EPT#Dreampool: Old ladder maps return for Season 4 - Page 29
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
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AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
I'm sure it will be okay!! I voted for maps like Whirlwind, Tal Darim Altar and some others that I felt would be fine. always loved playing and watching tvt's on those maps. I like Daybreak a lot too, but that map was around for soooooooo long maybe it's better it didn't come back  | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On September 19 2014 09:43 AxionSteel wrote: Exactly. Also you just need to relax. Steppes will probably get voted in for the lolz, veto it. There are plenty more decent maps. Shakuras is 2010 and it will stand up very well today, i even think Blistering Sands would go okay. Scrap Station i always thought was a fascinating, unique and interesting map, it just wouldn't work today with oracles, speedy vacs and regen mutas. I'm sure it will be okay!! I voted for maps like Whirlwind, Tal Darim Altar and some others that I felt would be fine. always loved playing and watching tvt's on those maps. I like Daybreak a lot too, but that map was around for soooooooo long maybe it's better it didn't come back To put it into perspective. If 4 of the 7 maps are troll maps, you can veto 3 of them. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On September 19 2014 09:14 Thieving Magpie wrote: Actually, Jinro and TLO dropping nukes for 30-45 minutes on desert oasis and delta squadron has never been boring. Players beginning engagements during the first 3-4 minutes of the game and having the action not stop for the next 10-15 minutes was also always entertaining on steps of war. It sucked to play since games suck when cyber core is your late game tech because the map is too small and the resources too scarce for anything else. The games were much scrappier, and much more immediate than today. Back then, macro play was being defensive for 6 minutes and then all out aggression as opposed to 10 minute pokes we have now. It was a different meta. Awful to play, but fun to watch. Have you actually watched the game you are referencing in the past 4 years? (Me vs Socke on Desert Oasis is the one with the nukes) Because I have. Yeah, it's a good memory for me, being the first time I beat Socke in a series (he always beat me when I was in Europe), but watching the game the level of play is fucking abysmal, and the map only barely even came into things. It's like 2-1 upgrades after 30 minutes... come on. Desert Oasis could be a good map if you fixed it. Desert oasis with a natural that is so far away from your ramp as to practically be a 3rd base equivalent on a modern map, is not viable. Blistering Sands with a backdoor into your main and a choke point to your nat that is halfway across the map, is probably not viable. Scrap station with the main bases being a Tempest shot distance apart, is not viable. Maps like Akilon Wastes or Xel'Naga with the gigantic wide open naturals, are not viable. Lost Temple with the entire main being open to reapers and blink, is not viable. I'm completely with Wire on this, it's not going to be nearly as fun as you all think. Maybe it will be fun for the first 20 games, which is fine for the people who don't actually ladder (lots of people in this thread saying 'this will make me ladder some again'), but for the people who actually actively ladder... playing 500 games on a horrible map pool is not a tempting prospect for a new season. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
I'm completely with Wire on this, it's not going to be nearly as fun as you all think. Maybe it will be fun for the first 20 games, which is fine for the people who don't actually ladder (lots of people in this thread saying 'this will make me ladder some again'), but for the people who actually actively ladder... playing 500 games on a horrible map pool is not a tempting prospect for a new season. I've started playing more actively the past month or so. Which means I play 1 and every now and then 2 games a day 2-4 days a week. You're right, people like me will not feel the pain of grinding 500+ games on these maps. People like me will veto most of the maps that we are cheering for on this thread. I want Xel Naga Caverns, and Scarp Station, and Lost Temple. But I'm probably going to veto steps of war, I'm probably going to veto Blistering Sands, and I'm probably going to have a love hate relationship with lost temple depending on how many zergs I tank drop on it. But I won't really feel the imbalance on these maps. I'm just not at a high enough level, nor do I play at a consistent enough basis to be affected by map balance when its hard enough for players like me to execute build orders optimally without losing concentration. But I'm willing to bet that there's a lot of players like me, and lot less players that play 500+ games a season that will feel the actual map imbalance. | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
On September 19 2014 12:14 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Desert Oasis could be a good map if you fixed it. Desert oasis with a natural that is so far away from your ramp as to practically be a 3rd base equivalent on a modern map, is not viable. Blistering Sands with a backdoor into your main and a choke point to your nat that is halfway across the map, is probably not viable. Scrap station with the main bases being a Tempest shot distance apart, is not viable. Maps like Akilon Wastes or Xel'Naga with the gigantic wide open naturals, are not viable. Lost Temple with the entire main being open to reapers and blink, is not viable. I'm completely with Wire on this, it's not going to be nearly as fun as you all think. Maybe it will be fun for the first 20 games, which is fine for the people who don't actually ladder (lots of people in this thread saying 'this will make me ladder some again'), but for the people who actually actively ladder... playing 500 games on a horrible map pool is not a tempting prospect for a new season. You also forgot about the wide ramp to the natural in Scrap Station. While your arguments on the non-viable maps are justified, I don't think it will be as awful as you and Wire think it will be. Now if all those maps made it into the #dreampool, sure things might turn into a painful nightmare. However, I think it will be interesting to see how some of them play out in HotS. I agree the nostalgia will wear off, but by that time we will move onto the new season. And those that think the trolls will prevail, lets just wait and see what gets voted. If the trolls do prevail and we get these non-viable maps, then just join in the trolling. Take this for what it is, a bone to the fans for sticking around for so long with a "dying game". | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
On September 19 2014 12:14 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Maps like Akilon Wastes or Xel'Naga with the gigantic wide open naturals, are not viable. huh? What was wrong with Akilon? Despite the flak it always got it had fairly balanced statistics, allowed for a variety of different plays, and many of the best games of 2013 were on it. It had a good lifespan as well. Personally, I always found it rather underrated. | ||
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Qwyn
United States2781 Posts
On September 19 2014 07:35 [PkF] Wire wrote: I'm appalled because everyone with half a brain cried tears of pain when seeing the ladder maps back in 2010-2011, and after years of complaining to get a somewhat balanced and well-designed map pool, we want to get back the maps that were horrible back then, and will still be horrible today ? "We'll see more agressive strats", "this will shake the meta", my ass, and people complain TvT is dull because it's 1 base play ? Open your eyes, the games on those maps will be dreadful and you'll be sick of them after a week. People could ask for Overgrowth, Nimbus and Frost, and most of the posts I read are looking forward to Scrap Station, Metalopolis or Blistering Sands. This is not a matter of taste, this is a matter of logical reasoning and telling what is terrible beyond human understanding and what is great, this is the difference between One Direction and fucking Mozart. Maybe this #dreampool (dream of whom ? Of a retarded 13-year old troll ?) will end up being OKish, there has been some great maps in recent times. Even maps like Entombed Valley or Shakuras Plateau could and should be given a shot. But when I see people actually yearning for Steppes of War or Scrap Station like they weren't the most terrible maps ever, I'm sorry, it really sets my teeth on edge. Oh, and please give a think about this poetic metaphor I already proposed earlier in this thread : if you spent your infancy eating shit, would it taste good to you today because of nostalgia ? Dude. It's for two months. TWO MONTHS. You're writing as though we are returning to the shit for brain map pools of the past forever - never to return to the maps we have now. Obviously not. And you are still assuming that maps like Steppes of War have been locked in and are a given. They're not. From what I'm reading it sounds like you're having a self-induced hernia over this shit. Who knows? Maybe that means for two months you're going to have to all-in. Well after the end of those two months then you're either going to be really good at all-inning...or you'll take a break. But once again, - that is based on the ASSUMPTION that these terrible old maps are going to be added to the pool at all. I reckon a few of them will be. But we'll have to wait in see. If on the day of the vote the maps in the voting pool are ALL terrible maps - as in, more than 3 vetoes worth - then sure. You know what, I'll probably be complaining with you. And I'll probably just six pool or two rax. But until then, why not be excited by the prospect of all the GOOD maps which might be brought back into the pool? I for one salivate thinking of getting the chance of playing on Frost again. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On September 19 2014 14:07 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: huh? What was wrong with Akilon? Despite the flak it always got it had fairly balanced statistics, allowed for a variety of different plays, and many of the best games of 2013 were on it. It had a good lifespan as well. Personally, I always found it rather underrated. Sorry wrong map name, that one is good... Cant remember the correct name but itwas a 4 player map with horrible open natural and I think it had akilon in the naem. Akilon wastes is actually a map I owuldn't mind back in place of overgrowth or something. | ||
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-NegativeZero-
United States2142 Posts
On September 19 2014 15:19 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Sorry wrong map name, that one is good... Cant remember the correct name but itwas a 4 player map with horrible open natural and I think it had akilon in the naem. Akilon wastes is actually a map I owuldn't mind back in place of overgrowth or something. Typhon Peaks? | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Yes! Horrible map. | ||
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VegaMatt
United Kingdom11 Posts
Seems to me like this is catering to people that barely even use the ladder system, only playing a few games here and there. Most decent level players get their practice mostly from ladder, I cant believe they are seriously suggesting fucking that up for the sake of bringing back some shitty maps. If people are that desperate to play on scrap station, join a custom game with it. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24239 Posts
On September 19 2014 15:42 VegaMatt wrote: Sorry but they're are people who play thousands of games a season at the higher levels, you can't just ignore that so a bunch of lower level players can get a nostalgia fix. This is absolutely ridiculous no one at a decent level wants to have to play for a couple of months on maps which will be horrendously imbalanced. Seems to me like this is catering to people that barely even use the ladder system, only playing a few games here and there. Most decent level players get their practice mostly from ladder, I cant believe they are seriously suggesting fucking that up for the sake of bringing back some shitty maps. If people are that desperate to play on scrap station, join a custom game with it. You and Jinro bring some sense to this thread, which is really good. People who say I'm just an angry party pooper don't seem to understand my concern is that we actually get some dreadful maps because there are people (and many, if I read a lot of posts correctly) who believe 2010 maps will be fun to play on. They won't. With the exception of Shakuras Plateau (and maybe Tal'darim Altar with no rocks on 3rd) no map prior to the Cloud Kingdom-Daybreak-Korhal Compound map pool is decent and would make me feel anything but disgust and contempt. I'm OK with classic maps which actually deserve the name of map, not with the crap we had to bear the whole 2010-2011. I guess we'll end up with a decent map pool with some modern maps in it which will allow serious players to train normally, but if no one express their concerns about what could be a wasted ladder season, the road is free for Blistering Sands and Scrap Station. In fact I quite agree with you Qwyn, I'm just trying to warn people about what you think is not likely to happen (you must be of optimistic nature) and what I think is bound to happen if too many stupid maps are on the prelist (people can be really dumb if given the opportunity to). | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On September 19 2014 15:42 VegaMatt wrote: Sorry but they're are people who play thousands of games a season at the higher levels, you can't just ignore that so a bunch of lower level players can get a nostalgia fix. This is absolutely ridiculous no one at a decent level wants to have to play for a couple of months on maps which will be horrendously imbalanced. Seems to me like this is catering to people that barely even use the ladder system, only playing a few games here and there. Most decent level players get their practice mostly from ladder, I cant believe they are seriously suggesting fucking that up for the sake of bringing back some shitty maps. If people are that desperate to play on scrap station, join a custom game with it. You do realize that low level players outnumber GM and masters on ladder by 100 to 1. Their wants and desires are very relevant to the scene at whole. Edit: took a a look at the reddit ladder numbers, maybe it's closer to 30 or 40 to 1, my point still stands though  | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
which translate to me as : "I'm right and you're fucking wrong and you don't know how to use your brain" "A game that exceeds five minutes must be too much to handle for some minds." => "You are so dumb you can't watch a game more than 5minutes i'm superior to you, i have a mind superior to yours" I don't think i'm the only one to think that you are overly aggressive. Just may be use a lighter tone Read your post again. And see why people think you are an "angry party pooper". But again. Might be that you use "strong words" while you don't mean too  | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16086 Posts
so we probably won't have a map pool with only maps from 2010-2011 and the few maps from that period that might make it (steppes of war, metalopolis, scrap station) can be voted if you don't want to play on them, so i don't really see a problem with the dreampool | ||
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Tzyx
Northern Ireland281 Posts
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On September 19 2014 22:24 Tzyx wrote: i wouldn't want to see all of the map pool be 2010 maps. a nice spread would be perfect. Being able to play on steppes of war now would be interesting for a bit, but not if the whole pool was like that. Nostalgia =\= only 2010 Perfect would be about 2ish maps per year wife 2010 so we get to actually compare and contrast what map making has done on a more immediate level. Even have the year pop up on the loading screen "Xel Naga Caverns (2010)" So people who were bad before but better now can really see how far the game has gone. But it would also give a lot of players what they're asking for. Some players whine that Protoss expansions are too safe, it's too easy to get a natural and a 3rd. Some people complain that Terran aggression is too neutered. Some people complain that all maps seem too similar with natural into 3rd being too linear. Let them play the maps that predicated those modern changes. Let them see a meta game where photon overcharge is not enough to protect nexus first builds. Let them play maps with cliffs for siege tanks to rain down from. Remind them why the modern map pool is boring. And do it by giving them exactly what they want. | ||
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Szgk
Poland112 Posts
On September 19 2014 13:37 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: I agree the nostalgia will wear off I would play on Nostalgia. Maybe with fixed mains since we have upward facing ramps now in 2014. There haven't been enough maps with mineral only bases in SC2. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24239 Posts
On September 19 2014 21:46 FFW_Rude wrote: "you're fucking wrong and you don't know how to use your brain" This is indeed what I meant, and I lack the imagination to phrase it in a nice and comprehensive way. I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but if you think even a few WoL beta maps would be OK because they will play out "agressive" and "fun" you're a moron and you need to be told the truth. We'll see what comes out from it, and it'll probably end up OK thanks to the vetos, but people who have even the slightest hope a game on those terrible maps could be half-decent need to be aware of how wrong they are. What I find shocking is when given the opportunity to have an amazing map pool (a lot of recent maps were awesome and balanced) there are persons to yearn for the stupidest and worst maps we ever had, which really baffles me : it's like being offered to be prepared any possible meal and to ask for a shit sandwich. I don't find it useless to tell those persons they're complete morons. | ||
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