EPTPros React: WCS 2015 and Region Lock - Page 12
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NOTICE: Blizzard has not officially announced any information on visa criteria, and some players are operating under unconfirmed assumptions. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
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FuRRie
Belgium815 Posts
All those pro's saying, lol NA skil level. | ||
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Pandahunterz
Netherlands213 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 10 2014 13:32 lichter wrote: I actually agree that 80% wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but Catz is overstating his opinion. Giving specific examples of players and matches, such as this Huk vs Check game, or Snute vs Flash, or any other matchup doesn't prove any point, one way or another. The mean level of play is what matters, since obviously there will be duds and great games from all regions. The fact is, the standard of play in Korea is higher. Most of the time, that means better games. However, for casual audiences level of play doesn't matter as much. All that matters is their enjoyment of matches, and that is determined by more than just skill level. Skill, circumstances, and the players involved (local favorites, etc) all matter to a person's enjoyment. That's why the "decreased skill level = decreased viewers" argument likely won't hold. If it does, it definitely won't have a linear relationship. The problem is, he is arguing this point on TL. The posters most likely to reply watch more games, play more ladder, and have different priorities watching a game. Whether their understanding of skill level is real or delusional is beside the point; their opinion on skill level affects their enjoyment of the game. Just as many casual fans choose to watch games because of their favorite local heroes, many on TL watch specific players expecting higher level play. Whether or not they actually understand all the depths of skill on display is irrelevant; the fact is the skill level in Korean tournaments is higher, and that knowledge and expectation affects how they enjoy the games. It's entirely subjective, and the reason is no less legitimate than watching someone because he comes from the same country. However true it is that most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between top foreigners and middling Koreans and that the gap is slowly closing, you are preaching to the wrong choir. Agreed Lichter. The main problem is that TL is made up of the most hard of SC2 fans, but does not make up the majority of the 10-14k or more that tune in each night. But some folks think that the active members of TL make up the majority of the people that watch SC2(which if you think about the numbers, there is no way) | ||
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Valefort
France228 Posts
On September 10 2014 18:32 Azarkon wrote: It's been said already: Starcraft's audience today largely consists of people who have little interest in the 'home scene,' and who just want to see the best players and the best games. The Sandisk Invitational proved that. For this audience, Blizzard's decision is utterly illogical. It excludes a dozen of the best players in NA, takes away highly coveted foreigner vs. Korean match-ups, and is guaranteed to result in lower quality games. Largely ? I'm not so certain. Look at Nationwars for example, there were no koreans, the players were not the absolute best and ... yet it was a great success. However to be fair I think in both cases these two tournaments were alone, the audience did not have to be split between two major competitions so it's hard to tell. Personally when only koreans are left in a tournament my interest drops a lot, to the point I often turn the stream off, unless there are players I like to see. In that regard region lock, even with visas (and thus guranteeing a relatively stable presence of those players in the local scene), is a great thing. | ||
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Skynx
Turkey7150 Posts
Edit: just read Taeja omg hahahahahah that pun | ||
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NexUmbra
Scotland3776 Posts
Well, for example we're in the situation where Classic, a champion of the toughest region, might not make it to Blizzcon this year. I don't think GSL is the hardest, I think it's all pretty similar. I think non-Korean wins should be recognized all the same. Haha I'm not so sure about that but you can't argue with the soOjwa I guess. | ||
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Jornada
United States223 Posts
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SinCitta
Germany2127 Posts
About what CatZ said I would have mostly agreed for the longest time. But ever since HotS and KeSPA, I think Korean games are noticeably superior. This also conincides with the Korean domination throughout all of 2013. In games between Foreigners the games are much more reliant on build order advantages and single mistakes that decide the game, Koreans have become much more resilient to them. By the way, in my opinion this is a game design flaw: The game should be balanced for high-level play but even on lower level games the game should be not so dependent on build order advantages or execution "luck". That influences both watching and playing the game. CatZ didn't call the majority of viewers idiots. To exaggerate and put words into the contrary position is very poor discussion culture and unnecessarily weakens one's own points. Look, 10% of all players are Diamond, 2% are Masters! Our default assumption is that everybody is at least Diamond but that is simply not true. It's like in every other sports: 80% or more have little idea of the high-level details. They notice things like when the game is pacy or slow, but they don't know whether that's because the defence is shitty. Furthermore, there are two ways to watch SC2. Looking at it analytically or watching it purely for enjoyment. Someone that watches more for enjoyment normally eats the casters' words without thinking twice. And that is more or less independent of skill level. In enjoyment mode, I do not bother to watch for mistakes, it is mostly about how entertaining and thrilling a match is. Personally, watching on a stream I totally go into enjoyment mode. When I watch ingame I totally go into analytical mode. Too bad there is no live ingame observing for pro games. Some people argue that only the hardcore people are left and Blizzard should hence cater to them. But their job isn't to satisfy an ever shrinking number of people. If Blizzard accepted the fact that the can only draw in the hardcore crowd anymore, WCS would close shop tomorrow. // By the way, I don't get why people use Shoutcraft America as the prime example for disaster. It wasn't that. The first Shoutcraft America performed better than WCS AM on the same days despite it being, literally, unwatchable at times (due to TB's Internet connection problems of multiple hours). The second Shoutcraft America was plagued by forfeits and was overshadowed by Jaedong vs Scarlett on Northcon (first Jaedong premier victory vs only foreign premier victory of 2013 storyline). TB called it a failure concerning immediate ROI of the single sponsor that offered service only in USA despite half the viewership being outside of that. I am not trying to talk them up to be successes by any means, but they weren't the same kind of financial disaster WCS AM under MLG and NASL were. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9385 Posts
However, for casual audiences level of play doesn't matter as much. All that matters is their enjoyment of matches, and that is determined by more than just skill level. Skill, circumstances, and the players involved (local favorites, etc) all matter to a person's enjoyment. That's why the "decreased skill level = decreased viewers" argument likely won't hold. If it does, it definitely won't have a linear relationship. The determination of region lock or not should not be based on whether the entertainment value changes or not, but how it will affect viewer numbers. If what you care about is whether the games in them selves are entertaining there is no reason in the first place to have a WCS system. The same thing can be accomplished by online-streams. Thus, it has to be about maximizing viewer numbers. Given that it's quite obvious that Koreans are simply better, you cannot deceive players into thinking that these random NA players are of the highest-caliber, and viewers are - in general - much less interested in watching the 25th best NA player battle it out against another unknown dude. They much rather prefer to watch the top 5/10 NA players vs koreans, even if the entertainment value of the games are the same. Thus the whole "can't tell the difference"-argument completley misses the point. Compared to real sports, this would be like arguing that I as a dane would be just as happy to watch the Austrian football league as the CHL or premier league because I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Obviously that's simply not true. Perceived skill-difference is what matters. | ||
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ragz_gt
9172 Posts
On September 10 2014 17:45 Daniri wrote: There's no reason to act offended. He's saying that he himself would have difficulty. It's arrogant and it's absurd to think you or the average viewer know the game better than Catz that you'd so easily be able to. Pro player have more technical knowledge, but that's not the same as saying they are smarter or more perceptive. If you ever hear any pro sports interview regarding strategy and tactics, they usually comes off sound dumber than a doorbell. The fact that they can execute better does necessarily means they have better ability of observing. On September 10 2014 22:16 SinCitta wrote: CatZ didn't call the majority of viewers idiots. To exaggerate and put words into the contrary position is very poor discussion culture and unnecessarily weakens one's own points. Look, 10% of all players are Diamond, 2% are Masters! Our default assumption is that everybody is at least Diamond but that is simply not true. It's like in every other sports: 80% or more have little idea of the high-level details. They notice things like when the game is pacy or slow, but they don't know whether that's because the defence is shitty. So you are saying that you can't tell apart MLS and EPL, because you never played football at high level? | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
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-Genome-
Australia156 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
actually it's quite refreshing to have Korean players' answers more interesting than foreigners' | ||
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SinCitta
Germany2127 Posts
On September 10 2014 22:52 ragz_gt wrote: So you are saying that you can't tell apart MLS and EPL, because you never played football at high level? At one point, I put all my text into one paragraph so people stop misquoting. There is a paragraph before that that states that Korean play has been visibly superior since HotS, contradicting CatZ (so yes, they can tell apart MLS and EPL). The next paragraph puts that into perspective and states that independent of skill, people look at games with different objectives in mind, blurring the perception of skill. In other words, it's not that they can't tell skill gaps apart, but that they don't care and rather want to enjoy the games. The paragraph you are quoting tries to convey the message that viewers aren't idiots independent of the fact whether they can or cannot tell apart the difference between Korean and Foreigners. And that skill relative between players is clearer for everyone to see than absolute level of skill of both players (so no, MLS should not disband). | ||
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jarod
Romania766 Posts
I am not upset at all with koreans living in a region and playing there.. like eu koreans or polt and violet.. they moved to US.. stay there.. and I`m pretty sure they may stay there even if not for SC2. But I`m annoyed by the koreans who came for the easy money, like San, PigBaby, Hearth, Alicia.. and many others. Also I can understand the logic of Taeja and Jaedong not playing in korea, cause they represent the 2 stars of the most famous foreign teams, TL and EG, so the foreigners wants to see them live and playing at watchable hours. Anyhow things will get mixed up a bit next year, which I feel can be only a good thing. Also I need to say that I respect Innovation and Dear for returning to korea/korean teams soon. | ||
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ragz_gt
9172 Posts
On September 10 2014 23:36 SinCitta wrote: At one point, I put all my text into one paragraph so people stop misquoting. There is a paragraph before that that states that Korean play has been visibly superior since HotS, contradicting CatZ (so yes, they can tell apart MLS and EPL). The next paragraph puts that into perspective and states that independent of skill, people look at games with different objectives in mind, blurring the perception of skill. In other words, it's not that they can't tell skill gaps apart, but that they don't care and rather want to enjoy the games. The paragraph you are quoting tries to convey the message that viewers aren't idiots independent of the fact whether they can or cannot tell apart the difference between Korean and Foreigners. And that skill relative between players is clearer for everyone to see than absolute level of skill of both players (so no, MLS should not disband). No, that's not what you said at all. What you said is that "First paragraph: I can tell the difference between KeSPA and NA. Second paragraph: but since most people are not master or diamond, they can't." It might not be what you meant, but that's the message you conveyed, because that paragraph is absolutely nonsense and have no place in any argument. Individual ability to play a sport or game have little correlation with ability to observer and understand the same, otherwise all the coach and manager of pro sports that never played at highest level might as well just all quit now. | ||
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Goofinator
England45 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9385 Posts
On September 10 2014 23:39 jarod wrote: I will be happy to see european players in RO8 WCS EU and also NA players in RO8 WCS AM. Even if some, like last year.. we always had like 3 4 europeans, also NA had some non koreans. This year was a disaster, especially for NA. I am not upset at all with koreans living in a region and playing there.. like eu koreans or polt and violet.. they moved to US.. stay there.. and I`m pretty sure they may stay there even if not for SC2. But I`m annoyed by the koreans who came for the easy money, like San, PigBaby, Hearth, Alicia.. and many others. Also I can understand the logic of Taeja and Jaedong not playing in korea, cause they represent the 2 stars of the most famous foreign teams, TL and EG, so the foreigners wants to see them live and playing at watchable hours. Anyhow things will get mixed up a bit next year, which I feel can be only a good thing. Also I need to say that I respect Innovation and Dear for returning to korea/korean teams soon. The problem with this type of logic is thar your only looking at Ro8 where only the very best foreigners will play. But what about ro32 and ro16 (?) Good luck getting viewers to watch ro32 group stagess if it consisted of only NA players. | ||
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sc2isnotdying
United States200 Posts
Basically what I'm saying is that Korea has a more dynamic metagame which makes for more entertaining games. Region lock might help, might not. Its hard to tell. Isn't Taeja only 19? Seems a bit young to start his military service, when he's raking in so much prize money still. | ||
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