favors P turtle. Heavy Rain was pretty good for Z in the lategame. But that doesn't mean Frost/Alterzim/Deadwing are really broken. It just meant that Zerg has to keep in mind not to let P get out of hand too easily.
Yeah I see your point, as long as you can get one safe 4th, it doesn't matter about the rest.
But some of the maps you stated have much better 4th options that are SH safe. We can theorize all day, but we will see what maps get chosen and how they play out.
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On September 22 2014 01:04 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 00:48 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 21 2014 13:09 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:On September 20 2014 08:03 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2014 07:56 Entropy137 wrote:
I don't see how Antiga would be anything other than gimicky or bad with the current balance of the game. Don't worry, playing on the old maps, especially the ones which aren't suited at all to modern gameplay, will shake the meta and bring up new strategies so that mapmakers stop making boring similar maps like Frost or Nimbus and get some inspiration from actual masterpieces that stood the test of time, the first example coming across my mind obviously being Steppes of War. Or at least I've been told so. All sarcasm aside, let me ask you a question Wire. If the only troll map to get voted in was Steppes, and the rest were good/decent maps, would you still be this upset? As a player, I would be quite happy with that (just one veto wasted), but Steppes of War in a map pool which has a chance to be made exclusively of awesome maps would still be an insult to years of evolution of mapmaking. So yeah, I would still be upset. I can live with that, of course, but I'd be very disappointed with the community I thought to be less trollish and stupid than some other gaming ones. Lets hope we can get a great ladder experience.
If people keep this in mind, more than anything troll or nostalgia related, this will definitely be awesome.
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I wanna use Swarm host on Steppes of War or scrap station :<
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On September 22 2014 01:28 Moonsalt wrote:
I wanna use Swarm host on Steppes of War or scrap station :<
lol, Wire I think I am slowly taking your side in this #dreampool.
SH on Steppes *shudder*…
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On September 22 2014 02:02 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 01:28 Moonsalt wrote:
I wanna use Swarm host on Steppes of War or scrap station :< lol, Wire I think I am slowly taking your side in this #dreampool. SH on Steppes *shudder*…
I think people don't realize what they could do in customs and get sick of after two games isn't suited for a whole season map pool.
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Canada11355 Posts
On September 22 2014 01:28 Moonsalt wrote:
I wanna use Swarm host on Steppes of War or scrap station :<
How are you gonna use swarm host when you get 2 rax/gate'd every game?
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Metalopolis! Loved that map. Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak were fun too.
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Its 24th,where is the voting?
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Could end up good with the chosen maps, but I fear it'll end up terrible with all 4 unplayable maps in it.
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Metalopolis please.
Open naturals ftw.
Antiga Shipyard, too.
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I finally realized how bogus is the "but what about the pros" argument. NONE of the old maps will ever get used in serious competition again, no matter whether it is Steppes of War or Ohana. The ladder pool with any of these maps is equally useless for anyone to seriously practice.
So, with this argument out of the way, we can only weep that Steppes is the only really weird map in the actual poll. It could have been useless and funny, but you will have it useless and boring, as you all wish.
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Voted purely by nostalgia-value. I ended up with Steppes, TDA, Cloud Kingdom, XNC, Ohana, Daybreak and Metalopolis. They might not be the most fair and balanced maps with today's (or their day's, lol) meta but that definitely doesn't mean they aren't going to be fun to play (:
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your Country52797 Posts
I just voted for Antiga and Steppes of war. Those are the best two maps, although I have fond memories of amazing games on Shakuras Plateau and Metalopolis.
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On September 25 2014 04:33 opisska wrote:
I finally realized how bogus is the "but what about the pros" argument. NONE of the old maps will ever get used in serious competition again, no matter whether it is Steppes of War or Ohana. The ladder pool with any of these maps is equally useless for anyone to seriously practice.
So, with this argument out of the way, we can only weep that Steppes is the only really weird map in the actual poll. It could have been useless and funny, but you will have it useless and boring, as you all wish.
You realize some players (who are the best on their teams or don't have any, don't have many connections, etc) get their main practice from ladder ?
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Please vote for Bel'Shir Vestige everyone.
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On September 25 2014 04:39 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2014 04:33 opisska wrote:
I finally realized how bogus is the "but what about the pros" argument. NONE of the old maps will ever get used in serious competition again, no matter whether it is Steppes of War or Ohana. The ladder pool with any of these maps is equally useless for anyone to seriously practice.
So, with this argument out of the way, we can only weep that Steppes is the only really weird map in the actual poll. It could have been useless and funny, but you will have it useless and boring, as you all wish. You realize some players (who are the best on their teams or don't have any, don't have many connections, etc) get their main practice from ladder ?
Just to play devil's advocate, couldn't that actually help them by forcing them to find practice partners which will probably be useful in the long run?
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i ended up voting for steppes, shakuras, taldarim, xelnaga, daybreak, and my two favorites of all time: antiga and metal. i wish they would say what iterations of the maps they're going to use though because shakuras went through a lot of changes during its stay on the ladder.. i'm assuming the latest TE of the map, but if the point is to play old maps then maybe they'll use the original?
also don't forget to vote on all your accounts not just your primary one!
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On September 25 2014 04:44 Zzzapper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2014 04:39 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 25 2014 04:33 opisska wrote:
I finally realized how bogus is the "but what about the pros" argument. NONE of the old maps will ever get used in serious competition again, no matter whether it is Steppes of War or Ohana. The ladder pool with any of these maps is equally useless for anyone to seriously practice.
So, with this argument out of the way, we can only weep that Steppes is the only really weird map in the actual poll. It could have been useless and funny, but you will have it useless and boring, as you all wish. You realize some players (who are the best on their teams or don't have any, don't have many connections, etc) get their main practice from ladder ? Just to play devil's advocate, couldn't that actually help them by forcing them to find practice partners which will probably be useful in the long run?
I don't think so. I'm by no means a good player but I always try to improve, and if the map pool is terrible to the point of irrelevantness I think I'll just skip playing SC2 for two months. And I'm sure I'm not the only "serious" player to think this way. While all the trolls who don't even ladder in the first place will maybe play 10 games instead of 2 this season and then get fed up of the terrible maps they voted for. That's why I hope the map pool we get is suitable for competitive play (and it will probably be, but I'll stand against stupid maps until october 1st).
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On September 25 2014 04:33 opisska wrote:
I finally realized how bogus is the "but what about the pros" argument. NONE of the old maps will ever get used in serious competition again, no matter whether it is Steppes of War or Ohana. The ladder pool with any of these maps is equally useless for anyone to seriously practice.
So, with this argument out of the way, we can only weep that Steppes is the only really weird map in the actual poll. It could have been useless and funny, but you will have it useless and boring, as you all wish.
Wire realized this like 20 thread pages ago. Although at first I was against him, and suggested we wait and see what goes into the poll, but now I tend to agree with him.
Some of the maps in the pool will be fun to play for a couple of weeks, but once the nostalgia passes we will be reminded Steppes et. al are horrible maps.
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EPT
