The season 4 mappool will consist of classic maps from the past, voted in by the community. Use #dreampool on Twitter or use this thread to suggest maps until September 23!
Edit:
On September 17 2014 03:00 Psione wrote: Also, to be clear, we are taking suggestions from everywhere. Those are just our official channels. We are reading Twitter, the Battle.net forums, Reddit, here, etc. So feel free to discuss the maps you'd like to see anywhere and we'll take note.
Ever wonder how Xel’Naga Caverns would play out in Heart of the Swarm? Did you discover an unbeatable strategy on Habitation Station only after it left the ladder? Wish you could get Cloud Kingdom back for one more season? Well then the upcoming ladder season is exactly what you’re looking for.
In Season 4 we’re going to open up the opportunity for past 1v1 maps to return, and also let YOU decide which maps those will be!
The Map Pool of Your Dreams
We’ve seen the feedback – you want a chance to pick your dream 1v1 map pool. On September 24, we’ll release a poll asking which maps you’d like to see in the upcoming ladder season. The seven maps that receive the most votes by October 1 will be added to the Season 4 ladder map pool.
Nominate Your Favorites
Before we open it up for voting, we’d like to hear what maps you think should be on the final poll. You can do this by jumping into our official discussion thread and sharing your thoughts, or providing your nominations on Twitter using the hashtag #dreampool. All past ladder maps are eligible. We’ll be reading your responses and will select the most popular maps for the final poll.
You’ll have through September 23 to get your nominations in, so don’t wait too long to share your favorites and let your dream become a reality.
siiiiiiick! every time i think about old maps i want to play them again because i just love both nostalgia and variety. i dont even care which maps (i mean ill probably vote but its no big deal)
wonder if putting it in the fans' hands will bother the pros? i guess it's not going to be any better or worse than the normal map selection process, it all comes down to SOMEONE'S opinion in the end...
On September 17 2014 02:53 Ovid wrote: Give Steppes of war, I want to 6 pool to GM.
i hope they use at least ONE map that's just completely incompatible with the modern meta and don't patch/alter it. people can veto it if they want but i think it would be really fun
edit: also i hope no daybreak because i found that map so boring
I see why they are doing this for the off-season or whatever you want to call it, but it's going to be pretty annoying to not be able to use the ladder anything if you want to practise competetive games. Playing Scrap Station, Antiga Shipyard etc will not be that useful when the next competetive season will hopefully have maps suited for HotS play.
Edit: Just think about how many stuff would be completely broken and only be fun for the first few days (tanks without siege mode denying ppls naturals from their own naturals, tempests shooting from one main to another, swarm hosts making people wish they were in BL infestor era at Daybreak...
On September 17 2014 02:56 Zheryn wrote: I see why they are doing this for the off-season or whatever you want to call it, but it's going to be pretty annoying to not be able to use the ladder anything if you want to practise competetive games. Playing Scrap Station, Antiga Shipyard etc will not be that useful when the next competetive season will hopefully have maps suited for HotS play.
i think the likelihood that they make minor alterations to the older maps to suit the modern meta is very very high.
On September 17 2014 02:56 Quidios wrote: Map design is an evolution, not devolution. Blizzard is still clueless when it comes to maps and their importance.
clueless? people are going nuts for this. it's a great move and fans are hyped including myself
On September 17 2014 02:57 Undead1993 wrote: Yeonsu, Cloud Kingdom and that other map i don't remember the name of. BLINK BLINK BLINK no matter what
yeonsu can fuck off, we dont need more maps where siege tanks and colossus shoot up cliffs at my minerals :/
On September 17 2014 02:56 Zheryn wrote: I see why they are doing this for the off-season or whatever you want to call it, but it's going to be pretty annoying to not be able to use the ladder anything if you want to practise competetive games. Playing Scrap Station, Antiga Shipyard etc will not be that useful when the next competetive season will hopefully have maps suited for HotS play.
On September 17 2014 02:56 Zheryn wrote: I see why they are doing this for the off-season or whatever you want to call it, but it's going to be pretty annoying to not be able to use the ladder anything if you want to practise competetive games. Playing Scrap Station, Antiga Shipyard etc will not be that useful when the next competetive season will hopefully have maps suited for HotS play.
On September 17 2014 02:56 Quidios wrote: Map design is an evolution, not devolution. Blizzard is still clueless when it comes to maps and their importance.
The game has changed significantly since these maps were on the ladder. Unless you have tried them, how do you know whether the maps would or wouldn't work with the new units and tweaks?
On September 17 2014 02:56 Zheryn wrote: I see why they are doing this for the off-season or whatever you want to call it, but it's going to be pretty annoying to not be able to use the ladder anything if you want to practise competetive games. Playing Scrap Station, Antiga Shipyard etc will not be that useful when the next competetive season will hopefully have maps suited for HotS play.
You could veto them.
I can't veto the entire map pool and even if I could that would mean no maps to play on. The ENTIRE map pool is being chosen by community polls from old maps.
On September 17 2014 02:44 Musicus wrote: The season 4 mappool will consist of classic maps from the past, voted in by the community. Use #dreampool on Twitter or use this thread to suggest maps until September 23!
Ever wonder how Xel’Naga Caverns would play out in Heart of the Swarm? Did you discover an unbeatable strategy on Habitation Station only after it left the ladder? Wish you could get Cloud Kingdom back for one more season? Well then the upcoming ladder season is exactly what you’re looking for.
In Season 4 we’re going to open up the opportunity for past 1v1 maps to return, and also let YOU decide which maps those will be!
The Map Pool of Your Dreams
We’ve seen the feedback – you want a chance to pick your dream 1v1 map pool. On September 24, we’ll release a poll asking which maps you’d like to see in the upcoming ladder season. The seven maps that receive the most votes by October 1 will be added to the Season 4 ladder map pool.
Nominate Your Favorites
Before we open it up for voting, we’d like to hear what maps you think should be on the final poll. You can do this by jumping into our official discussion thread and sharing your thoughts, or providing your nominations on Twitter using the hashtag #dreampool. All past ladder maps are eligible. We’ll be reading your responses and will select the most popular maps for the final poll.
You’ll have through September 23 to get your nominations in, so don’t wait too long to share your favorites and let your dream become a reality.
Also, to be clear, we are taking suggestions from everywhere. Those are just our official channels. We are reading Twitter, the Battle.net forums, Reddit, here, etc. So feel free to discuss the maps you'd like to see anywhere and we'll take note.
On September 17 2014 02:56 Zheryn wrote: I see why they are doing this for the off-season or whatever you want to call it, but it's going to be pretty annoying to not be able to use the ladder anything if you want to practise competetive games. Playing Scrap Station, Antiga Shipyard etc will not be that useful when the next competetive season will hopefully have maps suited for HotS play.
On September 17 2014 02:44 Musicus wrote: The season 4 mappool will consist of classic maps from the past, voted in by the community. Use #dreampool on Twitter or use this thread to suggest maps until September 23!
Ever wonder how Xel’Naga Caverns would play out in Heart of the Swarm? Did you discover an unbeatable strategy on Habitation Station only after it left the ladder? Wish you could get Cloud Kingdom back for one more season? Well then the upcoming ladder season is exactly what you’re looking for.
In Season 4 we’re going to open up the opportunity for past 1v1 maps to return, and also let YOU decide which maps those will be!
The Map Pool of Your Dreams
We’ve seen the feedback – you want a chance to pick your dream 1v1 map pool. On September 24, we’ll release a poll asking which maps you’d like to see in the upcoming ladder season. The seven maps that receive the most votes by October 1 will be added to the Season 4 ladder map pool.
Nominate Your Favorites
Before we open it up for voting, we’d like to hear what maps you think should be on the final poll. You can do this by jumping into our official discussion thread and sharing your thoughts, or providing your nominations on Twitter using the hashtag #dreampool. All past ladder maps are eligible. We’ll be reading your responses and will select the most popular maps for the final poll.
You’ll have through September 23 to get your nominations in, so don’t wait too long to share your favorites and let your dream become a reality.
Also, to be clear, we are taking suggestions from everywhere. Those are just our official channels. We are reading Twitter, the Battle.net forums, Reddit, here, etc. So feel free to discuss the maps you'd like to see anywhere and we'll take note.
ill paypal you $1000 to make sure fruitland is on the final poll
On September 17 2014 02:56 Quidios wrote: Map design is an evolution, not devolution. Blizzard is still clueless when it comes to maps and their importance.
The game has changed significantly since these maps were on the ladder. Unless you have tried them, how do you know whether the maps would or wouldn't work with the new units and tweaks?
We saw what happened when Blizzard introduced a map that was similar to map design in 2010. Whatever the name of that horrible map with super wide ramp that they had to tweak after a while because it wasn't possible to play real games on it. The naturals on the old maps are basically all like that.
What was that cool map in GSL with the beach deck chairs? I think Ohana would be a sensible enough one to put in, all I hope is that there will be a hyper aggressive map in the pool.
On September 17 2014 03:00 Psione wrote: Also, to be clear, we are taking suggestions from everywhere. Those are just our official channels. We are reading Twitter, the Battle.net forums, Reddit, here, etc. So feel free to discuss the maps you'd like to see anywhere and we'll take note.
On September 17 2014 03:04 Ovid wrote: What was that cool map in GSL with the beach deck chairs? I think Ohana would be a sensible enough one to put in, all I hope is that there will be a hyper aggressive map in the pool.
On September 17 2014 03:04 Ovid wrote: What was that cool map in GSL with the beach deck chairs? I think Ohana would be a sensible enough one to put in, all I hope is that there will be a hyper aggressive map in the pool.
On September 17 2014 03:04 Ovid wrote: What was that cool map in GSL with the beach deck chairs? I think Ohana would be a sensible enough one to put in, all I hope is that there will be a hyper aggressive map in the pool.
So all pro players are just completely fucked if they want to practice on the ladder during the off-season? The off-season which is going to be super important for practice, considering EVERYONE has to requalify for WCS?
On September 17 2014 02:56 Zheryn wrote: I see why they are doing this for the off-season or whatever you want to call it, but it's going to be pretty annoying to not be able to use the ladder anything if you want to practise competetive games. Playing Scrap Station, Antiga Shipyard etc will not be that useful when the next competetive season will hopefully have maps suited for HotS play.
Edit: Just think about how many stuff would be completely broken and only be fun for the first few days (tanks without siege mode denying ppls naturals from their own naturals, tempests shooting from one main to another, swarm hosts making people wish they were in BL infestor era at Daybreak...
Pretty sure you aren't in the WCS/GSL so I wouldn't worry too much. Just go out and have fun. It is a game after all. Personally, I'm excited for some nostalgia
On September 17 2014 03:08 Sirrush wrote: So all pro players are just completely fucked if they want to practice on the ladder during the off-season? The off-season which is going to be super important for practice, considering EVERYONE has to requalify for WCS?
This is going to suck...
why? they will rebalance the maps as necessary. after daedalus point they would be out of their minds not to. i would be truly shocked if they didnt
On September 17 2014 03:06 ZAiNs wrote: Awesome idea . Won't be played very often though at higher levels of ladder because of vetos.
what won't be played? starcraft? o_O
edit: musicus i think you should put the part about all 7 maps being classic in big red text or something to make sure people get it
A lot of people are going to veto the map on ladder because it will be imbalanced/dumb and not played in tournaments. The few people who don't veto it still won't get to play it much because of how many other people will veto it.
On September 17 2014 03:08 Sirrush wrote: So all pro players are just completely fucked if they want to practice on the ladder during the off-season? The off-season which is going to be super important for practice, considering EVERYONE has to requalify for WCS?
This is going to suck...
why? they will rebalance the maps as necessary. after daedalus point they would be out of their minds not to. i would be truly shocked if they didnt
Nothing about Xel naga caverns, Metalopolis, or Steppes of War can be balanced. They are just not competitive maps.
On September 17 2014 03:08 Sirrush wrote: So all pro players are just completely fucked if they want to practice on the ladder during the off-season? The off-season which is going to be super important for practice, considering EVERYONE has to requalify for WCS?
This is going to suck...
why? they will rebalance the maps as necessary. after daedalus point they would be out of their minds not to. i would be truly shocked if they didnt
Nothing about Xel naga caverns, Metalopolis, or Steppes of War can be balanced. They are just not competitive maps.
i still think they would undermine the integrity of the poll and remove maps before they would make the daedalus mistake again but i suppose it remains to be seen. you really think people will trollvote noncompetitive maps into the ladder?
On September 17 2014 03:08 Sirrush wrote: So all pro players are just completely fucked if they want to practice on the ladder during the off-season? The off-season which is going to be super important for practice, considering EVERYONE has to requalify for WCS?
This is going to suck...
why? they will rebalance the maps as necessary. after daedalus point they would be out of their minds not to. i would be truly shocked if they didnt
There's a specific line in Blizzard's announcement that implies to me they won't be doing any balancing on these old maps whatsoever: " Did you discover an unbeatable strategy on Habitation Station only after it left the ladder?"
Plus, you know, rebalancing the old maps would completely defeat the purpose of bringing them back, cause they would be unrecognizably altered.
besides, arent they still gathering suggestions on the final poll? i think thats a really important detail. they can simply choose not to let people vote for maps like steppes.
On September 17 2014 03:08 Sirrush wrote: So all pro players are just completely fucked if they want to practice on the ladder during the off-season? The off-season which is going to be super important for practice, considering EVERYONE has to requalify for WCS?
This is going to suck...
why? they will rebalance the maps as necessary. after daedalus point they would be out of their minds not to. i would be truly shocked if they didnt
There's a specific line in Blizzard's announcement that implies to me they won't be doing any balancing on these old maps whatsoever: " Did you discover an unbeatable strategy on Habitation Station only after it left the ladder?"
Plus, you know, rebalancing the old maps would completely defeat the purpose of bringing them back, cause they would be unrecognizably altered.
im talking about rebalancing on the level of changing rocks or ramp widths not total redesigns.
On September 17 2014 03:04 Ovid wrote: What was that cool map in GSL with the beach deck chairs? I think Ohana would be a sensible enough one to put in, all I hope is that there will be a hyper aggressive map in the pool.
On September 17 2014 02:56 Zheryn wrote: I see why they are doing this for the off-season or whatever you want to call it, but it's going to be pretty annoying to not be able to use the ladder anything if you want to practise competetive games. Playing Scrap Station, Antiga Shipyard etc will not be that useful when the next competetive season will hopefully have maps suited for HotS play.
Edit: Just think about how many stuff would be completely broken and only be fun for the first few days (tanks without siege mode denying ppls naturals from their own naturals, tempests shooting from one main to another, swarm hosts making people wish they were in BL infestor era at Daybreak...
Pretty sure you aren't in the WCS/GSL so I wouldn't worry too much. Just go out and have fun. It is a game after all. Personally, I'm excited for some nostalgia
What does my league matter? I play the game to be as good as I can and work out strategies that makes me win because I played smarter/better. I don't play the game to siege someones natural from my own natural and go "LOL LE EPIC FUN U CANT MINE HAHA I HAF SO MANY FUNS!!".
On September 17 2014 03:04 Ovid wrote: What was that cool map in GSL with the beach deck chairs? I think Ohana would be a sensible enough one to put in, all I hope is that there will be a hyper aggressive map in the pool.
On September 17 2014 03:14 brickrd wrote: besides, arent they still gathering suggestions on the final poll? i think thats a really important detail. they can simply choose not to let people vote for maps like steppes.
On September 17 2014 03:08 Sirrush wrote: So all pro players are just completely fucked if they want to practice on the ladder during the off-season? The off-season which is going to be super important for practice, considering EVERYONE has to requalify for WCS?
This is going to suck...
why? they will rebalance the maps as necessary. after daedalus point they would be out of their minds not to. i would be truly shocked if they didnt
There's a specific line in Blizzard's announcement that implies to me they won't be doing any balancing on these old maps whatsoever: " Did you discover an unbeatable strategy on Habitation Station only after it left the ladder?"
Plus, you know, rebalancing the old maps would completely defeat the purpose of bringing them back, cause they would be unrecognizably altered.
im talking about rebalancing on the level of changing rocks or ramp widths not total redesigns.
Thats still not going to change much if you can build an inbase Stargate that's closer to your opponents mineral line than yours (Metalopolis), or where one single Medivac Boost will get your across the entire map (pretty much all small maps). You cant have serious practice when every map has a specific strategy thats completely imba.
On September 17 2014 03:14 brickrd wrote: besides, arent they still gathering suggestions on the final poll? i think thats a really important detail. they can simply choose not to let people vote for maps like steppes.
On September 17 2014 03:14 Sirrush wrote:
On September 17 2014 03:10 brickrd wrote:
On September 17 2014 03:08 Sirrush wrote: So all pro players are just completely fucked if they want to practice on the ladder during the off-season? The off-season which is going to be super important for practice, considering EVERYONE has to requalify for WCS?
This is going to suck...
why? they will rebalance the maps as necessary. after daedalus point they would be out of their minds not to. i would be truly shocked if they didnt
There's a specific line in Blizzard's announcement that implies to me they won't be doing any balancing on these old maps whatsoever: " Did you discover an unbeatable strategy on Habitation Station only after it left the ladder?"
Plus, you know, rebalancing the old maps would completely defeat the purpose of bringing them back, cause they would be unrecognizably altered.
im talking about rebalancing on the level of changing rocks or ramp widths not total redesigns.
Thats still not going to change much if you can build an inbase Stargate that's closer to your opponents mineral line, than yours (Metalopolis), or where one single Medivac Boost will get your across the entire map (pretty much all small maps). You cant have serious practice when every map has a specific strategy thats completely imba.
what about the first line of my post? they can choose to offer or not offer any maps they want on the poll. if a map cant be fixed or made suitable for hots they probably wont put it on the final poll. maybe im drinking the koolaid but i dont think theyre stupid enough to use the absurdly goofy maps. even if they did it would probably be 2 at maximum and even then i think enough pros would flip shit to stop it
On September 17 2014 03:14 brickrd wrote: besides, arent they still gathering suggestions on the final poll? i think thats a really important detail. they can simply choose not to let people vote for maps like steppes.
On September 17 2014 03:14 Sirrush wrote:
On September 17 2014 03:10 brickrd wrote:
On September 17 2014 03:08 Sirrush wrote: So all pro players are just completely fucked if they want to practice on the ladder during the off-season? The off-season which is going to be super important for practice, considering EVERYONE has to requalify for WCS?
This is going to suck...
why? they will rebalance the maps as necessary. after daedalus point they would be out of their minds not to. i would be truly shocked if they didnt
There's a specific line in Blizzard's announcement that implies to me they won't be doing any balancing on these old maps whatsoever: " Did you discover an unbeatable strategy on Habitation Station only after it left the ladder?"
Plus, you know, rebalancing the old maps would completely defeat the purpose of bringing them back, cause they would be unrecognizably altered.
im talking about rebalancing on the level of changing rocks or ramp widths not total redesigns.
Thats still not going to change much if you can build an inbase Stargate that's closer to your opponents mineral line than yours (Metalopolis), or where one single Medivac Boost will get your across the entire map (pretty much all small maps). You cant have serious practice when every map has a specific strategy thats completely imba.
Yeah exactly. If you want to play for practise you'll have to play exclusively customs which is kind of lame.
I like the idea but I really hope season 4 does not last more than a month. From november (after Blizzcon) to january (before wcs 2015 season 1) it is going to be too much
On September 17 2014 03:14 brickrd wrote: besides, arent they still gathering suggestions on the final poll? i think thats a really important detail. they can simply choose not to let people vote for maps like steppes.
On September 17 2014 03:14 Sirrush wrote:
On September 17 2014 03:10 brickrd wrote:
On September 17 2014 03:08 Sirrush wrote: So all pro players are just completely fucked if they want to practice on the ladder during the off-season? The off-season which is going to be super important for practice, considering EVERYONE has to requalify for WCS?
This is going to suck...
why? they will rebalance the maps as necessary. after daedalus point they would be out of their minds not to. i would be truly shocked if they didnt
There's a specific line in Blizzard's announcement that implies to me they won't be doing any balancing on these old maps whatsoever: " Did you discover an unbeatable strategy on Habitation Station only after it left the ladder?"
Plus, you know, rebalancing the old maps would completely defeat the purpose of bringing them back, cause they would be unrecognizably altered.
im talking about rebalancing on the level of changing rocks or ramp widths not total redesigns.
Thats still not going to change much if you can build an inbase Stargate that's closer to your opponents mineral line, than yours (Metalopolis), or where one single Medivac Boost will get your across the entire map (pretty much all small maps). You cant have serious practice when every map has a specific strategy thats completely imba.
what about the first line of my post? they can choose to offer or not offer any maps they want on the poll. if a map cant be fixed or made suitable for hots they probably wont put it on the final poll. maybe im drinking the koolaid but i dont think theyre stupid enough to use the absurdly goofy maps. even if they did it would probably be 2 at maximum and even then i think enough pros would flip shit to stop it
There's nothing in the original post to suggest Blizzard will do any sort of balancing, or map picking. They simply said "The seven maps that receive the most votes by October 1 will be added to the Season 4 ladder map pool."
Yes, maybe they will change things, or veto maps, but as of right now there's 0 indication of them doing so, so until that happens I'll continue to flip my shit to make it known that their current (publicly announced) idea/competition is absolutely off the wall insane.
On September 17 2014 02:56 Zheryn wrote: I see why they are doing this for the off-season or whatever you want to call it, but it's going to be pretty annoying to not be able to use the ladder anything if you want to practise competetive games. Playing Scrap Station, Antiga Shipyard etc will not be that useful when the next competetive season will hopefully have maps suited for HotS play.
While I get that, a map pool of Steppes, Scrap Station, Jungle Basin, Metalopolis, Slag Pits, Nerazim Crypt, Kulas Ravine, and Lost Temple would be hilarious, and thus actually really good for the game, just a short-term off-season thing. I know I'd be much more inclined to watch streams on that pool.
On September 17 2014 03:04 Ovid wrote: What was that cool map in GSL with the beach deck chairs? I think Ohana would be a sensible enough one to put in, all I hope is that there will be a hyper aggressive map in the pool.
On September 17 2014 03:14 brickrd wrote: besides, arent they still gathering suggestions on the final poll? i think thats a really important detail. they can simply choose not to let people vote for maps like steppes.
On September 17 2014 03:14 Sirrush wrote:
On September 17 2014 03:10 brickrd wrote:
On September 17 2014 03:08 Sirrush wrote: So all pro players are just completely fucked if they want to practice on the ladder during the off-season? The off-season which is going to be super important for practice, considering EVERYONE has to requalify for WCS?
This is going to suck...
why? they will rebalance the maps as necessary. after daedalus point they would be out of their minds not to. i would be truly shocked if they didnt
There's a specific line in Blizzard's announcement that implies to me they won't be doing any balancing on these old maps whatsoever: " Did you discover an unbeatable strategy on Habitation Station only after it left the ladder?"
Plus, you know, rebalancing the old maps would completely defeat the purpose of bringing them back, cause they would be unrecognizably altered.
im talking about rebalancing on the level of changing rocks or ramp widths not total redesigns.
Thats still not going to change much if you can build an inbase Stargate that's closer to your opponents mineral line, than yours (Metalopolis), or where one single Medivac Boost will get your across the entire map (pretty much all small maps). You cant have serious practice when every map has a specific strategy thats completely imba.
what about the first line of my post? they can choose to offer or not offer any maps they want on the poll. if a map cant be fixed or made suitable for hots they probably wont put it on the final poll. maybe im drinking the koolaid but i dont think theyre stupid enough to use the absurdly goofy maps. even if they did it would probably be 2 at maximum and even then i think enough pros would flip shit to stop it
There's nothing in the original post to suggest Blizzard will do any sort of balancing, or map picking. They simply said "The seven maps that receive the most votes by October 1 will be added to the Season 4 ladder map pool."
Yes, maybe they will change things, or veto maps, but as of right now there's 0 indication of them doing so, so until that happens I'll continue to flip my shit to make it known that their current (publicly announced) idea/competition is absolutely off the wall insane.
i think you are confused.
we are not able to select the maps which will appear on the final poll. blizzard exclusively makes that choice and nothing they said suggests otherwise. they can leave out any maps they want
Seriously though, Shakuras Plateau is a must. That map basically set the standard for all maps to come. Just for legacies sake, it has to be one of them
On September 17 2014 03:04 Ovid wrote: What was that cool map in GSL with the beach deck chairs? I think Ohana would be a sensible enough one to put in, all I hope is that there will be a hyper aggressive map in the pool.
On September 17 2014 03:04 Ovid wrote: What was that cool map in GSL with the beach deck chairs? I think Ohana would be a sensible enough one to put in, all I hope is that there will be a hyper aggressive map in the pool.
Teoita Psione knows quite a bit about maps, he lurks quite a bit, that's his job after all, i wouldn't be surprised if he had already read that and many other articles/post/threads wrote by Lalush, the Streategy team and mapmakers.
On September 17 2014 03:04 Ovid wrote: What was that cool map in GSL with the beach deck chairs? I think Ohana would be a sensible enough one to put in, all I hope is that there will be a hyper aggressive map in the pool.
On September 17 2014 03:04 Ovid wrote: What was that cool map in GSL with the beach deck chairs? I think Ohana would be a sensible enough one to put in, all I hope is that there will be a hyper aggressive map in the pool.
Teoita Psione knows quite a bit about maps, he lurks quite a bit, that's his job after all, i wouldn't be surprised if he had already read that and many other articles/post/threads wrote by Lalush, the Streategy team and mapmakers.
Maybe, but the fact that Steppes, Metalopolis and the like have a chance of being back on ladder shows that this isn't exactly a well thought out idea
On September 17 2014 03:04 Ovid wrote: What was that cool map in GSL with the beach deck chairs? I think Ohana would be a sensible enough one to put in, all I hope is that there will be a hyper aggressive map in the pool.
Teoita Psione knows quite a bit about maps, he lurks quite a bit, that's his job after all, i wouldn't be surprised if he had already read that and many other articles/post/threads wrote by Lalush, the Streategy team and mapmakers.
Maybe, but the fact that Steppes, Metalopolis and the like have a chance of being back on ladder shows that this is the best idea ever
Fixed that for you. The games will all be stupid, but they'll be awesome stupid
On September 17 2014 03:14 brickrd wrote: besides, arent they still gathering suggestions on the final poll? i think thats a really important detail. they can simply choose not to let people vote for maps like steppes.
On September 17 2014 03:14 Sirrush wrote:
On September 17 2014 03:10 brickrd wrote:
On September 17 2014 03:08 Sirrush wrote: So all pro players are just completely fucked if they want to practice on the ladder during the off-season? The off-season which is going to be super important for practice, considering EVERYONE has to requalify for WCS?
This is going to suck...
why? they will rebalance the maps as necessary. after daedalus point they would be out of their minds not to. i would be truly shocked if they didnt
There's a specific line in Blizzard's announcement that implies to me they won't be doing any balancing on these old maps whatsoever: " Did you discover an unbeatable strategy on Habitation Station only after it left the ladder?"
Plus, you know, rebalancing the old maps would completely defeat the purpose of bringing them back, cause they would be unrecognizably altered.
im talking about rebalancing on the level of changing rocks or ramp widths not total redesigns.
Thats still not going to change much if you can build an inbase Stargate that's closer to your opponents mineral line, than yours (Metalopolis), or where one single Medivac Boost will get your across the entire map (pretty much all small maps). You cant have serious practice when every map has a specific strategy thats completely imba.
what about the first line of my post? they can choose to offer or not offer any maps they want on the poll. if a map cant be fixed or made suitable for hots they probably wont put it on the final poll. maybe im drinking the koolaid but i dont think theyre stupid enough to use the absurdly goofy maps. even if they did it would probably be 2 at maximum and even then i think enough pros would flip shit to stop it
There's nothing in the original post to suggest Blizzard will do any sort of balancing, or map picking. They simply said "The seven maps that receive the most votes by October 1 will be added to the Season 4 ladder map pool."
Yes, maybe they will change things, or veto maps, but as of right now there's 0 indication of them doing so, so until that happens I'll continue to flip my shit to make it known that their current (publicly announced) idea/competition is absolutely off the wall insane.
i think you are confused.
we are not able to select the maps which will appear on the final poll. blizzard exclusively makes that choice and nothing they said suggests otherwise. they can leave out any maps they want
to go back on this a bit, i think i was wrong to say "nothing suggests otherwise" as they do intimate that "the most popular choices" will be on the final poll, but i'm pretty sure that's public relations talk to get people hyped and simultaneously give blizz a loophole to weed out the stupid maps.
think about it, if they were going to abide "the most popular maps" as suggested in these threads then why wouldn't we just be voting already right now instead of brainstorming a "final poll"? there's literally no reason to have a suggestion stage before the poll unless they're reserving the right to make intelligent changes/omissions
On September 17 2014 03:04 Ovid wrote: What was that cool map in GSL with the beach deck chairs? I think Ohana would be a sensible enough one to put in, all I hope is that there will be a hyper aggressive map in the pool.
I have to vote for crossfire and shakuras plateau. I loved those maps. it's nice to see blizzard doing this sort of thing once in a while, to shake things up a bit.
On September 17 2014 03:04 Ovid wrote: What was that cool map in GSL with the beach deck chairs? I think Ohana would be a sensible enough one to put in, all I hope is that there will be a hyper aggressive map in the pool.
Teoita Psione knows quite a bit about maps, he lurks quite a bit, that's his job after all, i wouldn't be surprised if he had already read that and many other articles/post/threads wrote by Lalush, the Streategy team and mapmakers.
Maybe, but the fact that Steppes, Metalopolis and the like have a chance of being back on ladder shows that this isn't exactly a well thought out idea
The map(s) most certainty wouldn't be used in big tournaments to not affect the players as much. The way i see this working out is if the maps are added to the ladder without removing other maps (increasing the map pool).
Old ladder maps had issues with the evolving meta back then, but now units have been modified and added, the players have new defensive tools that allow them to do different builds than those that were available at the time. Many things have changed, an even when i know the maps will show flaws regarding balance in extended periods of time, the data gathered by us mapmakers will be invaluable, not to talk about how it may change the negative mentality/mental block that many have regarding the development of alternative metagames in nonstandard maps.
The map i would be interested in seeing the most is Kulas Ravine, because of the myriad of different features the map has, the games in that map are very interesting to see from a mapmaking perspective that show us new ideas and paradigms to work with.
Such a great idea if people don't troll vote. We could have one of the greatest map pools ever.
(my dream map pool : Ohana / Daybreak / Bel'shir Vestige / Overgrowth / Neo Planet S or Korhal Compound / Habitation Station / Shakuras Plateau or Red City or Whirlwind or Frost).
I really love the idea for Oldschoolmaps during the Off-Season.
However i would NOT do all 7 retro maps, as it would kind of fuck up the professional scene. Instead do 4 normal + 3 retro maps (at least this way Progamer can veto all the oldschool maps to practice the normal way)
And we casuals can play our oldschool maps for fun :D
PS: im hoping for Scrap station, Taldarim and Xel Naga Caverns :D
On September 17 2014 04:04 Charoisaur wrote: Jungle Basin scrap station klontas mire daedalus point alterzim stronghold taldarim altar waystation (only long spawn)
Only change is make to this list is blistering sands instead of klontas mire.
I can't wait for the discussions on which maps to veto. It's going to be amazing
Hmmm I was really happy with it initially but after seeing some people asking for Scrap Station, Desert Oasis or Steppes of War, I begin to think this could end up really bad. I hope Blizzard have enough sense to not consider unplayable maps.
On September 17 2014 04:16 Crot4le wrote: Please say that Bel'Shir Vestige is included. That was such a well-balanced map and had so many great games played on it.
Fucking incredible map.
I kinda hoped it would end up like that, a tribute to the greatest maps we ever had (Bel'shir Vestige, Cloud Kingdom, Whirlwind, Frost...), not an ye olde map party with every one trying to pick the very stupidest map we had on the map pool. People suggesting Daedalus Point, even if they are joking, set my teeth on edge.
1. Whirlwind 2. Frost 3. Cloud Kingdom --> I would say Shakuras, but split map would be far too good for mech...and three base toss...and just lead to boring games in general. I can see it now...I CAN SEE IT NOW...(also, roach max, lol). 4. Heavy Rain 5. Neo Planet S 6. Bel'shir Vestige
I can't think of any more that aren't from the current pool. Newkirk Precinct would just become a split map abomination. Icarus has the same problem that many of these maps do - lack of a defensible fourth base.
The above maps were picked with that criterion in mind, as well as the relative safety and security of a third base. I also tried to pick maps with counterattack opportunities (as many as possible) as I think this (counterattacking) should be standard on every single map -> as it leads to by far the best games. EDIT (not coincidentally, the maps with the most counterattack opportunities with a stable base progression are also the best maps we've ever had in the pool).
Bel'shir Vestige maybe, although it suffers from the "fourth" problem T_T. Or perhaps my memory are tainted by the marine/mine crusade? No, let's do #6, Bel'shir Vestige.
On September 17 2014 04:04 Charoisaur wrote: Jungle Basin scrap station klontas mire daedalus point alterzim stronghold taldarim altar waystation (only long spawn)
Only change is make to this list is blistering sands instead of klontas mire.
I can't wait for the discussions on which maps to veto. It's going to be amazing
seriously, this list should be a joke, but now that i think about it, it would be quite fun to play on this maps. It would really shake up the metagame and let you experiment with new strategies.
On September 17 2014 04:04 Charoisaur wrote: Jungle Basin scrap station klontas mire daedalus point alterzim stronghold taldarim altar waystation (only long spawn)
Only change is make to this list is blistering sands instead of klontas mire.
I can't wait for the discussions on which maps to veto. It's going to be amazing
On September 17 2014 03:04 Ovid wrote: What was that cool map in GSL with the beach deck chairs? I think Ohana would be a sensible enough one to put in, all I hope is that there will be a hyper aggressive map in the pool.
Teoita Psione knows quite a bit about maps, he lurks quite a bit, that's his job after all, i wouldn't be surprised if he had already read that and many other articles/post/threads wrote by Lalush, the Streategy team and mapmakers.
Maybe, but the fact that Steppes, Metalopolis and the like have a chance of being back on ladder shows that this isn't exactly a well thought out idea
The map(s) most certainty wouldn't be used in big tournaments to not affect the players as much. The way i see this working out is if the maps are added to the ladder without removing other maps (increasing the map pool).
Old ladder maps had issues with the evolving meta back then, but now units have been modified and added, the players have new defensive tools that allow them to do different builds than those that were available at the time. Many things have changed, an even when i know the maps will show flaws regarding balance in extended periods of time, the data gathered by us mapmakers will be invaluable, not to talk about how it may change the negative mentality/mental block that many have regarding the development of alternative metagames in nonstandard maps.
The map i would be interested in seeing the most is Kulas Ravine, because of the myriad of different features the map has, the games in that map are very interesting to see from a mapmaking perspective that show us new ideas and paradigms to work with.
Very true. I will be interested what sort of map features might actually be viable in HotS. How does photon overcharge affect "no ramp at the main" in PvP for example and "open naturals" in PvZ. I'll bet many of us will be surprised by what we find.
Personally my ideal scenario would be an alternate ladder, unranked, that has a very large map pool - maybe 20 maps, where community maps could be entered as a sort of testing ground. Highly vetoed maps would then be removed at the end of each season and no map could remain for more than a few seasons.
In any case i would pick these maps for the 7: Tal'darim Altar Xel'Naga caverns Searing Crater Korhal Compound Daybreak Neo Planet S Shakuras Plateau
I imagine we're going to get 3-4 "good' old maps, and 3-4 "funny" old maps, which seems the best, because it allows everyone to do more or less what they want.
Steps of War. Not even joking. That map has become such a legend of "bad" map design that it would be cool to see just how it plays out with today's knowledge about the game. I have a feeling it's not as bad as some people remember it, 5 rax reaper aside.
Bad designed map shouldn't be considered. 1-2 (not more) maps that would be borderline incompatible with modern standards of play (Metalopolis or Xel'naga Caverns for instance) could be considered, but the maps should be at least kinda viable if they were to be created and submitted today.
On September 17 2014 04:33 NovemberstOrm wrote: Sounds very cool.
Sounded very cool to me too, but I wouldn't find it cool anymore if I was left with one veto and still had Blistering Sands and Daedalus Point unvetoed. This shouldn't end up being the stupidest map pool ever when we have the opportunity to at last have a balanced, "best by test" and solid one, with no Alterzim Stronghold or Klontas Mire.
Some people have very strange notion of "classic" maps when suggesting some that are off the map pool for just a couple of months ...
I this is supposed to be interesting, we should really aim for the oldest of old. On top of that, I would choose the wierder among them. Yes, Xelnaga Caverns and Lost Temple were really classic and we have seen a bazillion games on them, but they were utterly boring and normal from the start. Incineration zone and Steppes of war are just small, nothing much to see there. Shakuras has been already discredited enough by all the talk about how it is the mother of standard maps and Slag Pits/Typhon Peaks I just internally hate.
So I would go for - Desert Oasis - Scrap Station - Blistering Sands - Jungle basin - Metalopolis - Delta Quadrant - Taldarim Altar
On September 17 2014 04:36 Crot4le wrote: Surprised that not many people are mentioning Frost - maybe because it's more recent and thus has less nostalgia value - but that is one cracking map.
I'd love to see it come back.
Frost is in my Dreampool.
Antiga Shipyard Bel'Shir Beach Cloud Kingdom Frost Shakuras Plateau The Shattered Temple Tal'Darim Altar
On September 17 2014 04:37 opisska wrote: Some people have very strange notion of "classic" maps when suggesting some that are off the map pool for just a couple of months ...
I this is supposed to be interesting, we should really aim for the oldest of old. On top of that, I would choose the wierder among them. Yes, Xelnaga Caverns and Lost Temple were really classic and we have seen a bazillion games on them, but they were utterly boring and normal from the start. Incineration zone and Steppes of war are just small, nothing much to see there. Shakuras has been already discredited enough by all the talk about how it is the mother of standard maps and Slag Pits/Typhon Peaks I just internally hate.
So I would go for - Desert Oasis - Scrap Station - Blistering Sands - Jungle basin - Metalopolis - Delta Quadrant - Taldarim Altar
Let the slaugther begin!
We have a very different notion of "interesting". The maps you suggest could be suited for unranked ladder, but they should respect hardcore players too. I'd rather play LoL than play Blistering Sands again -and that's saying something. Sorry to say that, but your post is an epitome of how what is (was ?) a great idea from Blizzard could end up badly if people just think about fun and nostalgia and forget they'll have to play actual games on these maps for a freaking whole season.
On September 17 2014 04:37 opisska wrote: Some people have very strange notion of "classic" maps when suggesting some that are off the map pool for just a couple of months ...
I this is supposed to be interesting, we should really aim for the oldest of old. On top of that, I would choose the wierder among them. Yes, Xelnaga Caverns and Lost Temple were really classic and we have seen a bazillion games on them, but they were utterly boring and normal from the start. Incineration zone and Steppes of war are just small, nothing much to see there. Shakuras has been already discredited enough by all the talk about how it is the mother of standard maps and Slag Pits/Typhon Peaks I just internally hate.
So I would go for - Desert Oasis - Scrap Station - Blistering Sands - Jungle basin - Metalopolis - Delta Quadrant - Taldarim Altar
Let the slaugther begin!
Well, you still want to have players that play the maps...
On September 17 2014 04:36 Crot4le wrote: Surprised that not many people are mentioning Frost - maybe because it's more recent and thus has less nostalgia value - but that is one cracking map.
I'd love to see it come back.
Frost is extremely good. But I think Whirlwind turned out more balanced. And TDA is THE Classic big 4player map. I think that's why a lot of people do not name it.
People who say old maps is shit... (Kappa) (thinking of the good ol days when I liked Starcraft enough to actually play all day long)Memories, sweet memories. Can't wait, much hype!
The intention is very much WoL bad maps, but tbh a Daybreak, Whirlwind, Frost, Cloud Kingdom, Metropolis, Ohana, Akilon Wastes type map pool would be perfectly playable. Probably not the intention of this feature though.
On September 17 2014 04:44 Faefae wrote: Awsome for the fans! Not so much for the progamers
Progamers are all on vacation with no wcs events in December. And no one is forcing tournaments to use steps of war or whatever gets voted. So frankly, who cares what progamers think.
3 "weird" maps from the beginning of wol would be fun to play on and very interesting to see how they would play out. And if you want to play only boring standard games you can just veto them so everyone will be happy. In addition to them there are 4 solid maps which will make the mappool a nice mix between "standard" and "nonstandard" maps.
On September 17 2014 04:44 Faefae wrote: Awsome for the fans! Not so much for the progamers
Progamers are all on vacation with no wcs events in December. And no one is forcing tournaments to use steps of war or whatever gets voted. So frankly, who cares what progamers think.
I mean, they are training on ladder, and there'll be a lot of tourneys in november, as usual !
OK, I was enthusiastic when I first read it, now I'm just afraid. Do people really wish they played on Jungle Basin instead of Overgrowth ? Choose Blistering Sands over Korhal Compound or Frost, two maps I barely ever saw on the wishlists ? I don't understand. What's the point of picking up "fun" maps (I don't think they'd be fun at all) that will get vetoed by everyone once people realize 2 rax, proxy reapers or immortal all-ins are unstoppable on them or that have no viable third ? I'm mesmerized by this nonsense.
Tal Darim Altar Shakuras Plateau Daybreak Whirlwind Antigua Shipyard Shattered Temple For my last map I'll go really old...Tbh I want to put Scrap Station, I was always a fan although I felt like one of the few, but it was so different to most other bland maps. However the thought of oracles, speedyvacs and regen mutas scares the crap out of me, so I'll go.. Blistering sands for the Lols
On September 17 2014 03:08 Sirrush wrote: So all pro players are just completely fucked if they want to practice on the ladder during the off-season? The off-season which is going to be super important for practice, considering EVERYONE has to requalify for WCS?
This is going to suck...
why? they will rebalance the maps as necessary. after daedalus point they would be out of their minds not to. i would be truly shocked if they didnt
Nothing about Xel naga caverns, Metalopolis, or Steppes of War can be balanced. They are just not competitive maps.
you really think people will trollvote noncompetitive maps into the ladder?
Never underestimate how stupid people are. Just see some of the leaders who were chosen by vote. Blizzard will have to monitor the prelist very carefully if we don't want to end up with a Daedalus Point / Steppes of War slugfest. A lot of posts I read here sound like "Duh Blistering Sands again would be so fun, ha ha ha so much nostalgia" without any sensible thought on an actual game on the map.
On September 17 2014 03:08 Sirrush wrote: So all pro players are just completely fucked if they want to practice on the ladder during the off-season? The off-season which is going to be super important for practice, considering EVERYONE has to requalify for WCS?
This is going to suck...
why? they will rebalance the maps as necessary. after daedalus point they would be out of their minds not to. i would be truly shocked if they didnt
Nothing about Xel naga caverns, Metalopolis, or Steppes of War can be balanced. They are just not competitive maps.
you really think people will trollvote noncompetitive maps into the ladder?
Never underestimate how stupid people are. Just see some of the leaders they chose by vote. Blizzard will have to monitor the prelist very carefully if we don't want to end up with a Daedalus Point / Steppes of War slugfest. A lot of posts I read here sound like "Duh Blistering Sands again would be so fun, ha ha ha so much nostalgia" without any sensible thought on an actual game on the map.
Hm, what if they just did the #dreampool for the Unranked Ladder?
On September 17 2014 03:08 Sirrush wrote: So all pro players are just completely fucked if they want to practice on the ladder during the off-season? The off-season which is going to be super important for practice, considering EVERYONE has to requalify for WCS?
This is going to suck...
why? they will rebalance the maps as necessary. after daedalus point they would be out of their minds not to. i would be truly shocked if they didnt
Nothing about Xel naga caverns, Metalopolis, or Steppes of War can be balanced. They are just not competitive maps.
you really think people will trollvote noncompetitive maps into the ladder?
Never underestimate how stupid people are. Just see some of the leaders they chose by vote. Blizzard will have to monitor the prelist very carefully if we don't want to end up with a Daedalus Point / Steppes of War slugfest. A lot of posts I read here sound like "Duh Blistering Sands again would be so fun, ha ha ha so much nostalgia" without any sensible thought on an actual game on the map.
Hm, what if they just did the #dreampool for the Unranked Ladder?
That's not what is being suggested. If they're going full #dreampool (or is it #nightmarepool ?), yeah they should definitely consider using it only for unranked ladder. Otherwise, careful preselection and some tweaks on the maps will be really needed if they want to offer an interesting and fair competitive gaming environment for the ladder, which is kinda what ladder is about. They have to care about the viability of the maps we'll play on for roughly two months.
On September 17 2014 03:08 Sirrush wrote: So all pro players are just completely fucked if they want to practice on the ladder during the off-season? The off-season which is going to be super important for practice, considering EVERYONE has to requalify for WCS?
This is going to suck...
why? they will rebalance the maps as necessary. after daedalus point they would be out of their minds not to. i would be truly shocked if they didnt
Nothing about Xel naga caverns, Metalopolis, or Steppes of War can be balanced. They are just not competitive maps.
you really think people will trollvote noncompetitive maps into the ladder?
Never underestimate how stupid people are. Just see some of the leaders who were chosen by vote. Blizzard will have to monitor the prelist very carefully if we don't want to end up with a Daedalus Point / Steppes of War slugfest. A lot of posts I read here sound like "Duh Blistering Sands again would be so fun, ha ha ha so much nostalgia" without any sensible thought on an actual game on the map.
I am pretty sure the ones that want steppes/daedalus/blistering will know how their games will play out, if the maps get selected. They want the slugfest you mentioned.
But you are correct, Blizzard will probably remove some maps that just won't be viable. I suspect Steppes won't be there. Its like fighting in an elevator.
On September 17 2014 03:08 Sirrush wrote: So all pro players are just completely fucked if they want to practice on the ladder during the off-season? The off-season which is going to be super important for practice, considering EVERYONE has to requalify for WCS?
This is going to suck...
why? they will rebalance the maps as necessary. after daedalus point they would be out of their minds not to. i would be truly shocked if they didnt
Nothing about Xel naga caverns, Metalopolis, or Steppes of War can be balanced. They are just not competitive maps.
you really think people will trollvote noncompetitive maps into the ladder?
Never underestimate how stupid people are. Just see some of the leaders they chose by vote. Blizzard will have to monitor the prelist very carefully if we don't want to end up with a Daedalus Point / Steppes of War slugfest. A lot of posts I read here sound like "Duh Blistering Sands again would be so fun, ha ha ha so much nostalgia" without any sensible thought on an actual game on the map.
Hm, what if they just did the #dreampool for the Unranked Ladder?
That's not what is being suggested. If they're going full #dreampool, yeah they should definitely consider using it only for unranked ladder. Otherwise, careful preselection and some tweaks on the maps will be really needed if they want to offer an interesting and fair competitive gaming environment for the ladder, which is kinda what ladder is about.
Honestly, I would love to go full #dreampool for Unranked Ladder. Just bring back all the fucking classics and have everyone revel in the hilariously fun misery that were previous ladder maps haha. It could be a lot of fun from time to time during a normal ladder season.
No one uses unranked play for serious practice anyway, so it seems like a perfect fit.
On September 17 2014 03:08 Sirrush wrote: So all pro players are just completely fucked if they want to practice on the ladder during the off-season? The off-season which is going to be super important for practice, considering EVERYONE has to requalify for WCS?
This is going to suck...
why? they will rebalance the maps as necessary. after daedalus point they would be out of their minds not to. i would be truly shocked if they didnt
Nothing about Xel naga caverns, Metalopolis, or Steppes of War can be balanced. They are just not competitive maps.
you really think people will trollvote noncompetitive maps into the ladder?
Never underestimate how stupid people are. Just see some of the leaders they chose by vote. Blizzard will have to monitor the prelist very carefully if we don't want to end up with a Daedalus Point / Steppes of War slugfest. A lot of posts I read here sound like "Duh Blistering Sands again would be so fun, ha ha ha so much nostalgia" without any sensible thought on an actual game on the map.
Hm, what if they just did the #dreampool for the Unranked Ladder?
That's not what is being suggested. If they're going full #dreampool, yeah they should definitely consider using it only for unranked ladder. Otherwise, careful preselection and some tweaks on the maps will be really needed if they want to offer an interesting and fair competitive gaming environment for the ladder, which is kinda what ladder is about.
Honestly, I would love to go full #dreampool for Unranked Ladder. Just bring back all the fucking classics and have everyone revel in the hilariously fun misery that were previous ladder maps haha. It could be a lot of fun from time to time during a normal ladder season.
No one uses unranked play for serious practice anyway, so it seems like a perfect fit.
That would definitely be great. They should consider doing it while just making the 3 rotation maps in the ranked map pool old classic ones. Even I would jump by to play a game on Scrap Station or Jungle Basin if this is unranked ladder -but I'd rather eat my own arm than play it on ranked ladder.
On September 17 2014 03:08 Sirrush wrote: So all pro players are just completely fucked if they want to practice on the ladder during the off-season? The off-season which is going to be super important for practice, considering EVERYONE has to requalify for WCS?
This is going to suck...
why? they will rebalance the maps as necessary. after daedalus point they would be out of their minds not to. i would be truly shocked if they didnt
Nothing about Xel naga caverns, Metalopolis, or Steppes of War can be balanced. They are just not competitive maps.
you really think people will trollvote noncompetitive maps into the ladder?
Never underestimate how stupid people are. Just see some of the leaders they chose by vote. Blizzard will have to monitor the prelist very carefully if we don't want to end up with a Daedalus Point / Steppes of War slugfest. A lot of posts I read here sound like "Duh Blistering Sands again would be so fun, ha ha ha so much nostalgia" without any sensible thought on an actual game on the map.
Hm, what if they just did the #dreampool for the Unranked Ladder?
That's not what is being suggested. If they're going full #dreampool, yeah they should definitely consider using it only for unranked ladder. Otherwise, careful preselection and some tweaks on the maps will be really needed if they want to offer an interesting and fair competitive gaming environment for the ladder, which is kinda what ladder is about.
Honestly, I would love to go full #dreampool for Unranked Ladder. Just bring back all the fucking classics and have everyone revel in the hilariously fun misery that were previous ladder maps haha. It could be a lot of fun from time to time during a normal ladder season.
No one uses unranked play for serious practice anyway, so it seems like a perfect fit.
You're acting as if there is a difference between ranked and unranked other than not recording leagues and points. You can't change the map pool of one without the other because they share the same matchmaking queue.
You make an important point. So no, play stupid maps on custom games. Ladder should be a fair and competitive gaming environment.
On September 17 2014 03:08 Sirrush wrote: So all pro players are just completely fucked if they want to practice on the ladder during the off-season? The off-season which is going to be super important for practice, considering EVERYONE has to requalify for WCS?
This is going to suck...
why? they will rebalance the maps as necessary. after daedalus point they would be out of their minds not to. i would be truly shocked if they didnt
Nothing about Xel naga caverns, Metalopolis, or Steppes of War can be balanced. They are just not competitive maps.
you really think people will trollvote noncompetitive maps into the ladder?
Never underestimate how stupid people are. Just see some of the leaders they chose by vote. Blizzard will have to monitor the prelist very carefully if we don't want to end up with a Daedalus Point / Steppes of War slugfest. A lot of posts I read here sound like "Duh Blistering Sands again would be so fun, ha ha ha so much nostalgia" without any sensible thought on an actual game on the map.
Hm, what if they just did the #dreampool for the Unranked Ladder?
That's not what is being suggested. If they're going full #dreampool, yeah they should definitely consider using it only for unranked ladder. Otherwise, careful preselection and some tweaks on the maps will be really needed if they want to offer an interesting and fair competitive gaming environment for the ladder, which is kinda what ladder is about.
Honestly, I would love to go full #dreampool for Unranked Ladder. Just bring back all the fucking classics and have everyone revel in the hilariously fun misery that were previous ladder maps haha. It could be a lot of fun from time to time during a normal ladder season.
No one uses unranked play for serious practice anyway, so it seems like a perfect fit.
You're acting as if there is a difference between ranked and unranked other than not recording leagues and points. You can't change the map pool of one without the other because they share the same matchmaking queue.
On September 17 2014 03:08 Sirrush wrote: So all pro players are just completely fucked if they want to practice on the ladder during the off-season? The off-season which is going to be super important for practice, considering EVERYONE has to requalify for WCS?
This is going to suck...
why? they will rebalance the maps as necessary. after daedalus point they would be out of their minds not to. i would be truly shocked if they didnt
Nothing about Xel naga caverns, Metalopolis, or Steppes of War can be balanced. They are just not competitive maps.
you really think people will trollvote noncompetitive maps into the ladder?
Never underestimate how stupid people are. Just see some of the leaders they chose by vote. Blizzard will have to monitor the prelist very carefully if we don't want to end up with a Daedalus Point / Steppes of War slugfest. A lot of posts I read here sound like "Duh Blistering Sands again would be so fun, ha ha ha so much nostalgia" without any sensible thought on an actual game on the map.
Hm, what if they just did the #dreampool for the Unranked Ladder?
That's not what is being suggested. If they're going full #dreampool, yeah they should definitely consider using it only for unranked ladder. Otherwise, careful preselection and some tweaks on the maps will be really needed if they want to offer an interesting and fair competitive gaming environment for the ladder, which is kinda what ladder is about.
Honestly, I would love to go full #dreampool for Unranked Ladder. Just bring back all the fucking classics and have everyone revel in the hilariously fun misery that were previous ladder maps haha. It could be a lot of fun from time to time during a normal ladder season.
No one uses unranked play for serious practice anyway, so it seems like a perfect fit.
You're acting as if there is a difference between ranked and unranked other than not recording leagues and points. You can't change the map pool of one without the other because they share the same matchmaking queue.
So disconnect them for a season or something? idk, but I would like to see something like this legitimately happen in a way that people can just have nostalgiac fun and not get screwed when trying to play for real. Unranked ladder just seems like the perfect platform for this, even if it takes a few adjustments.
Every season, there's a few good maps and then a few maps that no one wants to play. I wish they would just use "classic" maps to replace the ones that no one wants to play. Ugh.
That moment when I realized this great idea maybe wasn't this great. This makes me sad because the intention is really sweet, but the result could be horrible. Remember this is the WCS off-season after which everyone will have to qualify again, so the ladder not offering a good competitive environment would be a catastrophe for a lot of players who don't have solid players to practice with. I hope they consider only replacing 3 maps of the current pool by "classics", so that :
- the odds of stupid maps being added will be lower. - we're ensured a competitive map pool.
On September 17 2014 05:31 opisska wrote: The biggest message here is actually that if they wanted to do something fun, they shouldn't have bothered posting about it on TL in the first place.
They could do the kind of things you find fun for a week, with only really broken unplayable terrible maps, like the neverending birthday party (the ten days during which workers wore hats). After a week of laddering on those maps, you'll be relieved not to have to play them for two long months.
On September 17 2014 05:31 opisska wrote: The biggest message here is actually that if they wanted to do something fun, they shouldn't have bothered posting about it on TL in the first place.
I'd rather phrase it with "most solid maps of all time", which doesn't sound as negative. Is it wrong to want great maps that stood the test of time back instead of horrible early Blizzard maps everyone complained about ? If you ate shit when you were a toddler, would it taste good to you today because it would make you feel nostalgic ?
Never. Ever. Ask. People. And I thought we were a clever community... If Steppes of War ends high in the polls... Well, we as a community will go as low in my esteem as far right nationalist hunters or LoL players. #nightmarepool
I'd rather phrase it with "most solid maps of all time", which doesn't sound as negative. Is it wrong to want great maps that stood the test of time back instead of horrible early Blizzard maps everyone complained about ? If you ate shit when you were a toddler, would it taste good to you today because it would make you feel nostalgic ?
On September 17 2014 02:44 Musicus wrote: The season 4 mappool will consist of classic maps from the past, voted in by the community. Use #dreampool on Twitter or use this thread to suggest maps until September 23!
Ever wonder how Xel’Naga Caverns would play out in Heart of the Swarm? Did you discover an unbeatable strategy on Habitation Station only after it left the ladder? Wish you could get Cloud Kingdom back for one more season? Well then the upcoming ladder season is exactly what you’re looking for.
In Season 4 we’re going to open up the opportunity for past 1v1 maps to return, and also let YOU decide which maps those will be!
The Map Pool of Your Dreams
We’ve seen the feedback – you want a chance to pick your dream 1v1 map pool. On September 24, we’ll release a poll asking which maps you’d like to see in the upcoming ladder season. The seven maps that receive the most votes by October 1 will be added to the Season 4 ladder map pool.
Nominate Your Favorites
Before we open it up for voting, we’d like to hear what maps you think should be on the final poll. You can do this by jumping into our official discussion thread and sharing your thoughts, or providing your nominations on Twitter using the hashtag #dreampool. All past ladder maps are eligible. We’ll be reading your responses and will select the most popular maps for the final poll.
You’ll have through September 23 to get your nominations in, so don’t wait too long to share your favorites and let your dream become a reality.
Also, to be clear, we are taking suggestions from everywhere. Those are just our official channels. We are reading Twitter, the Battle.net forums, Reddit, here, etc. So feel free to discuss the maps you'd like to see anywhere and we'll take note.
On September 17 2014 05:44 lolfail9001 wrote: Give Taldarim Altar, and i am a happy guy. Mainly because i do not play toss, so would never have to deal with taldarim pvp :D
On September 17 2014 05:44 lolfail9001 wrote: Give Taldarim Altar, and i am a happy guy. Mainly because i do not play toss, so would never have to deal with taldarim pvp :D
Metalopolis and Taltarim altar! Defending all your expansions in the very late game in Taltarim was so sick hard and I want to feel that stress again :D I'm a bit surprised about all the negative feedback.
On September 17 2014 05:54 Koivusto wrote: I'm a bit surprised about all the negative feedback.
The idea and the intention are sweet, but when Psione tweets that Steppes of War is being quoted a lot, I fear the consequences. Seriously. #nightmarepool
On September 17 2014 05:54 Koivusto wrote: I'm a bit surprised about all the negative feedback.
The idea and the intention are sweet, but when Psione tweets that Steppes of War is being quoted a lot, I fear the consequences. Seriously. #nightmarepool
Especially because about 99% of those picks are troll picks
The idea and the intention are sweet, but when Psione tweets that Steppes of War is being quoted a lot, I fear the consequences. Seriously. #nightmarepool
Well yeah in my level it's still more about mechanics and stuff than about the exact map so it's easier for me to talk about nostalgia. I think pro opinions could be in order?
On September 17 2014 05:44 lolfail9001 wrote: Give Taldarim Altar, and i am a happy guy. Mainly because i do not play toss, so would never have to deal with taldarim pvp :D
3 Pylon block PvZ.
Why not. Has is finally gonna have a shot at winning WCS NA.
On September 17 2014 05:54 Koivusto wrote: I'm a bit surprised about all the negative feedback.
The idea and the intention are sweet, but when Psione tweets that Steppes of War is being quoted a lot, I fear the consequences. Seriously. #nightmarepool
Especially because about 99% of those picks are troll picks
18 year old Justin Bieber fans who have repeated three years in their scolarity, barely read and only watch reality shows are deemed as suitable and mature as me to elect my representatives. So trolls being considered for the constitution of what could have been a great map pool doesn't really shock me.
The idea and the intention are sweet, but when Psione tweets that Steppes of War is being quoted a lot, I fear the consequences. Seriously. #nightmarepool
I think pro opinions could be in order?
If the idea is really going through, an interview/poll with pros about the maps they'd like to play on ladder could be interesting.
On September 17 2014 05:44 lolfail9001 wrote: Give Taldarim Altar, and i am a happy guy. Mainly because i do not play toss, so would never have to deal with taldarim pvp :D
On September 17 2014 05:44 lolfail9001 wrote: Give Taldarim Altar, and i am a happy guy. Mainly because i do not play toss, so would never have to deal with taldarim pvp :D
3 Pylon block PvZ.
Finally some not-completely-mechanical-challenges :D
ugh no, please, not steppes of war. That map was inherently flawed, a new meta and new units cannot fix that map. You can just bounce between the two entrances to the main and automatically pull the defender out of position...
Also, desert oasis, it's fun and all but the 3rd bases are just simply wayy to far for that map to ever work.
On September 17 2014 06:10 TheFish7 wrote: ugh no, please, not steppes of war. That map was inherently flawed, a new meta and new units cannot fix that map. You can just bounce between the two entrances to the main and automatically pull the defender out of position...
Also, desert oasis, it's fun and all but the 3rd bases are just simply wayy to far for that map to ever work.
They'll come back to their senses and end up only proposing playable maps for vote. Otherwise the ladder experience will be flawed for a full season.
The idea and the intention are sweet, but when Psione tweets that Steppes of War is being quoted a lot, I fear the consequences. Seriously. #nightmarepool
Well yeah in my level it's still more about mechanics and stuff than about the exact map so it's easier for me to talk about nostalgia. I think pro opinions could be in order?
You say that now, play a season on steppes of war and get back to us on that.
But in all honesty, looking forward to seeing the and will even tolerate steppes for another season too.
ugh no, please, not steppes of war. That map was inherently flawed, a new meta and new units cannot fix that map. You can just bounce between the two entrances to the main and automatically pull the defender out of position...
You are thinking if blistering sands. If that makes the pool, I'm going to abuse the hell out of the rocks. Protoss beware
I will admit, this will probably get me to play a lot more again. I was fairly disappointed with the ladder this season and it will be fun to play old maps that I actually liked again.
On September 17 2014 06:30 PoulsenB wrote: Can't decide if this is awesome or awful... though it would be nice to see a map like Whirlwind back. Also, Star Station. I really liked that map.
As long as the maps we can vote for are selected to be at least somewhat playable (some carefully chosen maps from late WoL or great HotS classics) it'll definitely be awesome. If Blizzard listens to the dumb trolls -don't worry, if Steppes of War is in the list, some idiot will bot it to the top-, it'll definitely be awful.
On September 17 2014 02:53 Ovid wrote: Give Steppes of war, I want to 6 pool to GM.
i hope they use at least ONE map that's just completely incompatible with the modern meta and don't patch/alter it. people can veto it if they want but i think it would be really fun
edit: also i hope no daybreak because i found that map so boring
Daybreak, Ohana and the one that won the TLMC basically forced this game towards what it is map design wise and killed the game for me. :/\
On September 17 2014 06:38 oParamounto wrote: Cant believe no one wants Lost Temple back !! imaging you could SH from your nat to almost anywhere on the map lol
I played Zerg in the early wings of liberty days. I have no trouble believing that nobody wants it back.
On September 17 2014 06:10 TheFish7 wrote: ugh no, please, not steppes of war. That map was inherently flawed, a new meta and new units cannot fix that map. You can just bounce between the two entrances to the main and automatically pull the defender out of position...
Also, desert oasis, it's fun and all but the 3rd bases are just simply wayy to far for that map to ever work.
They'll come back to their senses and end up only proposing playable maps for vote. Otherwise the ladder experience will be flawed for a full season.
Even progamers are playing dumb. What are they thinking ? That a good old game on Steppes of War will prepare them well to the next WCS season ? I wonder how many people will still find the situation funny after a week if bad maps actually make it to the map pool.
Seriously, that map doesn't look THAT imbalanced. you can quite easily take the third once you have destroyed the rocks. the other bases are a little harder to take but its still managable. am i missing something or why does everyone say that map is so imbalanced. Compared to maps like blistering sands or incineration zone the map seems extremely well balanced
Seriously, that map doesn't look THAT imbalanced. you can quite easily take the third once you have destroyed the rocks. the other bases are a little harder to take but its still managable. am i missing something or why does everyone say that map is so imbalanced. Compared to maps like blistering sands or incineration zone the map seems extremely well balanced
Seriously, that map doesn't look THAT imbalanced. you can quite easily take the third once you have destroyed the rocks. the other bases are a little harder to take but its still managable. am i missing something or why does everyone say that map is so imbalanced. Compared to maps like blistering sands or incineration zone the map seems extremely well balanced
To be fair, the problem with blistering sands wasn't that it was small...
Seriously, that map doesn't look THAT imbalanced. you can quite easily take the third once you have destroyed the rocks. the other bases are a little harder to take but its still managable. am i missing something or why does everyone say that map is so imbalanced. Compared to maps like blistering sands or incineration zone the map seems extremely well balanced
Shit smells good compared to shit with vomit on it. The rush distance is stupidly short, you realize that ? The map is plain unplayable.
On September 17 2014 07:03 [PkF] Wire wrote: Even progamers are playing dumb. What are they thinking ? That a good old game on Steppes of War will prepare them well to the next WCS season ? I wonder how many people will still find the situation funny after a week if bad maps actually make it to the map pool.
why is it dumb to have 2-3 weird maps in the pool? it will be very interesting to see how they will play out on the new maps and if you don't want to play them anymore you can veto them. Nobody wants a mappool with only maps from the first season of wol but 2-3 maps will be very funny
On September 17 2014 07:03 [PkF] Wire wrote: Even progamers are playing dumb. What are they thinking ? That a good old game on Steppes of War will prepare them well to the next WCS season ? I wonder how many people will still find the situation funny after a week if bad maps actually make it to the map pool.
why is it dumb to have 2-3 weird maps in the pool? it will be very interesting to see how they will play out on the new maps and if you don't want to play them anymore you can veto them. Nobody wants a mappool with only maps from the first season of wol but 2-3 maps will be very funny
We just had that. Deadwing and Foxtrot close positions. It just meant Protoss got Sentry/Immortal freewins.
Seriously, that map doesn't look THAT imbalanced. you can quite easily take the third once you have destroyed the rocks. the other bases are a little harder to take but its still managable. am i missing something or why does everyone say that map is so imbalanced. Compared to maps like blistering sands or incineration zone the map seems extremely well balanced
On steppes of war my main strategy was a 12 drone rush. (double extractor trick)
On September 17 2014 07:03 [PkF] Wire wrote: Even progamers are playing dumb. What are they thinking ? That a good old game on Steppes of War will prepare them well to the next WCS season ? I wonder how many people will still find the situation funny after a week if bad maps actually make it to the map pool.
why is it dumb to have 2-3 weird maps in the pool? it will be very interesting to see how they will play out on the new maps and if you don't want to play them anymore you can veto them. Nobody wants a mappool with only maps from the first season of wol but 2-3 maps will be very funny
Maybe because the maps we're talking about aren't just weird, which can be in a great way (Habitation Station is a weird, unusual but solid map), but they're horrible maps on which games will be plain boring and abusive. I have no problems with seeing weird maps if they're good, which they usually aren't, but terrible maps shouldn't even be considered.
Steppes of War , I am not even joking Metalopolis, cross position only Xel'Naga caverns
I would like to make a plea for the 4v4 map pool : why did you never try to introduce CruX breeze, the TLMC 2 grand winner, a fucking great map that reminds us very strongly of BGH. Damn, I even play that map versus computers just for fun ><
And among some slightly less liked : Shattered Temple Neo Planet S
Seriously, that map doesn't look THAT imbalanced. you can quite easily take the third once you have destroyed the rocks. the other bases are a little harder to take but its still managable. am i missing something or why does everyone say that map is so imbalanced. Compared to maps like blistering sands or incineration zone the map seems extremely well balanced
I agree with you it doesn't look that bad, except that the #1 problem was the extremely short rush distance. Like, really super super short. It was hilarious
I guess the moral of this #nightmarepool will boil down to "never allow people to choose", which usually ends up with Steppes of War on ladder because "it will be so much fun !" or the likes of Haider to be in power because "sometimes that guy makes good points".
On September 17 2014 06:10 TheFish7 wrote: ugh no, please, not steppes of war. That map was inherently flawed, a new meta and new units cannot fix that map. You can just bounce between the two entrances to the main and automatically pull the defender out of position...
Also, desert oasis, it's fun and all but the 3rd bases are just simply wayy to far for that map to ever work.
On September 17 2014 06:10 TheFish7 wrote: ugh no, please, not steppes of war. That map was inherently flawed, a new meta and new units cannot fix that map. You can just bounce between the two entrances to the main and automatically pull the defender out of position...
Also, desert oasis, it's fun and all but the 3rd bases are just simply wayy to far for that map to ever work.
Where is your sense of adventure?
Please tell me you didn't expect people to be this dumb and already regret your announcement. What are you going to do if people are really stupid enough to vote for let's say five 2010 maps ?
I did think that this was a great idea which would give us a great map pool made of loved classics, but I would never have expected so many trolls (or plain stupid people, it's hard to tell) in the community.
On September 17 2014 06:10 TheFish7 wrote: ugh no, please, not steppes of war. That map was inherently flawed, a new meta and new units cannot fix that map. You can just bounce between the two entrances to the main and automatically pull the defender out of position...
Also, desert oasis, it's fun and all but the 3rd bases are just simply wayy to far for that map to ever work.
Where is your sense of adventure?
Please tell me you didn't expect people to be this dumb and already regret your announcement. What are you going to do if people are really stupid enough to vote for let's say five 2010 maps ?
I did think that this was a great idea which would give us a great map pool made of loved classics, but I would never have expected so many trolls (or plain stupid people, it's hard to tell) in the community.
No, no, no. You just don't get it. We don't have time for classics!
If we're going to do this, we need to make a point. The FINAL nail in the coffin. A definitive statement.
A testament...to the maps of 2010. We need to PROVE, once and for all, that those maps...
Are absolutely fucking atrocious.
And give Protoss and Terran players a bunch of free wins while we're at it.
On September 17 2014 06:10 TheFish7 wrote: ugh no, please, not steppes of war. That map was inherently flawed, a new meta and new units cannot fix that map. You can just bounce between the two entrances to the main and automatically pull the defender out of position...
Also, desert oasis, it's fun and all but the 3rd bases are just simply wayy to far for that map to ever work.
Where is your sense of adventure?
Please tell me you didn't expect people to be this dumb and already regret your announcement. What are you going to do if people are really stupid enough to vote for let's say five 2010 maps ?
I did think that this was a great idea which would give us a great map pool made of loved classics, but I would never have expected so many trolls (or plain stupid people, it's hard to tell) in the community.
No, no, no. You just don't get it. We don't have time for classics!
If we're going to do this, we need to make a point. The FINAL nail in the coffin. A definitive statement.
A testament...to the maps of 2010. We need to PROVE, once and for all, that those maps...
Are absolutely fucking atrocious.
And give Protoss and Terran players a bunch of free wins while we're at it.
I guess your post is meant to be fun -which it is-, but it's sad if all this really ends up proving how atrocious early maps people seem to regret so much were instead of being a tribute to the best maps we ever had, especially since there are some really great maps to highlight that HotS players may have never played and would probably still be solid in HotS (and I'm not thinking Steppes of War).
On September 17 2014 06:10 TheFish7 wrote: ugh no, please, not steppes of war. That map was inherently flawed, a new meta and new units cannot fix that map. You can just bounce between the two entrances to the main and automatically pull the defender out of position...
Also, desert oasis, it's fun and all but the 3rd bases are just simply wayy to far for that map to ever work.
Where is your sense of adventure?
Please tell me you didn't expect people to be this dumb and already regret your announcement. What are you going to do if people are really stupid enough to vote for let's say five 2010 maps ?
I did think that this was a great idea which would give us a great map pool made of loved classics, but I would never have expected so many trolls (or plain stupid people, it's hard to tell) in the community.
No, no, no. You just don't get it. We don't have time for classics!
If we're going to do this, we need to make a point. The FINAL nail in the coffin. A definitive statement.
A testament...to the maps of 2010. We need to PROVE, once and for all, that those maps...
Are absolutely fucking atrocious.
And give Protoss and Terran players a bunch of free wins while we're at it.
I guess your post is meant to be fun -which it is-, but it's sad if all this really ends up proving how atrocious early maps people seem to regret so much were instead of being a tribute to the best maps we ever had, especially since there are some really great maps to highlight that HotS players may have never played and would probably still be solid in HotS (and I'm not thinking Steppes of War).
Well, I mean...this contest is OBVIOUSLY about putting terrible maps into the pool, lol. Else we would all just pick the obvious amazing maps...
Case in point:
Frost Cloud Kingdom Whirlwind
-> Round that out with other great selections...
In the end it all comes down to the poll in 8 days. I'm pretty sure we won't see that many 2010-2011 selections, if at all. And if we do...then it will prove a point, and it will never happen again!
I (naively ?) thought a dreampool should contain good maps. But hey, maybe YOU fantasize about ugly women in your dreams, but the women I fuck in MY dreams are gorgeous. So yeah, I want Frost, Whirlwind, Overgrowth and Bel'shir Vestige, while I shit on Daedalus Point, Steppes of War, Klontas Mire and Blistering Sands, I dig them in my feces so that I can forget they even existed.
Seriously, that map doesn't look THAT imbalanced. you can quite easily take the third once you have destroyed the rocks. the other bases are a little harder to take but its still managable. am i missing something or why does everyone say that map is so imbalanced. Compared to maps like blistering sands or incineration zone the map seems extremely well balanced
To be fair, the problem with blistering sands wasn't that it was small...
Don't you want to see if player A's marine/marauder army destroys the rocks to player B's main faster than player B's ling/roach army can destroy the rocks to player A's main?
Why on earth would you pick daybreak and cloud kingdom. Those maps were around for like a year and a half lol there's a reason people got sick of them.
We NEED more experimentation in the map pool in an unpatched off-season. Maps are so hugely important to the balancing of the game, to the quality of the game, that real off-piste stuff must be tried out. It would be amazing to see some flexing the map editor with various regions and some unusual resource set ups.
Now this isn't quite that, but it's a step in the right direction.
Desert oasis, scrap station, steppes of war, Metalopolis these 4 maps can bring back our good old days memories. Possibility having chance to bring back the old players.
Also, it would be cool to see proleague maps. like Fighting Spirit and OutBoxer
On September 17 2014 06:10 TheFish7 wrote: ugh no, please, not steppes of war. That map was inherently flawed, a new meta and new units cannot fix that map. You can just bounce between the two entrances to the main and automatically pull the defender out of position...
Also, desert oasis, it's fun and all but the 3rd bases are just simply wayy to far for that map to ever work.
Where is your sense of adventure?
I left it back in WoL season 1
No but seriously, what I'd like to see is some GSL maps on that list. Thinking specifically of Crevasse and Calm Before the Storm. Not just ladder maps, make it happen Psione!
Oh and yes I was thinking of Blistering Sands, not Steppes of War. Steppes might still be broken but Zerg was buffed pretty significantly since WoL so in theory it might be different now, hard to say for sure.
Guys please. I already wrote this in the Bnet Forum. Is there not a singel player out there thinking im right? This is a terrible terrible idea...
Did Blizzard went full retarded???
This is a BAD idea!!! SO BAD! INCREDIBLE BAD!
Let the Community pick 1 Map... Not all 7!
The Community wont be able to handle this. They look back to old maps like Daybreak (i loved this map in WoL btw) and think "that was such a cool map, i want it back". NONONONONO This map got removed because of !@#$ty 2 hour turtlegames with Swarmhost.
Steppes of War? WTF is wrong with you? Of course its fun to play this map a couple of times. But do you want to play it for 2 Months in Ladder having 5% Winrate in ZvT?
This is completely retarded. Probalaly this is fun for some low league Players (dont take it offensive please). But this is a kick in the nuts for every competitive Player out there. I cant take WCS serious anymore if they will play on Xelnaga Caverns.
Different Time. Different Meta. Different Maps. This is Retarded. OMG NONONONONO
Blizzard dont let this happen pleaaaaaaaaaaaase.
Sorry SoW wont be a breeze. This will be some serious 100% Terran Bull!@#$.
o good it must be 1. avril or something. This have to be a joke
Sorry about this really aggressive post. I'm soo scared... Starcraft is E-Sport. And E-Sport is my life.
Doesn't Blizzard care about E-Sports anymore? What are they gonna do next Season? letting goldleague players doing Balancechanges through a Votingsystem? () Mules OP? () Banelings OP? () Voidray OP?
Sorry for my bad english. Its not my first language. normally its actually pretty fine, but im to shocked atm, to pay attention to my spelling.
On September 17 2014 08:51 xGameMamba wrote: Guys please. I already wrote this in the Bnet Forum. Is there not a singel player out there thinking im right? This is a terrible terrible idea...
The Community wont be able to handle this. They look back to old maps like Daybreak (i loved this map in WoL btw) and think "that was such a cool map, i want it back". NONONONONO This map got removed because of !@#$ty 2 hour turtlegames with Swarmhost.
Steppes of War? WTF is wrong with you? Of course its fun to play this map a couple of times. But do you want to play it for 2 Months in Ladder having 5% Winrate in ZvT?
This is completely retarded. Probalaly this is fun for some low league Players (dont take it offensive please). But this is a kick in the nuts for every competitive Player out there. I cant take WCS serious anymore if they will play on Xelnaga Caverns.
Different Time. Different Meta. Different Maps. This is Retarded. OMG NONONONONO
Blizzard dont let this happen pleaaaaaaaaaaaase.
Sorry SoW wont be a breeze. This will be some serious 100% Terran Bull!@#$.
o good it must be 1. avril or something. This have to be a joke
Sorry about this really aggressive post. I'm soo scared... Starcraft is E-Sport. And E-Sport is my life.
Doesn't Blizzard care about E-Sports anymore? What are they gonna do next Season? letting goldleague players doing Balancechanges through a Votingsystem? () Mules OP? () Banelings OP? () Voidray OP?
Sorry for my bad english. Its not my first language. normally its actually pretty fine, but im to shocked atm, to pay attention to my spelling.
AAAAAAAAAAAARG
I totally agree with you. I'm quite worried. A lot of people seem to forget a season is long and you only have 3 vetos. Terrible maps are terrible, not "fun" or "shake the meta". I fear a very dull season is upon us if Blizzard doesn't monitor carefully the maps for which you can vote, because there seems to be a LOT of trolls firmly determined to have us playing on Steppes of War...
On September 17 2014 08:05 Doodsmack wrote: Why on earth would you pick daybreak and cloud kingdom. Those maps were around for like a year and a half lol there's a reason people got sick of them.
Why would I want to play the "solid" maps that I already played to death? I thought the whole point is to bring maps that are not receiving enough attention.
I would like Shakuras (Meta turning point), Tal'Darim with the rocks (since you vetoed them in the ladder back then) and Desert Oasis (where Huk did Mothership Rush). Those 3 are the "staple" before I even begin to extrapolate all the map people vetoed and got little attention from.
For early HotS or end of WoL maps I would consider them out of the question. We played Star Station for four seasons, five if you count Star Station TE; Akilon for six seasons; Antiga since S2 2011 and we played it over 2 years; Cloud Kingdom (since 2012) and Daybreak are basically being played since the actual practice using build order (which is much less irrelevant before). I honest do not believe you can develop "new meta" on Cloud Kingdom that is not achievable on Foxtrot Labs. Ohana is just Bel'Shire Vestige with less ramps and you played this style map for 2+ years. Whirlwind you played it for a year when rain played it for 2 years (it was first used for the GSTL 2012 Season 2). They are all great maps but I doubt you will see anything new on it. Similar reasons can be said for maps that are basically the same style despite receiving little attention (e.g. Arid_Plateau]Arid Plateau is like Heavy Rain, Korhal Compound is like Overgrowth + Yeonsu, )
As for Stepps of War I do not really care. If it is up I will vote for it (we need at least 1 map from the very early SC2) instead of Lost Temple or the maps I mentioned above. I would not encourage Lost Temple for "meta game" since it has been overused to the brink (Broodwar, Warcraft 3, SC2 even some other non Blizz RTS has clones of it). In my opinion Lost Temple was used in the beta for benchmarking, nothing more.
The real gems that are usually missed and brought back up in less serious games are maps like Delta Quadrant (I know things will be different). Or epic maps like Metropolis (MVP vs Squirtle). Or Metaoplis for all the Funday games on it.
Therefore I urge you to seriously vote the maps that features a vastly different point of view, not for troll reasons but for sake of diversity. Vote Sharuras Plateau, Tal'Darim Altar (with the rocks), Any map from the beta era (Scrap Station (with the even gas), Desert Oasis, Blistering Sands, Steppes of War, Kulas Ravine, Incineration Zone and maybe Lost Temple), Slag Pits or Jungle Basin, Metropolis (must have to calm the "pros need practice" wineries).
I'm fed up with that "diversity" "shake the meta" nonsense. All this "oh I'm bored with standard maps we need something new" shit ever gave us is Daedalus Point and Alterzim Stronghold. Maps can and should possess innovative features, but "vastly different points of view" are just stupid gimmicks that once in a blue moon give a gem like Habitation Station and every other time give an unplayable broken map. A map should aimed at simple things like being balanced, promoting counter-attack based and positional play, and not favoring any strategy to the point of becoming dull. You don't need to "shake the meta" to do such things.
Cloud Kingdom was awesome, Frost was one of the very best maps in sc2 history, Entombed Valley was also a pretty damn good macro map, for example these 3 maps fits current meta perfectly. Wanna go deeper? We had Crevasse and Terminus, which are both also macro-oriented and fits also fine, and they are old!
Akilon or Belshir Vestige were bad? Akilon is not a threat anymore vs Protoss since MSC vision was nerfed.
Ohana is one of the very "comfortable" maps of all time were also loved by many players.
Stepps of War, Blistering Sands, Jungle Basin, Shakuras Plateau, Delta Quadrant, Metalopolis, Lost Temple, Desert Oasis, Taldarim Altar and Scrap Station were bad? I mean, srsly bad considering that we got Foxtrot labs in current season?
P.S. I do belive, many pro-players would feel a nostalgia playing those old maps, for all those moments they passed with game, as well as many other non-pro. Touchy feelings are great, and btw it gonna be for a single season, so it's fine, I just hope that few the most played maps of season 1 in 2015 will remain in season 2.
On September 17 2014 09:08 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: Cloud Kingdom was awesome, Frost was one of the very best maps in sc2 history, Entombed Valley was also a pretty damn good macro map, for example these 3 maps fits current meta perfectly. Wanna go deeper? We had Crevasse and Terminus, which are both also macro-oriented and fits also fine, and they are old!
Akilon or Belshir Vestige were bad? Akilon is not a threat anymore vs Protoss since MSC vision was nerfed.
Ohana is one of the very "comfortable" maps of all time were also loved by many players.
Stepps of War, Blistering Sands, Jungle Basic, Shakuras Plateau, Delta Quadrant, Metalopolis, Lost Temple, Desert Oasis, Taldarim Altar and Scrap Station were bad? I mean, srsly bad considering that we got Foxtrot labs in current season?
Your post is overall very reasonable until the last paragraph, because Foxtrot Labs is miles ahead in every regard of the maps you quoted. Maybe not Shakuras Plateau / Taldarim / LT which should be remotely playable.
On September 17 2014 09:08 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: Cloud Kingdom was awesome, Frost was one of the very best maps in sc2 history, Entombed Valley was also a pretty damn good macro map, for example these 3 maps fits current meta perfectly. Wanna go deeper? We had Crevasse and Terminus, which are both also macro-oriented and fits also fine, and they are old!
Akilon or Belshir Vestige were bad? Akilon is not a threat anymore vs Protoss since MSC vision was nerfed.
Ohana is one of the very "comfortable" maps of all time were also loved by many players.
Stepps of War, Blistering Sands, Jungle Basin, Shakuras Plateau, Delta Quadrant, Metalopolis, Lost Temple, Desert Oasis, Taldarim Altar and Scrap Station were bad? I mean, srsly bad considering that we got Foxtrot labs in current season?
Your post is overall very reasonable until the last paragraph, because Foxtrot Labs is miles ahead in every regard of the maps you quoted. Maybe not Shakuras Plateau / Taldarim / LT which should be remotely playable.
Let's take a look at our problem with another angle. We had a huge diversity of maps, there were very notable maps, and some maps that I can't remember how they even looks like, some macro oriented maps, some strange maps like Stepps of War, a ton of maps with impossible 3rd expo, few 3 players maps, some maps where u hardly may get ur natural expo and so on.
So do we still wan't a huge variety? Let's see how our pro players gonna adjust to "new" maps with all those knowleges they got about current meta and game in fact. And taking in mind that it gonna be a community voting, belive me, we won't have 7 Frost-like maps. Prepare ur double rax and 4 gate pushes to be executed perfectly on map like Stepps of War :D
The keyword is DIVERSITY But it must be a smart diversity
On September 17 2014 08:51 xGameMamba wrote: Guys please. I already wrote this in the Bnet Forum. Is there not a singel player out there thinking im right? This is a terrible terrible idea...
The Community wont be able to handle this. They look back to old maps like Daybreak (i loved this map in WoL btw) and think "that was such a cool map, i want it back". NONONONONO This map got removed because of !@#$ty 2 hour turtlegames with Swarmhost.
Steppes of War? WTF is wrong with you? Of course its fun to play this map a couple of times. But do you want to play it for 2 Months in Ladder having 5% Winrate in ZvT?
This is completely retarded. Probalaly this is fun for some low league Players (dont take it offensive please). But this is a kick in the nuts for every competitive Player out there. I cant take WCS serious anymore if they will play on Xelnaga Caverns.
Different Time. Different Meta. Different Maps. This is Retarded. OMG NONONONONO
Blizzard dont let this happen pleaaaaaaaaaaaase.
Sorry SoW wont be a breeze. This will be some serious 100% Terran Bull!@#$.
o good it must be 1. avril or something. This have to be a joke
Sorry about this really aggressive post. I'm soo scared... Starcraft is E-Sport. And E-Sport is my life.
Doesn't Blizzard care about E-Sports anymore? What are they gonna do next Season? letting goldleague players doing Balancechanges through a Votingsystem? () Mules OP? () Banelings OP? () Voidray OP?
Sorry for my bad english. Its not my first language. normally its actually pretty fine, but im to shocked atm, to pay attention to my spelling.
AAAAAAAAAAAARG
Season 4 will be after the 2014 WCS season ends. This will effectively be the "off season".
On September 17 2014 09:08 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: Cloud Kingdom was awesome, Frost was one of the very best maps in sc2 history, Entombed Valley was also a pretty damn good macro map, for example these 3 maps fits current meta perfectly. Wanna go deeper? We had Crevasse and Terminus, which are both also macro-oriented and fits also fine, and they are old!
Akilon or Belshir Vestige were bad? Akilon is not a threat anymore vs Protoss since MSC vision was nerfed.
Ohana is one of the very "comfortable" maps of all time were also loved by many players.
Stepps of War, Blistering Sands, Jungle Basin, Shakuras Plateau, Delta Quadrant, Metalopolis, Lost Temple, Desert Oasis, Taldarim Altar and Scrap Station were bad? I mean, srsly bad considering that we got Foxtrot labs in current season?
Your post is overall very reasonable until the last paragraph, because Foxtrot Labs is miles ahead in every regard of the maps you quoted. Maybe not Shakuras Plateau / Taldarim / LT which should be remotely playable.
Let's take a look at our problem with another angle. We had a huge diversity of maps, there were very notable maps, and some maps that I can't remember how they even looks like, some macro oriented maps, some strange maps like Stepps of War, a ton of maps with impossible 3rd expo, few 3 players maps, some maps where u hardly may get ur natural expo and so on.
So do we still wan't a huge variety? Let's see how our pro players gonna adjust to "new" maps with all those knowleges they got about current meta and game in fact. And taking in mind that it gonna be a community vote, belive me, we won't have 7 Frost-like maps. Prepare ur double rax and 4 gate pushes to be executed perfectly on map like Stepps of War :D
The keyword is DIVERSITY But it must be a smart diversity
As long as there are only 1-2 retarded maps I can deal with it, but I don't even see the point to put those horrible maps on ladder again. I mean it's already quite shameful that Blizzard mapmakers were dumb enough to produce those pieces of shit, so I'm really at a loss to understand why we should look forward to seeing them return. Any way we'll get what we'll get, but I don't see why a "Frost-like" ladder (which, to my mind, means "great maps that consistently produced awesome and solid games") would be a bad thing, but I must be narrow-minded. Cheers.
On September 17 2014 09:23 Psione wrote: Season 4 will be after the 2014 WCS season ends. This will effectively be the "off season".
That "off-season" argument can't justify everything. Ladder can't be completely devoid of any sense whatsoever for a whole season just because people think it's quite a joke to play on retarded maps. Players who don't have teams use ladder as their main means of practice, what value will they find in their training if the map pool is unsuited to modern play ? I really think you should be careful about the maps you propose for voting, people like to act like they're dumb -which they usually are- and will troll your poll as much as possible without caring about the quality of the ladder experience.
On September 17 2014 09:08 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: Cloud Kingdom was awesome, Frost was one of the very best maps in sc2 history, Entombed Valley was also a pretty damn good macro map, for example these 3 maps fits current meta perfectly. Wanna go deeper? We had Crevasse and Terminus, which are both also macro-oriented and fits also fine, and they are old!
Akilon or Belshir Vestige were bad? Akilon is not a threat anymore vs Protoss since MSC vision was nerfed.
Ohana is one of the very "comfortable" maps of all time were also loved by many players.
Stepps of War, Blistering Sands, Jungle Basin, Shakuras Plateau, Delta Quadrant, Metalopolis, Lost Temple, Desert Oasis, Taldarim Altar and Scrap Station were bad? I mean, srsly bad considering that we got Foxtrot labs in current season?
Your post is overall very reasonable until the last paragraph, because Foxtrot Labs is miles ahead in every regard of the maps you quoted. Maybe not Shakuras Plateau / Taldarim / LT which should be remotely playable.
Let's take a look at our problem with another angle. We had a huge diversity of maps, there were very notable maps, and some maps that I can't remember how they even looks like, some macro oriented maps, some strange maps like Stepps of War, a ton of maps with impossible 3rd expo, few 3 players maps, some maps where u hardly may get ur natural expo and so on.
So do we still wan't a huge variety? Let's see how our pro players gonna adjust to "new" maps with all those knowleges they got about current meta and game in fact. And taking in mind that it gonna be a community vote, belive me, we won't have 7 Frost-like maps. Prepare ur double rax and 4 gate pushes to be executed perfectly on map like Stepps of War :D
The keyword is DIVERSITY But it must be a smart diversity
As long as there are only 1-2 retarded maps I can deal with it, but I don't even see the point to put those horrible maps on ladder again. I mean it's already quite shameful that Blizzard mapmakers were dumb enough to produce those pieces of shit, so I'm really at a loss to understand why we should look forward to seeing them return. Any way we'll get what we'll get, but I don't see why a "Frost-like" ladder (which, to my mind, means "great maps that consistently produced awesome and solid games") would be a bad thing, but I must be narrow-minded. Cheers.
Sadly, it seems like a ton of people who are actually not playing the game (by their own comments) seem to love the idea to put in bad maps for nostalgica reasons. Just that they won't get messy games back. They are going to get Sentry/Immortal rushes on Steppes of War, Speedmedivacs and Oracles basically spawning in their opponents bases at 5mins and Protoss uneventfully starving by being incapable of taking natural bases on XNC against standard zerg play. Well, since they are not playing, they are not going to get that kind of stuff. Neither will anybody else, after getting frustrated after at most one week.
On September 17 2014 09:08 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: Cloud Kingdom was awesome, Frost was one of the very best maps in sc2 history, Entombed Valley was also a pretty damn good macro map, for example these 3 maps fits current meta perfectly. Wanna go deeper? We had Crevasse and Terminus, which are both also macro-oriented and fits also fine, and they are old!
Akilon or Belshir Vestige were bad? Akilon is not a threat anymore vs Protoss since MSC vision was nerfed.
Ohana is one of the very "comfortable" maps of all time were also loved by many players.
Stepps of War, Blistering Sands, Jungle Basin, Shakuras Plateau, Delta Quadrant, Metalopolis, Lost Temple, Desert Oasis, Taldarim Altar and Scrap Station were bad? I mean, srsly bad considering that we got Foxtrot labs in current season?
Your post is overall very reasonable until the last paragraph, because Foxtrot Labs is miles ahead in every regard of the maps you quoted. Maybe not Shakuras Plateau / Taldarim / LT which should be remotely playable.
Let's take a look at our problem with another angle. We had a huge diversity of maps, there were very notable maps, and some maps that I can't remember how they even looks like, some macro oriented maps, some strange maps like Stepps of War, a ton of maps with impossible 3rd expo, few 3 players maps, some maps where u hardly may get ur natural expo and so on.
So do we still wan't a huge variety? Let's see how our pro players gonna adjust to "new" maps with all those knowleges they got about current meta and game in fact. And taking in mind that it gonna be a community vote, belive me, we won't have 7 Frost-like maps. Prepare ur double rax and 4 gate pushes to be executed perfectly on map like Stepps of War :D
The keyword is DIVERSITY But it must be a smart diversity
As long as there are only 1-2 retarded maps I can deal with it, but I don't even see the point to put those horrible maps on ladder again. I mean it's already quite shameful that Blizzard mapmakers were dumb enough to produce those pieces of shit, so I'm really at a loss to understand why we should look forward to seeing them return. Any way we'll get what we'll get, but I don't see why a "Frost-like" ladder (which, to my mind, means "great maps that consistently produced awesome and solid games") would be a bad thing, but I must be narrow-minded. Cheers.
Sadly, it seems like a ton of people who are actually not playing the game (by their own comments) seem to love the idea to put in bad maps for nostalgica reasons. Just that they won't get messy games back. They are going to get Sentry/Immortal rushes on Steppes of War, Speedmedivacs and Oracles basically spawning in their opponents bases at 5mins and Protoss uneventfully starving by being incapable of taking natural bases on XNC against standard zerg play. Well, since they are not playing, they are not going to get that kind of stuff. Neither will anybody else, after getting frustrated after at most one week.
thats exactly why I think blizzard will pick the maps they put in the poll. They cant go and propose 7 retarded maps because it could really hurt the active population of the game.
If massive amounts of players stop playing for a season because the mappool is trash, good luck getting them back imo.
On September 17 2014 09:08 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: Cloud Kingdom was awesome, Frost was one of the very best maps in sc2 history, Entombed Valley was also a pretty damn good macro map, for example these 3 maps fits current meta perfectly. Wanna go deeper? We had Crevasse and Terminus, which are both also macro-oriented and fits also fine, and they are old!
Akilon or Belshir Vestige were bad? Akilon is not a threat anymore vs Protoss since MSC vision was nerfed.
Ohana is one of the very "comfortable" maps of all time were also loved by many players.
Stepps of War, Blistering Sands, Jungle Basin, Shakuras Plateau, Delta Quadrant, Metalopolis, Lost Temple, Desert Oasis, Taldarim Altar and Scrap Station were bad? I mean, srsly bad considering that we got Foxtrot labs in current season?
Your post is overall very reasonable until the last paragraph, because Foxtrot Labs is miles ahead in every regard of the maps you quoted. Maybe not Shakuras Plateau / Taldarim / LT which should be remotely playable.
Let's take a look at our problem with another angle. We had a huge diversity of maps, there were very notable maps, and some maps that I can't remember how they even looks like, some macro oriented maps, some strange maps like Stepps of War, a ton of maps with impossible 3rd expo, few 3 players maps, some maps where u hardly may get ur natural expo and so on.
So do we still wan't a huge variety? Let's see how our pro players gonna adjust to "new" maps with all those knowleges they got about current meta and game in fact. And taking in mind that it gonna be a community vote, belive me, we won't have 7 Frost-like maps. Prepare ur double rax and 4 gate pushes to be executed perfectly on map like Stepps of War :D
The keyword is DIVERSITY But it must be a smart diversity
As long as there are only 1-2 retarded maps I can deal with it, but I don't even see the point to put those horrible maps on ladder again. I mean it's already quite shameful that Blizzard mapmakers were dumb enough to produce those pieces of shit, so I'm really at a loss to understand why we should look forward to seeing them return. Any way we'll get what we'll get, but I don't see why a "Frost-like" ladder (which, to my mind, means "great maps that consistently produced awesome and solid games") would be a bad thing, but I must be narrow-minded. Cheers.
They way u think is correct. Unfortunatly am not sure about all Frost-like maps, but I do have a list of maps which were pretty loved by community and players.
(Awesome big macro oriented map that looks peaceful, we had a lot of great GSL games on it, a lot of basetrades and lategames) 2 players Ohana+ Show Spoiler +
(the most pleasent and comfortable map of all times) 2 players Cloud Kingdom+ Show Spoiler +
(we had a lot of excellent games on this rly well balanced map even in Blord/infestor times) 2 players Akilon Wastes+ Show Spoiler +
(relativly easy to get 4 expos had a huge number of lategames, Mana approves) 4 players Crevasse+ Show Spoiler +
(very easy to build a natural with single rich vespene and 6 mineral patches and relativly easy to get 3rd) 4 players Entombed Valley+ Show Spoiler +
(easy to get 3 expos but should be with either vertical or cross spawns) 4 players Frost+ Show Spoiler +
(of the longlives maps at wcs system, due to great balance and awesome design, perfect map)
(even tho a lot of games been played vs swarmhosts here, this map also should be mantioned as one of the most long-lived, but I think it has to be slightly reworked) 3 players Testbug+ Show Spoiler +
(awesome design, it was rly some fresh look at map making, rich mineral bases were closed by rocks in a "strange" way) 4 players - Delta Quadrant+ Show Spoiler +
(very arguable although, pretty easy to get natural base behind ur main with single entrance and easy to get 3rd, relativly small 4 players map with zelnaga tower in a middle. Some cosmetic changes needed although)
All these maps don't need even a slight cosmetic changes, except rocks down the ramp.
Maybe I missed some core maps, so add them please.
but I do have a list of maps which were pretty loved by community and players.
Next thing I read is Delta Quadrant. Wtf? Nobody ever liked that map. And in terms of modern play: Natural is way to open for Protoss. The rush distance (unless forced cross) is supershort. There is no third base that you can take without killing rocks first.
but I do have a list of maps which were pretty loved by community and players.
Next thing I read is Delta Quadrant. Wtf? Nobody ever liked that map. And in terms of modern play: Natural is way to open for Protoss. The rush distance (unless forced cross) is supershort. There is no third base that you can take without killing rocks first.
So u missed my explanation about agruments for a reason? I think it's pretty ez to remove rocks from natural, and add forced cross spawns. And in the end, it gonna be almost like Nimbus :D
This is some generic nostalgia-hype move by Blizzard. Anyone who actually played on those maps knows that the majority of them were horrible compared to what we have today. We (the community and tournament organizers) had to fight Blizzard for years in order to get to the map rotation structure we have in place today (just listen to some old episodes of SOTG -- every other episode was bitching about the map pool). People have the misconception that old maps will be fun now because they have good memories of 2010-2011 when SC2 was at its peak.
That being said I'm not totally against the idea of reincorporating old maps, but to put it to a vote like this is probably not going to yield positive results. The masses will just vote for the most funny looking shit like steppes of war/ incineration zone because they remember some game where white-ra beat idra and he got mad. All it will do is make ladder even more frustrating for those that actually still play.
I will literally re-quit laddering if this happens. Unless they make MASSIVE overhauls to the maps, I guess I will just stop playing again or try to find somewhere to custom game.
On September 17 2014 09:07 [PkF] Wire wrote: I'm fed up with that "diversity" "shake the meta" nonsense. All this "oh I'm bored with standard maps we need something new" shit ever gave us is Daedalus Point and Alterzim Stronghold. Maps can and should possess innovative features, but "vastly different points of view" are just stupid gimmicks that once in a blue moon give a gem like Habitation Station and every other time give an unplayable broken map.
Let me give you an example of the general state of PvZ in end of WoL. The only map where Mutas were ever used is Tal'Darim Altar. The reason being the hard ship of taking 3rd and the expanse of the map. A lot of games had to be played differently. The addition of Antiga expanded the Muta viable possibility to 2. Try doing any muta related 2 base harassment on other map the Protoss will either camp on 3 base or kill the Zerg. On surface Alterzim Stronghold is not much different from Emtombed Valley or Condemned Ridge until you watch Seed stage his comback. Daedalus Point is not much innovation other than the wide ramp (if you can call that innovation). Watch Billowy on Waystation (Long spawn ramp is even wider). Would you call it gimmick?
You need a map that is different to start from. I would even argue the Scrap Station spawned Klontas Mire, which may or may not relate to your blue moon that is Habitation Station. Until a map is made and played no meta can develop from it. Simple things like the location and width of natural ramp is developed by trial and error, not from build orders. The map maker can attempt to make FFE at least possible but he should not have such constraint. In the natural bases without a ramp marines will get kited to death by stalkers. But we have Deadwing and Overgrowth where the lack of such feature is mitigated by map size.
How do you define gimmicks? All those little things add up to a map.
On September 17 2014 09:07 [PkF] Wire wrote: A map should aimed at simple things like being balanced, promoting counter-attack based and positional play, and not favoring any strategy to the point of becoming dull. You don't need to "shake the meta" to do such things.
All those ideas are not "simple things" at all. To promote counter-attack you need to have more economical path. If the attacker travels longer to attack one location from different path while the defender has a shorter travel the location (not the map) is to have a defender's advantage. This sounds simple. But add in the constrains of "you need to take a defensible third", a ramp has to be with in certain distance from the natural, you cannot have more than 3 ways to blink in/ fly in, you cannot have too many ramps chock points, you cannot do without chokes at strategic locations etc. "Standard" maps essentially limited to a map that cannot have 3rds next to each other (Deadwing on Cross Spawn), natural ramps has to be far enough from each other while the additional 4+ bases has to be closer to each other (or your "counter-attack" will become base trade), aerial/cliff distance cannot be too far from walking distance (think scrap station to habitation station, why this constraint even exist?).
What is positional play? On one hand you want to be able to defend with smaller number against counter attacks while your strategic force move to strategic sources you going to have ramps. The other being using small forces to catch larger defending forces' attention thus enabling larger attack force to find an opening. Maps with more curved paths and chokes is the most effective at thwart any blunt forces (zergs, marine timings, non-blink gateway timings) but making any (non-zerg) defensive strategy effective.
One can argue the current map pool is favoring any strategy beyond 1 base. Whether that is dull is up to personal taste. 4 gate in all match up is equally "dull".
Finnaly, you do not have to play those maps for longer than 3 month.
On September 17 2014 09:08 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: Cloud Kingdom was awesome, Frost was one of the very best maps in sc2 history, Entombed Valley was also a pretty damn good macro map, for example these 3 maps fits current meta perfectly. Wanna go deeper? We had Crevasse and Terminus, which are both also macro-oriented and fits also fine, and they are old!
Akilon or Belshir Vestige were bad? Akilon is not a threat anymore vs Protoss since MSC vision was nerfed.
Ohana is one of the very "comfortable" maps of all time were also loved by many players.
Stepps of War, Blistering Sands, Jungle Basin, Shakuras Plateau, Delta Quadrant, Metalopolis, Lost Temple, Desert Oasis, Taldarim Altar and Scrap Station were bad? I mean, srsly bad considering that we got Foxtrot labs in current season?
P.S. I do belive, many pro-players would feel a nostalgia playing those old maps, for all those moments they passed with game, as well as many other non-pro. Touchy feelings are great, and btw it gonna be for a single season, so it's fine, I just hope that few the most played maps of season 1 in 2015 will remain in season 2.
Foxtrot Labs is better than every map you listed except maybe Crevasse and Entombed Valley, Frost?
Crevasse is basically Nimbus but probably slightly better for terran (as if that was needed).
1.- Whirlwind: Best macro map ever. 2.- Metalopolis: Just for the lulz, make it like 2010 (no cross positions). 3.- Tal'darim Altar: The version without the rocks at the third. 4.- Cloud Kingdom: Oh, the good times... the zerg tyranny... 5.- Frost: Yeah, keep it. 6.- Polar Night: Best map of hots only imo. 7.- Steppes of war: The map where real men were forged.
I actually wonder why they stop at 7? Seems like as an off season they don't really need to have such a coherent or concise map pool. Why not have even more maps, 10, 12, 15? You could just add more vetoes to counteract how large it might be. I think it would be fun to have a really, really big map pool like that.
On September 17 2014 11:45 washikie wrote: For the trolllolols bring back sttepes of war.
im joking of course btw I would like to see them bring back whirlwind. Akilon, and Bel'Shir Vestige. essentially have a return to original hots maps that were really fun.
so just for fun i think daybreak,frost,cloud kingdom,entombed valley,Shakuras Plateau,Antiga Shipyard,and (Xel'Naga Caverns but only if the move the rocks from the nat going to the third and move them to the ramp going to the third but leave it to where you can still only need one force field to block it till rocks are gone and were good.)
Korhal Compound (without third fix), Abyssal Caverns, Incineration Zone, Jungle Basin, Searing Crater, Kulas Ravine, and why not Lost Temple while were at it.
On September 17 2014 12:33 GGzerG wrote: Instead of being creative and creating new / better maps, lets bring back maps that were terribly imbalanced, and were flawed T_T
The idea's to have a nostalgic, fun season during the WCS off season. It's not intended to be competitive.
I don't see why so many people are upset about this. It's for like two months, when there are no WCS tournaments, and it's experimental, and it gives them time to find new maps for next year (TL MC please)
On September 17 2014 11:27 iMrising wrote: If anyone wants a list of all the maps: I quickly painted all the maps on liquidpedia: + Show Spoiler +
perhaps add it on the OP until someone has a more legitimate one
thx that makes this a bit easier.
My hopes for the 7 next season:
Metropolis Metalopolis Shakuras Plateau Entombed Valley Korhol Sky Island Tal'darim Altar Xel'naga Caverns
Good spread of the different eras of WoL and 1 early HotS map (Korhol) that died way too soon.
Seems like everyone just wants either troll maps (okay okay, xel'naga is kind of one too) or maps that already enjoyed an absurdly long lifespan (Daybreak, Cloud, Whirldwind) though. :/
I actually would most like to play on Metalopolis again, though it would probably need some balance changes to stop it from being a complete zerg-fest.
Besides that...the "funky" maps I would like to see: Scrap Station, Neo Planet S, and Heavy Rain
and the more standard but nostalgic ones: Shakuras Plateau, Tal'Darim Altar, and Entombed Valley
I can't say I particularly want Cloud Kingdom, Daybreak, or Antiga Shipyards back. They were fine maps, but I've had my fill of games on them.
edit: Oooooh, and if it's possible, Gwangalli Beach for the gorgeous visuals
On September 17 2014 11:27 Darthsanta13 wrote: I actually wonder why they stop at 7? Seems like as an off season they don't really need to have such a coherent or concise map pool. Why not have even more maps, 10, 12, 15? You could just add more vetoes to counteract how large it might be. I think it would be fun to have a really, really big map pool like that.
On September 17 2014 02:48 The_Templar wrote: I want steppes of war back. That was one of the best maps in WoL.
Because that's the only one you took from Gumba :p
Daybreak. Come back my lover ! Shakuras plateau could be cool in cross only (because tanks shoot natural). Metalopolis.. i loved that map even if you can ff the ramp
On September 17 2014 02:56 Quidios wrote: Map design is an evolution, not devolution. Blizzard is still clueless when it comes to maps and their importance.
this
On September 17 2014 03:07 Teoita wrote: This is incredibly stupid
this
On September 17 2014 03:17 SuperHofmann wrote: Maybe Blizzard doens't know how much important maps are for the meta (and meta changes). If an old WoL map cames out it will be AWFULL.
and this
On September 17 2014 03:19 Darkhorse wrote: I would prefer if this were on a separate matchmaking queue and not regular ladder
and this
On September 17 2014 03:30 DinoMight wrote: THIS WILL NOT END WELL.
THIS WILL REALLY NOT END WELL.
There's a reason we got rid of most of these maps....
On September 17 2014 03:35 ChromeBallz wrote: Ohana and Metropolis! Some epic games happened on Metropolis and Ohana is just good.
Just no Metalopolis
I want open naturals. Metalopolis <3
And never would a blink all in be held ever again
oh and this
On September 17 2014 06:10 TheFish7 wrote: ugh no, please, not steppes of war. That map was inherently flawed, a new meta and new units cannot fix that map. You can just bounce between the two entrances to the main and automatically pull the defender out of position...
Also, desert oasis, it's fun and all but the 3rd bases are just simply wayy to far for that map to ever work.
On September 17 2014 10:27 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I will literally re-quit laddering if this happens. Unless they make MASSIVE overhauls to the maps, I guess I will just stop playing again or try to find somewhere to custom game.
On September 17 2014 12:26 Scarecrow wrote: This is a terrible idea...
edit: wtf SEVEN maps... I guess the novelty will be fun but playing on broken maps will get old fast
emotions overflowing right now, can't believe they're actually doing this.
On September 17 2014 12:33 GGzerG wrote: Instead of being creative and creating new / better maps, lets bring back maps that were terribly imbalanced, and were flawed T_T
oh and this one pisses me off the most, just look at map of the month to see what the community has to offer.
As fun as this idea is, it kinda worries me, the game has evolved to a point now where those old maps are going to be ridiculously imbalanced in so many different ways shapes and forms that its going to turn shit upside down on its head.
dont get me wrong, i love the idea, but an entire ladder season? the fun joke will get old WAY before the season ends, and i know a lot of people probably won't be happy about this... pro players in particular
On September 17 2014 16:07 Champi wrote: As fun as this idea is, it kinda worries me, the game has evolved to a point now where those old maps are going to be ridiculously imbalanced in so many different ways shapes and forms that its going to turn shit upside down on its head.
dont get me wrong, i love the idea, but an entire ladder season? the fun joke will get old WAY before the season ends, and i know a lot of people probably won't be happy about this... pro players in particular
Probably why they do it in the last season when finals and holidays are most prevalent as to hit the fewest people possible.
On September 17 2014 09:07 [PkF] Wire wrote: A map should aimed at simple things like being balanced, promoting counter-attack based and positional play, and not favoring any strategy to the point of becoming dull. You don't need to "shake the meta" to do such things.
All those ideas are not "simple things" at all. To promote counter-attack you need to have more economical path. If the attacker travels longer to attack one location from different path while the defender has a shorter travel the location (not the map) is to have a defender's advantage. This sounds simple. But add in the constrains of "you need to take a defensible third", a ramp has to be with in certain distance from the natural, you cannot have more than 3 ways to blink in/ fly in, you cannot have too many ramps chock points, you cannot do without chokes at strategic locations etc. "Standard" maps essentially limited to a map that cannot have 3rds next to each other (Deadwing on Cross Spawn), natural ramps has to be far enough from each other while the additional 4+ bases has to be closer to each other (or your "counter-attack" will become base trade), aerial/cliff distance cannot be too far from walking distance (think scrap station to habitation station, why this constraint even exist?).
The tight restrictions on map makers is the single biggest problem that Starcraft 2 suffers from. It is verging on the bizarre that BW map makers had more options with a map editor made in 1998 -although of course it was hacked into greater effectiveness over the years- than modern map makers have with a map editor made in 2010.
Sure, primarily this is a situation that results from decisions that are essentially irreversible; chokes don't restrict the time it takes for troops to move across the map, sentrys allows terrain remodelling and medivacs are made on mass allowing terrans to "skip" terrain virtually every game, warp-ins also "skip" terrain and can be done anywhere with little preparation and at no extra cost, etc. etc.
However, there is also a lack of adventurousness on the part of the community that is acting a break on map innovation -for example any map on which win rates fall more than a few percentage points outside of 50/50 is considered "broken" or that patches are expected within weeks of race balance falling a few percentage points out of 50/50.
This is a step in the right direction. There's no doubt there are going to be some nightmares in there, but any player that tells you they know exactly how every map from 2010 will play out in the modern game is wildly over-estimating their predictive ability. The brutal and messy arrival of some crazed maps (old or new) might actually result in the discovery of a new meta. It's incredibly unlikely and simply lifting a few restrictions on map makers (no regions, standard minerals) for a few maps in the off season would be a much better move, but still. This is better than nothing.
On September 17 2014 10:30 Odowan Paleolithic wrote:
On September 17 2014 09:07 [PkF] Wire wrote: A map should aimed at simple things like being balanced, promoting counter-attack based and positional play, and not favoring any strategy to the point of becoming dull. You don't need to "shake the meta" to do such things.
All those ideas are not "simple things" at all. To promote counter-attack you need to have more economical path. If the attacker travels longer to attack one location from different path while the defender has a shorter travel the location (not the map) is to have a defender's advantage. This sounds simple. But add in the constrains of "you need to take a defensible third", a ramp has to be with in certain distance from the natural, you cannot have more than 3 ways to blink in/ fly in, you cannot have too many ramps chock points, you cannot do without chokes at strategic locations etc. "Standard" maps essentially limited to a map that cannot have 3rds next to each other (Deadwing on Cross Spawn), natural ramps has to be far enough from each other while the additional 4+ bases has to be closer to each other (or your "counter-attack" will become base trade), aerial/cliff distance cannot be too far from walking distance (think scrap station to habitation station, why this constraint even exist?).
The tight restrictions on map makers is the single biggest problem that Starcraft 2 suffers from. It is verging on the bizarre that BW map makers had more options with a map editor made in 1998 -although of course it was hacked into greater effectiveness over the years- than modern map makers have with a map editor made in 2010.
Sure, primarily this is a situation that results from decisions that are essentially irreversible; chokes don't restrict the time it takes for troops to move across the map, sentrys allows terrain remodelling and medivacs are made on mass allowing terrans to "skip" terrain virtually every game, warp-ins also "skip" terrain and can be done anywhere with little preparation and at no extra cost, etc. etc.
However, there is also a lack of adventurousness on the part of the community that is acting a break on map innovation -for example any map on which win rates fall more than a few percentage points outside of 50/50 is considered "broken" or that patches are expected within weeks of race balance falling a few percentage points out of 50/50.
This is a step in the right direction. There's no doubt there are going to be some nightmares in there, but any player that tells you they know exactly how every map from 2010 will play out in the modern game is wildly over-estimating their predictive ability. The brutal and messy arrival of some crazed maps (old or new) might actually result in the discovery of a new meta. It's incredibly unlikely and simply lifting a few restrictions on map makers (no regions, standard minerals) for a few maps in the off season would be a much better move, but still. This is better than nothing.
you raise some fair points, but what are you expecting honestly? blink, forcefields, medivacs, warp ins and all the stuff that maps have addapted over time aren't gonna change all of a sudden.
On September 17 2014 13:03 The_Templar wrote: I don't see why so many people are upset about this. It's for like two months, when there are no WCS tournaments, and it's experimental, and it gives them time to find new maps for next year (TL MC please)
Because some of us actually play the game.
On September 17 2014 14:31 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Fucking sick, it would be cool if they do this every year during WCS off season. Fun is good. Nostalgia is good. Community is good.
Yes but then it shouldn't be forced in the ranked ladder. If this was just unranked it'd be perfectly fine.
Let's see. Cloud Kingdom is a lock (though I fear a bit for Blink builds). Belshir Beach. Tal Darim Altar. Shakuras Plateau. A (slightly) improved Lost Temple. Testbug. Ohana.
No Daybreak pls. I feel sick now just hearing the name. We've got too much of it
Yes but then it shouldn't be forced in the ranked ladder. If this was just unranked it'd be perfectly fine.
I don't think there is any difference between ranked and unranked during the offseason. Since all those maps should be removed two weeks before wcs starts, it won't be a problem to adjust.
On September 17 2014 13:03 The_Templar wrote: I don't see why so many people are upset about this. It's for like two months, when there are no WCS tournaments, and it's experimental, and it gives them time to find new maps for next year (TL MC please)
On September 17 2014 14:31 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Fucking sick, it would be cool if they do this every year during WCS off season. Fun is good. Nostalgia is good. Community is good.
Yes but then it shouldn't be forced in the ranked ladder. If this was just unranked it'd be perfectly fine.
A very good point. All ladder maps being wacky is far from ideal. Having separate (though perhaps intersecting) map pools in ranked/unranked would be a solid move. Especially here.
Steppes of war 6pool, Kulas Ravine blink, Desert Oasis Banshee, etc etc. Good ol' times. Oh and of course, metalopolis lift to the gold , bring them strats back lolz.
On September 17 2014 10:30 Odowan Paleolithic wrote:
On September 17 2014 09:07 [PkF] Wire wrote: A map should aimed at simple things like being balanced, promoting counter-attack based and positional play, and not favoring any strategy to the point of becoming dull. You don't need to "shake the meta" to do such things.
All those ideas are not "simple things" at all. To promote counter-attack you need to have more economical path. If the attacker travels longer to attack one location from different path while the defender has a shorter travel the location (not the map) is to have a defender's advantage. This sounds simple. But add in the constrains of "you need to take a defensible third", a ramp has to be with in certain distance from the natural, you cannot have more than 3 ways to blink in/ fly in, you cannot have too many ramps chock points, you cannot do without chokes at strategic locations etc. "Standard" maps essentially limited to a map that cannot have 3rds next to each other (Deadwing on Cross Spawn), natural ramps has to be far enough from each other while the additional 4+ bases has to be closer to each other (or your "counter-attack" will become base trade), aerial/cliff distance cannot be too far from walking distance (think scrap station to habitation station, why this constraint even exist?).
The tight restrictions on map makers is the single biggest problem that Starcraft 2 suffers from. It is verging on the bizarre that BW map makers had more options with a map editor made in 1998 -although of course it was hacked into greater effectiveness over the years- than modern map makers have with a map editor made in 2010.
Sure, primarily this is a situation that results from decisions that are essentially irreversible; chokes don't restrict the time it takes for troops to move across the map, sentrys allows terrain remodelling and medivacs are made on mass allowing terrans to "skip" terrain virtually every game, warp-ins also "skip" terrain and can be done anywhere with little preparation and at no extra cost, etc. etc.
However, there is also a lack of adventurousness on the part of the community that is acting a break on map innovation -for example any map on which win rates fall more than a few percentage points outside of 50/50 is considered "broken" or that patches are expected within weeks of race balance falling a few percentage points out of 50/50.
This is a step in the right direction. There's no doubt there are going to be some nightmares in there, but any player that tells you they know exactly how every map from 2010 will play out in the modern game is wildly over-estimating their predictive ability. The brutal and messy arrival of some crazed maps (old or new) might actually result in the discovery of a new meta. It's incredibly unlikely and simply lifting a few restrictions on map makers (no regions, standard minerals) for a few maps in the off season would be a much better move, but still. This is better than nothing.
you raise some fair points, but what are you expecting honestly? blink, forcefields, medivacs, warp ins and all the stuff that maps have addapted over time aren't gonna change all of a sudden.
HotS. Every decision that the designers make should start with the question "What does this do to map design?". Some of those decisions might be to change existing units. That said, that wasn't the point. You can do a lot with maps that isn't done even with the current restrictions that the design creates.
#1 Metalopolis with cross spawns only (will probably only be ZvZ map)
#2 Cloud Kingdom, was always fun and seemed balanced enough. If any changes I would suggest having two (big) ramps on the ridge in the middle. One straight path from one natural to the other does never lead to more fun gameplay.
#3 Antiga Shipyard, Snutes gold bust was always a blast to watch!
#4 Ohana, who didn't like the familiy beach?
#5 The Shattered Temple, think this could be a fun map if gold base was redone to a normal base and rocks removed. Corner bases blocked by rocks could perhaps be gold bases. Also need cross spawns only.
#6 Polar Night, winter is coming - so we need snow maps!
On September 17 2014 18:03 Meavis wrote: when all-ins are brokenly overpowered, the only meta that can arise from that is kill them before they kill you.
Exactly. And that leads to quick, exciting and dynamic games. We need more of those. We also need Blizzard to port Blood Bath over to SC2 as well, that map is the absolute apex of fast & furious action.
Im sorry, the only thing i can think of when i see this is how they just want to do something to take away our focus from the things we actually want and dont get... putting in some maps we already had is the easiest thing they could ever do.
On September 17 2014 18:51 graNite wrote: Im sorry, the only thing i can think of when i see this is how they just want to do something to take away our focus from the things we actually want and dont get... putting in some maps we already had is the easiest thing they could ever do.
Strange prediction, taking in mind that we are somewhere near LOTV beta.
On September 17 2014 18:51 graNite wrote: Im sorry, the only thing i can think of when i see this is how they just want to do something to take away our focus from the things we actually want and dont get... putting in some maps we already had is the easiest thing they could ever do.
Strange prediction, taking in mind that we are somewhere near LOTV beta.
are we? not a single announcement of an announcement so far. In october next year, hots will be as old as wol was when hots came out
On September 17 2014 18:51 graNite wrote: Im sorry, the only thing i can think of when i see this is how they just want to do something to take away our focus from the things we actually want and dont get... putting in some maps we already had is the easiest thing they could ever do.
Strange prediction, taking in mind that we are somewhere near LOTV beta.
are we? not a single announcement of an announcement so far. In october next year, hots will be as old as wol was when hots came out
I played nearly 6 months of hots beta before it came if am not mistaken, so it's like 6 months till some of us might abuze amazon with preorder and some free LOTV beta keys. At least I hope so.
2010-2011 are by far the best maps we ever had in sc2, but I highly doubt that they works well with some HotS units because especially wm and msc are pretty op in some old maps (metalopolis, scrap station etc).
I agree with everyone saying that this would ruin the ladder experience for those who actually care to play the game if maps are not chosen carefully, and mostly among modern maps. You can't just cater for the casual who doesn't care if Steppes of War or Blistering Sands are broken, bad by test and only produce terrible games. Some maps like Overgrowth, Frost or Bel'shir Vestige should be there to ensure a fair competitive environment so that hardcore players don't have to go customs for 3 months.
On September 17 2014 19:44 [PkF] Wire wrote: I agree with everyone saying that this would ruin the ladder experience for those who actually care to play the game if maps are not chosen carefully, and mostly among modern maps. You can't just cater for the casual who doesn't care if Steppes of War or Blistering Sands are broken, bad by test and only produce terrible games. Some maps like Overgrowth, Frost or Bel'shir Vestige should be there to ensure a fair competitive environment so that hardcore players don't have to go customs for 3 months.
heh, well atleast community maps will get some time in the light then maybe, and hopefully people will start to appreciate them more after this season.
more community maps in the offseason: yes. i also like the idea of having a mix of all the wcs maps of the year (maybe take the least vetoed ones) but getting out the old ass maps that probably wont work with hots and were terrible? please no.
On September 17 2014 02:48 The_Templar wrote: I want steppes of war back. That was one of the best maps in WoL.
Because that's the only one you took from Gumba :p
Daybreak. Come back my lover ! Shakuras plateau could be cool in cross only (because tanks shoot natural). Metalopolis.. i loved that map even if you can ff the ramp
On September 17 2014 19:44 [PkF] Wire wrote: I agree with everyone saying that this would ruin the ladder experience for those who actually care to play the game if maps are not chosen carefully, and mostly among modern maps. You can't just cater for the casual who doesn't care if Steppes of War or Blistering Sands are broken, bad by test and only produce terrible games. Some maps like Overgrowth, Frost or Bel'shir Vestige should be there to ensure a fair competitive environment so that hardcore players don't have to go customs for 3 months.
heh, well atleast community maps will get some time in the light then maybe, and hopefully people will start to appreciate them more after this season.
I will rephrase it : so that hardcore players don't have to find another game for 3 months, because a lot of them just want to ladder in fair conditions. I don't think this would have any "good unforeseen" consequence if the map pool contained mostly dreadful maps.
I don't remember if I posted it here, but as much as I'm concerned with what could come from this vote, the following maps would constitute my #dreampool :
- (2) Overgrowth is a solid, gorgeous and dynamic map. A no-brainer to me. - I liked (2) Bel'shir Vestige a lot. I know it was a hard map for Zergs, but I'd like to play on it again. - (2) Habitation Station may be the only time a really strange feature (such an accessible gold !) gave an extremely stable map. It has to be there. Taken off the map pool too soon. - (2) Ohana, an agressive and really beautiful map with solid gameplay. - (4) Frost, another no-brainer, just one of the best maps ever made in basically every regard. Taken off the map pool too soon. - (3) Shakuras Plateau. You may call me crazy, but I've always been thinking this map had potential even for today standards. - And a very personal choice of mine, (2) Korhal Compound, one of my favorite maps of all time, gone off the map pool too soon and which deserved more credit.
Came close : Neo Planet S, a map I loved very much for its aesthetics and setup ; Daybreak, a map I have great memories on but on which SH play would be too fearsome ; Whirlwind, I don't really like 4 players map but that one was just a tad less good than Frost ; Entombed Valley, solid macro map but horizontal positions were plain broken ; and Red City, a map I loved because I had an insane record on it !
EDIT : and, how could I forget it, Cloud Kingdom, a map I don't want back only because the blur effect on it was really annoying. The setup of the map is one for the ages.
Of course we'll end up with Klontas Mire, Blistering Sands, Desert Oasis, Steppes of War, Daedalus Point, Foxtrot Labs and Alterzim Stronghold (#nightmarepool) because trolls and noobs who are too bad to play a normal game will want to "shake the meta", but at least you've read what, to my mind, would be a great tribute to the best maps we had the chance to play on (and no, those aren't the earlier maps if you ask me).
On September 17 2014 21:49 nimdil wrote: I liked Scrap Station
Nobody would ever leave their main TvT with medivac boost in the game -.-
- (2) Habitation Station may be the only time a really strange feature (such an accessible gold !) gave an extremely stable map. It has to be there. Taken off the map pool too soon.
Super dull map, such a big part of the map is barely used
- (2) Overgrowth is a solid, gorgeous and dynamic map. A no-brainer to me.
I think this is by far the worst map in the current map pool (Catallena second worst). Feels really tiny, don't like it... but it might just be my preference. It's definitely better than habitation station.
- (2) Habitation Station may be the only time a really strange feature (such an accessible gold !) gave an extremely stable map. It has to be there. Taken off the map pool too soon.
Super dull map, such a big part of the map is barely used
- (2) Overgrowth is a solid, gorgeous and dynamic map. A no-brainer to me.
I think this is by far the worst map in the current map pool (Catallena second worst). Feels really tiny, don't like it... but it might just be my preference. It's definitely better than habitation station.
Ah, taste and colours aren't always the same... Remember we play different races (I play Protoss), so what feels dull/tiny/uninteresting to you mapmaking wise might not be the same to what I enjoy. I admit I tend to like smaller maps which favor 3 bases play. But I have to be at a loss to understand how you can not like Overgrowth.
EDIT : by the way, I don't seem to remember you made your pool of choice. What would it be ?
The biggest reason I dislike Overgrowth is I think TvT is really boring on it because of the short distances.
I think the current map pool is the best ladder map pool SC2 has ever had. I'd replace catallena and overgrowth and keep the rest probably.
I haven't really played B'elshir Vestige much but I wouldn't mind having that in place of Overgrowth (like you said, its super pretty). The only old ladder map I remember as being very fun is Entombed Valley tbh.
With a big overhaul, I'd like to see a new version of Lost Temple (not shattered temple, the real lost temple...) But the changes would have to be quite big (entire main open to reapers and blink is probably not good for starters).
On September 17 2014 22:29 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I think the current map pool is the best ladder map pool SC2 has ever had.
Definitely one of the best.
The only old ladder map I remember as being very fun is Entombed Valley tbh.
I considered it instead of Shakuras or Korhal Compound, but horizontal positions were really broken. If the map comes back with disabled horizontal spawns (or even better, cross only) I'm all for it.
With a big overhaul, I'd like to see a new version of Lost Temple (not shattered temple, the real lost temple...) But the changes would have to be quite big (entire main open to reapers and blink is probably not good for starters).
I don't think the maps we'll get are going to be tweaked, or if they get tweaked, it's in really minor ways (spawning positions, gold -> normal, etc). An overhauled version of an old map is basically a new map.
The only old ladder map I remember as being very fun is Entombed Valley tbh.
I considered it instead of Shakuras or Korhal Compound, but horizontal positions were really broken. If the map comes back with disabled horizontal spawns (or even better, cross only) I'm all for it.
Yeah have to remove the free win position hehe..
I'd like to see Crevasse, even though it was never a ladder map. One of my favorite maps. Actually that whole batch of maps were all quite ok (they were the first batch of non-blizzard maps GSL used, it was soooo awesome to finally get to practice non-ladder maps back then: Crevasse, Terminus, Crossfire and Tal'Darim).
Crossfire, Crevasse would definitely be great additions (I hated TDA with passion -play Protoss, enough said- and Terminus is just meh if you ask me), but sadly Psione said on the battle.net thread they'll only consider past ladder maps.
EDIT : was mixing up Terminus and Testbug, Terminus was indeed a great map that could still be played today. And I didn't remember Crossfire had such a hard third ; I guess it would not be suited for modern play.
On September 17 2014 21:49 nimdil wrote: I liked Scrap Station
Nobody would ever leave their main TvT with medivac boost in the game -.-
True, I'd not even try to argue that this map will make sense in current metagame but your game vs MC when you went Mech in GSL is one of the most memorable SC2 games ever. And Artosis practically announced TvP revolution at the time.
On September 17 2014 22:39 [PkF] Wire wrote: Crossfire, Crevasse would definitely be great additions (I hated TDA with passion -play Protoss, enough said- and Terminus is just meh if you ask me), but sadly Psione said on the battle.net thread they'll only consider past ladder maps.
EDIT : was mixing up Terminus and Testbug, Terminus was indeed a great map that could still be played today.
I dont like TDA either, I was never any good at it... and I have bad memories of playing TvPs vs hero on it before they patched the khaydarin crystal................... unkillable infinity storms -_--;;;;
On September 17 2014 22:42 Liquid`Jinro wrote: unkillable infinity storms -_--;;;;
Ha ha ha, as for me, I have really bad memories of PvP on this map (gateway rushes were impossible to deal with) and I still have some nightmares which involve mutas -the simple thought of a regen mutas flock on this map makes me shiver...
I think if Blizzard monitors the preselection wisely, we could end up having a quite pretty map pool. Current ladder maps should be on the voting list by default because a lot of people don't understand that we can vote for really old classics but also for every past ladder map. Then I hope people come back to their senses and vote for solid maps.
On September 17 2014 22:47 Franky92 wrote: Red City :D :D
You say that as if it was a joke, but I really loved that map. I guess it was a bit chokey so quite imbalanced as far as PvZ goes, but I have really sweet memories on it.
well i dont get this... to lazy to make new ones??? the old maps will have significant balance problems in hots... cloud kingdom f.e. blink would be to strong on that map... etc... bring new maps blizz not that old shit ...
Yeonsu & Coud Kingdom - cause they're the best maps
Desert Oasis & Scrap station - cause they're the most w.t.f.
Terminus RE & Tal'Darim Altar - cause of Macro
and
Xel'Naga Caverns - cause of classic
Bonus: give us an all-island map (can balance how many bases the islands have - doesn't mean only one base per island, but would be cool to have as many air wars as possible on it), and see how that one goes actually
There was one map all on islands (except your natural) in BW - make something like that and let us try it
On September 17 2014 18:03 Meavis wrote: when all-ins are brokenly overpowered, the only meta that can arise from that is kill them before they kill you.
Exactly. And that leads to quick, exciting and dynamic games. We need more of those. We also need Blizzard to port Blood Bath over to SC2 as well, that map is the absolute apex of fast & furious action.
I might switch back to Zerg for a season just to roach rush like back in ye olde 2010 Platinum League days
On September 17 2014 23:03 VArsovskiSC wrote: Yeonsu & Coud Kingdom - cause they're the best maps
Desert Oasis & Scrap station - cause they're the most w.t.f.
Terminus RE & Tal'Darim Altar - cause of Macro
and
Xel'Naga Caverns - cause of classic
Bonus: give us an all-island map (can balance how many bases the islands have - doesn't mean only one base per island, but would be cool to have as many air wars as possible on it), and see how that one goes actually
There was one map all on islands (except your natural) in BW - make something like that and let us try it
There were many island maps throughout BWs history. In the beginning there was Dire Straits (several huge mains disconnected by short spaces of air).
OSL and WCG used Hall of Valhalla (a semi-island map with mains on high ground without ramps), and later OSL used Forbidden Zone (the best semi-island map there was IMO). WCG later used Gorky Park (super Terran map, yet somehow a zerg won WCG that year), and Estrella (both semi island maps).
MSL had an island map as well... can't remember the name of it tho. Nal_rA had a crazy game on it vs oov or nada... I think. Charity? Maybe?
ITV had Isles of Siren, a full island map with an inbase natural.
I'm not sure it's possible to make a fullisland map in SC2 that's balanced (I think vikings are problematic, in BW you played goliath drops a lot on these maps, but while vikings are similar to goliaths they are not as strong with the trade-off of being able to fly, but too slow to get away from P and Z air), semi-island might work tho.
On September 18 2014 00:26 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: I wonder if a tempest rush would work on Scrap Station.
YES YES YES YES YES
Oh Scrap Station. Proxying an oracle on it will constitute building a stargate in your own base. A weird paradox of both proxying and not proxying at the same time. I wish we had the old mothership so we could still do mothership mass recall rushes on it.
In all seriousness, I would love to give Cloud Kingdom another go. I still think that is one of the best maps in the history of SC2. Blink might be an issue on it but outside of that it was, and continues to be one of my favourite maps to play on. It was also the only map I ever was not sick of by the end of it being on ladder. The only other map that came close was Daybreak in WoL. Once people figured out swarmhosts on Daybreak though, I no longer liked it.
I would also like to give Entombed Valley another go. That map provided a ton of incredibly good games back in the day, especially in PvT.
Likewise with Metalopolis. Yeah it would be nightmarish with oracles and speed medivacs, but at least it would be interesting. It would have to be cross positions only as close by air would be completely busted in every way.
Yeah that should be it hehe Didn't remember they had 2 games on it.
Oh and there was Paradox (look up Joyo vs BoxeR on there), and the map Nal_rA (I think?) did the mass hallu arbiter recall vs goodfriend (Parallel Lines).
Oh and 815: semi island, ramp so small only marines/zealots/zerglings and workers can walk down. Arkanoid: semi island with huge neutral building blocks everywhere. Monty Hall: semi-island, with 3 paths to your main each blocked by low mineral count mineral blocks.
Hmmmmm and the crazy one my friend (Travin) made that was used one Blizzcon I think. Can't remember name but it was hilarious - you spawned on a shared island with a mineral wall separating you. Lots of mineral walking glitches to rush and stuff haha Found it: http://www.panschk.de/mappage/comments.php?mapid=335
The people who are saying this idea is "terrible" are the same people who helped nearly kill the game off in 2012 with their insistence on stale cookie cutter macro maps in the mold of Daybreak.
I get that it's disruptive to the handful of individuals who actually make a living off playing, but at the same time, their livelihood is very much tied into general fan interest. Not that this will resolve all issues, but it may help give people more appreciation for the game's history and, in turn, its future.
On September 18 2014 01:04 jdsowa wrote: The people who are saying this idea is "terrible" are the same people who helped nearly kill the game off in 2012 with their insistence on stale cookie cutter macro maps in the mold of Daybreak.
I get that it's disruptive to the handful of individuals who actually make a living off playing, but at the same time, their livelihood is very much tied into general fan interest. Not that this will resolve all issues, but it may help give people more appreciation for the game's history and, in turn, its future.
This is more for the fans anyways.
There have been many threads on battle.net requesting old maps be brought back, so Blizzard decided to let the fans choose which maps.
This won't hurt the progamers by much though, because this is the WCS off-season. No official WCS matches will be played with these maps, at least I don't think so.
It would be interesting to see which maps the progamers want though. TL writers make it happen please!
On September 18 2014 00:14 ZAiNs wrote: I thought this would be ONE of the maps, not seven... Ladder might be ruined for a few months?
Yeah it will. People who want to practise real games will have to play customs. Going to be so annoying to have to get so many practise partners and I enjoy the ladder style of playing vs different opponents and different MUs. They could have added just a few old maps and add more vetos so people who want to fool around on broken maps can do so and people who want to play can do so on the ladder as well.
On September 18 2014 01:04 jdsowa wrote: The people who are saying this idea is "terrible" are the same people who helped nearly kill the game off in 2012 with their insistence on stale cookie cutter macro maps in the mold of Daybreak.
I get that it's disruptive to the handful of individuals who actually make a living off playing, but at the same time, their livelihood is very much tied into general fan interest. Not that this will resolve all issues, but it may help give people more appreciation for the game's history and, in turn, its future.
This is more for the fans anyways.
There have been many threads on battle.net requesting old maps be brought back, so Blizzard decided to let the fans choose which maps.
This won't hurt the progamers by much though, because this is the WCS off-season. No official WCS matches will be played with these maps, at least I don't think so.
It would be interesting to see which maps the progamers want though. TL writers make it happen please!
I doubt the pros will ladder much at all if old maps come through that won't be used in WCS. It's just a waste of valuable practice time. If they were just mixing in one or two old maps for casual fans then that's one thing, but this is just an annoyance for anyone that plays competitively. Pros will just stick to customs for a few months most likely.
On September 17 2014 19:44 [PkF] Wire wrote: I agree with everyone saying that this would ruin the ladder experience for those who actually care to play the game if maps are not chosen carefully, and mostly among modern maps. You can't just cater for the casual who doesn't care if Steppes of War or Blistering Sands are broken, bad by test and only produce terrible games. Some maps like Overgrowth, Frost or Bel'shir Vestige should be there to ensure a fair competitive environment so that hardcore players don't have to go customs for 3 months.
heh, well atleast community maps will get some time in the light then maybe, and hopefully people will start to appreciate them more after this season.
I will rephrase it : so that hardcore players don't have to find another game for 3 months, because a lot of them just want to ladder in fair conditions. I don't think this would have any "good unforeseen" consequence if the map pool contained mostly dreadful maps.
Are you suggesting the players in 2010 to 2012 are not hardcore?
On September 17 2014 19:44 [PkF] Wire wrote: I agree with everyone saying that this would ruin the ladder experience for those who actually care to play the game if maps are not chosen carefully, and mostly among modern maps. You can't just cater for the casual who doesn't care if Steppes of War or Blistering Sands are broken, bad by test and only produce terrible games. Some maps like Overgrowth, Frost or Bel'shir Vestige should be there to ensure a fair competitive environment so that hardcore players don't have to go customs for 3 months.
heh, well atleast community maps will get some time in the light then maybe, and hopefully people will start to appreciate them more after this season.
I will rephrase it : so that hardcore players don't have to find another game for 3 months, because a lot of them just want to ladder in fair conditions. I don't think this would have any "good unforeseen" consequence if the map pool contained mostly dreadful maps.
Are you suggesting the players in 2010 to 2012 are not hardcore?
We all fucking hated the ladder map pool.
It's like we had to complain a ton to get the map pool be bearable, and now people are like "LETS GO BACK TO THE OLD DAYS", because they view it through the rosey tint of their hipster-approved nostalgia glasses. Once you actually get to playing tho, you'll soon realize that ze goggles, they do nothing.
On September 18 2014 01:04 jdsowa wrote: The people who are saying this idea is "terrible" are the same people who helped nearly kill the game off in 2012 with their insistence on stale cookie cutter macro maps in the mold of Daybreak.
I get that it's disruptive to the handful of individuals who actually make a living off playing, but at the same time, their livelihood is very much tied into general fan interest. Not that this will resolve all issues, but it may help give people more appreciation for the game's history and, in turn, its future.
This is more for the fans anyways.
There have been many threads on battle.net requesting old maps be brought back, so Blizzard decided to let the fans choose which maps.
This won't hurt the progamers by much though, because this is the WCS off-season. No official WCS matches will be played with these maps, at least I don't think so.
It would be interesting to see which maps the progamers want though. TL writers make it happen please!
I doubt the pros will ladder much at all if old maps come through that won't be used in WCS. It's just a waste of valuable practice time. If they were just mixing in one or two old maps for casual fans then that's one thing, but this is just an annoyance for anyone that plays competitively. Pros will just stick to customs for a few months most likely.
Most importantly, pros aren't the only ones that play competitively.
Also, what Jinro said. The ladder map pool started being passable when the first TLMC maps were introduced.
On September 18 2014 01:43 Odowan Paleolithic wrote:
On September 17 2014 20:12 [PkF] Wire wrote:
On September 17 2014 19:47 Meavis wrote:
On September 17 2014 19:44 [PkF] Wire wrote: I agree with everyone saying that this would ruin the ladder experience for those who actually care to play the game if maps are not chosen carefully, and mostly among modern maps. You can't just cater for the casual who doesn't care if Steppes of War or Blistering Sands are broken, bad by test and only produce terrible games. Some maps like Overgrowth, Frost or Bel'shir Vestige should be there to ensure a fair competitive environment so that hardcore players don't have to go customs for 3 months.
heh, well atleast community maps will get some time in the light then maybe, and hopefully people will start to appreciate them more after this season.
I will rephrase it : so that hardcore players don't have to find another game for 3 months, because a lot of them just want to ladder in fair conditions. I don't think this would have any "good unforeseen" consequence if the map pool contained mostly dreadful maps.
Are you suggesting the players in 2010 to 2012 are not hardcore?
We all fucking hated the ladder map pool.
It's like we had to complain a ton to get the map pool be bearable, and now people are like "LETS GO BACK TO THE OLD DAYS", because they view it through the rosey tint of their hipster-approved nostalgia glasses. Once you actually get to playing tho, you'll soon realize that ze goggles, they do nothing.
And yet, you yourself pretty much stopped playing the game right as the 'good' macro maps entered the pool. And viewership tanked soon after, as well, due to the stale meta that they produced.
On September 18 2014 01:43 Odowan Paleolithic wrote:
On September 17 2014 20:12 [PkF] Wire wrote:
On September 17 2014 19:47 Meavis wrote:
On September 17 2014 19:44 [PkF] Wire wrote: I agree with everyone saying that this would ruin the ladder experience for those who actually care to play the game if maps are not chosen carefully, and mostly among modern maps. You can't just cater for the casual who doesn't care if Steppes of War or Blistering Sands are broken, bad by test and only produce terrible games. Some maps like Overgrowth, Frost or Bel'shir Vestige should be there to ensure a fair competitive environment so that hardcore players don't have to go customs for 3 months.
heh, well atleast community maps will get some time in the light then maybe, and hopefully people will start to appreciate them more after this season.
I will rephrase it : so that hardcore players don't have to find another game for 3 months, because a lot of them just want to ladder in fair conditions. I don't think this would have any "good unforeseen" consequence if the map pool contained mostly dreadful maps.
Are you suggesting the players in 2010 to 2012 are not hardcore?
We all fucking hated the ladder map pool.
It's like we had to complain a ton to get the map pool be bearable, and now people are like "LETS GO BACK TO THE OLD DAYS", because they view it through the rosey tint of their hipster-approved nostalgia glasses. Once you actually get to playing tho, you'll soon realize that ze goggles, they do nothing.
And yet, you yourself pretty much stopped playing the game right as the 'good' macro maps entered the pool. And viewership tanked soon after, as well, due to the stale meta that they produced.
The maps alone didn't produce anything wrong. Zerg just so happened to be completely and hopelessly broken.
On September 18 2014 01:43 Odowan Paleolithic wrote:
On September 17 2014 20:12 [PkF] Wire wrote:
On September 17 2014 19:47 Meavis wrote:
On September 17 2014 19:44 [PkF] Wire wrote: I agree with everyone saying that this would ruin the ladder experience for those who actually care to play the game if maps are not chosen carefully, and mostly among modern maps. You can't just cater for the casual who doesn't care if Steppes of War or Blistering Sands are broken, bad by test and only produce terrible games. Some maps like Overgrowth, Frost or Bel'shir Vestige should be there to ensure a fair competitive environment so that hardcore players don't have to go customs for 3 months.
heh, well atleast community maps will get some time in the light then maybe, and hopefully people will start to appreciate them more after this season.
I will rephrase it : so that hardcore players don't have to find another game for 3 months, because a lot of them just want to ladder in fair conditions. I don't think this would have any "good unforeseen" consequence if the map pool contained mostly dreadful maps.
Are you suggesting the players in 2010 to 2012 are not hardcore?
We all fucking hated the ladder map pool.
It's like we had to complain a ton to get the map pool be bearable, and now people are like "LETS GO BACK TO THE OLD DAYS", because they view it through the rosey tint of their hipster-approved nostalgia glasses. Once you actually get to playing tho, you'll soon realize that ze goggles, they do nothing.
And yet, you yourself pretty much stopped playing the game right as the 'good' macro maps entered the pool. And viewership tanked soon after, as well, due to the stale meta that they produced.
I quit because I was miserable, and mostly it wasn't anything to do with the game.
I've played >200 games this season tho, and am very confident in saying the current maps are far superior to anything in that time period.
On September 18 2014 02:54 [SXG]Phantom wrote: Scrap Station because i want to watch the world burn!
If it gets picked, I look forward to showing players who weren't around the first year of SC2 why there is a standard size to ramps leading into the main
On September 18 2014 01:43 Odowan Paleolithic wrote:
On September 17 2014 20:12 [PkF] Wire wrote:
On September 17 2014 19:47 Meavis wrote:
On September 17 2014 19:44 [PkF] Wire wrote: I agree with everyone saying that this would ruin the ladder experience for those who actually care to play the game if maps are not chosen carefully, and mostly among modern maps. You can't just cater for the casual who doesn't care if Steppes of War or Blistering Sands are broken, bad by test and only produce terrible games. Some maps like Overgrowth, Frost or Bel'shir Vestige should be there to ensure a fair competitive environment so that hardcore players don't have to go customs for 3 months.
heh, well atleast community maps will get some time in the light then maybe, and hopefully people will start to appreciate them more after this season.
I will rephrase it : so that hardcore players don't have to find another game for 3 months, because a lot of them just want to ladder in fair conditions. I don't think this would have any "good unforeseen" consequence if the map pool contained mostly dreadful maps.
Are you suggesting the players in 2010 to 2012 are not hardcore?
We all fucking hated the ladder map pool.
It's like we had to complain a ton to get the map pool be bearable, and now people are like "LETS GO BACK TO THE OLD DAYS", because they view it through the rosey tint of their hipster-approved nostalgia glasses. Once you actually get to playing tho, you'll soon realize that ze goggles, they do nothing.
On September 18 2014 01:19 RaiZ wrote: Please, Just don't bring Cloud Kingdom back. I'm so fed up of this overplayed map.
I don't think you will get what you wish. You stated it was an "overplayed" map; which means it was a favoured map.
I don't care which maps comes back, but I wonder how smaller maps will play out in HotS.
Does anyone know which map had the shortest natural-natural distance?
I think it was that beauty of map delta quadrant if you're talking natural to natural if you're not on cross positions there is literally one scree separating you (a gold base actually)
On September 18 2014 02:54 [SXG]Phantom wrote: Scrap Station because i want to watch the world burn!
If it gets picked, I look forward to showing players who weren't around the first year of SC2 why there is a standard size to ramps leading into the main
On September 18 2014 01:43 Odowan Paleolithic wrote:
On September 17 2014 20:12 [PkF] Wire wrote:
On September 17 2014 19:47 Meavis wrote:
On September 17 2014 19:44 [PkF] Wire wrote: I agree with everyone saying that this would ruin the ladder experience for those who actually care to play the game if maps are not chosen carefully, and mostly among modern maps. You can't just cater for the casual who doesn't care if Steppes of War or Blistering Sands are broken, bad by test and only produce terrible games. Some maps like Overgrowth, Frost or Bel'shir Vestige should be there to ensure a fair competitive environment so that hardcore players don't have to go customs for 3 months.
heh, well atleast community maps will get some time in the light then maybe, and hopefully people will start to appreciate them more after this season.
I will rephrase it : so that hardcore players don't have to find another game for 3 months, because a lot of them just want to ladder in fair conditions. I don't think this would have any "good unforeseen" consequence if the map pool contained mostly dreadful maps.
Are you suggesting the players in 2010 to 2012 are not hardcore?
We all fucking hated the ladder map pool.
It's like we had to complain a ton to get the map pool be bearable, and now people are like "LETS GO BACK TO THE OLD DAYS", because they view it through the rosey tint of their hipster-approved nostalgia glasses. Once you actually get to playing tho, you'll soon realize that ze goggles, they do nothing.
And yet, you yourself pretty much stopped playing the game right as the 'good' macro maps entered the pool. And viewership tanked soon after, as well, due to the stale meta that they produced.
The maps alone didn't produce anything wrong. Zerg just so happened to be completely and hopelessly broken.
IMO, "balance" is still broken if competitive players want the ladder pool to comprise of 1 map with 7 variations of doodad placement.
On September 18 2014 01:43 Odowan Paleolithic wrote:
On September 17 2014 20:12 [PkF] Wire wrote:
On September 17 2014 19:47 Meavis wrote:
On September 17 2014 19:44 [PkF] Wire wrote: I agree with everyone saying that this would ruin the ladder experience for those who actually care to play the game if maps are not chosen carefully, and mostly among modern maps. You can't just cater for the casual who doesn't care if Steppes of War or Blistering Sands are broken, bad by test and only produce terrible games. Some maps like Overgrowth, Frost or Bel'shir Vestige should be there to ensure a fair competitive environment so that hardcore players don't have to go customs for 3 months.
heh, well atleast community maps will get some time in the light then maybe, and hopefully people will start to appreciate them more after this season.
I will rephrase it : so that hardcore players don't have to find another game for 3 months, because a lot of them just want to ladder in fair conditions. I don't think this would have any "good unforeseen" consequence if the map pool contained mostly dreadful maps.
Are you suggesting the players in 2010 to 2012 are not hardcore?
We all fucking hated the ladder map pool.
It's like we had to complain a ton to get the map pool be bearable, and now people are like "LETS GO BACK TO THE OLD DAYS", because they view it through the rosey tint of their hipster-approved nostalgia glasses. Once you actually get to playing tho, you'll soon realize that ze goggles, they do nothing.
And yet, you yourself pretty much stopped playing the game right as the 'good' macro maps entered the pool. And viewership tanked soon after, as well, due to the stale meta that they produced.
The maps alone didn't produce anything wrong. Zerg just so happened to be completely and hopelessly broken.
IMO, "balance" is still broken if competitive players want the ladder pool to comprise of 1 map with 7 variations of doodad placement.
I disagree, there are significant differences between today's maps even if they are nuanced and hard to see at first. Or do you think pros would unanimously agree that WCS map vetos are irrelevant (if they're just 7 versions of 1 map) and should be thrown out?
Non-standard maps (too short rush distances, no main ramps, open naturals) generally won't work because of the game design of SC2. That's not a balance issue though and I don't think it's relevant to the conversation.
On September 18 2014 01:43 Odowan Paleolithic wrote:
On September 17 2014 20:12 [PkF] Wire wrote:
On September 17 2014 19:47 Meavis wrote:
On September 17 2014 19:44 [PkF] Wire wrote: I agree with everyone saying that this would ruin the ladder experience for those who actually care to play the game if maps are not chosen carefully, and mostly among modern maps. You can't just cater for the casual who doesn't care if Steppes of War or Blistering Sands are broken, bad by test and only produce terrible games. Some maps like Overgrowth, Frost or Bel'shir Vestige should be there to ensure a fair competitive environment so that hardcore players don't have to go customs for 3 months.
heh, well atleast community maps will get some time in the light then maybe, and hopefully people will start to appreciate them more after this season.
I will rephrase it : so that hardcore players don't have to find another game for 3 months, because a lot of them just want to ladder in fair conditions. I don't think this would have any "good unforeseen" consequence if the map pool contained mostly dreadful maps.
Are you suggesting the players in 2010 to 2012 are not hardcore?
We all fucking hated the ladder map pool.
It's like we had to complain a ton to get the map pool be bearable, and now people are like "LETS GO BACK TO THE OLD DAYS", because they view it through the rosey tint of their hipster-approved nostalgia glasses. Once you actually get to playing tho, you'll soon realize that ze goggles, they do nothing.
And yet, you yourself pretty much stopped playing the game right as the 'good' macro maps entered the pool. And viewership tanked soon after, as well, due to the stale meta that they produced.
The maps alone didn't produce anything wrong. Zerg just so happened to be completely and hopelessly broken.
IMO, "balance" is still broken if competitive players want the ladder pool to comprise of 1 map with 7 variations of doodad placement.
I can't do anything for you if you're too blind to see the blatant differences between Nimbus, Frost, Overgrowth or Habitation Station. Saying modern maps are just doodad variations of each other is plain stupid. People seem to want maps to favor gimmick strats and to be very specific, but that's just bad design.
I want great old maps, not the shitty ones for nostalgia's sake. I'm ok with taldarim, cloud kingdom or even shattered temple but please leave the stepps of war or incineration zone shit out of my face.
This isn't a terrible idea, but they need to do it shortly before LotV hits to get older players interested in the game again to give them the impression that they can just pick up where they left off when they quit playing in WoL or so.
yea this looks cool i think if they do bring back these old crazy maps they need to be reworked a little.
Well, to be honest, it is pretty okay rework, some maps don't need any reworks, like cloud kingdom, crevasse and frost, some need slight changes like entombed valley spawns. But this one with so huge reworks might actually be very okay. Kinda interesting, how would u remake Kulas Ravine :D
On September 18 2014 07:10 Morbidius wrote: I'm looking forward to seeing how it will play out
All-ins, all-ins, and then all-ins.
Yeah, let's shake the meta and play the game on maps that are so flawed a toddler could see they make no sense, so that any remotely serious player's ladder experience gets unbearable.
To everybody who thinks zerg will have a tough time on Steppes, remember that the 12 drone rush gets to the opponent's base when they only have 11 workers on that map.
Yeah... I feel like 3 months is really going to be a bit much if this is honestly left open to what the community will vote for... Unless they plan to HEAVILY censor the choices down to just the maps that are actually playable this would be better as like a two-week event.
Wonder if they will add doodads to the ramps of old maps or if they want zergs to experience the glory that is their birthright of 3 bunker or pylon blocks at their ramps
On September 18 2014 10:07 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Wonder if they will add doodads to the ramps of old maps or if they want zergs to experience the glory that is their birthright of 3 bunker or pylon blocks at their ramps
You're not truly an SC2 zerg until you've had that happen to you at least 3 times, once for every pylon at the bottom of that fucking ramp.
On September 18 2014 10:07 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Wonder if they will add doodads to the ramps of old maps or if they want zergs to experience the glory that is their birthright of 3 bunker or pylon blocks at their ramps
You're not truly an SC2 zerg until you've had that happen to you at least 3 times, once for every pylon at the bottom of that fucking ramp.
And thats despite patrolling a drone there at the start of the game.
On September 18 2014 10:07 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Wonder if they will add doodads to the ramps of old maps or if they want zergs to experience the glory that is their birthright of 3 bunker or pylon blocks at their ramps
You're not truly an SC2 zerg until you've had that happen to you at least 3 times, once for every pylon at the bottom of that fucking ramp.
And thats despite patrolling a drone there at the start of the game.
Patrolling ever only works on fucking youtube videos and GSL that lazy fucking douche bag.
On September 18 2014 06:28 ZenithM wrote: OH YES! Give us back Metalopolis!
this. Even though I'm not playing SCII, I would be willing to play a game or two on old maps for Nostalgia's sake. Steppes of War, Metalopolis, Blistering Sands, Jungle Basin, please!!!!!!!
For those disbelieving in Steppes of War. I actually went and played a few very bad games and it seems ok. I wasn't bored at all. It is volatile and in PvT protoss just have to open 10 gate or 12 gate.
On September 18 2014 10:07 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Wonder if they will add doodads to the ramps of old maps or if they want zergs to experience the glory that is their birthright of 3 bunker or pylon blocks at their ramps
On September 18 2014 16:14 Odowan Paleolithic wrote: For those disbelieving in Steppes of War. I actually went and played a few very bad games and it seems ok. I wasn't bored at all. It is volatile and in PvT protoss just have to open 10 gate or 12 gate.
It's a good thought and guesture. Unfortunately Unless you got Jaedong, Flash and Rain to play customs I don't think it's will satisfy people around here.
Your point kind of confirms that this is something bliz is doing for more casual players who would like a brief switch to more volitile maps with lots of nostalgia.
what do you think about if blizzard would rotate in maps during the season so everyone can see there favorite maps, like go through the every map pool each week or every 2 weeks. would be fun idk about the how long the maps should stay 2-3 weeks sounds good but theres alot of maps so maybe 2.
or do a top 21 maps and rotate in 7 at a time (if theres a 3 month season i forget how long they are lol)
On September 18 2014 10:07 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Wonder if they will add doodads to the ramps of old maps or if they want zergs to experience the glory that is their birthright of 3 bunker or pylon blocks at their ramps
NesTea vs Byun [on Metropolis?]... Never forget.
I'm sorry, 3 bunkers? What was I thinking. You only need 2.
On September 18 2014 10:07 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Wonder if they will add doodads to the ramps of old maps or if they want zergs to experience the glory that is their birthright of 3 bunker or pylon blocks at their ramps
I wonder if you can hit the main from your own with a tempest on incineration zone... We could ask they remove the rocks from base to base too !
Oh god fuck that imagine the trolls at blizzard : Okay gys, the map pool will be :
- Steppes of War - Scrap station - Blistering Sands (because 2 base are good) - Lost temple, close spawn only (you could blink to the main so i think a tempest in base can shoot to the other main. Maybe even a photon overcharge lol) - Desert oasis (because why do we need ramps. Or a third) - Kulas ravine (remember the lift to the 3rd, 3port banshee ?)
Wait... we need another one ? Bring back that green maps with the horizontal thingy we did a few season ago. Then when that was vetoed the most. Or Jungle bassin
On September 18 2014 23:02 Tzyx wrote: Whats the BIGGEST map thats been on ladder so far? I'd love to have that one. Something that's so ridiculously big.
Sky Harvester at (232x209) is the biggest ladder map, but for 4v4. Condemned Ridge (208x200) is the biggest 1v1 ladder map, even bigger than Alterzim Stronghold (192x192) and Zerus Prime (172x156). TDA (180x180) was pretty big as well. Deadwing clocks in at (172x172), and all of those maps make Whirlwind look downright small at (160x160).
On September 18 2014 23:02 Tzyx wrote: Whats the BIGGEST map thats been on ladder so far? I'd love to have that one. Something that's so ridiculously big.
Sky Harvester at (232x209) is the biggest ladder map, but for 4v4. Condemned Ridge (208x200) is the biggest 1v1 ladder map, even bigger than Alterzim Stronghold (192x192) and Zerus Prime (172x156). TDA (180x180) was pretty big as well. Deadwing clocks in at (172x172), and all of those maps make Whirlwind look downright small at (160x160).
I thought Whirlwind was bigger than Deadwing. It seems bigger. And Condemned Ridge is so freaking big!
On September 18 2014 10:07 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Wonder if they will add doodads to the ramps of old maps or if they want zergs to experience the glory that is their birthright of 3 bunker or pylon blocks at their ramps
On September 18 2014 10:07 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Wonder if they will add doodads to the ramps of old maps or if they want zergs to experience the glory that is their birthright of 3 bunker or pylon blocks at their ramps
On September 18 2014 10:07 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Wonder if they will add doodads to the ramps of old maps or if they want zergs to experience the glory that is their birthright of 3 bunker or pylon blocks at their ramps
On September 17 2014 02:56 Zheryn wrote: I see why they are doing this for the off-season or whatever you want to call it, but it's going to be pretty annoying to not be able to use the ladder anything if you want to practise competetive games. Playing Scrap Station, Antiga Shipyard etc will not be that useful when the next competetive season will hopefully have maps suited for HotS play.
Edit: Just think about how many stuff would be completely broken and only be fun for the first few days (tanks without siege mode denying ppls naturals from their own naturals, tempests shooting from one main to another, swarm hosts making people wish they were in BL infestor era at Daybreak...
well its no wcs season so there is no superbig megaimportent event, and also you cant do it right for every tournament, the players then can play in custom np, you have to make not only the pros but the mass happy and thats the best way
best part is when 99% are happy, and then 1% flame and shit about that by saying blizzad "fucks and shits" about the community and all that, like the 1% speak for everyone xD
On September 19 2014 04:40 Drake wrote: best part is when 99% are happy, and then 1% flame and shit about that by saying blizzad "fucks and shits" about the community and all that, like the 1% speak for everyone xD
I like your arbitrary numbers. I don't think 99% would be happy with getting Metalopolis and Incineration Zone back in the map pool, but maybe I'm delusional
On September 19 2014 04:40 Drake wrote: best part is when 99% are happy, and then 1% flame and shit about that by saying blizzad "fucks and shits" about the community and all that, like the 1% speak for everyone xD
I like your arbitrary numbers. I don't think 99% would be happy with getting Metalopolis and Incineration Zone back in the map pool, but maybe I'm delusional
Id say 99% would be low balling how much people will love the nostalgia of this 1 season event. A chance to try new strats in old maps, or the chance to play the old strats that brought them into the game in the maps they first learned them in--but with nearly half a decade more play experience so they could actually hit the timings they couldn't before.
A return to heavy 1base play predicated on heavy and constant aggression from both sides.
On September 19 2014 06:20 Thieving Magpie wrote: Yeah, 99% is too low a number.
I knew there were a lot of dumb people on the planet, but I definitely underestimated the percentage. I guess the 1% selected few who've got a brain should already prepare for a wasted ladder season because Steppes of War will be "so much lolz duh".
The interesting thing won't be this season, it'll be the one afterwards. It'll be interesting to see if there are lots more aggressive builds when the game reverts to standard maps.
On September 19 2014 07:09 Yonnua wrote: The interesting thing won't be this season, it'll be the one afterwards. It'll be interesting to see if there are lots more aggressive builds when the game reverts to standard maps.
Call me delusional maybe the pendulum will swing the other way and we will make a new definition of "standard" map.
You get more action as soon as the game begins. This definitely increased my protossing difficulty.
On September 19 2014 06:20 Thieving Magpie wrote: Yeah, 99% is too low a number.
I knew there were a lot of dumb people on the planet, but I definitely underestimated the percentage. I guess the 1% selected few who've got a brain should already prepare for a wasted ladder season because Steppes of War will be "so much lolz duh".
Dude, why are you getting so damn upset?
Look at it like this...the map pool will give you a chance to hone your early/midgame - even if some things are bullshit. It's a throwback to the way things used to be. Sure the maps are radically different - but you can adapt your builds and playstyle for two months...
You're also overreacting. We don't even know what maps have been picked yet. Until we do, why go so crazy?
On September 19 2014 06:20 Thieving Magpie wrote: Yeah, 99% is too low a number.
I knew there were a lot of dumb people on the planet, but I definitely underestimated the percentage. I guess the 1% selected few who've got a brain should already prepare for a wasted ladder season because Steppes of War will be "so much lolz duh".
Dude, why are you getting so damn upset?
Look at it like this...the map pool will give you a chance to hone your early/midgame - even if some things are bullshit. It's a throwback to the way things used to be. Sure the maps are radically different - but you can adapt your builds and playstyle for two months...
You're also overreacting. We don't even know what maps have been picked yet. Until we do, why go so crazy?
I'm appalled because everyone with half a brain cried tears of pain when seeing the ladder maps back in 2010-2011, and after years of complaining to get a somewhat balanced and well-designed map pool, we want to get back the maps that were horrible back then, and will still be horrible today ? "We'll see more agressive strats", "this will shake the meta", my ass, and people complain TvT is dull because it's 1 base play ? Open your eyes, the games on those maps will be dreadful and you'll be sick of them after a week. People could ask for Overgrowth, Nimbus and Frost, and most of the posts I read are looking forward to Scrap Station, Metalopolis or Blistering Sands. This is not a matter of taste, this is a matter of logical reasoning and telling what is terrible beyond human understanding and what is great, this is the difference between One Direction and fucking Mozart.
Maybe this #dreampool (dream of whom ? Of a retarded 13-year old troll ?) will end up being OKish, there has been some great maps in recent times. Even maps like Entombed Valley or Shakuras Plateau could and should be given a shot. But when I see people actually yearning for Steppes of War or Scrap Station like they weren't the most terrible maps ever, I'm sorry, it really sets my teeth on edge.
Oh, and please give a think about this poetic metaphor I already proposed earlier in this thread : if you spent your infancy eating shit, would it taste good to you today because of nostalgia ?
On September 19 2014 06:20 Thieving Magpie wrote: Yeah, 99% is too low a number.
I knew there were a lot of dumb people on the planet, but I definitely underestimated the percentage. I guess the 1% selected few who've got a brain should already prepare for a wasted ladder season because Steppes of War will be "so much lolz duh".
Dude, why are you getting so damn upset?
Look at it like this...the map pool will give you a chance to hone your early/midgame - even if some things are bullshit. It's a throwback to the way things used to be. Sure the maps are radically different - but you can adapt your builds and playstyle for two months...
You're also overreacting. We don't even know what maps have been picked yet. Until we do, why go so crazy?
I'm appalled because everyone with half a brain cried tears of pain when seeing the ladder maps back in 2010-2011, and after years of complaining to get a somewhat balanced and well-designed map pool, we want to get back the maps that were horrible back then, and will still be horrible today ? "We'll see more agressive strats", "this will shake the meta", my ass, and people complain TvT is dull because it's 1 base play ? Open your eyes, the games on those maps will be dreadful and you'll be sick of them after a week. People could ask for Overgrowth, Nimbus and Frost, and most of the posts I read are looking forward to Scrap Station, Metalopolis or Blistering Sands. This is not a matter of taste, this is a matter of logical reasoning and telling what is terrible beyond human understanding and what is great, this is the difference between One Direction and fucking Mozart.
Maybe this #dreampool (dream of whom ? Of a retarded 13-year old troll ?) will end up being OKish, there has been some great maps in recent times. Even maps like Entombed Valley or Shakuras Plateau could and should be given a shot. But when I see people actually yearning for Steppes of War or Scrap Station like they weren't the most terrible maps ever, I'm sorry, it really sets my teeth on edge.
Oh, and please give a think about this poetic metaphor I already proposed earlier in this thread : if you spent your infancy eating shit, would it taste good to you today because of nostalgia ?
It won't necessarily taste good to me today because of nostalgia, but it will be enjoyable and nostalgic nonetheless
Dude, steppes of war and desert oasis always produced the best games for viewers despite how much people hated it. Shit just happened immediately and small unit micro was so important because of it.
Sure it sucked being the player. But people were kept honest back on those days. People will also be reminded what an aggressive meta game actually is.
On September 19 2014 08:15 Thieving Magpie wrote: Dude, steppes of war and desert oasis always produced the best games for viewers
... I don't even know what to say.
I guess Taeja vs INno is featured in your personal dictionary at the entry "boredom", while a drone rush is the epitome of "exciting". A game that exceeds five minutes must be too much to handle for some minds.
On September 18 2014 23:02 Tzyx wrote: Whats the BIGGEST map thats been on ladder so far? I'd love to have that one. Something that's so ridiculously big.
Sky Harvester at (232x209) is the biggest ladder map, but for 4v4. Condemned Ridge (208x200) is the biggest 1v1 ladder map, even bigger than Alterzim Stronghold (192x192) and Zerus Prime (172x156). TDA (180x180) was pretty big as well. Deadwing clocks in at (172x172), and all of those maps make Whirlwind look downright small at (160x160).
On September 19 2014 08:15 Thieving Magpie wrote: Dude, steppes of war and desert oasis always produced the best games for viewers
... I don't even know what to say.
I guess Taeja vs INno is featured in your personal dictionary at the entry "boredom", while a drone rush is the epitome of "exciting". A game that exceeds five minutes must be too much to handle for some minds.
Actually, Jinro and TLO dropping nukes for 30-45 minutes on desert oasis and delta squadron has never been boring.
Players beginning engagements during the first 3-4 minutes of the game and having the action not stop for the next 10-15 minutes was also always entertaining on steps of war. It sucked to play since games suck when cyber core is your late game tech because the map is too small and the resources too scarce for anything else. The games were much scrappier, and much more immediate than today. Back then, macro play was being defensive for 6 minutes and then all out aggression as opposed to 10 minute pokes we have now.
It was a different meta. Awful to play, but fun to watch.
On September 19 2014 09:14 Thieving Magpie wrote: It was a different meta. Awful to play, but fun to watch.
Let's just agree to disagree, after all, your taste is your taste, maybe you'd rather watch a street fight instead of ballet. Fun to watch...
On September 19 2014 09:26 AxionSteel wrote: Wire is on a SERIOUS personal mission to drown out all the optimism. Not gonna happen.
A crusade against stupidity should be everyone's personal mission. I'm not trying to kill any optimism, I already said a lot of times a very decent map pool could be made out of this, especially if only 2012+ maps are taken into consideration and at least 2-3 current ladder maps are kept. But thinking 2010 maps will rejuvenate the game is as best naive, and if you ask me dumb to the confines of cretinism.
Exactly. Also you just need to relax. Steppes will probably get voted in for the lolz, veto it. There are plenty more decent maps. Shakuras is 2010 and it will stand up very well today, i even think Blistering Sands would go okay. Scrap Station i always thought was a fascinating, unique and interesting map, it just wouldn't work today with oracles, speedy vacs and regen mutas. I'm sure it will be okay!! I voted for maps like Whirlwind, Tal Darim Altar and some others that I felt would be fine. always loved playing and watching tvt's on those maps. I like Daybreak a lot too, but that map was around for soooooooo long maybe it's better it didn't come back
On September 19 2014 09:43 AxionSteel wrote: Exactly. Also you just need to relax. Steppes will probably get voted in for the lolz, veto it. There are plenty more decent maps. Shakuras is 2010 and it will stand up very well today, i even think Blistering Sands would go okay. Scrap Station i always thought was a fascinating, unique and interesting map, it just wouldn't work today with oracles, speedy vacs and regen mutas. I'm sure it will be okay!! I voted for maps like Whirlwind, Tal Darim Altar and some others that I felt would be fine. always loved playing and watching tvt's on those maps. I like Daybreak a lot too, but that map was around for soooooooo long maybe it's better it didn't come back
To put it into perspective. If 4 of the 7 maps are troll maps, you can veto 3 of them.
On September 19 2014 08:15 Thieving Magpie wrote: Dude, steppes of war and desert oasis always produced the best games for viewers
... I don't even know what to say.
I guess Taeja vs INno is featured in your personal dictionary at the entry "boredom", while a drone rush is the epitome of "exciting". A game that exceeds five minutes must be too much to handle for some minds.
Actually, Jinro and TLO dropping nukes for 30-45 minutes on desert oasis and delta squadron has never been boring.
Players beginning engagements during the first 3-4 minutes of the game and having the action not stop for the next 10-15 minutes was also always entertaining on steps of war. It sucked to play since games suck when cyber core is your late game tech because the map is too small and the resources too scarce for anything else. The games were much scrappier, and much more immediate than today. Back then, macro play was being defensive for 6 minutes and then all out aggression as opposed to 10 minute pokes we have now.
It was a different meta. Awful to play, but fun to watch.
Have you actually watched the game you are referencing in the past 4 years? (Me vs Socke on Desert Oasis is the one with the nukes)
Because I have. Yeah, it's a good memory for me, being the first time I beat Socke in a series (he always beat me when I was in Europe), but watching the game the level of play is fucking abysmal, and the map only barely even came into things. It's like 2-1 upgrades after 30 minutes... come on.
Desert Oasis could be a good map if you fixed it. Desert oasis with a natural that is so far away from your ramp as to practically be a 3rd base equivalent on a modern map, is not viable.
Blistering Sands with a backdoor into your main and a choke point to your nat that is halfway across the map, is probably not viable.
Scrap station with the main bases being a Tempest shot distance apart, is not viable.
Maps like Akilon Wastes or Xel'Naga with the gigantic wide open naturals, are not viable.
Lost Temple with the entire main being open to reapers and blink, is not viable.
I'm completely with Wire on this, it's not going to be nearly as fun as you all think. Maybe it will be fun for the first 20 games, which is fine for the people who don't actually ladder (lots of people in this thread saying 'this will make me ladder some again'), but for the people who actually actively ladder... playing 500 games on a horrible map pool is not a tempting prospect for a new season.
I'm completely with Wire on this, it's not going to be nearly as fun as you all think. Maybe it will be fun for the first 20 games, which is fine for the people who don't actually ladder (lots of people in this thread saying 'this will make me ladder some again'), but for the people who actually actively ladder... playing 500 games on a horrible map pool is not a tempting prospect for a new season.
I've started playing more actively the past month or so. Which means I play 1 and every now and then 2 games a day 2-4 days a week. You're right, people like me will not feel the pain of grinding 500+ games on these maps. People like me will veto most of the maps that we are cheering for on this thread. I want Xel Naga Caverns, and Scarp Station, and Lost Temple. But I'm probably going to veto steps of war, I'm probably going to veto Blistering Sands, and I'm probably going to have a love hate relationship with lost temple depending on how many zergs I tank drop on it. But I won't really feel the imbalance on these maps. I'm just not at a high enough level, nor do I play at a consistent enough basis to be affected by map balance when its hard enough for players like me to execute build orders optimally without losing concentration.
But I'm willing to bet that there's a lot of players like me, and lot less players that play 500+ games a season that will feel the actual map imbalance.
On September 19 2014 12:14 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Desert Oasis could be a good map if you fixed it. Desert oasis with a natural that is so far away from your ramp as to practically be a 3rd base equivalent on a modern map, is not viable.
Blistering Sands with a backdoor into your main and a choke point to your nat that is halfway across the map, is probably not viable.
Scrap station with the main bases being a Tempest shot distance apart, is not viable.
Maps like Akilon Wastes or Xel'Naga with the gigantic wide open naturals, are not viable.
Lost Temple with the entire main being open to reapers and blink, is not viable.
I'm completely with Wire on this, it's not going to be nearly as fun as you all think. Maybe it will be fun for the first 20 games, which is fine for the people who don't actually ladder (lots of people in this thread saying 'this will make me ladder some again'), but for the people who actually actively ladder... playing 500 games on a horrible map pool is not a tempting prospect for a new season.
You also forgot about the wide ramp to the natural in Scrap Station.
While your arguments on the non-viable maps are justified, I don't think it will be as awful as you and Wire think it will be. Now if all those maps made it into the #dreampool, sure things might turn into a painful nightmare. However, I think it will be interesting to see how some of them play out in HotS.
I agree the nostalgia will wear off, but by that time we will move onto the new season.
And those that think the trolls will prevail, lets just wait and see what gets voted. If the trolls do prevail and we get these non-viable maps, then just join in the trolling.
Take this for what it is, a bone to the fans for sticking around for so long with a "dying game".
On September 19 2014 08:15 Thieving Magpie wrote: Dude, steppes of war and desert oasis always produced the best games for viewers
... I don't even know what to say.
I guess Taeja vs INno is featured in your personal dictionary at the entry "boredom", while a drone rush is the epitome of "exciting". A game that exceeds five minutes must be too much to handle for some minds.
Actually, Jinro and TLO dropping nukes for 30-45 minutes on desert oasis and delta squadron has never been boring.
Players beginning engagements during the first 3-4 minutes of the game and having the action not stop for the next 10-15 minutes was also always entertaining on steps of war. It sucked to play since games suck when cyber core is your late game tech because the map is too small and the resources too scarce for anything else. The games were much scrappier, and much more immediate than today. Back then, macro play was being defensive for 6 minutes and then all out aggression as opposed to 10 minute pokes we have now.
It was a different meta. Awful to play, but fun to watch.
Maps like Akilon Wastes or Xel'Naga with the gigantic wide open naturals, are not viable.
huh? What was wrong with Akilon? Despite the flak it always got it had fairly balanced statistics, allowed for a variety of different plays, and many of the best games of 2013 were on it. It had a good lifespan as well.
On September 19 2014 06:20 Thieving Magpie wrote: Yeah, 99% is too low a number.
I knew there were a lot of dumb people on the planet, but I definitely underestimated the percentage. I guess the 1% selected few who've got a brain should already prepare for a wasted ladder season because Steppes of War will be "so much lolz duh".
Dude, why are you getting so damn upset?
Look at it like this...the map pool will give you a chance to hone your early/midgame - even if some things are bullshit. It's a throwback to the way things used to be. Sure the maps are radically different - but you can adapt your builds and playstyle for two months...
You're also overreacting. We don't even know what maps have been picked yet. Until we do, why go so crazy?
I'm appalled because everyone with half a brain cried tears of pain when seeing the ladder maps back in 2010-2011, and after years of complaining to get a somewhat balanced and well-designed map pool, we want to get back the maps that were horrible back then, and will still be horrible today ? "We'll see more agressive strats", "this will shake the meta", my ass, and people complain TvT is dull because it's 1 base play ? Open your eyes, the games on those maps will be dreadful and you'll be sick of them after a week. People could ask for Overgrowth, Nimbus and Frost, and most of the posts I read are looking forward to Scrap Station, Metalopolis or Blistering Sands. This is not a matter of taste, this is a matter of logical reasoning and telling what is terrible beyond human understanding and what is great, this is the difference between One Direction and fucking Mozart.
Maybe this #dreampool (dream of whom ? Of a retarded 13-year old troll ?) will end up being OKish, there has been some great maps in recent times. Even maps like Entombed Valley or Shakuras Plateau could and should be given a shot. But when I see people actually yearning for Steppes of War or Scrap Station like they weren't the most terrible maps ever, I'm sorry, it really sets my teeth on edge.
Oh, and please give a think about this poetic metaphor I already proposed earlier in this thread : if you spent your infancy eating shit, would it taste good to you today because of nostalgia ?
Dude.
It's for two months. TWO MONTHS. You're writing as though we are returning to the shit for brain map pools of the past forever - never to return to the maps we have now.
Obviously not.
And you are still assuming that maps like Steppes of War have been locked in and are a given. They're not. From what I'm reading it sounds like you're having a self-induced hernia over this shit. Who knows?
Maybe that means for two months you're going to have to all-in. Well after the end of those two months then you're either going to be really good at all-inning...or you'll take a break.
But once again, - that is based on the ASSUMPTION that these terrible old maps are going to be added to the pool at all. I reckon a few of them will be. But we'll have to wait in see.
If on the day of the vote the maps in the voting pool are ALL terrible maps - as in, more than 3 vetoes worth - then sure. You know what, I'll probably be complaining with you. And I'll probably just six pool or two rax. But until then, why not be excited by the prospect of all the GOOD maps which might be brought back into the pool? I for one salivate thinking of getting the chance of playing on Frost again.
On September 19 2014 08:15 Thieving Magpie wrote: Dude, steppes of war and desert oasis always produced the best games for viewers
... I don't even know what to say.
I guess Taeja vs INno is featured in your personal dictionary at the entry "boredom", while a drone rush is the epitome of "exciting". A game that exceeds five minutes must be too much to handle for some minds.
Actually, Jinro and TLO dropping nukes for 30-45 minutes on desert oasis and delta squadron has never been boring.
Players beginning engagements during the first 3-4 minutes of the game and having the action not stop for the next 10-15 minutes was also always entertaining on steps of war. It sucked to play since games suck when cyber core is your late game tech because the map is too small and the resources too scarce for anything else. The games were much scrappier, and much more immediate than today. Back then, macro play was being defensive for 6 minutes and then all out aggression as opposed to 10 minute pokes we have now.
It was a different meta. Awful to play, but fun to watch.
Maps like Akilon Wastes or Xel'Naga with the gigantic wide open naturals, are not viable.
huh? What was wrong with Akilon? Despite the flak it always got it had fairly balanced statistics, allowed for a variety of different plays, and many of the best games of 2013 were on it. It had a good lifespan as well.
Personally, I always found it rather underrated.
Sorry wrong map name, that one is good... Cant remember the correct name but itwas a 4 player map with horrible open natural and I think it had akilon in the naem.
Akilon wastes is actually a map I owuldn't mind back in place of overgrowth or something.
On September 19 2014 14:07 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On September 19 2014 12:14 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
On September 19 2014 09:14 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On September 19 2014 08:36 [PkF] Wire wrote:
On September 19 2014 08:15 Thieving Magpie wrote: Dude, steppes of war and desert oasis always produced the best games for viewers
... I don't even know what to say.
I guess Taeja vs INno is featured in your personal dictionary at the entry "boredom", while a drone rush is the epitome of "exciting". A game that exceeds five minutes must be too much to handle for some minds.
Actually, Jinro and TLO dropping nukes for 30-45 minutes on desert oasis and delta squadron has never been boring.
Players beginning engagements during the first 3-4 minutes of the game and having the action not stop for the next 10-15 minutes was also always entertaining on steps of war. It sucked to play since games suck when cyber core is your late game tech because the map is too small and the resources too scarce for anything else. The games were much scrappier, and much more immediate than today. Back then, macro play was being defensive for 6 minutes and then all out aggression as opposed to 10 minute pokes we have now.
It was a different meta. Awful to play, but fun to watch.
Maps like Akilon Wastes or Xel'Naga with the gigantic wide open naturals, are not viable.
huh? What was wrong with Akilon? Despite the flak it always got it had fairly balanced statistics, allowed for a variety of different plays, and many of the best games of 2013 were on it. It had a good lifespan as well.
Personally, I always found it rather underrated.
Sorry wrong map name, that one is good... Cant remember the correct name but itwas a 4 player map with horrible open natural and I think it had akilon in the naem.
Akilon wastes is actually a map I owuldn't mind back in place of overgrowth or something.
On September 19 2014 14:07 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On September 19 2014 12:14 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
On September 19 2014 09:14 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On September 19 2014 08:36 [PkF] Wire wrote:
On September 19 2014 08:15 Thieving Magpie wrote: Dude, steppes of war and desert oasis always produced the best games for viewers
... I don't even know what to say.
I guess Taeja vs INno is featured in your personal dictionary at the entry "boredom", while a drone rush is the epitome of "exciting". A game that exceeds five minutes must be too much to handle for some minds.
Actually, Jinro and TLO dropping nukes for 30-45 minutes on desert oasis and delta squadron has never been boring.
Players beginning engagements during the first 3-4 minutes of the game and having the action not stop for the next 10-15 minutes was also always entertaining on steps of war. It sucked to play since games suck when cyber core is your late game tech because the map is too small and the resources too scarce for anything else. The games were much scrappier, and much more immediate than today. Back then, macro play was being defensive for 6 minutes and then all out aggression as opposed to 10 minute pokes we have now.
It was a different meta. Awful to play, but fun to watch.
Maps like Akilon Wastes or Xel'Naga with the gigantic wide open naturals, are not viable.
huh? What was wrong with Akilon? Despite the flak it always got it had fairly balanced statistics, allowed for a variety of different plays, and many of the best games of 2013 were on it. It had a good lifespan as well.
Personally, I always found it rather underrated.
Sorry wrong map name, that one is good... Cant remember the correct name but itwas a 4 player map with horrible open natural and I think it had akilon in the naem.
Akilon wastes is actually a map I owuldn't mind back in place of overgrowth or something.
Sorry but they're are people who play thousands of games a season at the higher levels, you can't just ignore that so a bunch of lower level players can get a nostalgia fix. This is absolutely ridiculous no one at a decent level wants to have to play for a couple of months on maps which will be horrendously imbalanced.
Seems to me like this is catering to people that barely even use the ladder system, only playing a few games here and there. Most decent level players get their practice mostly from ladder, I cant believe they are seriously suggesting fucking that up for the sake of bringing back some shitty maps.
If people are that desperate to play on scrap station, join a custom game with it.
On September 19 2014 15:42 VegaMatt wrote: Sorry but they're are people who play thousands of games a season at the higher levels, you can't just ignore that so a bunch of lower level players can get a nostalgia fix. This is absolutely ridiculous no one at a decent level wants to have to play for a couple of months on maps which will be horrendously imbalanced.
Seems to me like this is catering to people that barely even use the ladder system, only playing a few games here and there. Most decent level players get their practice mostly from ladder, I cant believe they are seriously suggesting fucking that up for the sake of bringing back some shitty maps.
If people are that desperate to play on scrap station, join a custom game with it.
You and Jinro bring some sense to this thread, which is really good.
People who say I'm just an angry party pooper don't seem to understand my concern is that we actually get some dreadful maps because there are people (and many, if I read a lot of posts correctly) who believe 2010 maps will be fun to play on. They won't. With the exception of Shakuras Plateau (and maybe Tal'darim Altar with no rocks on 3rd) no map prior to the Cloud Kingdom-Daybreak-Korhal Compound map pool is decent and would make me feel anything but disgust and contempt. I'm OK with classic maps which actually deserve the name of map, not with the crap we had to bear the whole 2010-2011. I guess we'll end up with a decent map pool with some modern maps in it which will allow serious players to train normally, but if no one express their concerns about what could be a wasted ladder season, the road is free for Blistering Sands and Scrap Station. In fact I quite agree with you Qwyn, I'm just trying to warn people about what you think is not likely to happen (you must be of optimistic nature) and what I think is bound to happen if too many stupid maps are on the prelist (people can be really dumb if given the opportunity to).
On September 19 2014 15:42 VegaMatt wrote: Sorry but they're are people who play thousands of games a season at the higher levels, you can't just ignore that so a bunch of lower level players can get a nostalgia fix. This is absolutely ridiculous no one at a decent level wants to have to play for a couple of months on maps which will be horrendously imbalanced.
Seems to me like this is catering to people that barely even use the ladder system, only playing a few games here and there. Most decent level players get their practice mostly from ladder, I cant believe they are seriously suggesting fucking that up for the sake of bringing back some shitty maps.
If people are that desperate to play on scrap station, join a custom game with it.
You do realize that low level players outnumber GM and masters on ladder by 100 to 1. Their wants and desires are very relevant to the scene at whole.
Edit: took a a look at the reddit ladder numbers, maybe it's closer to 30 or 40 to 1, my point still stands though
@Wire, people are just annoyed because you are very aggresive with your words. Maybe that's not what you mean since english is not your main tongue, but i'm French too and find your posts very offensive with expressions like : "this is a matter of logical reasoning and telling what is terrible beyond human understanding and what is great,"
which translate to me as : "I'm right and you're fucking wrong and you don't know how to use your brain" "A game that exceeds five minutes must be too much to handle for some minds." => "You are so dumb you can't watch a game more than 5minutes i'm superior to you, i have a mind superior to yours"
I don't think i'm the only one to think that you are overly aggressive. Just may be use a lighter tone
Read your post again. And see why people think you are an "angry party pooper". But again. Might be that you use "strong words" while you don't mean too
looking at the posts, i think daybreak and cloud kingdom are almost guaranteed to be in the map pool and ohana, akilon, frost have a very good shot too. so we probably won't have a map pool with only maps from 2010-2011 and the few maps from that period that might make it (steppes of war, metalopolis, scrap station) can be voted if you don't want to play on them, so i don't really see a problem with the dreampool
i wouldn't want to see all of the map pool be 2010 maps. a nice spread would be perfect. Being able to play on steppes of war now would be interesting for a bit, but not if the whole pool was like that.
On September 19 2014 22:24 Tzyx wrote: i wouldn't want to see all of the map pool be 2010 maps. a nice spread would be perfect. Being able to play on steppes of war now would be interesting for a bit, but not if the whole pool was like that.
Nostalgia =\= only 2010
Perfect would be about 2ish maps per year wife 2010 so we get to actually compare and contrast what map making has done on a more immediate level. Even have the year pop up on the loading screen "Xel Naga Caverns (2010)"
So people who were bad before but better now can really see how far the game has gone. But it would also give a lot of players what they're asking for. Some players whine that Protoss expansions are too safe, it's too easy to get a natural and a 3rd. Some people complain that Terran aggression is too neutered. Some people complain that all maps seem too similar with natural into 3rd being too linear. Let them play the maps that predicated those modern changes. Let them see a meta game where photon overcharge is not enough to protect nexus first builds. Let them play maps with cliffs for siege tanks to rain down from. Remind them why the modern map pool is boring. And do it by giving them exactly what they want.
On September 19 2014 13:37 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: I agree the nostalgia will wear off
I would play on Nostalgia. Maybe with fixed mains since we have upward facing ramps now in 2014. There haven't been enough maps with mineral only bases in SC2.
On September 19 2014 21:46 FFW_Rude wrote: "you're fucking wrong and you don't know how to use your brain"
This is indeed what I meant, and I lack the imagination to phrase it in a nice and comprehensive way.
I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but if you think even a few WoL beta maps would be OK because they will play out "agressive" and "fun" you're a moron and you need to be told the truth.
We'll see what comes out from it, and it'll probably end up OK thanks to the vetos, but people who have even the slightest hope a game on those terrible maps could be half-decent need to be aware of how wrong they are. What I find shocking is when given the opportunity to have an amazing map pool (a lot of recent maps were awesome and balanced) there are persons to yearn for the stupidest and worst maps we ever had, which really baffles me : it's like being offered to be prepared any possible meal and to ask for a shit sandwich. I don't find it useless to tell those persons they're complete morons.
On September 19 2014 22:24 Tzyx wrote: i wouldn't want to see all of the map pool be 2010 maps. a nice spread would be perfect. Being able to play on steppes of war now would be interesting for a bit, but not if the whole pool was like that.
Nostalgia =\= only 2010
Perfect would be about 2ish maps per year wife 2010 so we get to actually compare and contrast what map making has done on a more immediate level. Even have the year pop up on the loading screen "Xel Naga Caverns (2010)"
So people who were bad before but better now can really see how far the game has gone. But it would also give a lot of players what they're asking for. Some players whine that Protoss expansions are too safe, it's too easy to get a natural and a 3rd. Some people complain that Terran aggression is too neutered. Some people complain that all maps seem too similar with natural into 3rd being too linear. Let them play the maps that predicated those modern changes. Let them see a meta game where photon overcharge is not enough to protect nexus first builds. Let them play maps with cliffs for siege tanks to rain down from. Remind them why the modern map pool is boring. And do it by giving them exactly what they want.
If they did this for a week I wouldnt even complain (they could do something like 2 days per year and have a ton of diff maps), but an entire season ?
I've been playing this game since WoL Beta and yes the maps from the early seasons are not very good compared to the way they are designed now. I do believe it is part nostalgia for some players but I would still be curious what kind of games are produced on some of these maps that get voted in. I think it might serve all players better though if the winning list was put on a ptr and we can get a better idea of what games might look like. If it is unplayable maybe try another list of old maps in testing to see how it goes.
If this hasn't been mentioned yet and I would be surprised if it hasn't, the reason why Blizzard is doing this. The new season starts just after Blizzcon and most people (including myself) believe we will get an announcement on LotV. I would imagine most people will be so distracted by the new information that we will not care so much about what is happening on ladder. Also, what are the chances that we will get a Beta for LotV some time during this season? Didn't HotS beta happen shortly after Blizzcon as well?
If this hasn't been mentioned yet and I would be surprised if it hasn't, the reason why Blizzard is doing this. The new season starts just after Blizzcon and most people (including myself) believe we will get an announcement on LotV. I would imagine most people will be so distracted by the new information that we will not care so much about what is happening on ladder. Also, what are the chances that we will get a Beta for LotV some time during this season? Didn't HotS beta happen shortly after Blizzcon as well?
It's just barely, barely possible they will announce an open beta for LotV for season 4 and they'll have new maps there
Hmmm... it would also make extra sense since WCS is kind of "resetting" for next season. If it's a new game then why not reset the standings. Not holding my breath though.
There's no way there is beta for LOTV at all this year. The SC2 development team has been building Heroes of the Storm, not LotV. They MIGHT have the LOTV cinematic ready to debut and if we are lucky they might have some early campaign demo concepts and multiplayer change/unit ideas to tease us with.
On September 20 2014 04:14 imJealous wrote: There's no way there is beta for LOTV at all this year. The SC2 development team has been building Heroes of the Storm, not LotV. They MIGHT have the LOTV cinematic ready to debut and if we are lucky they might have some early campaign demo concepts and multiplayer change/unit ideas to tease us with.
On September 20 2014 04:14 imJealous wrote: There's no way there is beta for LOTV at all this year. The SC2 development team has been building Heroes of the Storm, not LotV. They MIGHT have the LOTV cinematic ready to debut and if we are lucky they might have some early campaign demo concepts and multiplayer change/unit ideas to tease us with.
no shit
what does this have to do with nostalgia maps?
Read the 5 posts preceding mine maybe?
you're supposed to use quotes on this forum instead of replying to random posts out of the blue ^^
i hope they bring back metal, xnc, and tal darim and that they don't cancel this because of all the crybabies itt
The ultimate troll will be 7 tile sets of kulas ravine.
I think bringing back a handful of maps as well as introducing a bunch of brand new maps would be sweet. Especially if it's an off season why not do 2 or 3 2010 maps and another ~5 brand new maps. It'll still have the nostalgia feel but will also have 5 or so brand new maps.
On September 19 2014 22:24 Tzyx wrote: i wouldn't want to see all of the map pool be 2010 maps. a nice spread would be perfect. Being able to play on steppes of war now would be interesting for a bit, but not if the whole pool was like that.
Nostalgia =\= only 2010
Perfect would be about 2ish maps per year wife 2010 so we get to actually compare and contrast what map making has done on a more immediate level. Even have the year pop up on the loading screen "Xel Naga Caverns (2010)"
So people who were bad before but better now can really see how far the game has gone. But it would also give a lot of players what they're asking for. Some players whine that Protoss expansions are too safe, it's too easy to get a natural and a 3rd. Some people complain that Terran aggression is too neutered. Some people complain that all maps seem too similar with natural into 3rd being too linear. Let them play the maps that predicated those modern changes. Let them see a meta game where photon overcharge is not enough to protect nexus first builds. Let them play maps with cliffs for siege tanks to rain down from. Remind them why the modern map pool is boring. And do it by giving them exactly what they want.
If they did this for a week I wouldnt even complain (they could do something like 2 days per year and have a ton of diff maps), but an entire season ?
Hell, 2 weeks even. Just not a season.
Come to think of it, this would be awesome if they had small breaks like that between one season and the other for stuff like this.
On September 19 2014 22:24 Tzyx wrote: i wouldn't want to see all of the map pool be 2010 maps. a nice spread would be perfect. Being able to play on steppes of war now would be interesting for a bit, but not if the whole pool was like that.
Nostalgia =\= only 2010
Perfect would be about 2ish maps per year wife 2010 so we get to actually compare and contrast what map making has done on a more immediate level. Even have the year pop up on the loading screen "Xel Naga Caverns (2010)"
So people who were bad before but better now can really see how far the game has gone. But it would also give a lot of players what they're asking for. Some players whine that Protoss expansions are too safe, it's too easy to get a natural and a 3rd. Some people complain that Terran aggression is too neutered. Some people complain that all maps seem too similar with natural into 3rd being too linear. Let them play the maps that predicated those modern changes. Let them see a meta game where photon overcharge is not enough to protect nexus first builds. Let them play maps with cliffs for siege tanks to rain down from. Remind them why the modern map pool is boring. And do it by giving them exactly what they want.
If they did this for a week I wouldnt even complain (they could do something like 2 days per year and have a ton of diff maps), but an entire season ?
On September 19 2014 22:24 Tzyx wrote: i wouldn't want to see all of the map pool be 2010 maps. a nice spread would be perfect. Being able to play on steppes of war now would be interesting for a bit, but not if the whole pool was like that.
Nostalgia =\= only 2010
Perfect would be about 2ish maps per year wife 2010 so we get to actually compare and contrast what map making has done on a more immediate level. Even have the year pop up on the loading screen "Xel Naga Caverns (2010)"
So people who were bad before but better now can really see how far the game has gone. But it would also give a lot of players what they're asking for. Some players whine that Protoss expansions are too safe, it's too easy to get a natural and a 3rd. Some people complain that Terran aggression is too neutered. Some people complain that all maps seem too similar with natural into 3rd being too linear. Let them play the maps that predicated those modern changes. Let them see a meta game where photon overcharge is not enough to protect nexus first builds. Let them play maps with cliffs for siege tanks to rain down from. Remind them why the modern map pool is boring. And do it by giving them exactly what they want.
If they did this for a week I wouldnt even complain (they could do something like 2 days per year and have a ton of diff maps), but an entire season ?
Hell, 2 weeks even. Just not a season.
Come to think of it, this would be awesome if they had small breaks like that between one season and the other for stuff like this.
Very much agreed. These events nearly always sound really awesome in theory. But in reality, it motivates people to play 1-2 games before realising this was actually a terrible idea and they're bored within a week.
Psione: "The whole process with the Season 4 map pool voting is definitely different from what we've done before. As a result, it's something we'd like to see play out before considering our future plans. When Season 4 is over, we'll take time to see how everything went and go from there. Maybe its something we try each year, or maybe its something that we leave as a one-time fun event. In either case, the feedback we get during this whole process will be a really important part of those conversations. Presenting suggestions like this gives us something to consider and discuss when we do look towards the future."
Psione: The map versions up for vote will be as they are now. We won't be reworking any maps or looking to make signifcant changes. Please keep this in mind when making your vote.
However, it's still possible that minor changes could be made, such as locking spawn locations. While nothing has been determined on that end, it's something we can consider when looking at the final map pool.
So it looks like it will span the entire season and they wont be making any changes to the maps except spawn locations etc. Personally I lean towards the side of seeing how it plays out before making a judgement. Having one or two joke maps you can easily veto wouldn't affect laddering for serious players too much and it seems that there is a lot of traction in the community for larger maps like Taldarim Altar, Daybreak, Cloud Kingdom, Antiga Shipyard or Akilon Wastes and medium maps like Ohana, Neo Planet S and Shakuras Plataeu .
Based on the feedback from bnet forum feeds, twitter and TL it seems to me the most likely outcome for a map pool would be:
Taldarim Altar Daybreak Cloud Kingdom Ohana/Akilon Wastes Shakuras Plataeu/Neo Planet S Steppes of War Incineration Zone/Antiga Shipyard
This prediction is based on what is coming up on bnet, TL and twitter most often. If we get something like this it shouldn't be too much of a problem for a single off season.
Also, keep in mind that in a recent poll Blizzard asked the community "when is it okay to cheese?" and overwhelmingly they responded with a 70% vote for "All the time". So between the community enthusiasm for small maps like Steppes of War and the majority of people agreeing that cheese/rushing is perfectly fine I don't see a reason for blizzard to not include one or two smaller maps from now on. Its just something that players clearly want.
On September 20 2014 07:31 mGGNoRe wrote: Taldarim Altar Daybreak Cloud Kingdom Ohana/Akilon Flats Shakuras Plataeu/Neo Planet S Steppes of War Incineration Zone
This would not be a great map pool at all, but with vetos I guess for one season it would remain playable... I didn't see so many Incineration Zones (I think qxc said it... which saddens me for his sanity) but I definitely saw many Steppes of War. Still, the fact maps like that could get on a "classics" map pool while Frost or Whirlwind could be left behind makes me want to kill a kitten by tearing off his limbs one by one.
On September 19 2014 22:24 Tzyx wrote: i wouldn't want to see all of the map pool be 2010 maps. a nice spread would be perfect. Being able to play on steppes of war now would be interesting for a bit, but not if the whole pool was like that.
Nostalgia =\= only 2010
Perfect would be about 2ish maps per year wife 2010 so we get to actually compare and contrast what map making has done on a more immediate level. Even have the year pop up on the loading screen "Xel Naga Caverns (2010)"
So people who were bad before but better now can really see how far the game has gone. But it would also give a lot of players what they're asking for. Some players whine that Protoss expansions are too safe, it's too easy to get a natural and a 3rd. Some people complain that Terran aggression is too neutered. Some people complain that all maps seem too similar with natural into 3rd being too linear. Let them play the maps that predicated those modern changes. Let them see a meta game where photon overcharge is not enough to protect nexus first builds. Let them play maps with cliffs for siege tanks to rain down from. Remind them why the modern map pool is boring. And do it by giving them exactly what they want.
If they did this for a week I wouldnt even complain (they could do something like 2 days per year and have a ton of diff maps), but an entire season ?
On September 19 2014 22:24 Tzyx wrote: i wouldn't want to see all of the map pool be 2010 maps. a nice spread would be perfect. Being able to play on steppes of war now would be interesting for a bit, but not if the whole pool was like that.
Nostalgia =\= only 2010
Perfect would be about 2ish maps per year wife 2010 so we get to actually compare and contrast what map making has done on a more immediate level. Even have the year pop up on the loading screen "Xel Naga Caverns (2010)"
So people who were bad before but better now can really see how far the game has gone. But it would also give a lot of players what they're asking for. Some players whine that Protoss expansions are too safe, it's too easy to get a natural and a 3rd. Some people complain that Terran aggression is too neutered. Some people complain that all maps seem too similar with natural into 3rd being too linear. Let them play the maps that predicated those modern changes. Let them see a meta game where photon overcharge is not enough to protect nexus first builds. Let them play maps with cliffs for siege tanks to rain down from. Remind them why the modern map pool is boring. And do it by giving them exactly what they want.
If they did this for a week I wouldnt even complain (they could do something like 2 days per year and have a ton of diff maps), but an entire season ?
Hell, 2 weeks even. Just not a season.
Come to think of it, this would be awesome if they had small breaks like that between one season and the other for stuff like this.
Very much agreed. These events nearly always sound really awesome in theory. But in reality, it motivates people to play 1-2 games before realising this was actually a terrible idea and they're bored within a week.
So much truth... Wanna bet the ones who vote for troll maps will be the ones who'll complain on forums the ladder is unplayable after a week ?
On September 20 2014 07:31 mGGNoRe wrote: Taldarim Altar Daybreak Cloud Kingdom Ohana/Akilon Flats Shakuras Plataeu/Neo Planet S Steppes of War Incineration Zone
This would not be a great map pool at all, but with vetos I guess for one season it would remain playable... I didn't see so many Incineration Zones (I think qxc said it... which saddens me for his sanity) but I definitely saw many Steppes of War. Still, the fact maps like that could get on a "classics" map pool while Frost or Whirlwind could be left behind makes me want to kill a kitten by tearing off his limbs one by one.
On September 19 2014 22:24 Tzyx wrote: i wouldn't want to see all of the map pool be 2010 maps. a nice spread would be perfect. Being able to play on steppes of war now would be interesting for a bit, but not if the whole pool was like that.
Nostalgia =\= only 2010
Perfect would be about 2ish maps per year wife 2010 so we get to actually compare and contrast what map making has done on a more immediate level. Even have the year pop up on the loading screen "Xel Naga Caverns (2010)"
So people who were bad before but better now can really see how far the game has gone. But it would also give a lot of players what they're asking for. Some players whine that Protoss expansions are too safe, it's too easy to get a natural and a 3rd. Some people complain that Terran aggression is too neutered. Some people complain that all maps seem too similar with natural into 3rd being too linear. Let them play the maps that predicated those modern changes. Let them see a meta game where photon overcharge is not enough to protect nexus first builds. Let them play maps with cliffs for siege tanks to rain down from. Remind them why the modern map pool is boring. And do it by giving them exactly what they want.
If they did this for a week I wouldnt even complain (they could do something like 2 days per year and have a ton of diff maps), but an entire season ?
Hell, 2 weeks even. Just not a season.
On September 20 2014 06:55 Teoita wrote:
On September 20 2014 01:40 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
On September 19 2014 22:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On September 19 2014 22:24 Tzyx wrote: i wouldn't want to see all of the map pool be 2010 maps. a nice spread would be perfect. Being able to play on steppes of war now would be interesting for a bit, but not if the whole pool was like that.
Nostalgia =\= only 2010
Perfect would be about 2ish maps per year wife 2010 so we get to actually compare and contrast what map making has done on a more immediate level. Even have the year pop up on the loading screen "Xel Naga Caverns (2010)"
So people who were bad before but better now can really see how far the game has gone. But it would also give a lot of players what they're asking for. Some players whine that Protoss expansions are too safe, it's too easy to get a natural and a 3rd. Some people complain that Terran aggression is too neutered. Some people complain that all maps seem too similar with natural into 3rd being too linear. Let them play the maps that predicated those modern changes. Let them see a meta game where photon overcharge is not enough to protect nexus first builds. Let them play maps with cliffs for siege tanks to rain down from. Remind them why the modern map pool is boring. And do it by giving them exactly what they want.
If they did this for a week I wouldnt even complain (they could do something like 2 days per year and have a ton of diff maps), but an entire season ?
Hell, 2 weeks even. Just not a season.
Come to think of it, this would be awesome if they had small breaks like that between one season and the other for stuff like this.
Very much agreed. These events nearly always sound really awesome in theory. But in reality, it motivates people to play 1-2 games before realising this was actually a terrible idea and they're bored within a week.
So much truth... Wanna bet the ones who vote for troll maps will be the ones who'll complain on forums the ladder is unplayable after a week ?
There are clear front runners to the map pool. Maps like Steppes of War, Taldarim Altar, Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak are definately in for sure. After that it becomes quite varied with front runners being Neo Planet S, Antiga Shipyard, Akilon Wastes etc. My overall point is that the majority of maps will be quite decently large to play macro games. Given that we all have three vetos and that the only smallish map that is really popular is steppes of war I really dont see how the maps are going to be much of an issue.
On September 20 2014 07:56 Entropy137 wrote: I don't see how Antiga would be anything other than gimicky or bad with the current balance of the game.
Don't worry, playing on the old maps, especially the ones which aren't suited at all to modern gameplay, will shake the meta and bring up new strategies so that mapmakers stop making boring similar maps like Frost or Nimbus and get some inspiration from actual masterpieces that stood the test of time, the first example coming across my mind obviously being Steppes of War.
On September 20 2014 07:56 Entropy137 wrote: I don't see how Antiga would be anything other than gimicky or bad with the current balance of the game.
Don't worry, playing on the old maps, especially the ones which aren't suited at all to modern gameplay, will shake the meta and bring up new strategies so that mapmakers stop making boring similar maps like Frost or Nimbus and get some inspiration from actual masterpieces that stood the test of time, the first example coming across my mind obviously being Steppes of War.
Or at least I've been told so.
Those maps got replaced and evolved to become bigger with more bases because it was impossible for zerg to do anything on them. Taking a third base for Z in a lot of those maps and defending it it just not possible with the current units. Zel'Naga with gold third for terran and mines in the choke point center, or attacking the third while boosting medicavs into the main.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the game resort to old cheese tactics on most of the old maps. Blizzard cannot honestly add the old steppes of war unmodifyed into the map pool, zerg cannot win on that map. They used to be able to do some aggresive baneling bust stuff, but mines and msc pretty much make any kind of aggressive play useless on 1/2 base without T2. It will be a TvP season, but everyone will want to watch games with Z because they have to do the craziest stuff to even attempt to win(I expect Catz to be the best zerg player in the world for the next map pool).
I think this shows has lazy blizzard actually is. People wanted maps that would change the meta/create games where strategy and planning is far more important than macro. Where you could win doing some weird thing because the opponent doesn't expect it(using the map, not DT). So instead of sitting down and theory crafting new maps that could be fun and testing them for the next season they said "Lets just pull out old dead maps and not consider the balance consequences"
Its a fun/nostalgic move, but terrible for competition, growth and balance of SC2. At least that's what it looks like at the moment. We will have to see what kind of stuff people actually do when the maps get replaced.
On September 20 2014 07:56 Entropy137 wrote: I don't see how Antiga would be anything other than gimicky or bad with the current balance of the game.
I agree, Antiga would be gimicky with Protoss proxy tempests, but I don't agree it would be imbalanced in the current meta.
The stargates really only have a few places to hide, and those places are a bit obvious. Pros would scout it for sure.
Antiga was kinda gimicky already, because securing a 4th is pretty tough on this map. Most pros went for 2-3 base timings because securing a 4th was sometimes a liability.
On September 20 2014 07:56 Entropy137 wrote: I don't see how Antiga would be anything other than gimicky or bad with the current balance of the game.
Don't worry, playing on the old maps, especially the ones which aren't suited at all to modern gameplay, will shake the meta and bring up new strategies so that mapmakers stop making boring similar maps like Frost or Nimbus and get some inspiration from actual masterpieces that stood the test of time, the first example coming across my mind obviously being Steppes of War.
Or at least I've been told so.
You forgot to mention how Incineration is such a macro-oriented map.
All sarcasm aside, let me ask you a question Wire. If the only troll map to get voted in was Steppes, and the rest were good/decent maps, would you still be this upset?
I know you fear the entire #dreampool ladder will be troll maps, but we don't know yet which maps will even be in the poll. Blizzard gave themselves wiggle room about which maps will be on the poll, and I think they will use it to prevent too many horrible maps.
For myself, it would be fun to play on some of them, but if Blizzard does let Scrap Station, Steppes, Kulas, etc. into the #dreampool, I will be upset alongside you.
On September 20 2014 07:56 Entropy137 wrote: I don't see how Antiga would be anything other than gimicky or bad with the current balance of the game.
Don't worry, playing on the old maps, especially the ones which aren't suited at all to modern gameplay, will shake the meta and bring up new strategies so that mapmakers stop making boring similar maps like Frost or Nimbus and get some inspiration from actual masterpieces that stood the test of time, the first example coming across my mind obviously being Steppes of War.
Or at least I've been told so.
Those maps got replaced and evolved to become bigger with more bases because it was impossible for zerg to do anything on them. Taking a third base for Z in a lot of those maps and defending it it just not possible with the current units. Zel'Naga with gold third for terran and mines in the choke point center, or attacking the third while boosting medicavs into the main.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the game resort to old cheese tactics on most of the old maps. Blizzard cannot honestly add the old steppes of war unmodifyed into the map pool, zerg cannot win on that map. They used to be able to do some aggresive baneling bust stuff, but mines and msc pretty much make any kind of aggressive play useless on 1/2 base without T2. It will be a TvP season, but everyone will want to watch games with Z because they have to do the craziest stuff to even attempt to win(I expect Catz to be the best zerg player in the world for the next map pool).
I think this shows has lazy blizzard actually is. People wanted maps that would change the meta/create games where strategy and planning is far more important than macro. Where you could win doing some weird thing because the opponent doesn't expect it(using the map, not DT). So instead of sitting down and theory crafting new maps that could be fun and testing them for the next season they said "Lets just pull out old dead maps and not consider the balance consequences"
Its a fun/nostalgic move, but terrible for competition, growth and balance of SC2. At least that's what it looks like at the moment. We will have to see what kind of stuff people actually do when the maps get replaced.
Lol you haven't read the entire thread have you?
Wire already understands everything you stated.
His comment is dripping with sarcasm. Him and Jinro absolutely abhor the idea of bringing the 2010 maps into the #dreampool.
edit: I want to focus on the bolded part of your comment.
I agree this is a lazy move from Blizzard, but I don't think you can state what the "people" want with maps, because this was something heavily requested on Battle.net. A lot of people on that forum wanted something like this, and has been requested for two years now.
Now some people do want maps that would affect the meta, and I am sure Blizzard will do it, but for now they are taking the lazy route. Blizzard doesn't have to try and make new maps, or create/sponsor map-making tournaments. As well, perhaps they thought of their budget when implementing this idea.
There is no playable map of this anywhere on Battle Net. I would love to see an official blizzard version of this, and honestly, its just as good of not better than the 3p maps out today.
On September 20 2014 07:56 Entropy137 wrote: I don't see how Antiga would be anything other than gimicky or bad with the current balance of the game.
Don't worry, playing on the old maps, especially the ones which aren't suited at all to modern gameplay, will shake the meta and bring up new strategies so that mapmakers stop making boring similar maps like Frost or Nimbus and get some inspiration from actual masterpieces that stood the test of time, the first example coming across my mind obviously being Steppes of War.
Or at least I've been told so.
Well, I don't see how Antiga is a problem... It has 3features that could be a potential problem: - rush distance: which is short, but completly line with modern maps. - blink allin friendly: which is true for some modern maps as well - third is a little further away: which is still a much easier third for Protoss than e.g. on MGR
On September 20 2014 07:56 Entropy137 wrote: I don't see how Antiga would be anything other than gimicky or bad with the current balance of the game.
Don't worry, playing on the old maps, especially the ones which aren't suited at all to modern gameplay, will shake the meta and bring up new strategies so that mapmakers stop making boring similar maps like Frost or Nimbus and get some inspiration from actual masterpieces that stood the test of time, the first example coming across my mind obviously being Steppes of War.
Or at least I've been told so.
Well, I don't see how Antiga is a problem... It has 3features that could be a potential problem: - rush distance: which is short, but completly line with modern maps. - blink allin friendly: which is true for some modern maps as well - third is a little further away: which is still a much easier third for Protoss than e.g. on MGR
blink is still a big issue, and games will be forced to be cross spawn. I think we can probably find an issue with all old maps in the current metagame. (hence, thats why they are old maps)
On September 20 2014 07:56 Entropy137 wrote: I don't see how Antiga would be anything other than gimicky or bad with the current balance of the game.
Don't worry, playing on the old maps, especially the ones which aren't suited at all to modern gameplay, will shake the meta and bring up new strategies so that mapmakers stop making boring similar maps like Frost or Nimbus and get some inspiration from actual masterpieces that stood the test of time, the first example coming across my mind obviously being Steppes of War.
Or at least I've been told so.
Well, I don't see how Antiga is a problem... It has 3features that could be a potential problem: - rush distance: which is short, but completly line with modern maps. - blink allin friendly: which is true for some modern maps as well - third is a little further away: which is still a much easier third for Protoss than e.g. on MGR
blink is still a big issue, and games will be forced to be cross spawn. I think we can probably find an issue with all old maps in the current metagame. (hence, thats why they are old maps)
Blink is a big issue in general if standard baselayouts like Antiga, KSS, Yeonsu, Star Station... make it very hard to hold. But since people can hold it on KSS, it's not worse for Antiga.
And no, old maps are not old maps because they cannot be played with the current metagame. Maps just get swapped out of mappools when they are old so that new maps can come in. That's all. There doesn't need to be any flaw with the map so that it gets rightfully replaced after some time. When Antiga got retired it had nearly 50% in all matchups. (slightly worse for T against Z ofc)
I'm doing very hard imagining Antiga being a bigger balance issue than Deadwing (which is 40% in all matchups currently).
On September 21 2014 17:45 Teoita wrote: Also yeah, blink allin is probably the biggest reason why Antiga would be horribly horribly broken, exactly like Yeonsu was.
Yeonsu was 55-45 in PvT, before Terran got a bunch of buffs and the MsC a bunch of blink specific nerfs. Compare that to 60-40 Deadwing, 43-57 Foxtrot or 35-65 Nimbus.
The central corridor means the Zerg could defend four bases for free while also sieging the opponent's 4th.
That was before Warp Prism play came up, or VR/recall strategies etc. And when Protoss where still in WoL expansion mode. You can just take the other 4th base on Daybreak as Protoss in HotS.
Also the exact same setup is possible on King Sejong Station when both players take the forward 4th bases, and it hasn't broken the map, since KSS game in after Protoss understood how to beat the SH turtle.
On September 21 2014 17:45 Teoita wrote: Also yeah, blink allin is probably the biggest reason why Antiga would be horribly horribly broken, exactly like Yeonsu was.
Yeonsu was 55-45 in PvT, before Terran got a bunch of buffs and the MsC a bunch of blink specific nerfs. Compare that to 60-40 Deadwing, 43-57 Foxtrot or 35-65 Nimbus.
The central corridor means the Zerg could defend four bases for free while also sieging the opponent's 4th.
That was before Warp Prism play came up, or VR/recall strategies etc. And when Protoss where still in WoL expansion mode. You can just take the other 4th base on Daybreak as Protoss in HotS.
Also the exact same setup is possible on King Sejong Station when both players take the forward 4th bases, and it hasn't broken the map, since KSS game in after Protoss understood how to beat the SH turtle.
Daybreak and KSS isn't exactly the same setup.
KSS has a potential 4th close to the opponent's 4th, but there are 2 other locations to expand from. The other 2 locations can be taken without serious threat from the SH.
Daybreak only has one other 4th to choose from because SH can hit the opponent's other 2 potential 4th base.
I see what people mean about Daybreak being broken because of SH. I think it might be true.
On September 21 2014 17:45 Teoita wrote: Also yeah, blink allin is probably the biggest reason why Antiga would be horribly horribly broken, exactly like Yeonsu was.
Yeonsu was 55-45 in PvT, before Terran got a bunch of buffs and the MsC a bunch of blink specific nerfs. Compare that to 60-40 Deadwing, 43-57 Foxtrot or 35-65 Nimbus.
The central corridor means the Zerg could defend four bases for free while also sieging the opponent's 4th.
That was before Warp Prism play came up, or VR/recall strategies etc. And when Protoss where still in WoL expansion mode. You can just take the other 4th base on Daybreak as Protoss in HotS.
Also the exact same setup is possible on King Sejong Station when both players take the forward 4th bases, and it hasn't broken the map, since KSS game in after Protoss understood how to beat the SH turtle.
Daybreak and KSS isn't exactly the same setup.
KSS has a potential 4th close to the opponent's 4th, but there are 2 other locations to expand from. The other 2 locations can be taken without serious threat from the SH.
Daybreak only has one other 4th to choose from because SH can hit the opponent's other 2 potential 4th base.
I see what people mean about Daybreak being broken because of SH. I think it might be true.
You only need one 4th base that the opponent cannot hit with SHs from his 4th. You just always expand there and that's it, there is not need to have various 4th bases to choose from. Many maps do not have various 4th bases to choose from to begin with. And when you eventually have to take that base as a 5th, it's not different from many, many, many other maps, that you eventually have to take a 5th base that can be attacked by SHs rather easily.
Even more, maps like Polar Night, Heavy Rain, Nimbus, KSS have already shown that rallying from your 4th to the opponents 3rd ord 4th base with SHs isn't broken to begin with. When Daybreak was on the ladder, the metagame just wasn't there yet. Though tbh, the metagame at that time was that Protoss would just win with mass VRs in the lategame and not being able to do so on Daybreak because of SH/static turtle was the reason why Ps thought it was an imbalanced map against Hosts. Hence, they played the game very wrong against SHs.
One last point before I leave that discussion: there is nothing wrong with a specific map favoring a specific race in the matchup's late/end-game. Basically every big map currently favors P turtle. Heavy Rain was pretty good for Z in the lategame. But that doesn't mean Frost/Alterzim/Deadwing are really broken. It just meant that Zerg has to keep in mind not to let P get out of hand too easily.
On September 20 2014 07:56 Entropy137 wrote: I don't see how Antiga would be anything other than gimicky or bad with the current balance of the game.
Don't worry, playing on the old maps, especially the ones which aren't suited at all to modern gameplay, will shake the meta and bring up new strategies so that mapmakers stop making boring similar maps like Frost or Nimbus and get some inspiration from actual masterpieces that stood the test of time, the first example coming across my mind obviously being Steppes of War.
Or at least I've been told so.
All sarcasm aside, let me ask you a question Wire. If the only troll map to get voted in was Steppes, and the rest were good/decent maps, would you still be this upset?
As a player, I would be quite happy with that (just one veto wasted), but Steppes of War in a map pool which has a chance to be made exclusively of awesome maps would still be an insult to years of evolution of mapmaking. So yeah, I would still be upset. I can live with that, of course, but I'd be very disappointed with the community I thought to be less trollish and stupid than some other gaming ones.
On September 20 2014 07:56 Entropy137 wrote: I don't see how Antiga would be anything other than gimicky or bad with the current balance of the game.
Don't worry, playing on the old maps, especially the ones which aren't suited at all to modern gameplay, will shake the meta and bring up new strategies so that mapmakers stop making boring similar maps like Frost or Nimbus and get some inspiration from actual masterpieces that stood the test of time, the first example coming across my mind obviously being Steppes of War.
Or at least I've been told so.
All sarcasm aside, let me ask you a question Wire. If the only troll map to get voted in was Steppes, and the rest were good/decent maps, would you still be this upset?
As a player, I would be quite happy with that (just one veto wasted), but Steppes of War in a map pool which has a chance to be made exclusively of awesome maps would still be an insult to years of evolution of mapmaking. So yeah, I would still be upset. I can live with that, of course, but I'd be very disappointed with the community I thought to be less trollish and stupid than some other gaming ones.
Ok well lets see what the community, and Blizzard, will do with he #dreampool. All I can say is that this season will be very interesting. Lets hope we can get a great ladder experience.
On September 21 2014 17:45 Teoita wrote: Also yeah, blink allin is probably the biggest reason why Antiga would be horribly horribly broken, exactly like Yeonsu was.
Yeonsu was 55-45 in PvT, before Terran got a bunch of buffs and the MsC a bunch of blink specific nerfs. Compare that to 60-40 Deadwing, 43-57 Foxtrot or 35-65 Nimbus.
The central corridor means the Zerg could defend four bases for free while also sieging the opponent's 4th.
That was before Warp Prism play came up, or VR/recall strategies etc. And when Protoss where still in WoL expansion mode. You can just take the other 4th base on Daybreak as Protoss in HotS.
Also the exact same setup is possible on King Sejong Station when both players take the forward 4th bases, and it hasn't broken the map, since KSS game in after Protoss understood how to beat the SH turtle.
Daybreak and KSS isn't exactly the same setup.
KSS has a potential 4th close to the opponent's 4th, but there are 2 other locations to expand from. The other 2 locations can be taken without serious threat from the SH.
Daybreak only has one other 4th to choose from because SH can hit the opponent's other 2 potential 4th base.
I see what people mean about Daybreak being broken because of SH. I think it might be true.
You only need one 4th base that the opponent cannot hit with SHs from his 4th. You just always expand there and that's it, there is not need to have various 4th bases to choose from. Many maps do not have various 4th bases to choose from to begin with. And when you eventually have to take that base as a 5th, it's not different from many, many, many other maps, that you eventually have to take a 5th base that can be attacked by SHs rather easily.
Even more, maps like Polar Night, Heavy Rain, Nimbus, KSS have already shown that rallying from your 4th to the opponents 3rd ord 4th base with SHs isn't broken to begin with. When Daybreak was on the ladder, the metagame just wasn't there yet. Though tbh, the metagame at that time was that Protoss would just win with mass VRs in the lategame and not being able to do so on Daybreak because of SH/static turtle was the reason why Ps thought it was an imbalanced map against Hosts. Hence, they played the game very wrong against SHs.
One last point before I leave that discussion: there is nothing wrong with a specific map favoring a specific race in the matchup's late/end-game. Basically every big map currently favors P turtle. Heavy Rain was pretty good for Z in the lategame. But that doesn't mean Frost/Alterzim/Deadwing are really broken. It just meant that Zerg has to keep in mind not to let P get out of hand too easily.
Yeah I see your point, as long as you can get one safe 4th, it doesn't matter about the rest.
But some of the maps you stated have much better 4th options that are SH safe. We can theorize all day, but we will see what maps get chosen and how they play out.
On September 20 2014 07:56 Entropy137 wrote: I don't see how Antiga would be anything other than gimicky or bad with the current balance of the game.
Don't worry, playing on the old maps, especially the ones which aren't suited at all to modern gameplay, will shake the meta and bring up new strategies so that mapmakers stop making boring similar maps like Frost or Nimbus and get some inspiration from actual masterpieces that stood the test of time, the first example coming across my mind obviously being Steppes of War.
Or at least I've been told so.
All sarcasm aside, let me ask you a question Wire. If the only troll map to get voted in was Steppes, and the rest were good/decent maps, would you still be this upset?
As a player, I would be quite happy with that (just one veto wasted), but Steppes of War in a map pool which has a chance to be made exclusively of awesome maps would still be an insult to years of evolution of mapmaking. So yeah, I would still be upset. I can live with that, of course, but I'd be very disappointed with the community I thought to be less trollish and stupid than some other gaming ones.
Lets hope we can get a great ladder experience.
If people keep this in mind, more than anything troll or nostalgia related, this will definitely be awesome.
I finally realized how bogus is the "but what about the pros" argument. NONE of the old maps will ever get used in serious competition again, no matter whether it is Steppes of War or Ohana. The ladder pool with any of these maps is equally useless for anyone to seriously practice.
So, with this argument out of the way, we can only weep that Steppes is the only really weird map in the actual poll. It could have been useless and funny, but you will have it useless and boring, as you all wish.
Voted purely by nostalgia-value. I ended up with Steppes, TDA, Cloud Kingdom, XNC, Ohana, Daybreak and Metalopolis. They might not be the most fair and balanced maps with today's (or their day's, lol) meta but that definitely doesn't mean they aren't going to be fun to play (:
I just voted for Antiga and Steppes of war. Those are the best two maps, although I have fond memories of amazing games on Shakuras Plateau and Metalopolis.
On September 25 2014 04:33 opisska wrote: I finally realized how bogus is the "but what about the pros" argument. NONE of the old maps will ever get used in serious competition again, no matter whether it is Steppes of War or Ohana. The ladder pool with any of these maps is equally useless for anyone to seriously practice.
So, with this argument out of the way, we can only weep that Steppes is the only really weird map in the actual poll. It could have been useless and funny, but you will have it useless and boring, as you all wish.
You realize some players (who are the best on their teams or don't have any, don't have many connections, etc) get their main practice from ladder ?
On September 25 2014 04:33 opisska wrote: I finally realized how bogus is the "but what about the pros" argument. NONE of the old maps will ever get used in serious competition again, no matter whether it is Steppes of War or Ohana. The ladder pool with any of these maps is equally useless for anyone to seriously practice.
So, with this argument out of the way, we can only weep that Steppes is the only really weird map in the actual poll. It could have been useless and funny, but you will have it useless and boring, as you all wish.
You realize some players (who are the best on their teams or don't have any, don't have many connections, etc) get their main practice from ladder ?
Just to play devil's advocate, couldn't that actually help them by forcing them to find practice partners which will probably be useful in the long run?
i ended up voting for steppes, shakuras, taldarim, xelnaga, daybreak, and my two favorites of all time: antiga and metal. i wish they would say what iterations of the maps they're going to use though because shakuras went through a lot of changes during its stay on the ladder.. i'm assuming the latest TE of the map, but if the point is to play old maps then maybe they'll use the original?
also don't forget to vote on all your accounts not just your primary one!
On September 25 2014 04:33 opisska wrote: I finally realized how bogus is the "but what about the pros" argument. NONE of the old maps will ever get used in serious competition again, no matter whether it is Steppes of War or Ohana. The ladder pool with any of these maps is equally useless for anyone to seriously practice.
So, with this argument out of the way, we can only weep that Steppes is the only really weird map in the actual poll. It could have been useless and funny, but you will have it useless and boring, as you all wish.
You realize some players (who are the best on their teams or don't have any, don't have many connections, etc) get their main practice from ladder ?
Just to play devil's advocate, couldn't that actually help them by forcing them to find practice partners which will probably be useful in the long run?
I don't think so. I'm by no means a good player but I always try to improve, and if the map pool is terrible to the point of irrelevantness I think I'll just skip playing SC2 for two months. And I'm sure I'm not the only "serious" player to think this way. While all the trolls who don't even ladder in the first place will maybe play 10 games instead of 2 this season and then get fed up of the terrible maps they voted for. That's why I hope the map pool we get is suitable for competitive play (and it will probably be, but I'll stand against stupid maps until october 1st).
On September 25 2014 04:33 opisska wrote: I finally realized how bogus is the "but what about the pros" argument. NONE of the old maps will ever get used in serious competition again, no matter whether it is Steppes of War or Ohana. The ladder pool with any of these maps is equally useless for anyone to seriously practice.
So, with this argument out of the way, we can only weep that Steppes is the only really weird map in the actual poll. It could have been useless and funny, but you will have it useless and boring, as you all wish.
Wire realized this like 20 thread pages ago. Although at first I was against him, and suggested we wait and see what goes into the poll, but now I tend to agree with him.
Some of the maps in the pool will be fun to play for a couple of weeks, but once the nostalgia passes we will be reminded Steppes et. al are horrible maps.
On September 25 2014 04:33 opisska wrote: I finally realized how bogus is the "but what about the pros" argument. NONE of the old maps will ever get used in serious competition again, no matter whether it is Steppes of War or Ohana. The ladder pool with any of these maps is equally useless for anyone to seriously practice.
So, with this argument out of the way, we can only weep that Steppes is the only really weird map in the actual poll. It could have been useless and funny, but you will have it useless and boring, as you all wish.
You realize some players (who are the best on their teams or don't have any, don't have many connections, etc) get their main practice from ladder ?
Just to play devil's advocate, couldn't that actually help them by forcing them to find practice partners which will probably be useful in the long run?
You seem to think finding a practice partner is easy. Of course it will help to have a practice partner, but as Wire mentioned, many pros rely on the ladder for training; I believe Bomber trains exclusively on the ladder.
Darkhorse, I'm disappointed. While you seem to have picked every single map that had gold bases in the middle except Antiga Shipyard, you did not pick Steppes of War, or even Daybreak.
Darkhorse, I'm disappointed. While you seem to have picked every single map that had gold bases in the middle except Antiga Shipyard, you did not pick Steppes of War, or even Daybreak.
Darkhorse, I'm disappointed. While you seem to have picked every single map that had gold bases in the middle except Antiga Shipyard, you did not pick Steppes of War, or even Daybreak.
I only had seven votes TT
Change Shakuras Plateau into Steppes of War and you have a perfect pool. + Show Spoiler +
Yeah, it seems to be going as miserably as everyone who gave two shits about the balance of the game could see coming from a mile away. In particular, the pros want nothing to do with it. Tournaments are opting out of it in favor of the last season. They're just alienating devoted players to try to bring back some casuals, who won't stick around. The cheesers who can't ever handle losing or aspiring to play a better overall game of sc are the only ones really enjoying this. It was a lame attempt to get people back and giving a shit about SC2 just in time for an LotV announcement which was itself rife with half-baked concepts and 180 degree reversals on positions they had kept on fan favorite issues like dealing with forcefields, having lurkers, buffing carriers. They're just trying to sell boxes and the dreampool was just an indication of how much they actually care about balance or their pro players, by contrast to what little sales they think they can squeak out by throwing those concerns out of the window for one stab at nostalgia to get the hype train in motion one last time, because it's their last chance to make money off of the game.
So yeah, I wouldn't think that they don't know what they've done and how people would experience it. Blizzard is a business. Fanboys are determined to forget that and be optimistic in ways that could only be enabled by naivete. Confirmation biases are powerful, until you kill them off and take one honest look around XD
I will poop my pants and eat it if Blizzard ever begins to acknowledge that this was a bad idea. They are notoriously uncritical of their own mistakes, and simultaneously obsessed with maintaining a mere image of competence and caring. That's why they only ever /sometimes/ look like the companies who /always/ look like the great companies they really are.
only thing they should have done was probably give people a way to opt out, maybe make the dreampool unranked only or something like that. but it was a fantastic concept. the maps aren't my 100% ideal, but it's still cool for sure
I have to say, its a good feeling to play on the old maps again. But after a few games on them it becomes very boring to have ONLY old maps in the pool. I think it would be a better solution to have 1 old map in each mappool instead of only old maps in one pool.
im really not feeling this pool tbh, i only started playing sc2 in like very late wol (2012ish) so i dont even get the nostalgic feels from most of these maps except daybreak cloud kingdom etc and even then my favourite maps (from when i started playing seriously) were things like whirlwind and star station
iv been offracing more than iv been mainracing tbh, these maps kinda demand the sort of zerg i dont really like to play so yeah thankfully ittl be a shorter season!
sc2: the game where people want to be hand-delivered only the maps that best suit their race and their playstyle or else they have hissy fits and quit playing
On November 23 2014 22:50 brickrd wrote: sc2: the game where people want to be hand-delivered only the maps that best suit their race and their playstyle or else they have hissy fits and quit playing
Indeed, and Blizzard, who wish to make the game as balanced as it possible is bringing back dead maps from wol to make themselves even further from their goal. Well it's not fun to play when the other guy is already having a big advantage while loadscreen is going.
On November 23 2014 22:50 brickrd wrote: sc2: the game where people want to be hand-delivered only the maps that best suit their race and their playstyle or else they have hissy fits and quit playing
Nope. I want diverse and balanced maps. As long as blizzard doesn't change a thing about blink, forcefields, zergs lack of ways to combat cliff abuse, turbovacs, and supermutas maps are very pidgeonholed and then you have to live with that. Some extra defenders advantages might go a long way... + Show Spoiler +
I'm not saying all of them have to be nuked, but it would go a long way if blizzard started doing anything.
On November 23 2014 22:50 brickrd wrote: sc2: the game where people want to be hand-delivered only the maps that best suit their race and their playstyle or else they have hissy fits and quit playing
sc2: the game where people want to play on maps that aren't long worn out and imbalanced.
On November 23 2014 22:50 brickrd wrote: sc2: the game where people want to be hand-delivered only the maps that best suit their race and their playstyle or else they have hissy fits and quit playing
There are 7 maps.
Only 1 was "standard" map last season. The #DreamPool is meant to be a goofy map-pool and it has more "standard" maps than last season had. It's a joke.
I just want ~50% normal maps. A normal map shouldn't really favour any of the races. We know that such maps can exist because we've had them in the past. I don't want experimental maps. No 3P maps with massive positional imbalance and wonky rotation. No maps where the natural is more exposed to drops than it is to a frontal assault, making your main base as exposed as a natural normally would be. No maps where people can camp on four free bases for 20 minutes whilst tinkering with their super-army composition. More Overgrowth, more Bel'Shir Vestige, more fair and balanced maps. Less Blink maps. Less drop maps. Less over-sized maps. Less tiny maps. You can't have 7 standard maps because then every game would look the same, but 4 standard maps and 3 experimental ones (or vice-versa) would be fine: At least then people can veto the experimental ones if they turn out to be imbalanced, which last season's map pool showed us they often do.
A map like Nimbus with a 35% win-rate for one race vs. another race shouldn't exist. Ever.
On November 23 2014 22:50 brickrd wrote: sc2: the game where people want to be hand-delivered only the maps that best suit their race and their playstyle or else they have hissy fits and quit playing
There are 7 maps.
Only 1 was "standard" map last season.* The #DreamPool is meant to be a goofy map-pool and it has more "standard" maps than last season had. It's a joke.
I just want ~50% normal maps. A normal map shouldn't really favour any of the races. We know that such maps can exist because we've had them in the past. I don't want experimental maps. No 3P maps with massive positional imbalance and wonky rotation. No maps where the natural is more exposed to drops than it is to a frontal assault, making your main base as exposed as a natural normally would be. No maps where people can camp on four free bases for 20 minutes whilst tinkering with their super-army composition. More Overgrowth, more Bel'Shir Vestige, more fair and balanced maps. Less Blink maps. Less drop maps. Less over-sized maps. Less tiny maps. You can't have 7 standard maps because then every game would look the same, but 4 standard maps and 3 experimental ones (or vice-versa) would be fine: At least then people can veto the experimental ones if they turn out to be imbalanced, which last season's map pool showed us they often do.
A map like Nimbus with a 35% win-rate for one race vs. another race shouldn't exist. Ever.
Please, Pleeeeaaassseeee don't call that standard, the "standard" term you like to throw around is irrelevant to the amount of spawns a map has, and a map being standard is by no means an assurance that the map will end up being balanced. For the sake of the sanity of any mapmaker that dares try to talk to you, don't say "standard" when referring to 2p standard maps because as i said the standard term is irrelevant to the amount of spawns a map has, just say that you are in love of 2P standard maps and be done with it.
On November 23 2014 22:50 brickrd wrote: sc2: the game where people want to be hand-delivered only the maps that best suit their race and their playstyle or else they have hissy fits and quit playing
There are 7 maps.
Only 1 was "standard" map last season.* The #DreamPool is meant to be a goofy map-pool and it has more "standard" maps than last season had. It's a joke.
I just want ~50% normal maps. A normal map shouldn't really favour any of the races. We know that such maps can exist because we've had them in the past. I don't want experimental maps. No 3P maps with massive positional imbalance and wonky rotation. No maps where the natural is more exposed to drops than it is to a frontal assault, making your main base as exposed as a natural normally would be. No maps where people can camp on four free bases for 20 minutes whilst tinkering with their super-army composition. More Overgrowth, more Bel'Shir Vestige, more fair and balanced maps. Less Blink maps. Less drop maps. Less over-sized maps. Less tiny maps. You can't have 7 standard maps because then every game would look the same, but 4 standard maps and 3 experimental ones (or vice-versa) would be fine: At least then people can veto the experimental ones if they turn out to be imbalanced, which last season's map pool showed us they often do.
A map like Nimbus with a 35% win-rate for one race vs. another race shouldn't exist. Ever.
Please, Pleeeeaaassseeee don't call that standard, the "standard" term you like to throw around is irrelevant to the amount of spawns a map has, and a map being standard is by no means an assurance that the map will end up being balanced. For the sake of the sanity of any mapmaker that dares try to talk to you, don't say "standard" when referring to 2p standard maps because as i said the standard term is irrelevant to the amount of spawns a map has, just say that you are in love of 2P standard maps and be done with it.
I think you are exaggerating what he said. I think Sated is aware that a 3P map could be standard too and that there were some rather standard 4P maps around already. The point he is making is (I think) that the 3-4player maps we had all kind of played around having some wonky features on top of 3-4p maps already playing out a little wonky. (rotational imbalances, bigger size, early scouting issues)
I can really connect to his commend. I'd love it if we just had a certain set of 3-4 good standard maps (make it old ones, I don't mind playing on Daybreak for the next 100years for as long as it is fun) and then 3-4 experimental ones. I don't see the point in making 5-6 of 7 maps semi-wonky when the balance for such features just isn't really there.
I'd like a mappool like: 1) Current standard 2p map 2) Current standard >3p map 3) New map that looks very standard
4) Current map that plays differently and may have small imbalances 5) New map that looks like it will play out differently
Then fill the last two spots with maps like these: *) New Blizzard map **) Community/Popularity Contest Winner ***) Nostalgia map
*) Blizzard sometimes has interesting mapdesigns and though people might not like them as much, e.g. Alterzim produced some of the best PvZs we have ever seen. **) Many good maps result from those, for as long as we don't force each and every popularity contest winner into the mappool we have a good pool to choose from. ***) Many old maps were only retired because they were played so much. Having them return for a season gives many players good memories and isn't all that problematic because those have already been tested so much.
On November 23 2014 22:50 brickrd wrote: sc2: the game where people want to be hand-delivered only the maps that best suit their race and their playstyle or else they have hissy fits and quit playing
There are 7 maps.
Only 1 was "standard" map last season. The #DreamPool is meant to be a goofy map-pool and it has more "standard" maps than last season had. It's a joke.
I just want ~50% normal maps. A normal map shouldn't really favour any of the races. We know that such maps can exist because we've had them in the past. I don't want experimental maps. No 3P maps with massive positional imbalance and wonky rotation. No maps where the natural is more exposed to drops than it is to a frontal assault, making your main base as exposed as a natural normally would be. No maps where people can camp on four free bases for 20 minutes whilst tinkering with their super-army composition. More Overgrowth, more Bel'Shir Vestige, more fair and balanced maps. Less Blink maps. Less drop maps. Less over-sized maps. Less tiny maps. You can't have 7 standard maps because then every game would look the same, but 4 standard maps and 3 experimental ones (or vice-versa) would be fine: At least then people can veto the experimental ones if they turn out to be imbalanced, which last season's map pool showed us they often do.
A map like Nimbus with a 35% win-rate for one race vs. another race shouldn't exist. Ever.
Wholeheartedly agree.
Nimbus became a problem. It wasn't originally a problem. This kind of map is bound to exist and happen when we start exploring more and more deviations from what is "standard" and "normal". Catallena, Nimbus showed us just how much air space is too much air space for drops. Likewise, the mine buff did not help either.
Also some of the maps which were chosen were terran favoured in TvP and that was okay when they were chosen. Why? Because PvT was horribly protoss favoured for a very long time at that point. With the terran buffs and more terran favoured maps it should have balanced out but the maps were 1) too good for drops 2) mines got a big buff.
With this in mind you scale back a bit of the drop space (just like how we have scaled back blinkable space and its position in relation to the natural and main-nat ramp) and it should make for a better map.
Dreampool was fun for a little bit but honestly I don't like it as much as I was hoping to. I was hoping my initial reaction was wrong, and while its not AS bad as it could be it certainly has begun to overstay its welcome - for me anyway.
Also the talk of standard is bad. Standard changes over time. Daybreak used to be standard, its not now. Its horribly imbalanced in favour of heavy siege compositions like swarmhosts or broodlords back in WoL.
Metal was once standard, and lots of maps followed its design and it was in the pool forever.
Whirlwind, Tal'darim - standard at one point.
Daybreak was super turtle macro oriented yup. But it was the only super macro oriented map in the pool.
Also who remembers when overgrowth was vetoed a bunch a few months back because it had a gold base? Now its considered standard?
Sejong was not liked at the beginning because it was too different, and yet now its standard? Standard changes. Pushing the maps and seeing what they do is really important.
On November 23 2014 22:50 brickrd wrote: sc2: the game where people want to be hand-delivered only the maps that best suit their race and their playstyle or else they have hissy fits and quit playing
Well it's not fun to play when the other guy is already having a big advantage while loadscreen is going.
On November 23 2014 22:50 brickrd wrote: sc2: the game where people want to be hand-delivered only the maps that best suit their race and their playstyle or else they have hissy fits and quit playing
There are 7 maps.
Only 1 was "standard" map last season. The #DreamPool is meant to be a goofy map-pool and it has more "standard" maps than last season had. It's a joke.
I just want ~50% normal maps. A normal map shouldn't really favour any of the races. We know that such maps can exist because we've had them in the past. I don't want experimental maps. No 3P maps with massive positional imbalance and wonky rotation. No maps where the natural is more exposed to drops than it is to a frontal assault, making your main base as exposed as a natural normally would be. No maps where people can camp on four free bases for 20 minutes whilst tinkering with their super-army composition. More Overgrowth, more Bel'Shir Vestige, more fair and balanced maps. Less Blink maps. Less drop maps. Less over-sized maps. Less tiny maps. You can't have 7 standard maps because then every game would look the same, but 4 standard maps and 3 experimental ones (or vice-versa) would be fine: At least then people can veto the experimental ones if they turn out to be imbalanced, which last season's map pool showed us they often do.
A map like Nimbus with a 35% win-rate for one race vs. another race shouldn't exist. Ever.
Wholeheartedly agree.
Nimbus became a problem. It wasn't originally a problem. This kind of map is bound to exist and happen when we start exploring more and more deviations from what is "standard" and "normal". Catallena, Nimbus showed us just how much air space is too much air space for drops. Likewise, the mine buff did not help either.
Also some of the maps which were chosen were terran favoured in TvP and that was okay when they were chosen. Why? Because PvT was horribly protoss favoured for a very long time at that point. With the terran buffs and more terran favoured maps it should have balanced out but the maps were 1) too good for drops 2) mines got a big buff.
With this in mind you scale back a bit of the drop space (just like how we have scaled back blinkable space and its position in relation to the natural and main-nat ramp) and it should make for a better map.
Dreampool was fun for a little bit but honestly I don't like it as much as I was hoping to. I was hoping my initial reaction was wrong, and while its not AS bad as it could be it certainly has begun to overstay its welcome - for me anyway.
Also the talk of standard is bad. Standard changes over time. Daybreak used to be standard, its not now. Its horribly imbalanced in favour of heavy siege compositions like swarmhosts or broodlords back in WoL.
Metal was once standard, and lots of maps followed its design and it was in the pool forever.
Whirlwind, Tal'darim - standard at one point.
Daybreak was super turtle macro oriented yup. But it was the only super macro oriented map in the pool.
Also who remembers when overgrowth was vetoed a bunch a few months back because it had a gold base? Now its considered standard?
Sejong was not liked at the beginning because it was too different, and yet now its standard? Standard changes. Pushing the maps and seeing what they do is really important.
Let's take a look at King Sejong and Overgrowth, why they became a "standart" maps? Simply due to a strange and shitty design of Merry Go Round, Catallena and Nimbus :D Players evolved and choosed best of the worst. And still, even horrible Foxtrot is times better than Xelnaga/Metalopolis.
Everybody liked Frost, everybody liked Neo Planet, Belshir Vestige and Whirlwind, but no, our community voted for a ton of Z favored maps, for a ton of soul trains, one base all-ins and cheeses.
On November 23 2014 22:50 brickrd wrote: sc2: the game where people want to be hand-delivered only the maps that best suit their race and their playstyle or else they have hissy fits and quit playing
There are 7 maps.
Only 1 was "standard" map last season.* The #DreamPool is meant to be a goofy map-pool and it has more "standard" maps than last season had. It's a joke.
I just want ~50% normal maps. A normal map shouldn't really favour any of the races. We know that such maps can exist because we've had them in the past. I don't want experimental maps. No 3P maps with massive positional imbalance and wonky rotation. No maps where the natural is more exposed to drops than it is to a frontal assault, making your main base as exposed as a natural normally would be. No maps where people can camp on four free bases for 20 minutes whilst tinkering with their super-army composition. More Overgrowth, more Bel'Shir Vestige, more fair and balanced maps. Less Blink maps. Less drop maps. Less over-sized maps. Less tiny maps. You can't have 7 standard maps because then every game would look the same, but 4 standard maps and 3 experimental ones (or vice-versa) would be fine: At least then people can veto the experimental ones if they turn out to be imbalanced, which last season's map pool showed us they often do.
A map like Nimbus with a 35% win-rate for one race vs. another race shouldn't exist. Ever.
Please, Pleeeeaaassseeee don't call that standard, the "standard" term you like to throw around is irrelevant to the amount of spawns a map has, and a map being standard is by no means an assurance that the map will end up being balanced. For the sake of the sanity of any mapmaker that dares try to talk to you, don't say "standard" when referring to 2p standard maps because as i said the standard term is irrelevant to the amount of spawns a map has, just say that you are in love of 2P standard maps and be done with it.
I think you are exaggerating what he said. I think Sated is aware that a 3P map could be standard too and that there were some rather standard 4P maps around already. The point he is making is (I think) that the 3-4player maps we had all kind of played around having some wonky features on top of 3-4p maps already playing out a little wonky. (rotational imbalances, bigger size, early scouting issues)
I can really connect to his commend. I'd love it if we just had a certain set of 3-4 good standard maps (make it old ones, I don't mind playing on Daybreak for the next 100years for as long as it is fun) and then 3-4 experimental ones. I don't see the point in making 5-6 of 7 maps semi-wonky when the balance for such features just isn't really there.
I'd like a mappool like: 1) Current standard 2p map 2) Current standard >3p map 3) New map that looks very standard
4) Current map that plays differently and may have small imbalances 5) New map that looks like it will play out differently
Then fill the last two spots with maps like these: *) New Blizzard map **) Community/Popularity Contest Winner ***) Nostalgia map
*) Blizzard sometimes has interesting mapdesigns and though people might not like them as much, e.g. Alterzim produced some of the best PvZs we have ever seen. **) Many good maps result from those, for as long as we don't force each and every popularity contest winner into the mappool we have a good pool to choose from. ***) Many old maps were only retired because they were played so much. Having them return for a season gives many players good memories and isn't all that problematic because those have already been tested so much.
He's not actually, he does not consider 3P standard maps to be Standard maps because his view on what standard means when talking about maps is skewed.
I fully agree with you that there needs to be a mix of standard maps, along with other maps that are less so, but that's not what i'm arguing here at all.
Also i disagree with you Zeromuss on that standard changes over time, the standard is based mostly on the flow of the map more than a certain feature, a map with a gold base can be standard, a map that has a island base can be a standard map, a standard map means that the natural is can be walled off with ~3 3x3 buildings that are near the creep edge of a hatchery that's placed on the natural base, meanwhile the main base has a 1x sized ramp that leads to the natural and both base cores(mineral lines+vespene+townhalls) are around ~30 units of distance, meanwhile the third base(s) will find itself(s) at around ~40 units of distance from the natural base core, without falling onto a place that can be considered wide open, it will usually be bordering with the main base perimeter, and a highground/lowground will be in front of it to reduce the exposed area so it will be exposed only by ~two lanes, one of which can be used to park your army.
Daybreak, CloudKingdom, Whirlwind, TDA, and Pantanal are all standard maps if you measure them with the same pole i just gave, Metalopolis could also be considered standardish if you alter the layout to correct the open natural because the distances between the bases correspond to those on a standard map.
One of the issues we have on the community/mapmakers is are the terms we use, standard is one of them, and i consider it to be very important that such terms should be standardized as much as possible.
On November 23 2014 22:50 brickrd wrote: sc2: the game where people want to be hand-delivered only the maps that best suit their race and their playstyle or else they have hissy fits and quit playing
There are 7 maps.
Only 1 was "standard" map last season.* The #DreamPool is meant to be a goofy map-pool and it has more "standard" maps than last season had. It's a joke.
I just want ~50% normal maps. A normal map shouldn't really favour any of the races. We know that such maps can exist because we've had them in the past. I don't want experimental maps. No 3P maps with massive positional imbalance and wonky rotation. No maps where the natural is more exposed to drops than it is to a frontal assault, making your main base as exposed as a natural normally would be. No maps where people can camp on four free bases for 20 minutes whilst tinkering with their super-army composition. More Overgrowth, more Bel'Shir Vestige, more fair and balanced maps. Less Blink maps. Less drop maps. Less over-sized maps. Less tiny maps. You can't have 7 standard maps because then every game would look the same, but 4 standard maps and 3 experimental ones (or vice-versa) would be fine: At least then people can veto the experimental ones if they turn out to be imbalanced, which last season's map pool showed us they often do.
A map like Nimbus with a 35% win-rate for one race vs. another race shouldn't exist. Ever.
Please, Pleeeeaaassseeee don't call that standard, the "standard" term you like to throw around is irrelevant to the amount of spawns a map has, and a map being standard is by no means an assurance that the map will end up being balanced. For the sake of the sanity of any mapmaker that dares try to talk to you, don't say "standard" when referring to 2p standard maps because as i said the standard term is irrelevant to the amount of spawns a map has, just say that you are in love of 2P standard maps and be done with it.
I think you are exaggerating what he said. I think Sated is aware that a 3P map could be standard too and that there were some rather standard 4P maps around already. The point he is making is (I think) that the 3-4player maps we had all kind of played around having some wonky features on top of 3-4p maps already playing out a little wonky. (rotational imbalances, bigger size, early scouting issues)
I can really connect to his commend. I'd love it if we just had a certain set of 3-4 good standard maps (make it old ones, I don't mind playing on Daybreak for the next 100years for as long as it is fun) and then 3-4 experimental ones. I don't see the point in making 5-6 of 7 maps semi-wonky when the balance for such features just isn't really there.
I'd like a mappool like: 1) Current standard 2p map 2) Current standard >3p map 3) New map that looks very standard
4) Current map that plays differently and may have small imbalances 5) New map that looks like it will play out differently
Then fill the last two spots with maps like these: *) New Blizzard map **) Community/Popularity Contest Winner ***) Nostalgia map
*) Blizzard sometimes has interesting mapdesigns and though people might not like them as much, e.g. Alterzim produced some of the best PvZs we have ever seen. **) Many good maps result from those, for as long as we don't force each and every popularity contest winner into the mappool we have a good pool to choose from. ***) Many old maps were only retired because they were played so much. Having them return for a season gives many players good memories and isn't all that problematic because those have already been tested so much.
He's not actually, he does not consider 3P standard maps to be Standard maps because his view on what standard means when talking about maps is skewed.
I fully agree with you that there needs to be a mix of standard maps, along with other maps that are less so, but that's not what i'm arguing here at all.
Also i disagree with you Zeromuss on that standard changes over time, the standard is based mostly on the flow of the map more than a certain feature, a map with a gold base can be standard, a map that has a island base can be a standard map, a standard map means that the natural is can be walled off with ~3 3x3 buildings that are near the creep edge of a hatchery that's placed on the natural base, meanwhile the main base has a 1x sized ramp that leads to the natural and both base cores(mineral lines+vespene+townhalls) are around ~30 units of distance, meanwhile the third base(s) will find itself(s) at around ~40 units of distance from the natural base core, without falling onto a place that can be considered wide open, it will usually be bordering with the main base perimeter, and a highground/lowground will be in front of it to reduce the exposed area so it will be exposed only by ~two lanes, one of which can be used to park your army.
Daybreak, CloudKingdom, Whirlwind, TDA, and Pantanal are all standard maps if you measure them with the same pole i just gave, Metalopolis could also be considered standardish if you alter the layout to correct the open natural because the distances between the bases correspond to those on a standard map.
One of the issues we have on the community/mapmakers is are the terms we use, standard is one of them, and i consider it to be very important that such terms should be standardized as much as possible.
Hm, I see. Personally I wouldn't call MGR too standard either due to the very open 3rd base and how it is quite different depending on whether you spawn clock- or counterclockwise. As you say, that comes down to standardization of terms. Personally I'm measuring how "standard" a map is by how much its features allow for standard gameplay without your opponent being able to blindcounter you. E.g. on MGR a commited timing against a standard timed Protoss 3rd should usually succeed when those builds collide blindly, not so much on Overgrowth or Frost cross positions. I'm open for that to change if someone would make a complete definition of "standard map".
On November 23 2014 22:50 brickrd wrote: sc2: the game where people want to be hand-delivered only the maps that best suit their race and their playstyle or else they have hissy fits and quit playing
There are 7 maps.
Only 1 was "standard" map last season.* The #DreamPool is meant to be a goofy map-pool and it has more "standard" maps than last season had. It's a joke.
I just want ~50% normal maps. A normal map shouldn't really favour any of the races. We know that such maps can exist because we've had them in the past. I don't want experimental maps. No 3P maps with massive positional imbalance and wonky rotation. No maps where the natural is more exposed to drops than it is to a frontal assault, making your main base as exposed as a natural normally would be. No maps where people can camp on four free bases for 20 minutes whilst tinkering with their super-army composition. More Overgrowth, more Bel'Shir Vestige, more fair and balanced maps. Less Blink maps. Less drop maps. Less over-sized maps. Less tiny maps. You can't have 7 standard maps because then every game would look the same, but 4 standard maps and 3 experimental ones (or vice-versa) would be fine: At least then people can veto the experimental ones if they turn out to be imbalanced, which last season's map pool showed us they often do.
A map like Nimbus with a 35% win-rate for one race vs. another race shouldn't exist. Ever.
Please, Pleeeeaaassseeee don't call that standard, the "standard" term you like to throw around is irrelevant to the amount of spawns a map has, and a map being standard is by no means an assurance that the map will end up being balanced. For the sake of the sanity of any mapmaker that dares try to talk to you, don't say "standard" when referring to 2p standard maps because as i said the standard term is irrelevant to the amount of spawns a map has, just say that you are in love of 2P standard maps and be done with it.
I think you are exaggerating what he said. I think Sated is aware that a 3P map could be standard too and that there were some rather standard 4P maps around already. The point he is making is (I think) that the 3-4player maps we had all kind of played around having some wonky features on top of 3-4p maps already playing out a little wonky. (rotational imbalances, bigger size, early scouting issues)
I can really connect to his commend. I'd love it if we just had a certain set of 3-4 good standard maps (make it old ones, I don't mind playing on Daybreak for the next 100years for as long as it is fun) and then 3-4 experimental ones. I don't see the point in making 5-6 of 7 maps semi-wonky when the balance for such features just isn't really there.
I'd like a mappool like: 1) Current standard 2p map 2) Current standard >3p map 3) New map that looks very standard
4) Current map that plays differently and may have small imbalances 5) New map that looks like it will play out differently
Then fill the last two spots with maps like these: *) New Blizzard map **) Community/Popularity Contest Winner ***) Nostalgia map
*) Blizzard sometimes has interesting mapdesigns and though people might not like them as much, e.g. Alterzim produced some of the best PvZs we have ever seen. **) Many good maps result from those, for as long as we don't force each and every popularity contest winner into the mappool we have a good pool to choose from. ***) Many old maps were only retired because they were played so much. Having them return for a season gives many players good memories and isn't all that problematic because those have already been tested so much.
He's not actually, he does not consider 3P standard maps to be Standard maps because his view on what standard means when talking about maps is skewed.
I fully agree with you that there needs to be a mix of standard maps, along with other maps that are less so, but that's not what i'm arguing here at all.
Also i disagree with you Zeromuss on that standard changes over time, the standard is based mostly on the flow of the map more than a certain feature, a map with a gold base can be standard, a map that has a island base can be a standard map, a standard map means that the natural is can be walled off with ~3 3x3 buildings that are near the creep edge of a hatchery that's placed on the natural base, meanwhile the main base has a 1x sized ramp that leads to the natural and both base cores(mineral lines+vespene+townhalls) are around ~30 units of distance, meanwhile the third base(s) will find itself(s) at around ~40 units of distance from the natural base core, without falling onto a place that can be considered wide open, it will usually be bordering with the main base perimeter, and a highground/lowground will be in front of it to reduce the exposed area so it will be exposed only by ~two lanes, one of which can be used to park your army.
Daybreak, CloudKingdom, Whirlwind, TDA, and Pantanal are all standard maps if you measure them with the same pole i just gave, Metalopolis could also be considered standardish if you alter the layout to correct the open natural because the distances between the bases correspond to those on a standard map.
One of the issues we have on the community/mapmakers is are the terms we use, standard is one of them, and i consider it to be very important that such terms should be standardized as much as possible.
While I agree with your definition of standard, I feel like most people don't think of that when they think of "standard". I believe that for the majority of the playerbase a "standard map" is a map that is not broken/does not heavily favour a particular race or strat in a given matchup. This leads to the conception of the "standard" as evolving with time, since a map like CK was perfectly standard for its time but would be considered broken and non-standard if it was introduced as a new map now.
On November 23 2014 22:50 brickrd wrote: sc2: the game where people want to be hand-delivered only the maps that best suit their race and their playstyle or else they have hissy fits and quit playing
There are 7 maps.
Only 1 was "standard" map last season.* The #DreamPool is meant to be a goofy map-pool and it has more "standard" maps than last season had. It's a joke.
I just want ~50% normal maps. A normal map shouldn't really favour any of the races. We know that such maps can exist because we've had them in the past. I don't want experimental maps. No 3P maps with massive positional imbalance and wonky rotation. No maps where the natural is more exposed to drops than it is to a frontal assault, making your main base as exposed as a natural normally would be. No maps where people can camp on four free bases for 20 minutes whilst tinkering with their super-army composition. More Overgrowth, more Bel'Shir Vestige, more fair and balanced maps. Less Blink maps. Less drop maps. Less over-sized maps. Less tiny maps. You can't have 7 standard maps because then every game would look the same, but 4 standard maps and 3 experimental ones (or vice-versa) would be fine: At least then people can veto the experimental ones if they turn out to be imbalanced, which last season's map pool showed us they often do.
A map like Nimbus with a 35% win-rate for one race vs. another race shouldn't exist. Ever.
Please, Pleeeeaaassseeee don't call that standard, the "standard" term you like to throw around is irrelevant to the amount of spawns a map has, and a map being standard is by no means an assurance that the map will end up being balanced. For the sake of the sanity of any mapmaker that dares try to talk to you, don't say "standard" when referring to 2p standard maps because as i said the standard term is irrelevant to the amount of spawns a map has, just say that you are in love of 2P standard maps and be done with it.
I think you are exaggerating what he said. I think Sated is aware that a 3P map could be standard too and that there were some rather standard 4P maps around already. The point he is making is (I think) that the 3-4player maps we had all kind of played around having some wonky features on top of 3-4p maps already playing out a little wonky. (rotational imbalances, bigger size, early scouting issues)
I can really connect to his commend. I'd love it if we just had a certain set of 3-4 good standard maps (make it old ones, I don't mind playing on Daybreak for the next 100years for as long as it is fun) and then 3-4 experimental ones. I don't see the point in making 5-6 of 7 maps semi-wonky when the balance for such features just isn't really there.
I'd like a mappool like: 1) Current standard 2p map 2) Current standard >3p map 3) New map that looks very standard
4) Current map that plays differently and may have small imbalances 5) New map that looks like it will play out differently
Then fill the last two spots with maps like these: *) New Blizzard map **) Community/Popularity Contest Winner ***) Nostalgia map
*) Blizzard sometimes has interesting mapdesigns and though people might not like them as much, e.g. Alterzim produced some of the best PvZs we have ever seen. **) Many good maps result from those, for as long as we don't force each and every popularity contest winner into the mappool we have a good pool to choose from. ***) Many old maps were only retired because they were played so much. Having them return for a season gives many players good memories and isn't all that problematic because those have already been tested so much.
He's not actually, he does not consider 3P standard maps to be Standard maps because his view on what standard means when talking about maps is skewed.
I fully agree with you that there needs to be a mix of standard maps, along with other maps that are less so, but that's not what i'm arguing here at all.
Also i disagree with you Zeromuss on that standard changes over time, the standard is based mostly on the flow of the map more than a certain feature, a map with a gold base can be standard, a map that has a island base can be a standard map, a standard map means that the natural is can be walled off with ~3 3x3 buildings that are near the creep edge of a hatchery that's placed on the natural base, meanwhile the main base has a 1x sized ramp that leads to the natural and both base cores(mineral lines+vespene+townhalls) are around ~30 units of distance, meanwhile the third base(s) will find itself(s) at around ~40 units of distance from the natural base core, without falling onto a place that can be considered wide open, it will usually be bordering with the main base perimeter, and a highground/lowground will be in front of it to reduce the exposed area so it will be exposed only by ~two lanes, one of which can be used to park your army.
Daybreak, CloudKingdom, Whirlwind, TDA, and Pantanal are all standard maps if you measure them with the same pole i just gave, Metalopolis could also be considered standardish if you alter the layout to correct the open natural because the distances between the bases correspond to those on a standard map.
One of the issues we have on the community/mapmakers is are the terms we use, standard is one of them, and i consider it to be very important that such terms should be standardized as much as possible.
While I agree with your definition of standard, I feel like most people don't think of that when they think of "standard". I believe that for the majority of the playerbase a "standard map" is a map that is not broken/does not heavily favour a particular race or strat in a given matchup. This leads to the conception of the "standard" as evolving with time, since a map like CK was perfectly standard for its time but would be considered broken and non-standard if it was introduced as a new map now.
It seems we kinda agree a good map pool should have more maps that don't present "extreme" features (huge maps like Deadwing or Alterzim, huge ramps like Daedalus, plenty of air space like Nimbus, Catallena). 4-5 reasonable maps + 2-3 trying to push the limits sounds good, even though this repartition runs the risk of nearly never seeing the 2-3 experimental ones played in bo3/5s.
Yeah i can see why using gameplay to create a baseline for standard maps could be useful, the issue happens when you realize that the gameplay evolves, which would alter the baseline for what can be considered a standard map, that's why Zeromus says the standard maps change overtime, because he's using the gameplay to judge maps instead of judging the maps by themselves (or at least that's what i get out your comment Zero), and since maps can be so extremely varied, it is very hard to achieve a definition of what is standard and what isn't.
One heavy example of these views colliding is King Sejong Station, from my definition the map can't be considered standard, nonethless from a players perspective the map CAN be considered standard because it does allow many different styles of play.
Other example could be my own Foxtrot, from the map view the map CAN be considered standardish, but from a player perspective the map is not because it strengthens certain styles of play and it does not really allow for extremely greedy play.
As i said, this is one of the things that need discussing, because it is an important topic, specially for the playerbase.
/edit, your answer is here Otherworld, i wrote this comment while you were writing yours and it clearly explains what you are talking about, in the differences between how mapmakers view maps, and how players view them.
/edit2 forgot to bold the first edit >.<
/edit3 i also forgot to mention that this whole post was supposed to be an answer to this + Show Spoiler +
On November 23 2014 22:50 brickrd wrote: sc2: the game where people want to be hand-delivered only the maps that best suit their race and their playstyle or else they have hissy fits and quit playing
There are 7 maps.
Only 1 was "standard" map last season.* The #DreamPool is meant to be a goofy map-pool and it has more "standard" maps than last season had. It's a joke.
I just want ~50% normal maps. A normal map shouldn't really favour any of the races. We know that such maps can exist because we've had them in the past. I don't want experimental maps. No 3P maps with massive positional imbalance and wonky rotation. No maps where the natural is more exposed to drops than it is to a frontal assault, making your main base as exposed as a natural normally would be. No maps where people can camp on four free bases for 20 minutes whilst tinkering with their super-army composition. More Overgrowth, more Bel'Shir Vestige, more fair and balanced maps. Less Blink maps. Less drop maps. Less over-sized maps. Less tiny maps. You can't have 7 standard maps because then every game would look the same, but 4 standard maps and 3 experimental ones (or vice-versa) would be fine: At least then people can veto the experimental ones if they turn out to be imbalanced, which last season's map pool showed us they often do.
A map like Nimbus with a 35% win-rate for one race vs. another race shouldn't exist. Ever.
Please, Pleeeeaaassseeee don't call that standard, the "standard" term you like to throw around is irrelevant to the amount of spawns a map has, and a map being standard is by no means an assurance that the map will end up being balanced. For the sake of the sanity of any mapmaker that dares try to talk to you, don't say "standard" when referring to 2p standard maps because as i said the standard term is irrelevant to the amount of spawns a map has, just say that you are in love of 2P standard maps and be done with it.
I think you are exaggerating what he said. I think Sated is aware that a 3P map could be standard too and that there were some rather standard 4P maps around already. The point he is making is (I think) that the 3-4player maps we had all kind of played around having some wonky features on top of 3-4p maps already playing out a little wonky. (rotational imbalances, bigger size, early scouting issues)
I can really connect to his commend. I'd love it if we just had a certain set of 3-4 good standard maps (make it old ones, I don't mind playing on Daybreak for the next 100years for as long as it is fun) and then 3-4 experimental ones. I don't see the point in making 5-6 of 7 maps semi-wonky when the balance for such features just isn't really there.
I'd like a mappool like: 1) Current standard 2p map 2) Current standard >3p map 3) New map that looks very standard
4) Current map that plays differently and may have small imbalances 5) New map that looks like it will play out differently
Then fill the last two spots with maps like these: *) New Blizzard map **) Community/Popularity Contest Winner ***) Nostalgia map
*) Blizzard sometimes has interesting mapdesigns and though people might not like them as much, e.g. Alterzim produced some of the best PvZs we have ever seen. **) Many good maps result from those, for as long as we don't force each and every popularity contest winner into the mappool we have a good pool to choose from. ***) Many old maps were only retired because they were played so much. Having them return for a season gives many players good memories and isn't all that problematic because those have already been tested so much.
He's not actually, he does not consider 3P standard maps to be Standard maps because his view on what standard means when talking about maps is skewed.
I fully agree with you that there needs to be a mix of standard maps, along with other maps that are less so, but that's not what i'm arguing here at all.
Also i disagree with you Zeromuss on that standard changes over time, the standard is based mostly on the flow of the map more than a certain feature, a map with a gold base can be standard, a map that has a island base can be a standard map, a standard map means that the natural is can be walled off with ~3 3x3 buildings that are near the creep edge of a hatchery that's placed on the natural base, meanwhile the main base has a 1x sized ramp that leads to the natural and both base cores(mineral lines+vespene+townhalls) are around ~30 units of distance, meanwhile the third base(s) will find itself(s) at around ~40 units of distance from the natural base core, without falling onto a place that can be considered wide open, it will usually be bordering with the main base perimeter, and a highground/lowground will be in front of it to reduce the exposed area so it will be exposed only by ~two lanes, one of which can be used to park your army.
Daybreak, CloudKingdom, Whirlwind, TDA, and Pantanal are all standard maps if you measure them with the same pole i just gave, Metalopolis could also be considered standardish if you alter the layout to correct the open natural because the distances between the bases correspond to those on a standard map.
One of the issues we have on the community/mapmakers is are the terms we use, standard is one of them, and i consider it to be very important that such terms should be standardized as much as possible.
Hm, I see. Personally I wouldn't call MGR too standard either due to the very open 3rd base and how it is quite different depending on whether you spawn clock- or counterclockwise. As you say, that comes down to standardization of terms. Personally I'm measuring how "standard" a map is by how much its features allow for standard gameplay without your opponent being able to blindcounter you. E.g. on MGR a commited timing against a standard timed Protoss 3rd should usually succeed when those builds collide blindly, not so much on Overgrowth or Frost cross positions. I'm open for that to change if someone would make a complete definition of "standard map".
Foxtrot is definitely standard to my mind, it was one of my favorite maps on the last pool with Overgrowth. Which styles would you say are favored on it ?
Well, I see a lot of pro players complaining on twitter about this map pool (demuslim, targa, etc...) and I was wondering why the heck blizzard really wishes to continue this stuff until 5 Jan. Is anyone here on TL is actually having fun on the #dreampool or ... ?
I'm actually having a good time too though swarm hosts styles can be quite frustrating. But overall I'm enjoying the map pool. It's probably easier to enjoy the map pool as Protoss though.
I think it was a good idea, right now the meta is stuck in the same "standard" patterns without much deviation, one of the reasons people dislike the map pool is because "balance", however what blizzard is doing really makes sense, in LotV they are going to be a lot of changes and of course people will jump to the balance part without addressing the dessing part much (people are already complaining about balance when LotV ISN'T EVEN BETA) so these maps will help people get used to the fact that the game is going to much more different and also not as balanced than what it is right now, in LotV you won't be able to 3 base turtle to 200 max in 18 minutes, much like you can't with most of these maps, so I think it was a good plan to help people get used to how things are going to be in the beta and also so they can discard they're notions of "standard" that in LotV won't mean shit.
Also I like the map pool is not bad to shake things up everyonce in a while
To be honest, I'm too low of level for the maps to make much of a difference. Some of the old maps are fun for nostalgias sake though, so that makes it worth it for me personally. I hope after this season we stick with a few more 'experimental' maps.
I'm enjoying the Dream pool, but it's unfortunate that they are still using the old maps for tournaments. Doesn't make much sense when the majority of the player base uses ladder as their primary practice.
Even as a casual player, when you see a pro use a strategy on a certain map, you draw inspiration from that and use it in your own play.
I'm enjoying the Dreampool quite a lot too. Especially how it promotes different qualities than the "regular" map pool. I mean you used to be able to do the same 3CC/double Ebay build in TvZ on all maps. And zergs knew how to play against it, so people played in a really similar way on all maps, since the builds worked more or less on all maps.
But now ? Please go try a 3CC double Ebay build in TvZ on metalo or XNC, I dare you :-p
Right now, I feel like the map pool rewards way more scouting, adaptation and improvisation rather than perfect build orders and optimisation. At least that's how I feel in TvZ and TvT. I don't feel like it affected TvP that much tho...
On November 24 2014 07:05 Twine wrote: Well, I see a lot of pro players complaining on twitter about this map pool (demuslim, targa, etc...) and I was wondering why the heck blizzard really wishes to continue this stuff until 5 Jan. Is anyone here on TL is actually having fun on the #dreampool or ... ?
I'm having fun with it.
Oh and by the way, the map pool can be fun to play and still problematic. The biggest issue for pros at the moment I think is that they can't really use the ladder to practice anything else than mechanics, because the maps aren't used in tournaments.
On November 24 2014 09:14 Lexender wrote: I think it was a good idea, right now the meta is stuck in the same "standard" patterns without much deviation, one of the reasons people dislike the map pool is because "balance", however what blizzard is doing really makes sense, in LotV they are going to be a lot of changes and of course people will jump to the balance part without addressing the dessing part much (people are already complaining about balance when LotV ISN'T EVEN BETA) so these maps will help people get used to the fact that the game is going to much more different and also not as balanced than what it is right now, in LotV you won't be able to 3 base turtle to 200 max in 18 minutes, much like you can't with most of these maps, so I think it was a good plan to help people get used to how things are going to be in the beta and also so they can discard they're notions of "standard" that in LotV won't mean shit.
Also I like the map pool is not bad to shake things up everyonce in a while
I don't think so. If you veto Metalopolis and XNC you receive pretty standard 3 base maps where you can turtle on 3 bases pretty good. I remember good portion of games with 3 bases and more on Akilon, Cloud Kingdom, Daybreak, Ohana and Shakuras. But on all the maps I named you can get to 3 bases pretty safe. The worst from the list is Daybreak, IMHO. I can never get 3rd properly against good zerg, the nexus placement always prevents me from defending the 3rd properly and it gets destroyed. DAMN IT ><
On November 24 2014 17:53 LoneYoShi wrote: I'm enjoying the Dreampool quite a lot too. Especially how it promotes different qualities than the "regular" map pool. I mean you used to be able to do the same 3CC/double Ebay build in TvZ on all maps. And zergs knew how to play against it, so people played in a really similar way on all maps, since the builds worked more or less on all maps.
But now ? Please go try a 3CC double Ebay build in TvZ on metalo or XNC, I dare you :-p
Right now, I feel like the map pool rewards way more scouting, adaptation and improvisation rather than perfect build orders and optimisation. At least that's how I feel in TvZ and TvT. I don't feel like it affected TvP that much tho...
But there are perfect build orders on maps like XNC. People are just a little rusty with them.
For example, I'm rediscovering my love for Robo-before-Nexus openings in PvT :3
Indeed, but a perfect build per map isn't the same as a perfect build for the whole map pool. It feels a lot more varied, and that's what's really enjoyable about that map pool IMHO. Maps were way too similar (and I suppose that if you veto XNC and Metalo, they still are to a certain extent...) Also, as you say, people are rusty, so you can make stuff work that shouldn't really be able to work :D
On November 24 2014 09:14 Lexender wrote: I think it was a good idea, right now the meta is stuck in the same "standard" patterns without much deviation, one of the reasons people dislike the map pool is because "balance", however what blizzard is doing really makes sense, in LotV they are going to be a lot of changes and of course people will jump to the balance part without addressing the dessing part much (people are already complaining about balance when LotV ISN'T EVEN BETA) so these maps will help people get used to the fact that the game is going to much more different and also not as balanced than what it is right now, in LotV you won't be able to 3 base turtle to 200 max in 18 minutes, much like you can't with most of these maps, so I think it was a good plan to help people get used to how things are going to be in the beta and also so they can discard they're notions of "standard" that in LotV won't mean shit.
Also I like the map pool is not bad to shake things up everyonce in a while
I don't think so. If you veto Metalopolis and XNC you receive pretty standard 3 base maps where you can turtle on 3 bases pretty good. I remember good portion of games with 3 bases and more on Akilon, Cloud Kingdom, Daybreak, Ohana and Shakuras. But on all the maps I named you can get to 3 bases pretty safe. The worst from the list is Daybreak, IMHO. I can never get 3rd properly against good zerg, the nexus placement always prevents me from defending the 3rd properly and it gets destroyed. DAMN IT ><
Hm, might want to look into old Oz games if you have trouble taking a third on Daybreak. He played 1gate/3rd nexus (after FFE) back in WoL days on Daybreak before MsC and gateway expands. One of the first Protoss I remember doing the walled in canons as part of his build every game.
Edit: God damn it, even just finding any noname Vods from 2012 is hard... Might not be worth the time looking for them ^^
On November 24 2014 09:14 Lexender wrote: I think it was a good idea, right now the meta is stuck in the same "standard" patterns without much deviation, one of the reasons people dislike the map pool is because "balance", however what blizzard is doing really makes sense, in LotV they are going to be a lot of changes and of course people will jump to the balance part without addressing the dessing part much (people are already complaining about balance when LotV ISN'T EVEN BETA) so these maps will help people get used to the fact that the game is going to much more different and also not as balanced than what it is right now, in LotV you won't be able to 3 base turtle to 200 max in 18 minutes, much like you can't with most of these maps, so I think it was a good plan to help people get used to how things are going to be in the beta and also so they can discard they're notions of "standard" that in LotV won't mean shit.
Also I like the map pool is not bad to shake things up everyonce in a while
I don't think so. If you veto Metalopolis and XNC you receive pretty standard 3 base maps where you can turtle on 3 bases pretty good. I remember good portion of games with 3 bases and more on Akilon, Cloud Kingdom, Daybreak, Ohana and Shakuras. But on all the maps I named you can get to 3 bases pretty safe. The worst from the list is Daybreak, IMHO. I can never get 3rd properly against good zerg, the nexus placement always prevents me from defending the 3rd properly and it gets destroyed. DAMN IT ><
Hm, might want to look into old Oz games if you have trouble taking a third on Daybreak. He played 1gate/3rd nexus (after FFE) back in WoL days on Daybreak before MsC and gateway expands. One of the first Protoss I remember doing the walled in canons as part of his build every game.
EPT
Steppes of War
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