Blizzard recently announced some sweeping changes for the 2015 season of WCS, including the introduction of the controversial region lock policy. We asked progamers from all three WCS regions for their thoughts on Blizzard's announcement.
WCS 2014 has been one of our most exciting competitions yet! As we near the finale of Season 3 on the road to the StarCraft II Global Finals, we’d like to share a few details covering major changes for WCS 2015 that will affect the players and the WCS competition. We will share more information about 2015 as soon as possible. But we wanted to share the following changes immediately so players can start planning for next year.
WCS Reset For WCS 2015 we will be resetting all points, Challenger, and Premier slots. All players will be required to participate in their respective regional qualifiers to be a part of WCS 2015 Season 1.
Redistribution of the Ladder Wildcard Qualifier Slots With the success of the regional qualifier system, we have decided to remove the 2014 Ladder Wildcard slots for WCS America and WCS Europe. The regional slot distribution will be released at a later date. All players in each league must adhere to the residency requirements.
Residency Requirements Starting in 2015, all WCS players must be legal residents of the region they choose to play in. This means that players must obtain necessary visas if they decide to reside and play in non-native regions.
We are continuing to shape our WCS 2015 plans so stay tuned for additional news. We will be sharing a comprehensive WCS 2015 announcement later this year.
WCS Europe
yoE.San
What are your thoughts on the changes for 2015? I think I was one of beneficiaries of the 2014 WCS policy. I was able to be very active in a relatively easier region, and I was able to scratch together WCS points as I went to several foreign tournaments. This year's system was good to me, but I think it would have been annoying to watch for players competing in the Korea region -- watching someone who you think is a worse player get more prize money and WCS points. So I don't think region locking is a bad idea for 2015. You could say things will become more fair?
On the other hand, I don't know if the region lock will have much meaning, contrary to Blizzard's intent. The European players all seem to have visas except me, and I don't know how much meaning there would be if it was just me dropping out of the region. As for WCS America, I expect big changes...
"There's a good chance that the Taiwanese prelims will be a Korean party. There's six Korean players right now who are competing in Taiwan, and more players might join as well. "
Have you considered trying to get a visa in Taiwan in order to compete in WCS America? Yes, even before the region lock was announced, I've been preparing to get a working visa. It doesn't seem so difficult, so I should be able to compete in WCS America next year if I want. There's a good chance that the Taiwanese prelims will be a Korean party. There's six Korean players right now who are competing in Taiwan, and more players might join as well. That could really ruin the purpose of a region lock... There's a high chance that the winners of the Taiwanese prelim will be all Korean. [Note: This is San's speculation -- there has been no confirmation by Blizzard on this point. Related info here.]
Honestly, if you lock NA... I don't know if this is a nice way to put it, but it would be like Spain's football league having Barcelona and Real Madrid go up against a bunch of division five teams that were suddenly promoted to the top flight. 2015 might be even better for me than 2014, but as a fan of StarCraft 2, it might be boring to watch. The North American scene needs to develop, and it's still lagging behind Europe. I wonder if a pure nationality lock would have been better.
In any case, Korea needs more WCS points and prize money if Blizzard is going to lock regions. Overall, I think a region lock is good for the growth of SC2, but there could be a lot of side effects. There's a lot of time left until the 2015 season starts, and I hope Blizzard finalizes the system well.
mYi.StarDust
What do you think of the WCS 2015 changes? Positive or negative? Outside whether it's good or bad, I notice some holes in the system. Visas are the criteria here, so it seems like as long as you can get the right visa, you could just live in Korea and travel for tournaments like you can now.
In terms of protecting EU/AM players... I think Europe already has achieved a degree of self-sustainability already. European players are pretty good, right? I think they've always had potential, from Stephano and Naniwa before and players like VortiX, Snute, and Bunny who are growing now. North America, I'm not really sure. If you filled the WCS Ro32 with just NA players, the line-up would look so... light.
In short, I welcome the changes to the system. Because the foreign scene has to live for StarCraft 2 to succeed. I think you have to grow the entire pie. Even if Korean players have to take a hit (although that doesn't matter in my case).
Whether or not foreign players will grow or decline as they compete among themselves... that I don't know!
Do you feel that the level of competition on the EU ladder has gone up after Koreans settled there? Yes, I agree completely. When I first went to Europe from Korea, I was better at first. As time passed, it felt like people were catching up.
What would your plan be if it turned out you couldn't compete in Europe under Blizzard's new WCS standards? It wouldn't matter to me. It wouldn't be good, but I think I'm already receiving enough benefits.
Anything outside the region lock you'd like Blizzard to take a look at in the WCS 2015 season? Faster feedback? I'd like more direct communication with progamers when they're balancing maps or units. I think the speed at which they take progamer opinions into account is slow.
For example, if a major flaw was found during WCS 2015, I'd like if a change was made in the middle of things. I feel like we've lost a lot in 2014 because of too much focus on maintaining consistency.
Liquid`TLO
What are your thoughts on the region lock? Well I've already given my thoughts to Aceresport.
"I think it's good that people are required to have the proper visa to compete in their regions. eSports lately keeps crying: ''look at us we're so legitimate''. So if we want to have that being taken seriously, there is certain legal protocol that needs to be followed. Sooner or later players would get in trouble anyways. I hope many Korean teams and players will be able to get a Visa and still be able to compete in other regions. It would be a shame if this will remove the majority of the Koreans in my opinion."
F*** Acer. How do you think this will affect WCS EU in terms of popularity and level of competition? I don't think it'll affect Europe that much to be honest. Maybe it'll help viewership if non-Koreans make it deeper into WCS or even the finals, but I bet the best Koreans will still stay here anyway.
"... to reach that goal we don't need to kick out Koreans -- instead we need to strengthen our infrastructure... ...Region lock is just a cop out, not a long term solution..."
Do you think that a stronger foreign scene is necessary for the long term success of SC2? I do believe a stronger foreign scene is required yes. However to reach that goal we don't need to kick out Koreans -- instead we need to strengthen our infrastructure. Teams need the money to invest into proper training structure and take a bigger role than just being an agency for players. Region lock is just a cop out, not a long term solution.
At the same time non Korean progamers also need to step it up. There's too few pros who take their job seriously outside of Korea. I don't think the Korean model of team houses is particularly great either, but it gives the players in Korea at least enough discipline and structure to train a lot (albeit inefficiently in my opinion). It's still better than how it is for most people who try do it on their own. It's hard to not be lazy when you're working from home and can decide the majority of your schedule by yourself.
Liquid`Bunny
General thoughts? I think it’s very healthy for the scene. It gives up and coming players a reason to practice harder and hopefully there will be some more high level foreigners as a result. I feel sorry for some of the Koreans though, there are a lot of them who will have a hard time competing in Korea if they have to go back, it will probably cause retirements.
I'm happy that Blizzard are allowing people from Taiwan and China to play in WCS NA instead of Korea. I hope the region locking in 2015 works out well!
What do you think of concerns that the change will cause some pros to become more complacent instead of motivating them to compete? I think anyone who would become complacent at an easier chance to earn more money and fame doesn’t have what it takes in the first place!
Snute theorized some time back that the large number of Koreans moving to Europe and playing on the server had caused the foreigners to get better as well. Do you agree, and how would you feel if more Koreans decided to acquire visas and relocate to Europe as a result of the WCS lock? It definitely helped raise the overall level, I think I personally learned a lot from playing against some of the Koreans. I’m not sure if the European region would benefit more from having even more Koreans, it would probably just become harder to place high. But I guess all the best Koreans are still going to play in WCS KR, and getting a few average Koreans over shouldn’t be a big deal.
mill.VortiX
Overall thoughts? I kinda like the new changes, I think right now it's bad that people can play qualifiers, Challenger and Premier league of regions where they don't live in, and resetting everything for 2015 is cool since people's shape vary a lot from one season to another
Do you think it will actually result in a big change for Europe, considering the fact that many of the Koreans are already living in the region on visas? Won't change too much from now I guess, but it will maybe prevent new Korean players trying to play WCS EU if they fail in GSL. Like if the current system went on I wouldn't be surprised if we had lot more Koreans in the future and perhaps full Korean lineup in ro8, and lot more than now in ro16/ro32.
Do you think we might see the return of some European pros who were discouraged/retired in the past? As long as it's not a full region lock I don't think so, like there might still be 6-7 Koreans that are gonna be allowed to play if I'm not wrong, and all of them are favoured against any foreigner, I guess if I retired because the massive amount of Koreans I wouldn't be back unless there were 0 Koreans and I thought I had real chances of making top1.
mill.ForGG
What do you think of the WCS 2015 changes that were announced? I think it's a good policy. There are some players in WCS Europe who live and practice in Korea and only come to Europe to play in tournaments, and I think that is unfair. I also think that WCS Korea's prize money should go up while NA should get less prize money relatively. Assuming that many Koreans in WCS America will return to the GSL, the level of WCS America is just going to be too easy compared to Korea or Europe.
Snute has theorized that the relocation of Korean players to Europe has improved the level of play on the server. Do you agree? Yes, when I first came to Europe it was very easy playing on the server. Now, there's a lot of Korean players on the server, and the overall level of European players has gone up as well.
In the end, do you think there will be a big change in the WCS Europe region specifically? No, I don't think there will be a big effect on WCS Europe.
GSL/WCS Korea
SKT_soO
As a player in the GSL, what are your thoughts on the WCS region lock? From my perspective, it doesn't seem like a bad idea. I'm not really sure about the exact rules, but I think from a fan's perspective, it would have been a bit boring to see Koreans dominate all the tournaments.
Anyone returning to the GSL you're worried about, or would like to face? I'm not exactly sure who's coming back, but I've always wanted to face TaeJa. I hope he comes over.
Blizzard is considering the redistribution of WCS points by region. What do you think is an appropriate amount for Korea compared to other regions? Hmmm, I don't know why there's a need to do that. I think all regions should reward the same amount of points.
Well, for example we're in the situation where Classic, a champion of the toughest region, might not make it to Blizzcon this year. I don't think GSL is the hardest, I think it's all pretty similar. I think non-Korean wins should be recognized all the same.
However, if the points are the same, I wish the other conditions were the same as well. Proleague makes it so that it's hard to collect WCS points in Korea, so I would like it if there were similar opportunities to earn points in Korea outside of the GSL.
Samsung_Solar
As a player in the GSL, what are your thoughts on the WCS region lock? Well, it wouldn't be that bad for me. And foreign players would be able to get some better results as well. In exchange, I think it would be appropriate to increase the number of WCS points you could earn in Korea as a whole.
Anyone you'd like to face among the players returning to the GSL? Personally, I'd like to face TaeJa. Also, I want to see Jaedong and Flash face each other.
"I'd like it if they'd try to get KeSPA players opinions when they're making balance patches. Like, have KeSPA send out a survey to all the players."
Any other things you'd like to see Blizzard pay attention to in 2015? Hm, I'd like it if they'd try to get KeSPA players opinions when they're making balance patches. Like, have KeSPA send out a survey to all the players. I'd like it if they'd ask all of us our opinions. Also, when they're making new maps, I'd like it if they asked us our opinions before making them ladder maps. Finally, it would be great if we could have four or more GSLs a year. Three is too few T_T
WCS America
Liquid`TaeJa
General thoughts on the region lock? Hm, I guess they locked the regions because Koreans were taking such huge advantage of competing in other regions.
I think if Blizzard wanted to stop Koreans from competing in other regions, they should have locked things off the bat. I don't know why they're stepping in now and stopping Koreans. For Europe, it doesn't seem like it's a big deal to get a visa. It's just the players competing in WCS America who are getting the short end of the stick.
Don't you think that the North American scene needs to grow in order for the long term health of SC2? There aren't even many NA pros to save.
So what's next for you? Me, well I'm retiring anyway. I was already planning to retire after this year, I have to do my military service and all...
x5.PiG
Well firstly we don't know TOO many details about what's happening, if I'm correct its just that there will be a proper/more serious region-lock based on residency, the entire system will be reset, and Blizz are LOOKING at more points/money for KR. I think it's looking good because it should improve the play, the storylines and chance for viewer + talent growth for each region.
1. The play - Forcing people to relocate forces them onto the local ladders if they want to play latency-free. This has a flow on effect of helping the region. I'd be even happier if not only was there a residency requirement but also a ladder requirement where players had to play several hundred games on their WCS ladder each season, or they would fall out of the system. Either way, any Koreans playing in a foreign region will have to live and practice there, and hopefully more personal connections/practice will spring up between them and the local players, as well as their improved ladder practice
2. Fostering talent - It's clear that certain regions have superior environments for fostering talent. This comes down to the strength of the local ladder, the existence of teamhouses and similar ideal practice environments and how numerous chances for competition are. In this regard Korea has the strongest ladder and teamhouses and is overall the strongest. Europe has the most chances for competition and a few teamhouses, so it comes in second. North America comes in last with no active SC2 teamhouses, the weakest ladder and the fewest chances for competition. The issue arises when you let players benefit from one environment whilst competing in another, weaker environment for WCS. We saw this most of all with half of NA premier league being players living in Korea but competing in the weaker region.
Now I'll finally get to my point by explaining it in relation to tennis. Let's imagine Nadal decided to compete in the womens competitions at a Grand Slam... it would kind of fuck with the established storyline of women's tennis, because well, this dude came and destroyed everyone really one-sidedly. It's kind of gross to watch your heroes get demolished like that and it derides the importance of the league. People will probably get mad at that and be all "But foreigners aren't women, there's no physical/biological thing holding them back and nothing stopping them going to Korea to practice and compete." But it's not just foreigners that have this problem, it's also Koreans that live in the weaker environments for a long period, they too start to struggle with the players who come fresh from the Korean environment.
Many in eSports can't afford to send players to practice in Korea to compete alongside these guys and so it just becomes a situation where the newest players from the Korean environment have a tendency to win- ALOT. In effect, it's like a new male champion coming in every year and shitting on the integrity of the league. That's my long winded retarded way of explaining why I think the previous system was bad for storylines. The hardly known PiGbaby's (hehe) coming in and collecting their prize, without adding anything to the environment, or truly becoming a part of the local scene. I HOPE that with the new system the environments outside Korea will improve at a faster rate, the storylines of each region will become more stable with more recurring heroes and more clashes of talent with local identities.
As for the reset I think anything that forces so many players to relocate their life or change regions there needs to be a reset to make it fair to all. As someone outside of the current system I'm very excited at so many spots being available in season 1!
As a SEA player, any thoughts on being held in thrall to WCS America for the third year running? It sucks but we aren't big enough to have our own thing so whatever I guess, at this point I'm used to it and kind of accepting of it. I'd actually like to come overseas to compete for most of next year if I can justify it, but competing with some lag to NA isn't the worst card one could draw .
CMStorm_Polt
What do you think of the WCS 2015 changes? There hasn't been much announced so far, so I think we should wait until more details are out. Region locking in itself is a good idea, but it will be very important to see how Blizzard handles the player imbalance between regions. In any case, I think it's a good change in the long run.
North America has been in a bad place for a while -- do you think the region lock could help? The NA players seem very positive about the change, so I suppose it will at least be better than before?
Some fans are saying you're the true winner in all of this. What's your take on that? Well, as some of you know, I have to go to the military and so my remaining days as a progamer are limited. I hope I can win it all at the end, and go out in a good way.
There's still more details left to be announced about WCS. Anything you'd like to see addressed? I'd like it if Blizzard looked at the point distribution for BlizzCon qualification. I think it's correct to remove points from tournaments where the proportion of invited players is high. Also, there's very few Tier 1 tournaments compared to Tier 2 tournaments. Blizzard should either reduce the Tier 1 requirements, raise the requirements for Tier 2, or create a new tier in between. It would be good if Blizzard tweaked the system in some way to allow for a wider variety of tournaments.
Roccat_HyuN
What do you think about the WCS 2015 changes? The Korean community is reacting negatively, but it seems the foreign community is positive. Hmm, well I guess it would be mostly Korean players who get hurt? Personally I don't have any special feelings about it -- I just play as the rules tell me to.
If you had to return to the GSL, would you base yourself in Europe and fly out to Korea for GSL matches? No, I think that would probably be impossible? As it is now, it seems like I'd be forced back to the GSL. For me it would be like last year, staying based in Korea while I fly out to foreign tournaments.
The uncertain thing about this is that Korean players with certain visas will still be able to play in non-Korean regions. So those players will be benefiting even more than they are now. Polt and viOLet should be able to keep getting good results in North America, as well as the players who have visas in Europe. You might even see more players try to get European visas and move to that region. At least that's how it seems to me. I think that if they are going to lock the regions, then maybe a stricter lock would be better?
Is there anything else you'd like Blizzard to take care of in the 2015 season of WCS? I heard that the tax on BlizzCon prize money is pretty high. It's the biggest tournament of the year, so I hope they can give more consideration for taxes like in Dota2. If they can't, then oh well.
EG.HuK
The large majority of community figures think this is the right/smart move for SC2. That includes Korean players who are negatively affected by it or team owners (TB who has been pushing for it for over a year). A lot of people are worried about Korean retirements, which is definitely an issue; and has been an issue for the foreign scene since 2 years ago when WCS was opened up to Koreans. Hopefully this means that NA/EU foreign progamers will work harder since incentive is there money wise to actually make some decent money, and more importantly amateur/aspiring progamers will have something to look forward to. Overall the bottom line is that there will always be a side suffering, for last 2 years its been NA/EU regions for WCS and now it is Korea.
"...the bottom line is that there will always be a side suffering, for last 2 years its been NA/EU regions for WCS and now it is Korea. The only way everyone is happy if Blizzard invests a lot more money into more tournaments, but at this point they are already investing so much and it is unreasonable."
The only way everyone is happy if Blizzard invests a lot more money into more tournaments, but at this point they are already investing so much and it is unreasonable. Hopefully we see some WCS points added to proleague or GSL, but even if it's not I would expect to still see 90%+ of BlizzCon participants under the current system for be Koreans. I want to remind the community of a few points though, KeSPA is truly king right now in Korea as well as teams/sponsorships. The #1 thing most pro players want out of SC2 is simply to do what they love and make a livable wage so they can keep doing so. For awhile now for the majority of foreign pro players this has been nearly impossible, especially NA pros who don't have the social infrastructure that the EU countries may have as well as the tougher competition in GSL lite (WCS AM).
As expected a lot of western teams are offering less and less salary and players are dependent on winnings/other revenue. KeSPA players on average earn more salary and have a minimal livable salary as well housing and other support for their players. It's a tough situation, but in the end its the right decision. The ones who will suffer the most is non KeSPA Korean players.
Regarding the revitalization of the NA pro scene, do you think the outlook is positive with just WCS America and possibly Red Bull next year? WCS region lock is definitely going to help, if Redbull is still going to do SC2 ; I would be very happy looking forward to playing another year as a old progamer.
ROOT.CatZ
I'm happy about the changes, when NASL started and WCS wasn't even a thing I was voicing concerns on the growth of the NA and EU scenes, EU did better with more tournaments and regional leagues like the EPS. Koreans moving to EU and practicing on the EU ladder certainly helped EU as a whole maintain a better level and the NA ladder as a result is complete ass right now. The great majority of good NA players play on other servers today as a result. I think that these changes will slowly but steadily help the growth and the skill level of the NA scene and give its players motivation and something to improve and work hard for.
"... but in all honesty I call bullcrap on people whose argument is 'I want to see the best game of SC2 possible and I can tell the difference between top foreign play and Korean play' because I'm almost certain they can't."
I've likely been the person to voice these concerns most openly for the longest time and so I know that it's a very polarizing topic. It's hard to argue with people who say "I just want to watch the best possible games" because it is my opinion that foreign players are just as smart as Koreans, just as talented, and in many cases just as hard working. The lack of infrastructure is perhaps the biggest gap that needs to be closed. I know I have many Korean practice partners and I discuss strategy and in many cases 'teach' and advise code S level players on their play and strategy. I do the same with plenty of foreigners and I honestly don't think there's any sort of a gap as far as understanding of the game and strategy goes. Mechanically the very top level Koreans are better in general and the metagame is slightly different in each region but in all honesty I call bullcrap on people whose argument is "I want to see the best game of SC2 possible and I can tell the difference between top foreign play and Korean play" because I'm almost certain they can't.
Foreign play can be just as interesting, just as deep strategically, and in many cases just as or very close to Korean top level mechanically. When Destiny said this in the past he got a load of crap for it, but seriously; I know i'd have trouble watching a game and recognizing a Code S from a top foreigner game if the names were to be blacked out. I could cast a game of Flash vs soO point out every mistake and say it was Petraeus vs Bunny and most people would believe it, much like I could cast Illusion vs Kane, praise all of the little things they do and say it was Flash vs soO. I REALLY doubt many people could tell the difference (generally speaking, random examples, obviously you could tell who your favorite player is if you know his style and patterns) and by many people I mean, I doubt anyone who isn't at least KR GM level would have much of a chance to say with certainty who's who.
Anyway that's my opinion on that and an experiment I'd like to do at some point, I think casters often times show clear bias towards "favored" players a lot of the time and tend to point out mistakes from the player that is more unlikely to win a match, because obviously you want to be right and that's the safe bet in 'calling the game.' In reality often times it's tiny edges the casters miss many times that decide or change the course of the game. Quick example is my 1 base muta game vs Snute @ RB Detroit, the casters were very confused and said things like "Sorry catz but this is just not going to work" or "If this works I'll have to just quit" obviously neither of them played Zerg, but watching the VOD it felt more like "Sorry CatZ you won't beat Snute" where as I'm certain if it had been soO doing the same strategy they'd be very interested to see where it was going and how it could work instead of trying to find reasons and mistakes that they thought would eventually lose me the game.
The skill gap between foreigners and Koreans is all in tiny details, and often times its not even there. I bring up the casters because I think that's part of the reason why people think they can tell apart foreigners and Koreans -- we normally see Koreans praised for their play while foreigners are often times expected to lose before the game starts. I think people should be hyped for good games, hyped for the new format, and look forward to seeing what the NA scene can do and what it can become. Because there's certainly a lot of talent -- I think WCS NA will have plenty of amazing games and I'm really excited for it. I'm glad Blizzard is slowly but surely doing what I believe to be the correct moves to maintain the game and potentially grow it's fanbase once LotV comes around.
Once again I know this is a polarizing opinion, and there's many people who want to see skill rewarded, I hope GSL awards more points and more prize money, I have no issues with that , but I'm happy WCS NA will be more focused towards the growth of you know... NA. And I think in the long run that's definitely for the best of the game. And even if some people don't agree with that, I think it's hard to deny that viewership numbers in tournaments often times go down when the last foreigner is out, unlike BW, most of the viewership for SC2 is outside of Korea. That's why we even see KeSPA wanting foreign teams to participate in Proleague, its because foreigners still drive a lot of the audience. The better foreigners perform and the more exposure they get the better for the game in the long run.
On September 10 2014 05:24 SNSeigifried wrote: Well it seems San reinforced what i expected to happen with San/Check/Daisy/Leenock/Nado/Ruin getting taiwan visas to play in na xD.
mmm well it's worth reiterating that there's no info from blizzard on exact visa standards, so he might be making an incorrect assumption
Korea Koreans calling out Taeja even though he said he is going to retire.
Yes please to Jaedong vs Flash
Kind of odd how TW plays in WCS NA even though they are on the KR/TW server. I guess they would get crushed otherwise. I wish China's server could just be merged in with KR/TW's >_>
SKTsoO Well, for example we're in the situation where Classic, a champion of the toughest region, might not make it to Blizzcon this year. I don't think GSL is the hardest, I think it's all pretty similar. I think non-Korean wins should be recognized all the same.
Taeja, Soo and Scar's responses made me lol. Soo just seems like a chill dude, zero fucks given. I was kind of hoping for him to comment on how getting to three GSL finals is pretty hard, compared to farming mid-level foreigner invite tournaments.
Didn't really seem to be anyone who was too negative about it, interesting.
Lol Catz, just happy to get rid of the real competition.
Of course you can tell the difference between shit NA pros and top tier Koreans.
Enjoy your un-earned money. If you want to be a professional you should work hard and earn it, not have it handed to you because you weren't born in Korea.
Catz: "I call bullcrap on people whose argument is "I want to see the best game of SC2 possible and I can tell the difference between top foreign play and Korean play" because I'm almost certain they can't."
This is a dishonest way to state this, because the top foreigner players are already getting screen time in the current system. The people we will get to see more as a result of the change is people who are a level below that, and yeah I can certainly see the difference between those people and average koreans (or even top foreigners).
I don't think it's too bad if some progamers are retiring. Like, I don't know the Korean system too well, but your career as a progamer is always limited and you always need a plan B. Having to retire is sad because you don't get to live your dream, but it was always going to happen at some point. And even if half the Korean pro gamers retire then there are still at least 20 Koreans better than any foreigner.
I still wish for Blizzard to keep the Korean scene alive more though. More money and points for GSL, WCS points for proleague, KeSPA cooperating more with foreign tournaments, more tournaments in Korea. Anything really.
I don't believe Catz when he says that the difference between Koreans and foreigners is small. Haven't we gone over this argument often enough? The foreign scene largely consists of people that play part-time. Every single Korean pro is favored against every single foreigner with like five exceptions.
Seriously, the three regions similar in difficulty? I want whatever he is smoking.
Now really seriously, couldn't be that he meant something else... like... "you should be recognized and rewarded in the same way in all regions regardless of difficulty"? Otherwise I really don't get it, if GSL wasn't way more difficult why would all these Koreans fly to other regions...?
Well this makes feel kind of old like I was a fan of sc2 from the very 2007 announcement of the game and now all my fav player are gone Idra, Naniwa, Thorzain and now taeja
On September 10 2014 06:13 Silvana wrote: I think CatZ paid soO to say what he said
Seriously, the three regions similar in difficulty? I want whatever he is smoking.
Now really seriously, couldn't be that he meant something else... like... "you should be recognized and rewarded in the same way in all regions regardless of difficulty"? Otherwise I really don't get it, if GSL wasn't way more difficult why would all these Koreans fly to other regions...?
I was hoping that TaeJa would reconsider his retirement thing, I'm disappointed. I mean, he's only 19 years old. And we'll lose Polt and Bomber next year too because of the military, that's sad.
On September 10 2014 06:09 Grumbels wrote: I don't believe Catz when he says that the difference between Koreans and foreigners is small. Haven't we gone over this argument often enough? The foreign scene largely consists of people that play part-time. Every single Korean pro is favored against every single foreigner with like five exceptions.
thats exactly what hes saying tho? you cant go into progaming as easily as a NA starcraft player compared to KR, its just a different world and a different culture
i see people mocking NA pros as being lazy or stupid or deserving scorn because they dont want to commit to 16hr/day practice and learning to speak korean. i dont think its a bad thing that WCS AM/EU could potentially become more inviting for people who want to compete among the best in their regions but don't want to have to tank their social and academic lives to do so. as long as blizzard makes appropriate changes with regard to WCS points and prizemoney i think its good for fans
On September 10 2014 06:16 Boucot wrote: I was hoping that TaeJa would reconsider his retirement thing, I'm disappointed. I mean, he's only 19 years old. And we'll lose Polt and Bomber next year too because of the military, that's sad.
its more of a health issue for taeja, his wrists are really bad, when he streamed, he would stretch after everygame. he even had to take a break during ATC finals which shows how severe it is.
On September 10 2014 06:16 Boucot wrote: I was hoping that TaeJa would reconsider his retirement thing, I'm disappointed. I mean, he's only 19 years old. And we'll lose Polt and Bomber next year too because of the military, that's sad.
its more of a health issue for taeja, his wrists are really bad, when he streamed, he would stretch after everygame. he even had to take a break during ATC finals which shows how severe it is.
I hope he can win Blizzcon and buy new wrists from the money. Stay away SoS !
On September 10 2014 06:16 Boucot wrote: I was hoping that TaeJa would reconsider his retirement thing, I'm disappointed. I mean, he's only 19 years old. And we'll lose Polt and Bomber next year too because of the military, that's sad.
His wrists will never recover as long as he plays as much as he has to, in order to be relevant at the pro level. It could easily become chronic. Retirement is the only sensible option at this point. I said in late 2013 that Taeja might have a year left in him, I feel pretty confident about that prediction still.
On September 10 2014 06:09 Grumbels wrote: I don't believe Catz when he says that the difference between Koreans and foreigners is small. Haven't we gone over this argument often enough? The foreign scene largely consists of people that play part-time. Every single Korean pro is favored against every single foreigner with like five exceptions.
thats exactly what hes saying tho? you cant go into progaming as easily as a NA starcraft player compared to KR, its just a different world and a different culture
i see people mocking NA pros as being lazy or stupid or deserving scorn because they dont want to commit to 16hr/day practice and learning to speak korean. i dont think its a bad thing that WCS AM/EU could potentially become more inviting for people who want to compete among the best in their regions but don't want to have to tank their social and academic lives to do so. as long as blizzard makes appropriate changes with regard to WCS points and prizemoney i think its good for fans
That's fine, but it's known as college sports, not professional sports.
I don't think you guys really can tell who's playing if you yourself are observing the replay in the SC2 game client. It's the casters, especially Tastosis, who are so good at hyping up the hardest tournament on earth (which it is), and so they always praise the GSL players and their plays. If someone were to give you a random game from the previous WCS randomly from AM, EU, KR region, I doubt you will be able to tell what region it's from.
On September 10 2014 06:32 BakedButters wrote: I don't think you guys really can tell who's playing if you yourself are observing the replay in the SC2 game client. It's the casters, especially Tastosis, who are so good at hyping up the hardest tournament on earth (which it is), and so they always praise the GSL players and their plays. If someone were to give you a random game from the previous WCS randomly from AM, EU, KR region, I doubt you will be able to tell what region it's from.
I think if shown a random game with names hidden yea it'd be so hard to tell (could just be Flash on a bad day or Neeb on a good day?), but overall across the span of many games (like a whole WCS AM season vs a whole GSL season) the difference would be very noticeable.
On September 10 2014 06:32 BakedButters wrote: I don't think you guys really can tell who's playing if you yourself are observing the replay in the SC2 game client. It's the casters, especially Tastosis, who are so good at hyping up the hardest tournament on earth (which it is), and so they always praise the GSL players and their plays. If someone were to give you a random game from the previous WCS randomly from AM, EU, KR region, I doubt you will be able to tell what region it's from.
I think if shown a random game with names hidden yea it'd be so hard to tell (could just be Flash on a bad day or Neeb on a good day?), but overall across the span of many games (like a whole WCS AM season vs a whole GSL season) the difference would be very noticeable.
Or MC/Polt/Violet/First/Yoda/Stardust/Jjakji/Bomber/Oz/Alicia/San etc. With all the Koreans there is no way to tell, but I dare anyone to watch the Kas vs Vortix games from WCS EU Ro32 and tell me it can be mistaken for tip top Korean play.
Also, WCS EU having subpar play(ers) is why I'm not interested in it despite it having better time zones for me than GSL, which I do catch whenever I can. Or rather, it's not just that the players aren't as good, it's that the games are often barely relevant to anything because they're played by people that don't take progaming seriously. I don't mind watching TLO or Snute (well, outside of swarm hosts) play because they practice a lot, but there are enough pros in even the WCS EU premier league that just coast and practice only enough to stay in premier.
On September 10 2014 06:01 Nebuchad wrote: Catz: "I call bullcrap on people whose argument is "I want to see the best game of SC2 possible and I can tell the difference between top foreign play and Korean play" because I'm almost certain they can't."
This is a dishonest way to state this, because the top foreigner players are already getting screen time in the current system. The people we will get to see more as a result of the change is people who are a level below that, and yeah I can certainly see the difference between those people and average koreans (or even top foreigners).
Catz has really no idea what he is talking about. On top of what you already mentioned, it's not even the point that people can't tell the difference. But rather what people wanna see is the players whom they perceive to be the best player. For instance, I am interested in watching boxing matches between the two best players in the world, but I could not care less about the two best players in Austria (or w/e random country) battle it out even if I cannot tell the difference (because I don't understand boxing).
The exact same concept applies here, and I think eveyrone is completely missing the implications for what would occur if all koreans went back to Korea: The effect is more people like Livezerg, Miniraiser, Hanfy, Slivko, Gunfungbda, Hope, Blysk and Bails (those are the foreigners that according to Aligulac could replace the Koreans) Viewer numbers are going to drop significant in the group stages if games with those players replace JJaki, MMA, Polt, Violet, Taeja and San.
Overall, EU can handle this better than NA (viewership wise) because it has a higher level of players, but NA viewer numbers will take a significant hit backwards if fewer Koreans stay in the region.
Rifkin on Remax mentioned that "who's the best European" had better viewership number than "thebigone", however that's pretty obvious. The bigone consisted of 90% of koreans that we already saw in NA/EU + 1-2 "medicore" Kespa players/Supernova.
That's not comparable at all to what happens in WCS EU/WCS NA, where koreans are still in the minority. If these visa requirements came as a result of 25+/32 players in the region being Koreans it would be understandable, however, that's not the case here. Rather I believe we have an approprirate mix of Koreans agaisnt the best foreigners which makes it pretty interesting to watch and follow.
On September 10 2014 06:09 Grumbels wrote: I don't believe Catz when he says that the difference between Koreans and foreigners is small. Haven't we gone over this argument often enough? The foreign scene largely consists of people that play part-time. Every single Korean pro is favored against every single foreigner with like five exceptions.
thats exactly what hes saying tho? you cant go into progaming as easily as a NA starcraft player compared to KR, its just a different world and a different culture
i see people mocking NA pros as being lazy or stupid or deserving scorn because they dont want to commit to 16hr/day practice and learning to speak korean. i dont think its a bad thing that WCS AM/EU could potentially become more inviting for people who want to compete among the best in their regions but don't want to have to tank their social and academic lives to do so. as long as blizzard makes appropriate changes with regard to WCS points and prizemoney i think its good for fans
That's fine, but it's known as college sports, not professional sports.
? the more appropriate analogue would be minor league sports, which are professional... if youre on a team and making money for it youre pro by definition o_O (edit: well i guess the definition is if its your primary source of income and you live off it, otherwise youre "semipro"? but thats semantics) dunno bout where youre from but in the usa and canada people go to see alternate league/minor league sports all the time as a cheaper and more relaxed alternative
are you going to tell me the barber down the street isnt a professional because hes not styling celebrities hair for $500 a pop?
That is so fucking "Taeja" of him to have an epic interview response for the first time ever just months before retiring. (Before Innovation Taeja was the guy people bugged about boring interviews.") Good for him tho, and thanks TL for the content.
Taeja laying down the smack. What a time for him to retire, too. Fans want to see him in GSL, Code S players want to play him in GSL, Blizzard implements a region lock that basically forces him to play in GSL, and he fucking retires.
Would like to hear the opinions of the koreans who are mid-tier even in wcs am (the top ones could compete in gsl, I guess) They must be massively pissed
On September 10 2014 05:50 sharkie wrote: pretty much no pro cried about the "horrible" region lock ^^
This might be because very few of the players interviewed are going to be hurt by this change. Do you think Kane, TLO or Bunny will be upset? Do you think soO will care about four more players he can stomp all over in GSL? Of course not.
funny that soO's opinion as the best GSL player this year is that GSL isn't that much harder than WCS AM or EU, well maybe he's just saying that for the fans D:
On September 10 2014 06:16 Boucot wrote: I was hoping that TaeJa would reconsider his retirement thing, I'm disappointed. I mean, he's only 19 years old. And we'll lose Polt and Bomber next year too because of the military, that's sad.
its more of a health issue for taeja, his wrists are really bad, when he streamed, he would stretch after everygame. he even had to take a break during ATC finals which shows how severe it is.
I hope he can win Blizzcon and buy new wrists from the money. Stay away SoS !
On September 10 2014 05:50 sharkie wrote: pretty much no pro cried about the "horrible" region lock ^^
This might be because very few of the players interviewed are going to be hurt by this change. Do you think Kane, TLO or Bunny will be upset? Do you think soO will care about four more players he can stomp all over in GSL? Of course not.
That's what I was thinking. It would be interesting what the Axiom players like Heart would say or HerO or Revival.
On September 10 2014 06:09 Grumbels wrote: I don't believe Catz when he says that the difference between Koreans and foreigners is small. Haven't we gone over this argument often enough? The foreign scene largely consists of people that play part-time. Every single Korean pro is favored against every single foreigner with like five exceptions.
thats exactly what hes saying tho? you cant go into progaming as easily as a NA starcraft player compared to KR, its just a different world and a different culture
i see people mocking NA pros as being lazy or stupid or deserving scorn because they dont want to commit to 16hr/day practice and learning to speak korean. i dont think its a bad thing that WCS AM/EU could potentially become more inviting for people who want to compete among the best in their regions but don't want to have to tank their social and academic lives to do so. as long as blizzard makes appropriate changes with regard to WCS points and prizemoney i think its good for fans
That's fine, but it's known as college sports, not professional sports.
? the more appropriate analogue would be minor league sports, which are professional... if youre on a team and making money for it youre pro by definition o_O (edit: well i guess the definition is if its your primary source of income and you live off it, otherwise youre "semipro"? but thats semantics) dunno bout where youre from but in the usa and canada people go to see alternate league/minor league sports all the time as a cheaper and more relaxed alternative
are you going to tell me the barber down the street isnt a professional because hes not styling celebrities hair for $500 a pop?
Suppy isn't a professional player in the same sense as a Korean living in a team house practicing 12 hours a day. Even if EG pays him.
And people that don't prioritize their other activities are always going to dominate, that's just a fact. I don't see how you can get around it to get your desired state of amateur players dominating. That's only going to happen if the prize pool goes way down.
On September 10 2014 06:16 Boucot wrote: I was hoping that TaeJa would reconsider his retirement thing, I'm disappointed. I mean, he's only 19 years old. And we'll lose Polt and Bomber next year too because of the military, that's sad.
its more of a health issue for taeja, his wrists are really bad, when he streamed, he would stretch after everygame. he even had to take a break during ATC finals which shows how severe it is.
I hope he can win Blizzcon and buy new wrists from the money. Stay away SoS !
On September 10 2014 06:16 Boucot wrote: I was hoping that TaeJa would reconsider his retirement thing, I'm disappointed. I mean, he's only 19 years old. And we'll lose Polt and Bomber next year too because of the military, that's sad.
its more of a health issue for taeja, his wrists are really bad, when he streamed, he would stretch after everygame. he even had to take a break during ATC finals which shows how severe it is.
I hope he can win Blizzcon and buy new wrists from the money. Stay away SoS !
On September 10 2014 06:09 Grumbels wrote: I don't believe Catz when he says that the difference between Koreans and foreigners is small. Haven't we gone over this argument often enough? The foreign scene largely consists of people that play part-time. Every single Korean pro is favored against every single foreigner with like five exceptions.
thats exactly what hes saying tho? you cant go into progaming as easily as a NA starcraft player compared to KR, its just a different world and a different culture
i see people mocking NA pros as being lazy or stupid or deserving scorn because they dont want to commit to 16hr/day practice and learning to speak korean. i dont think its a bad thing that WCS AM/EU could potentially become more inviting for people who want to compete among the best in their regions but don't want to have to tank their social and academic lives to do so. as long as blizzard makes appropriate changes with regard to WCS points and prizemoney i think its good for fans
That's fine, but it's known as college sports, not professional sports.
? the more appropriate analogue would be minor league sports, which are professional... if youre on a team and making money for it youre pro by definition o_O (edit: well i guess the definition is if its your primary source of income and you live off it, otherwise youre "semipro"? but thats semantics) dunno bout where youre from but in the usa and canada people go to see alternate league/minor league sports all the time as a cheaper and more relaxed alternative
are you going to tell me the barber down the street isnt a professional because hes not styling celebrities hair for $500 a pop?
Suppy isn't a professional player in the same sense as a Korean living in a team house practicing 12 hours a day. Even if EG pays him.
And people that don't prioritize their other activities are always going to dominate, that's just a fact. I don't see how you can get around it to get your desired state of amateur players dominating. That's only going to happen if the prize pool goes way down.
are you replying to the correct post? i never said anything about amateur players dominating. in fact i actually mentioned lowering the WCS AM/EU prizepools before you did
i never said "people who practice less should win more/get more money" or anything even close to that. i just think having an official blizzard sanctioned and run league where local pro players can compete against their region, still make money and still win championships is cool in theory?? like i even said in my first post "as long as blizzard reduces the WCS/$ for nonkorean regions"
your definition of the "sense" of a professional doesnt mean anything, if youre playing for money and living off your gaming career youre a progamer
On September 10 2014 06:09 Grumbels wrote: I don't believe Catz when he says that the difference between Koreans and foreigners is small. Haven't we gone over this argument often enough? The foreign scene largely consists of people that play part-time. Every single Korean pro is favored against every single foreigner with like five exceptions.
thats exactly what hes saying tho? you cant go into progaming as easily as a NA starcraft player compared to KR, its just a different world and a different culture
i see people mocking NA pros as being lazy or stupid or deserving scorn because they dont want to commit to 16hr/day practice and learning to speak korean. i dont think its a bad thing that WCS AM/EU could potentially become more inviting for people who want to compete among the best in their regions but don't want to have to tank their social and academic lives to do so. as long as blizzard makes appropriate changes with regard to WCS points and prizemoney i think its good for fans
That's fine, but it's known as college sports, not professional sports.
? the more appropriate analogue would be minor league sports, which are professional... if youre on a team and making money for it youre pro by definition o_O (edit: well i guess the definition is if its your primary source of income and you live off it, otherwise youre "semipro"? but thats semantics) dunno bout where youre from but in the usa and canada people go to see alternate league/minor league sports all the time as a cheaper and more relaxed alternative
are you going to tell me the barber down the street isnt a professional because hes not styling celebrities hair for $500 a pop?
Suppy isn't a professional player in the same sense as a Korean living in a team house practicing 12 hours a day. Even if EG pays him.
And people that don't prioritize their other activities are always going to dominate, that's just a fact. I don't see how you can get around it to get your desired state of amateur players dominating. That's only going to happen if the prize pool goes way down.
are you replying to the correct post? i never said anything about amateur players dominating. in fact i actually mentioned lowering the WCS AM/EU prizepools before you did
i never said "people who practice less should win more/get more money" or anything even close to that. i just think having an official blizzard sanctioned and run league where local pro players can compete against their region, still make money and still win championships is cool in theory?? like i even said in my first post "as long as blizzard reduces the WCS/$ for nonkorean regions"
your definition of the "sense" of a professional doesnt mean anything, if youre playing for money and living off your gaming career youre a progamer
No, you said people that WCS AM catering to part-time players would be great.
On September 10 2014 06:09 Grumbels wrote: I don't believe Catz when he says that the difference between Koreans and foreigners is small. Haven't we gone over this argument often enough? The foreign scene largely consists of people that play part-time. Every single Korean pro is favored against every single foreigner with like five exceptions.
thats exactly what hes saying tho? you cant go into progaming as easily as a NA starcraft player compared to KR, its just a different world and a different culture
i see people mocking NA pros as being lazy or stupid or deserving scorn because they dont want to commit to 16hr/day practice and learning to speak korean. i dont think its a bad thing that WCS AM/EU could potentially become more inviting for people who want to compete among the best in their regions but don't want to have to tank their social and academic lives to do so. as long as blizzard makes appropriate changes with regard to WCS points and prizemoney i think its good for fans
That's fine, but it's known as college sports, not professional sports.
? the more appropriate analogue would be minor league sports, which are professional... if youre on a team and making money for it youre pro by definition o_O (edit: well i guess the definition is if its your primary source of income and you live off it, otherwise youre "semipro"? but thats semantics) dunno bout where youre from but in the usa and canada people go to see alternate league/minor league sports all the time as a cheaper and more relaxed alternative
are you going to tell me the barber down the street isnt a professional because hes not styling celebrities hair for $500 a pop?
Suppy isn't a professional player in the same sense as a Korean living in a team house practicing 12 hours a day. Even if EG pays him.
And people that don't prioritize their other activities are always going to dominate, that's just a fact. I don't see how you can get around it to get your desired state of amateur players dominating. That's only going to happen if the prize pool goes way down.
are you replying to the correct post? i never said anything about amateur players dominating. in fact i actually mentioned lowering the WCS AM/EU prizepools before you did
i never said "people who practice less should win more/get more money" or anything even close to that. i just think having an official blizzard sanctioned and run league where local pro players can compete against their region, still make money and still win championships is cool in theory?? like i even said in my first post "as long as blizzard reduces the WCS/$ for nonkorean regions"
your definition of the "sense" of a professional doesnt mean anything, if youre playing for money and living off your gaming career youre a progamer
No, you said people that WCS AM catering to part-time players would be great.
lol ok dude. youre arguing with what you want me to think instead of anything i really said, so no point to this
On September 10 2014 06:09 Grumbels wrote: I don't believe Catz when he says that the difference between Koreans and foreigners is small. Haven't we gone over this argument often enough? The foreign scene largely consists of people that play part-time. Every single Korean pro is favored against every single foreigner with like five exceptions.
thats exactly what hes saying tho? you cant go into progaming as easily as a NA starcraft player compared to KR, its just a different world and a different culture
i see people mocking NA pros as being lazy or stupid or deserving scorn because they dont want to commit to 16hr/day practice and learning to speak korean. i dont think its a bad thing that WCS AM/EU could potentially become more inviting for people who want to compete among the best in their regions but don't want to have to tank their social and academic lives to do so. as long as blizzard makes appropriate changes with regard to WCS points and prizemoney i think its good for fans
That's fine, but it's known as college sports, not professional sports.
? the more appropriate analogue would be minor league sports, which are professional... if youre on a team and making money for it youre pro by definition o_O (edit: well i guess the definition is if its your primary source of income and you live off it, otherwise youre "semipro"? but thats semantics) dunno bout where youre from but in the usa and canada people go to see alternate league/minor league sports all the time as a cheaper and more relaxed alternative
are you going to tell me the barber down the street isnt a professional because hes not styling celebrities hair for $500 a pop?
Suppy isn't a professional player in the same sense as a Korean living in a team house practicing 12 hours a day. Even if EG pays him.
And people that don't prioritize their other activities are always going to dominate, that's just a fact. I don't see how you can get around it to get your desired state of amateur players dominating. That's only going to happen if the prize pool goes way down.
are you replying to the correct post? i never said anything about amateur players dominating. in fact i actually mentioned lowering the WCS AM/EU prizepools before you did
i never said "people who practice less should win more/get more money" or anything even close to that. i just think having an official blizzard sanctioned and run league where local pro players can compete against their region, still make money and still win championships is cool in theory?? like i even said in my first post "as long as blizzard reduces the WCS/$ for nonkorean regions"
your definition of the "sense" of a professional doesnt mean anything, if youre playing for money and living off your gaming career youre a progamer
No, you said people that WCS AM catering to part-time players would be great.
lol ok dude. youre arguing with what you want me to think instead of anything i really said, so no point to this
I'll quote it for you:
"i dont think its a bad thing that WCS AM/EU could potentially become more inviting for people who want to compete among the best in their regions but don't want to have to tank their social and academic lives to do so"
This statement is all I replied to, instead you've spent your last few posts making passive-aggressive remarks at me.
On September 10 2014 05:50 sharkie wrote: pretty much no pro cried about the "horrible" region lock ^^
This might be because very few of the players interviewed are going to be hurt by this change. Do you think Kane, TLO or Bunny will be upset? Do you think soO will care about four more players he can stomp all over in GSL? Of course not.
That's what I was thinking. It would be interesting what the Axiom players like Heart would say or HerO or Revival.
Personally I think HerO will be fine in KR. He might be borderline Code S but if he's in a house with his proleague involvement it's just a little less easy money for him, he still has weekend tournaments.
On September 10 2014 06:45 Heyoka wrote: I agree with Scarlett's assessment.
You should have seen Wax raging on Twitter for not getting replies fast enough. These articles require way too much paitence xD
It's a shame more don't give proper responses. It's good for them to voice their opinions on such matters, fans like to read about it, and it doesn't exactly take much effort. Win win.
<3 TLO I knew he'd be on the logical side of things.
Catz and Huk are both full of shit as I figured they would be. They benefit from these changes and are doing everything they can to make it sound as though we should be supportive of that. They don't care about the scene anymore than any of the rest of us do, they're just picking the side that has a better chance of rewarding them money. Which makes sense in its own way.
I for one can definitely tell the difference between Foreigner and Korean level play, hell I can even tell the difference between European and North American play styles. Anyone that follows the scene closely enough can.
To piG's point on players playing on local ladders. That's actually why the Koreans are even choosing to play predominantly in North America as it is.
North America to Korea latency isn't that bad, most North American pros I know practice a ton on the Korean ladder because they find it's more helpful to them to play there instead of on the North American ladder. Koreans living in Korea choose to play and win in the North American qualifiers because the latency is low enough they don't suffer for it.
Europe on the other hand has an insane latency between it and Korea which is why Koreans have never been able to dominate that region quite like they have in North America.
This region lock doesn't change any of that from WCS America's perspective. Any North American player, Korean or otherwise is still going to get a lot of their practice in on the Korean server, it's simply not competitive to only practice on the NA ladder when the Korean ladder is available. Comparing NA to EU in this regard is simply not feasible.
On September 10 2014 06:45 Heyoka wrote: I agree with Scarlett's assessment.
You should have seen Wax raging on Twitter for not getting replies fast enough. These articles require way too much paitence xD
It's a shame more don't give proper responses. It's good for them to voice their opinions on such matters, fans like to read about it, and it doesn't exactly take much effort. Win win.
it's pretty fair if it takes me forever to get the article up :D
If you think about it, if there are 0 Koreans in the NA region, the 3 NA champions (maybe even 1 or 2 if Scarlet wins more than once) will basically be guaranteed a spot at Blizzcon. It'll force more Koreans to go to international tournaments where they'll dominate foreigners so that they don't even get any points for playing (everyone gets destroyed before ro16). Yes, there will be 3 people from NA at Blizzcon, but I highly doubt they'll even win a game.
Oh, and about not being able to tell the difference between foreigners playing and Koreans playing, I think it'd be pretty easy to tell if you look at their play style. An example would be HerO multi tasking. You don't see any foreigners pulling that stuff out. You won't see the insane marine splitting against zerg or late game ability against a Protoss with foreign Terran players. Foreigners typically don't have the macro to keep up with Koreans imo. And you won't see awesome tricks like this:
On September 10 2014 05:50 sharkie wrote: pretty much no pro cried about the "horrible" region lock ^^
This might be because very few of the players interviewed are going to be hurt by this change. Do you think Kane, TLO or Bunny will be upset? Do you think soO will care about four more players he can stomp all over in GSL? Of course not.
This. Both this time and when the Acer article came out I was hoping to get the mid-tier/Code A players reactions. Foreigners will be obviously happy that their region can possibly develop better, and top-tier Koreans don't care if more mid-tier Koreans join the party...they will slay them just as the rest of Code A.
But I understand getting answers from Koreans in general is hard so good job as usual TL
On September 10 2014 05:50 sharkie wrote: pretty much no pro cried about the "horrible" region lock ^^
This might be because very few of the players interviewed are going to be hurt by this change. Do you think Kane, TLO or Bunny will be upset? Do you think soO will care about four more players he can stomp all over in GSL? Of course not.
It's more players that can potentially give him more second place finishes :D.
Allow me to explain: a lot of Koreans in Taiwan are capable of applying for visitor visas to compete in the TeSL circuit, but they are not capable of applying for resident visas to compete in the TeSL circuit. What is the difference?
In 2014, if a non-Taiwanese player wanted to compete in the WCS 2014 Taiwan / Hong Kong / Macao qualifiers, they would have to have a resident visa. And before anyone says anything about Sase, I must tell you all he was living a visa-free existence in Taiwan by leaving this country once every 90 days.
The players who are not a citizen of Taiwan, Hong Kong or Macau must send a scanned copy of their Residency Visa to tw-tournaments@blizzard.com for an evaluation of the residency status.
Unfortunately, the government of Taiwan does not recognize any form of eSports as legitimate enough to grant resident visas. Blizzard Taiwan explicitly stated that if a player wanted to compete in WCS Taiwan / Hong Kong / Macao qualifiers, the said player would have to have a resident visa to be eligible. So, I am an English teacher in Taiwan and I now hold a resident visa. That means I can enter the WCS America: Taiwan / Macao / Hong Kong qualifiers when they happen for next year.
And find no recourse in China either. I have asked Netease if it would be possible for even a Canadian-born Chinese player with Chinese Permanent Residence (aka equivalent to Chinese green card) to compete in that region, and they said no. Bottom line? Citizenship requirement for mainland China, and Legitimate Raison d'etre in Taiwan.
I'm glad that several of the players have brought up certain things that the community (and apparently some teams, tournaments) often overlook - the legalities of the profession. Things like taking taxes into consideration with prize pools, highlighting the requirements for visas (look, technically pros are working at tournaments - this requires them to have certain visas from the country in which the tournament takes place according to the local immigration laws) - these are areas where the entire community needs to tighten up as it becomes more visible and regulatory bodies become more interested.
Loved the #nofilter Taeja. Catz and TLO with some excellent thoughts as well. And Soojwa seems to be alone in equating the regions - although Catz makes good points.
soO said it well - all WCS can have the same amount of points, win is a win, but the conditions should be also the same, meaning more tournaments in Korea (and maybe points from Proleague). That would really help the situation.
On September 10 2014 09:11 Starecat wrote: Gosh a lot of top KeSPA players want a piece of Taeja o.o
Btw it would be awesome if he return after the military service.
Relatively rare for players to come back from military service and attain the same level of success - even back when Airforce Ace existed for pretty much that purpose.
Europe on the other hand has an insane latency between it and Korea which is why Koreans have never been able to dominate that region quite like they have in North America.
I think it's pretty easy to tell the skill difference between Koreans and foreigners, maybe with exception of very top tier foreigners like snute and scarlett.
On September 10 2014 09:19 ETisME wrote: I think it's pretty easy to tell the skill difference between Koreans and foreigners, maybe with exception of very top tier foreigners like snute and scarlett.
for most top players it's pretty easy to say who's playing in some match ups, a lot of them have their own style(who would confuse a ZvP with Solar/MC and one with Snute/Rain...).
But ofc Avilo and FlaSh both mech the same way according to Catz (who's maybe a professional entertainer but i doubt he lives with the money his skill brings)
On September 10 2014 09:19 ETisME wrote: I think it's pretty easy to tell the skill difference between Koreans and foreigners, maybe with exception of very top tier foreigners like snute and scarlett.
for most top players it's pretty easy to say who's playing in some match ups, a lot of them have their own style(who would confuse a ZvP with Solar/MC and one with Snute/Rain...).
But ofc Avilo and FlaSh both mech the same way according to Catz (who's maybe a professional entertainer but i doubt he lives with the money his skill brings)
On September 10 2014 09:19 ETisME wrote: I think it's pretty easy to tell the skill difference between Koreans and foreigners, maybe with exception of very top tier foreigners like snute and scarlett.
for most top players it's pretty easy to say who's playing in some match ups, a lot of them have their own style(who would confuse a ZvP with Solar/MC and one with Snute/Rain...).
But ofc Avilo and FlaSh both mech the same way according to Catz (who's maybe a professional entertainer but i doubt he lives with the money his skill brings)
is this a real quote?
no just what you could put in Catz mouth if you wanted to ridicule him :D. (even between FlaSh and Happy the style is soooooo different tbh that if you know about it you can't confuse them)
On September 10 2014 08:49 BreAKerTV wrote: The part about the Koreans in Taiwan is B.S.
Allow me to explain: a lot of Koreans in Taiwan are capable of applying for visitor visas to compete in the TeSL circuit, but they are not capable of applying for resident visas to compete in the TeSL circuit. What is the difference?
In 2014, if a non-Taiwanese player wanted to compete in the WCS 2014 Taiwan / Hong Kong / Macao qualifiers, they would have to have a resident visa. And before anyone says anything about Sase, I must tell you all he was living a visa-free existence in Taiwan by leaving this country once every 90 days.
The players who are not a citizen of Taiwan, Hong Kong or Macau must send a scanned copy of their Residency Visa to tw-tournaments@blizzard.com for an evaluation of the residency status.
Unfortunately, the government of Taiwan does not recognize any form of eSports as legitimate enough to grant resident visas. Blizzard Taiwan explicitly stated that if a player wanted to compete in WCS Taiwan / Hong Kong / Macao qualifiers, the said player would have to have a resident visa to be eligible. So, I am an English teacher in Taiwan and I now hold a resident visa. That means I can enter the WCS America: Taiwan / Macao / Hong Kong qualifiers when they happen for next year.
And find no recourse in China either. I have asked Netease if it would be possible for even a Canadian-born Chinese player with Chinese Permanent Residence (aka equivalent to Chinese green card) to compete in that region, and they said no. Bottom line? Citizenship requirement for mainland China, and Legitimate Raison d'etre in Taiwan.
Good to know what the current policy is, since it will probably at least be that strict going forward. Are you sure it's that impossible for Koreans to get that kind of visa?
On September 10 2014 09:19 ETisME wrote: I think it's pretty easy to tell the skill difference between Koreans and foreigners, maybe with exception of very top tier foreigners like snute and scarlett.
for most top players it's pretty easy to say who's playing in some match ups, a lot of them have their own style(who would confuse a ZvP with Solar/MC and one with Snute/Rain...).
But ofc Avilo and FlaSh both mech the same way according to Catz (who's maybe a professional entertainer but i doubt he lives with the money his skill brings)
You're missing the point, I could show you a match between a top forgeiner and a top korean with the names blacked out, tell you its both koreans, and I much doubt you'd be able to refute it unless I told you this beforehand. Good point you make, I am a professional entretainer, and yet I play many top level koreans like soO, PartinG, Solar, DRG, and I take games from them more often than you'd think, I also play on the KR GM ladder, and I know I beat KeSPA / Code S pros fairly often, Does this mean I'll win a tournament? no, does it mean im favored against these players in a BO3 or BO5 ? hell no, but the gap really isn't as big as people think, if that's me - as an entretainer, you can likely imagine the gap between good forgeiners and koreans is even smaller. The point I'm making is, if you watched me beating soO in a macro game with the names blacked out and I told you it wasn't me but instead some other korean, I doubt you'd be able to tell the difference in a casted match.
I am not looking to offend anyone's knowledge, I know I'd struggle telling them appart myself, at the top level there's always gonna be brilliant plays, there's always going to be big blunders. Koreans are better than forgeiners on average, without a shadow of a doubt, but the point I am making is, it's all in tiny details, more often than not mechanical that you would likely not notice in a casted game, if flash keeps his minerals bellow 100 and bunny keeps it bellow 150, that could be the difference between a win and a lose, ONE extra unit will make a giant difference in a big engagement and completely turn it around, I am saying that if Flash would have 150 vs soO's 150 supply and Bunny had 148 supply vs Snute's 148 supply in a game where nothing else happens on the same map in parallel worlds, you would not be able to tell and be like WAIT THAT'S NOT FLASH THAT'S BUNNY! without examining the replay or knowing either playstyle well enough to identify them for that. I am not arguing you couldn't tell the difference between players because of playstyle, you could tell the difference between almost any 2 players if you know their playstyle well, that's far from the point I am trying to make.
Euhm. Aren't all foreigner leagues dominated by non-top tier Koreans? Isn't that irrefutable evidence that the skill-gap is not "a lot closer then we'd think"?
Which of us is wrong here because afaik the above is common knowledge, apart from the shining talents that EU/NA have to offer, which number in the few.
On September 10 2014 09:19 ETisME wrote: I think it's pretty easy to tell the skill difference between Koreans and foreigners, maybe with exception of very top tier foreigners like snute and scarlett.
for most top players it's pretty easy to say who's playing in some match ups, a lot of them have their own style(who would confuse a ZvP with Solar/MC and one with Snute/Rain...).
But ofc Avilo and FlaSh both mech the same way according to Catz (who's maybe a professional entertainer but i doubt he lives with the money his skill brings)
You're missing the point, I could show you a match between a top forgeiner and a top korean with the names blacked out, tell you its both koreans, and I much doubt you'd be able to refute it unless I told you this beforehand. Good point you make, I am a professional entretainer, and yet I play many top level koreans like soO, PartinG, Solar, DRG, and I take games from them more often than you'd think, I also play on the KR GM ladder, and I know I beat KeSPA / Code S pros fairly often, Does this mean I'll win a tournament? no, does it mean im favored against these players in a BO3 or BO5 ? hell no, but the gap really isn't as big as people think, if that's me - as an entretainer, you can likely imagine the gap between good forgeiners and koreans is even smaller. The point I'm making is, if you watched me beating soO in a macro game with the names blacked out and I told you it wasn't me but instead some other korean, I doubt you'd be able to tell the difference in a casted match.
I am not looking to offend anyone's knowledge, I know I'd struggle telling them appart myself, at the top level there's always gonna be brilliant plays, there's always going to be big blunders. Koreans are better than forgeiners on average, without a shadow of a doubt, but the point I am making is, it's all in tiny details, more often than not mechanical that you would likely not notice in a casted game, if flash keeps his minerals bellow 100 and bunny keeps it bellow 150, that could be the difference between a win and a lose, ONE extra unit will make a giant difference in a big engagement and completely turn it around, I am saying that if Flash would have 150 vs soO's 150 supply and Bunny had 148 supply vs Snute's 148 supply in a game where nothing else happens on the same map in parallel worlds, you would not be able to tell and be like WAIT THAT'S NOT FLASH THAT'S BUNNY! without examining the replay or knowing either playstyle well enough to identify them for that. I am not arguing you couldn't tell the difference between players because of playstyle, you could tell the difference between almost any 2 players if you know their playstyle well, that's far from the point I am trying to make.
you make it like every top player plays the same while it's absolutely false. In the firsty 10min of a TvZ you can call if it's flash/polt/taeja/maru/bomber just by looking at the build/building and unit placement/use. Almost every top player is extremely stylistic (only a few are you standard kind of player, Cure/Taeja for T eg and still taeja has his own TvP). The fact most casters absolutely suck at highlighting this just annoys me but it doesn't mean you can't see it. And you underestimate the difference in unit control, it doesn't allow you to identify who's playing but i can tell you that some players have a way crisper unit control than others. (taeja ghost micro is so ridiculously good eg and there is no way to believe it's bunny playing).
You act like macroing is hard in sc2 while the truth is that it isn't. Macroing is easy and that's why you pick the only exemple where most top foreigners are close to koreans. The difference is mostly about unit control, multitask and decisions (don't tell me you can confuse a Maru multi pronged attack with a foreigner doing the same). The way Rain or MC are prepared vs T drops even with limited vision, i've yet to see it from a foreigner.
The point I'm making is, if you watched me beating soO in a macro game with the names blacked out and I told you it wasn't me but instead some other korean, I doubt you'd be able to tell the difference in a casted match.
If you were a top T playing vs soO i'd need less than 10 minutes to give you no more than 3names if it was a broadcasted match (ladders even top kr gm means shit except to predict who to watch in the next IEM qualifier in order to be super hipster). (and fuck those who play 100% standard making it very hard to recognize them :D)
Would like to hear what top foreigners have to say about the entire "impossible to tell the difference between Korean and foreigner" thing.
Destiny and Catz say a bunch of weird stuff and it's gotten them a lot of fans, but it has also made them lose a lot of credibility
If you mean to tell me that I can't tell the difference between Neeb vs Desrow and Flash vs Zest if the names were blurred out then I will simply take it as an insult.
I like Root.Catz's opinion because he at least takes a strong and potentially controversial stand that foreigners have the potential to be just as good as Koreans. If that is true, I will enjoy WCS America much more after region lock.
If that is true, why do almost all matches between Koreans and foreigners end up with the Koreans winning? Only the very rare foreigner like Snute or maybe Scarlett have actually beaten the Koreans in heads-up matches, and you almost never see the top Koreans like Zest, Rain, Maru, etc. get beat by foreigners.
On September 10 2014 09:19 ETisME wrote: I think it's pretty easy to tell the skill difference between Koreans and foreigners, maybe with exception of very top tier foreigners like snute and scarlett.
for most top players it's pretty easy to say who's playing in some match ups, a lot of them have their own style(who would confuse a ZvP with Solar/MC and one with Snute/Rain...).
But ofc Avilo and FlaSh both mech the same way according to Catz (who's maybe a professional entertainer but i doubt he lives with the money his skill brings)
You're missing the point, I could show you a match between a top forgeiner and a top korean with the names blacked out, tell you its both koreans, and I much doubt you'd be able to refute it unless I told you this beforehand. Good point you make, I am a professional entretainer, and yet I play many top level koreans like soO, PartinG, Solar, DRG, and I take games from them more often than you'd think, I also play on the KR GM ladder, and I know I beat KeSPA / Code S pros fairly often, Does this mean I'll win a tournament? no, does it mean im favored against these players in a BO3 or BO5 ? hell no, but the gap really isn't as big as people think, if that's me - as an entretainer, you can likely imagine the gap between good forgeiners and koreans is even smaller. The point I'm making is, if you watched me beating soO in a macro game with the names blacked out and I told you it wasn't me but instead some other korean, I doubt you'd be able to tell the difference in a casted match.
I am not looking to offend anyone's knowledge, I know I'd struggle telling them appart myself, at the top level there's always gonna be brilliant plays, there's always going to be big blunders. Koreans are better than forgeiners on average, without a shadow of a doubt, but the point I am making is, it's all in tiny details, more often than not mechanical that you would likely not notice in a casted game, if flash keeps his minerals bellow 100 and bunny keeps it bellow 150, that could be the difference between a win and a lose, ONE extra unit will make a giant difference in a big engagement and completely turn it around, I am saying that if Flash would have 150 vs soO's 150 supply and Bunny had 148 supply vs Snute's 148 supply in a game where nothing else happens on the same map in parallel worlds, you would not be able to tell and be like WAIT THAT'S NOT FLASH THAT'S BUNNY! without examining the replay or knowing either playstyle well enough to identify them for that. I am not arguing you couldn't tell the difference between players because of playstyle, you could tell the difference between almost any 2 players if you know their playstyle well, that's far from the point I am trying to make.
you make it like every top player plays the same while it's absolutely false. In the firsty 10min of a TvZ you can call if it's flash/polt/taeja/maru/bomber just by looking at the build/building and unit placement/use. Almost every top player is extremely stylistic (only a few are you standard kind of player, Cure/Taeja for T eg and still taeja has his own TvP). The fact most casters absolutely suck at highlighting this just annoys me but it doesn't mean you can't see it. And you underestimate the difference in unit control, it doesn't allow you to identify who's playing but i can tell you that some players have a way crisper unit control than others. (taeja ghost micro is so ridiculously good eg and there is no way to believe it's bunny playing).
You act like macroing is hard in sc2 while the truth is that it isn't. Macroing is easy and that's why you pick the only exemple where most top foreigners are close to koreans. The difference is mostly about unit control, multitask and decisions (don't tell me you can confuse a Maru multi pronged attack with a foreigner doing the same). The way Rain or MC are prepared vs T drops even with limited vision, i've yet to see it from a foreigner.
The point I'm making is, if you watched me beating soO in a macro game with the names blacked out and I told you it wasn't me but instead some other korean, I doubt you'd be able to tell the difference in a casted match.
If you were a top T playing vs soO i'd need less than 10 minutes to give you no more than 3names if it was a broadcasted match (ladders even top kr gm means shit except to predict who to watch in the next IEM qualifier in order to be super hipster). (and fuck those who play 100% standard making it very hard to recognize them :D)
You're completely missing the point I'm trying to make again, I am not talking about playstyle of course everyone has different playstyles, im merely pointing out the gap in skill isn't as big as people think, and a game between two top forgeiners can be just as exciting and interesting as two top koreans, I've repeated this about 20 times now, but I'm not talking about style, I dont doubt that if you're a Bomber fan you can likely tell its him playing much like if you're a TRUE fan you can definetly know its him playing, I'm not talking about individuals but rather regions as a whole, idc that people can identify their favorite players by play, I am merely debating people whose argument is "I don't want this because I want to see the best play possible and forgeiners are bad" kind of thing, not sure how that's hard to understand, sorry if I was confusing with my wording.
SKTsoO Well, for example we're in the situation where Classic, a champion of the toughest region, might not make it to Blizzcon this year. I don't think GSL is the hardest, I think it's all pretty similar. I think non-Korean wins should be recognized all the same.
am = eu = kr, confirmed by soojwa
The manner contrast between his answer and Taeja's is so fucking funny ^^
So essentially, foreigners will advance out of the regional tournaments, and then get rekt in the global championship series? Meh, seems like it's just delaying the inevitable. However, I do see some value in region locking so foreigners aren't so discouraged by the prospect of being immediately knocked out by super-start Korean players.
Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
On September 10 2014 09:19 ETisME wrote: I think it's pretty easy to tell the skill difference between Koreans and foreigners, maybe with exception of very top tier foreigners like snute and scarlett.
for most top players it's pretty easy to say who's playing in some match ups, a lot of them have their own style(who would confuse a ZvP with Solar/MC and one with Snute/Rain...).
But ofc Avilo and FlaSh both mech the same way according to Catz (who's maybe a professional entertainer but i doubt he lives with the money his skill brings)
You're missing the point, I could show you a match between a top forgeiner and a top korean with the names blacked out, tell you its both koreans, and I much doubt you'd be able to refute it unless I told you this beforehand. Good point you make, I am a professional entretainer, and yet I play many top level koreans like soO, PartinG, Solar, DRG, and I take games from them more often than you'd think, I also play on the KR GM ladder, and I know I beat KeSPA / Code S pros fairly often, Does this mean I'll win a tournament? no, does it mean im favored against these players in a BO3 or BO5 ? hell no, but the gap really isn't as big as people think, if that's me - as an entretainer, you can likely imagine the gap between good forgeiners and koreans is even smaller. The point I'm making is, if you watched me beating soO in a macro game with the names blacked out and I told you it wasn't me but instead some other korean, I doubt you'd be able to tell the difference in a casted match.
I am not looking to offend anyone's knowledge, I know I'd struggle telling them appart myself, at the top level there's always gonna be brilliant plays, there's always going to be big blunders. Koreans are better than forgeiners on average, without a shadow of a doubt, but the point I am making is, it's all in tiny details, more often than not mechanical that you would likely not notice in a casted game, if flash keeps his minerals bellow 100 and bunny keeps it bellow 150, that could be the difference between a win and a lose, ONE extra unit will make a giant difference in a big engagement and completely turn it around, I am saying that if Flash would have 150 vs soO's 150 supply and Bunny had 148 supply vs Snute's 148 supply in a game where nothing else happens on the same map in parallel worlds, you would not be able to tell and be like WAIT THAT'S NOT FLASH THAT'S BUNNY! without examining the replay or knowing either playstyle well enough to identify them for that. I am not arguing you couldn't tell the difference between players because of playstyle, you could tell the difference between almost any 2 players if you know their playstyle well, that's far from the point I am trying to make.
On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote:Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I think Catz and you have a point, but to that end, it's also rather sad that it is that hard to tell the play of a Code S Kespa player from an NA Master player for most people if it was a blind viewing. The game should make the best players obvious because they do things other players just can't do. Brood War had this just given the demands of the game. Many sports are the same way. If anything the above is an indictment of either the SC2 skill ceiling or how the demands of the game are portrayed (or not) to the viewers on the screen. I'm sure it's a bit of both.
On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote: Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point.
On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote: Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point.
On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote: Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1.
That's just BS.
I'm absolutely horrible at football but I have no problem telling apart MLS and EPL.
I'm sure you are not a professional hockey player, are you telling me you can't tell the difference between NHL and Czech Extraliga.
Most of the announcer even coach and manager for pro sports never played it at highest level, they might as well just all quit now since obviously they have no idea WTF they talking about.
Check vs HuK was pretty bad imo so in my opinion there is a quite large difference in overall skill vs mid-tier nonkoreans vs top koreans. You know it's bad when casters call a game "scrappy".
On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote: Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point.
Hey, could be soO vs Rain on a bad day.
you remember the gsl challenges thing where they played with gloves and had to blow up balloons ? maybe with that kind of handicap :D
The part I find slightly amusing is people seem to assume that when Koreans leave, NA will suddenly and miraculously have a robust scene where local players produce high level and interesting games.
Again, you're arguing as if this was trading Heart for Neeb. This isn't. This is keeping Neeb, which we already have, and trading Heart for someone whose name I don't know yet who made it to like Ro8 of the qualifiers this year. I'm sure it's hard to tell the difference between Heart and Neeb. Between Heart and that yet unnamed guy, I wouldn't make the same argument.
On September 10 2014 12:29 bo1b wrote: To all of you talking shit regarding catz opinion, did you see flash vs true, or drg vs soo g1 from the gsl group d recently?
DRG vs soO was an amazing display of decision making. And FlaSh vs TRUE was textbook map abuse in g1 and style abuser in g2 (TRUE always go for a heavy queen + speed ling play in TvZ, guess what's really good against it: hellbats). The fact you can't see the brillance in those 3 games just speak for yourself. (the 2rax was really really good)
On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote: Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
Ok how about we watch basketball, hockey, tennis, golf, etc etc with all the players keyed out and lets just watch the ball? Perception due to players and brands will always be part of the sports industry, on this earth, at least.
On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote:Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I think Catz and you have a point, but to that end, it's also rather sad that it is that hard to tell the play of a Code S Kespa player from an NA Master player for most people if it was a blind viewing. The game should make the best players obvious because they do things other players just can't do. Brood War had this just given the demands of the game. Many sports are the same way. If anything the above is an indictment of either the SC2 skill ceiling or how the demands of the game are portrayed (or not) to the viewers on the screen. I'm sure it's a bit of both.
This is in large part a fault of the casting of games more than anything. The best players in the world do things that lesser players do not, however, these small differences in play are often overlooked by casters and viewers alike. Why you ask? Because many of these minor nuances / efficiencies are elements of play that only high level players would notice. It's easy to point out blunders like mismicro and supply blocks, but it takes a high level player to point out more minor details in regards to build order, unit positioning, and various reactions to scouting information etc. Most viewers cannot notice these differences themselves, and unfortunately a lot of casters don't understand the game well enough to notice them either (and subsequently inform the viewers). It's for this precise reason I enjoy watching events like Homestory Cup so much. Insight into games from a pro-player perspective is far more interesting than listening to someone essentially reiterating what is happening on screen. Unfortunately, it seems like a lot of people would rather hear casters babble nonsensically about things unrelated to starcraft than listen to deeper analysis of the game (I'm looking at you Tasteless).
I call BS on Catz complaining about casters favoring Snute in RB - yeah they're obviously going to favor Snute because he's the better foreigner. And if it was soO doing 1 base muta it's a given that they'll hype it up instead of questioning it because, again, he's the better player.
A multiple-time 2nd place in GSL pulling off some quirky cheese vs a foreigner zerg is going to garner far more hype than if a relatively obscure foreigner zerg tries to pull it off...vs a superior zerg.
On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote: Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point.
That series was great, I am not sure I see the point. Oh wait, personal opinion, my bad.
On September 10 2014 09:19 ETisME wrote: I think it's pretty easy to tell the skill difference between Koreans and foreigners, maybe with exception of very top tier foreigners like snute and scarlett.
for most top players it's pretty easy to say who's playing in some match ups, a lot of them have their own style(who would confuse a ZvP with Solar/MC and one with Snute/Rain...).
But ofc Avilo and FlaSh both mech the same way according to Catz (who's maybe a professional entertainer but i doubt he lives with the money his skill brings)
You're missing the point, I could show you a match between a top forgeiner and a top korean with the names blacked out, tell you its both koreans, and I much doubt you'd be able to refute it unless I told you this beforehand. Good point you make, I am a professional entretainer, and yet I play many top level koreans like soO, PartinG, Solar, DRG, and I take games from them more often than you'd think, I also play on the KR GM ladder, and I know I beat KeSPA / Code S pros fairly often, Does this mean I'll win a tournament? no, does it mean im favored against these players in a BO3 or BO5 ? hell no, but the gap really isn't as big as people think, if that's me - as an entretainer, you can likely imagine the gap between good forgeiners and koreans is even smaller. The point I'm making is, if you watched me beating soO in a macro game with the names blacked out and I told you it wasn't me but instead some other korean, I doubt you'd be able to tell the difference in a casted match.
I am not looking to offend anyone's knowledge, I know I'd struggle telling them appart myself, at the top level there's always gonna be brilliant plays, there's always going to be big blunders. Koreans are better than forgeiners on average, without a shadow of a doubt, but the point I am making is, it's all in tiny details, more often than not mechanical that you would likely not notice in a casted game, if flash keeps his minerals bellow 100 and bunny keeps it bellow 150, that could be the difference between a win and a lose, ONE extra unit will make a giant difference in a big engagement and completely turn it around, I am saying that if Flash would have 150 vs soO's 150 supply and Bunny had 148 supply vs Snute's 148 supply in a game where nothing else happens on the same map in parallel worlds, you would not be able to tell and be like WAIT THAT'S NOT FLASH THAT'S BUNNY! without examining the replay or knowing either playstyle well enough to identify them for that. I am not arguing you couldn't tell the difference between players because of playstyle, you could tell the difference between almost any 2 players if you know their playstyle well, that's far from the point I am trying to make.
oh wow that was a huge circle you went around in
yeah sometimes I just start typing and follow my train of thought until I stop, I should read what I write more often to avoid redundance
On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote: Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point.
That series was great, I am not sure I see the point. Oh wait, personal opinion, my bad.
it was very entertaining but the skill level was shit. being slapped by kim didn't stop you to be an arrogant ass i see.
On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote: Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point.
That series was great, I am not sure I see the point. Oh wait, personal opinion, my bad.
it was very entertaining but the skill level was shit.
Well thank god the only reason these things are board cast is to entertain.
Technically they could just create a 4th WCS region, SEA+China+Taiwan. I'm sure a lot of the koreans would rather play there than in America, and the other countries involved wouldn't really complain as it still would mean more spots for them than what they are getting now.
On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote: Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point.
No, it isn't HuK just beat Check and he went 3-3 against him, Check is a former T8 player who did pretty well for himself at the highest level, and again I never claimed forgeiners are better or even as good as koreans. I could watch soO vs Flash from the other day and point out a ton of mistakes, no one can play perfect, HuK almost choked and had blunders on the last game, much like he played brilliant and outplayed his opponent completely the game just before that.
On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote: Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point.
That series was great, I am not sure I see the point. Oh wait, personal opinion, my bad.
it was very entertaining but the skill level was shit.
Well thank god the only reason these things are board cast is to entertain.
the discussion you just jumped in was about skill lvl M. know it all
might give more opportunity for foreigners but viewership might drop considerably, unless casters blow up the games shamelessly. I guess on the flip side, the reduced content I want to watch is less which is more manageable to me anyways. But it sucks it wont be live anymore seeing as most of the content is now concentrated in korea and maybe a little in EU.
On September 10 2014 12:36 Nebuchad wrote: Technically they could just create a 4th WCS region, SEA+China+Taiwan. I'm sure a lot of the koreans would rather play there than in America, and the other countries involved wouldn't really complain as it still would mean more spots for them than what they are getting now.
I'd totally be in favor of this actually. Why not have 4 regions?
On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote: Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point.
No, it isn't HuK just beat Check and he went 3-3 against him, Check is a former T8 player who did pretty well for himself at the highest level, and again I never claimed forgeiners are better or even as good as koreans. I could watch soO vs Flash from the other day and point out a ton of mistakes, no one can play perfect, HuK almost choked and had blunders on the last game, much like he played brilliant and outplayed his opponent completely the game just before that.
the last series was pure shit. Both of them play awfully and next year it'd have been consider as some good level starcraft in the NA scene.
On September 10 2014 12:36 Nebuchad wrote: Technically they could just create a 4th WCS region, SEA+China+Taiwan. I'm sure a lot of the koreans would rather play there than in America, and the other countries involved wouldn't really complain as it still would mean more spots for them than what they are getting now.
I'd totally be in favor of this actually. Why not have 4 regions?
On September 10 2014 12:38 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On September 10 2014 12:36 Nebuchad wrote: Technically they could just create a 4th WCS region, SEA+China+Taiwan. I'm sure a lot of the koreans would rather play there than in America, and the other countries involved wouldn't really complain as it still would mean more spots for them than what they are getting now.
I'd totally be in favor of this actually. Why not have 4 regions?
On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote: Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point.
That series was great, I am not sure I see the point. Oh wait, personal opinion, my bad.
it was very entertaining but the skill level was shit.
Well thank god the only reason these things are board cast is to entertain.
the discussion you just jumped in was about skill lvl M. know it all
Really, the discussion seemed to be about SC2 fans being snobs and only wanting "the best play" which is what they define it as, because even top Korean players throw games. Because thats what the originating post in the quote seems to be about.
Frankly I completely agree that a lot of SC2 players are snobs, claiming they only watch the best play. But if you took the names off and didn't tell them who was playing, they could tell a top level Korean for a top Non-Korean.
On September 10 2014 12:32 Gaskal wrote: I call BS on Catz complaining about casters favoring Snute in RB - yeah they're obviously going to favor Snute because he's the better foreigner. And if it was soO doing 1 base muta it's a given that they'll hype it up instead of questioning it because, again, he's the better player.
A multiple-time 2nd place in GSL pulling off some quirky cheese vs a foreigner zerg is going to garner far more hype than if a relatively obscure foreigner zerg tries to pull it off...vs a superior zerg.
Such a bullshit argument.
Sorry it wasn't much of a complain, was trying to highlight why some people watching might think they can tell the differences between forgeiners and koreans for example, its easy to be bias towards the better player, no one is denying that snute is the better player or that he would win most BO3's but if it had been soO instead they would've hyped the match instead of trying to sound smart and predicting the outcome before the game is finished, it's no one's fault I'm sure I would my subconscious would do the same thing in casters' shoes, if I saw Flash playing vs just about any forgeiner or korean for that matter, i'd likely be looking for mistakes to explain why the non-flash player is about to lose kind of a tunnel vision effect.
On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote: Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point.
No, it isn't HuK just beat Check and he went 3-3 against him, Check is a former T8 player who did pretty well for himself at the highest level, and again I never claimed forgeiners are better or even as good as koreans. I could watch soO vs Flash from the other day and point out a ton of mistakes, no one can play perfect, HuK almost choked and had blunders on the last game, much like he played brilliant and outplayed his opponent completely the game just before that.
the last series was pure shit. Both of them play awfully and next year it'd have been consider as some good level starcraft in the NA scene.
You say both of them played awfully, I mean you see the hatch at 2 hp, you see the big blunders, I don't disagree, that last game especially was not good, yet you say its a counter argument to what I was saying, you're talking about a stablished KeSPA pro in Check making just as many or more mistakes than the NA player, who also had a bad game by his own standards
On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote: Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point.
That series was great, I am not sure I see the point. Oh wait, personal opinion, my bad.
it was very entertaining but the skill level was shit.
Well thank god the only reason these things are board cast is to entertain.
the discussion you just jumped in was about skill lvl M. know it all
Really, the discussion seemed to be about SC2 fans being snobs and only wanting "the best play" which is what they define it as, because even top Korean players throw games. Because thats what the originating post in the quote seems to be about.
Frankly I completely agree that a lot of SC2 players are snobs, claiming they only watch the best play. But if you took the names off and didn't tell them who was playing, they could tell a top level Korean for a top Non-Korean.
On a sidenote, your argument here is that when top koreans play badly they could be mistaken for foreigners playing at their standard level. Except when top koreans play badly, usually the LR threads reflect that, because people are disappointed. So there isn't much of a double standard on their part there.
On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote: Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point.
That series was great, I am not sure I see the point. Oh wait, personal opinion, my bad.
it was very entertaining but the skill level was shit.
Well thank god the only reason these things are board cast is to entertain.
the discussion you just jumped in was about skill lvl M. know it all
Really, the discussion seemed to be about SC2 fans being snobs and only wanting "the best play" which is what they define it as, because even top Korean players throw games. Because thats what the originating post in the quote seems to be about.
Frankly I completely agree that a lot of SC2 players are snobs, claiming they only watch the best play. But if you took the names off and didn't tell them who was playing, they could tell a top level Korean for a top Non-Korean.
On a sidenote, your argument here is that when top koreans play badly they could be mistaken for foreigners playing at their standard level. Except when top koreans play badly, usually the LR threads reflect that, because people are disappointed. So there isn't much of a double standard on their part there.
Yes, but they are given the benefit of the doubt that it was a mistake and they will do better. If you take the Huk vs Check game, people are saying it was because it was an NA player in the NA league, even though both sides tried really hard to throw the game. Expect everyone is pointing out that it was Huks play and sort of ignoring the fact that Check threw pretty hard too.
When its a Korean player in a Korean league, its because they had a bad day.
When its NA players in the NA league, its because the players are terrible and will never improve.
On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote: Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point.
No, it isn't HuK just beat Check and he went 3-3 against him, Check is a former T8 player who did pretty well for himself at the highest level, and again I never claimed forgeiners are better or even as good as koreans. I could watch soO vs Flash from the other day and point out a ton of mistakes, no one can play perfect, HuK almost choked and had blunders on the last game, much like he played brilliant and outplayed his opponent completely the game just before that.
the last series was pure shit. Both of them play awfully and next year it'd have been consider as some good level starcraft in the NA scene.
Arguing anything based on a single series is completely stupid. If you looked at the series MKP played against Miniraser during the Red Bull Online qualifiers you would see play so awful that most people wondered if it actually was MKP. You wouldn't use this to argue that the level of play in Proleague is abysmal.
As to the article I'm surprised by how positive pros were overall. soO's reaction surprised me most of all. I agree that we haven't heard most of it and that it will really come down to Blizzard's execution. The suggestion that I can really get behind is the suggestion that Blizzard should try to create more opportunities to gain points in Korea, not just raise the overall amount of points awarded. There are two ways to do this. One would be to develop auxiliary tournaments in Korea, which seems fairly difficult to do. An easier solution would be to increase the number of GSLs. If there were 5 GSLs instead of 3, even with the same point counts, I could see the system work better.
On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote: Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point.
That series was great, I am not sure I see the point. Oh wait, personal opinion, my bad.
it was very entertaining but the skill level was shit.
Well thank god the only reason these things are board cast is to entertain.
the discussion you just jumped in was about skill lvl M. know it all
Really, the discussion seemed to be about SC2 fans being snobs and only wanting "the best play" which is what they define it as, because even top Korean players throw games. Because thats what the originating post in the quote seems to be about.
Frankly I completely agree that a lot of SC2 players are snobs, claiming they only watch the best play. But if you took the names off and didn't tell them who was playing, they could tell a top level Korean for a top Non-Korean.
On a sidenote, your argument here is that when top koreans play badly they could be mistaken for foreigners playing at their standard level. Except when top koreans play badly, usually the LR threads reflect that, because people are disappointed. So there isn't much of a double standard on their part there.
Yes, but they are given the benefit of the doubt that it was a mistake and they will do better. If you take the Huk vs Check game, people are saying it was because it was an NA player in the NA league, even though both sides tried really hard to throw the game. Expect everyone is pointing out that it was Huks play and sort of ignoring the fact that Check threw pretty hard too.
When its a Korean player in a Korean league, its because they had a bad day.
When its NA players in the NA league, its because the players are terrible and will never improve.
That would be because we've witnessed the good days of the top koreans. And I would argue Huk isn't a great example to bring up in there (I know you're not the one who brought him up). Because yeah, I've seen good days from him as well, and I don't think it's fair to call him a bad player; the thing is, he is in WCS NA in this system right now, so it's not like we're getting people out to let him in, he's already in.
On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote: Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point.
That series was great, I am not sure I see the point. Oh wait, personal opinion, my bad.
it was very entertaining but the skill level was !@#$%^&*.
Well thank god the only reason these things are board cast is to entertain.
the discussion you just jumped in was about skill lvl M. know it all
Really, the discussion seemed to be about SC2 fans being snobs and only wanting "the best play" which is what they define it as, because even top Korean players throw games. Because thats what the originating post in the quote seems to be about.
Frankly I completely agree that a lot of SC2 players are snobs, claiming they only watch the best play. But if you took the names off and didn't tell them who was playing, they could tell a top level Korean for a top Non-Korean.
On a sidenote, your argument here is that when top koreans play badly they could be mistaken for foreigners playing at their standard level. Except when top koreans play badly, usually the LR threads reflect that, because people are disappointed. So there isn't much of a double standard on their part there.
Yes, but they are given the benefit of the doubt that it was a mistake and they will do better. If you take the Huk vs Check game, people are saying it was because it was an NA player in the NA league, even though both sides tried really hard to throw the game. Expect everyone is pointing out that it was Huks play and sort of ignoring the fact that Check threw pretty hard too.
When its a Korean player in a Korean league, its because they had a bad day.
When its NA players in the NA league, its because the players are terrible and will never improve.
Yes I agree that 95% of viewers wouldn't notice the difference between NA player and Korean (at least if a commentator wouldn't make the mistakes obvious), but everyone using that as an argument of region-locking is missing the point. Viewer numbers are based on the perception of who the best player is, and while you too some extent can boost viewer numbers if you have a popular foreigner in play, the overall effect is gonna be negative when you add in a bunch of random medicore foreigners in the tournamnet.
Like who is the 30th best NA player and why would anyone wanna watch that guy over decent/solid koreans battling each other or the best NA players? Your not creating storyliness by removing Koreans and replacing them with medicore foreigners, rather the opposite is more likely to occur.
On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote: Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point.
That series was great, I am not sure I see the point. Oh wait, personal opinion, my bad.
it was very entertaining but the skill level was shit.
Well thank god the only reason these things are board cast is to entertain.
the discussion you just jumped in was about skill lvl M. know it all
Really, the discussion seemed to be about SC2 fans being snobs and only wanting "the best play" which is what they define it as, because even top Korean players throw games. Because thats what the originating post in the quote seems to be about.
Frankly I completely agree that a lot of SC2 players are snobs, claiming they only watch the best play. But if you took the names off and didn't tell them who was playing, they could tell a top level Korean for a top Non-Korean.
On a sidenote, your argument here is that when top koreans play badly they could be mistaken for foreigners playing at their standard level. Except when top koreans play badly, usually the LR threads reflect that, because people are disappointed. So there isn't much of a double standard on their part there.
Yes, but they are given the benefit of the doubt that it was a mistake and they will do better. If you take the Huk vs Check game, people are saying it was because it was an NA player in the NA league, even though both sides tried really hard to throw the game. Expect everyone is pointing out that it was Huks play and sort of ignoring the fact that Check threw pretty hard too.
When its a Korean player in a Korean league, its because they had a bad day.
When its NA players in the NA league, its because the players are terrible and will never improve.
no one ignored that check played like crap. also, no one really thinks much of check anyway.
On September 10 2014 12:37 Lokian wrote: might give more opportunity for foreigners but viewership might drop considerably, unless casters blow up the games shamelessly. I guess on the flip side, the reduced content I want to watch is less which is more manageable to me anyways. But it sucks it wont be live anymore seeing as most of the content is now concentrated in korea and maybe a little in EU.
I think viewership will not drop that much, and its really bad right now so a change is called for (IEM and RBB seens to be more sucesful than WCS AM, WCS EU and GSL?). But casters blowing up the games shamelessly would be an ilusion in my opinion. Some games in GSL are not that good (in terms of entertainment, level of play, or both) and it shows. And some games from weaker players can be great. I think CatZ could be streching things too much, but he does have a point, the gap is not as big as most people seens to perceive. I'm under the impression that people immediatly start looking for silly mistakes when its an unkown or "average foreigner" player, all that while closing its eyes to the lack of Flash splits or stupid sOs losses, pretending it never happens. As soon as the favoured players outplays the less favoured in some way, he is overhyped by the chat, threads and even the casters that might be the less biased ones.
On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote: Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point.
That series was great, I am not sure I see the point. Oh wait, personal opinion, my bad.
it was very entertaining but the skill level was shit.
Well thank god the only reason these things are board cast is to entertain.
the discussion you just jumped in was about skill lvl M. know it all
Really, the discussion seemed to be about SC2 fans being snobs and only wanting "the best play" which is what they define it as, because even top Korean players throw games. Because thats what the originating post in the quote seems to be about.
Frankly I completely agree that a lot of SC2 players are snobs, claiming they only watch the best play. But if you took the names off and didn't tell them who was playing, they could tell a top level Korean for a top Non-Korean.
On a sidenote, your argument here is that when top koreans play badly they could be mistaken for foreigners playing at their standard level. Except when top koreans play badly, usually the LR threads reflect that, because people are disappointed. So there isn't much of a double standard on their part there.
Yes, but they are given the benefit of the doubt that it was a mistake and they will do better. If you take the Huk vs Check game, people are saying it was because it was an NA player in the NA league, even though both sides tried really hard to throw the game. Expect everyone is pointing out that it was Huks play and sort of ignoring the fact that Check threw pretty hard too.
When its a Korean player in a Korean league, its because they had a bad day.
When its NA players in the NA league, its because the players are terrible and will never improve.
no one ignored that check played like crap. also, no one really thinks much of check anyway.
I was pointing to the guy who made the argument in this thread, rather the the LR thread. Also I would point out if the games are going to be that shit, the region locking won't matter, because mediocre Koreans will be replaced with NA players.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point.
That series was great, I am not sure I see the point. Oh wait, personal opinion, my bad.
it was very entertaining but the skill level was shit.
Well thank god the only reason these things are board cast is to entertain.
the discussion you just jumped in was about skill lvl M. know it all
Really, the discussion seemed to be about SC2 fans being snobs and only wanting "the best play" which is what they define it as, because even top Korean players throw games. Because thats what the originating post in the quote seems to be about.
Frankly I completely agree that a lot of SC2 players are snobs, claiming they only watch the best play. But if you took the names off and didn't tell them who was playing, they could tell a top level Korean for a top Non-Korean.
On a sidenote, your argument here is that when top koreans play badly they could be mistaken for foreigners playing at their standard level. Except when top koreans play badly, usually the LR threads reflect that, because people are disappointed. So there isn't much of a double standard on their part there.
Yes, but they are given the benefit of the doubt that it was a mistake and they will do better. If you take the Huk vs Check game, people are saying it was because it was an NA player in the NA league, even though both sides tried really hard to throw the game. Expect everyone is pointing out that it was Huks play and sort of ignoring the fact that Check threw pretty hard too.
When its a Korean player in a Korean league, its because they had a bad day.
When its NA players in the NA league, its because the players are terrible and will never improve.
no one ignored that check played like crap. also, no one really thinks much of check anyway.
I was pointing to the guy who made the argument in this thread, rather the the LR thread. Also I would point out if the games are going to be that shit, the region locking won't matter, because mediocre Koreans will be replaced with NA players.
Except Polt.
Asia can save NA The NA server is a healthy SC2 scene, North America itself is probably not.
On September 10 2014 12:29 bo1b wrote: To all of you talking shit regarding catz opinion, did you see flash vs true, or drg vs soo g1 from the gsl group d recently?
DRG vs soO was an amazing display of decision making. And FlaSh vs TRUE was textbook map abuse in g1 and style abuser in g2 (TRUE always go for a heavy queen + speed ling play in TvZ, guess what's really good against it: hellbats). The fact you can't see the brillance in those 3 games just speak for yourself. (the 2rax was really really good)
Are you fucking serious? game one of drg vs soo was pathetic. Also, you're seriously implying that building hellbats and moving out with them is a thing that only kespa players can do?
Notice I didn't talk about any other game from that night btw.
Frankly it's pathetic that people can't acknowledge that koreans sometimes play awfully, below the level of foreigners even. Because watching soo run 8+ banelings into 2 of drgs and lose them all wasn't amazing micro by drg, it was horrendous micro by soo.
And to clarify, I'm not talking about the great decisions made by soo flash drg or true, we're pretty clearly talking about the horrendous decisions made by them. If you put g1 of drg vs soo on live broadcast and said drg was being played by some random na pro, it wouldn't be hard to believe it. Which is the point catz is making, and the point you're unable to argue against.
I actually agree that 80% wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but Catz is overstating his opinion. Giving specific examples of players and matches, such as this Huk vs Check game, or Snute vs Flash, or any other matchup doesn't prove any point, one way or another. The mean level of play is what matters, since obviously there will be duds and great games from all regions. The fact is, the standard of play in Korea is higher. Most of the time, that means better games.
However, for casual audiences level of play doesn't matter as much. All that matters is their enjoyment of matches, and that is determined by more than just skill level. Skill, circumstances, and the players involved (local favorites, etc) all matter to a person's enjoyment. That's why the "decreased skill level = decreased viewers" argument likely won't hold. If it does, it definitely won't have a linear relationship.
The problem is, he is arguing this point on TL. The posters most likely to reply watch more games, play more ladder, and have different priorities watching a game. Whether their understanding of skill level is real or delusional is beside the point; their opinion on skill level affects their enjoyment of the game. Just as many casual fans choose to watch games because of their favorite local heroes, many on TL watch specific players expecting higher level play. Whether or not they actually understand all the depths of skill on display is irrelevant; the fact is the skill level in Korean tournaments is higher, and that knowledge and expectation affects how they enjoy the games. It's entirely subjective, and the reason is no less legitimate than watching someone because he comes from the same country.
However true it is that most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between top foreigners and middling Koreans and that the gap is slowly closing, you are preaching to the wrong choir.
On September 10 2014 13:32 lichter wrote: I actually agree that 80% wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but Catz is overstating his opinion. Giving specific examples of players and matches, such as this Huk vs Check game, or Snute vs Flash, or any other matchup doesn't prove any point, one way or another. The mean level of play is what matters, since obviously there will be duds and great games from all regions. The fact is, the standard of play in Korea is higher. Most of the time, that means better games.
However, for casual audiences level of play doesn't matter as much. All that matters is their enjoyment of matches, and that is determined by more than just skill level. Skill, circumstances, and the players involved (local favorites, etc) all matter to a person's enjoyment. That's why the "decreased skill level = decreased viewers" argument likely won't hold. If it does, it definitely won't have a linear relationship.
The problem is, he is arguing this point on TL. The posters most likely to reply watch more games, play more ladder, and have different priorities watching a game. Whether their understanding of skill level is real or delusional is beside the point; their opinion on skill level affects their enjoyment of the game. Just as many casual fans choose to watch games because of their favorite local heroes, many on TL watch specific players expecting higher level play. Whether or not they actually understand all the depths of skill on display is irrelevant; the fact is the skill level in Korean tournaments is higher, and that knowledge and expectation affects how they enjoy the games. It's entirely subjective, and the reason is no less legitimate than watching someone because he comes from the same country.
However true it is that most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between top foreigners and middling Koreans and that the gap is slowly closing, you are preaching to the wrong choir.
I think more like 50% of fans would be able to tell the difference between top level and games like Huk vs Check. Your average Starcraft fan is pretty frickin dedicated. I would say, however, that many of the people who could tell the difference just don't care and prefer the foreigner personalities/storylines/ect over tip-top level play. I love me some Korean action, but I'm sure a lot of people aren't as picky and would rather see a local do well or something like that.
On September 10 2014 11:17 ROOTCatZ wrote: You're completely missing the point I'm trying to make again, I am not talking about playstyle of course everyone has different playstyles, im merely pointing out the gap in skill isn't as big as people think, and a game between two top forgeiners can be just as exciting and interesting as two top koreans, I've repeated this about 20 times now,
On September 10 2014 12:56 Wasaru wrote: Tune into Catz stream everyone.
It's like we're basically watching soulkey!
you're also missing the point completely
what point is he missing? You said you beat all the top level koreans pretty damn often, name dropping soO, PartinG, Solar, DRG..etc.
Let's give you the benefit of the doubt, and so it's fair to assume that watching you is like watching soulkey? Lol...
And if your point that the skill difference is so similar stands true, then why would there be a need for this region lock? And why is every bad foreigner advocating it desperately? Explain that one.
I think there is a definitive skill gap between the whole stereotypical foreigners vs koreans because of results. You might think because there's just more korean pros, and it's true and foreigners might produce better results because of region lock but unless you have more foreigners prove they can beat b-team koreans... koreans will always be perceived as better. I guess you can glorify foreigners in an korean-less tournament and then have that foreigner defeat a few koreans in a small amount of games. That happened before but that's the real illusion in my opinion. The reason I want to watch certain games is because I'm expecting good games. Casters glorifying players in the games might help with viewership but it's not really what drives the interest. I mean I've seen foreigners with good games and play, and the game is volatile enough for players that practice less can win because the stars aligned and things worked out, but the results show that it's really hard to win against koreans. There's jinro, stephano, and a few others that were interesting to watch at the time I guess but the foreigner hope is still as low as ever in recent times. The region lock sort of reduces the chances of us seeing such a thing happen... say a foreigner winning a tournament with many koreans.
On September 10 2014 11:17 ROOTCatZ wrote: You're completely missing the point I'm trying to make again, I am not talking about playstyle of course everyone has different playstyles, im merely pointing out the gap in skill isn't as big as people think, and a game between two top forgeiners can be just as exciting and interesting as two top koreans, I've repeated this about 20 times now,
On September 10 2014 11:17 ROOTCatZ wrote: You're completely missing the point I'm trying to make again, I am not talking about playstyle of course everyone has different playstyles, im merely pointing out the gap in skill isn't as big as people think, and a game between two top forgeiners can be just as exciting and interesting as two top koreans, I've repeated this about 20 times now,
yeah, exactly, max concurrent count = 26314 lol.....
SPL final day = 130+k concurrent on just one of the chinese streams.
you should pbly compare that to all korean tournaments like SPL..etc. Heck, more KespaCup is coming up too, in the very odd hours for non-Asian regions, and see how much it brings.
On September 10 2014 06:16 Boucot wrote: I was hoping that TaeJa would reconsider his retirement thing, I'm disappointed. I mean, he's only 19 years old. And we'll lose Polt and Bomber next year too because of the military, that's sad.
its more of a health issue for taeja, his wrists are really bad, when he streamed, he would stretch after everygame. he even had to take a break during ATC finals which shows how severe it is.
I hope he can win Blizzcon and buy new wrists from the money. Stay away SoS !
I was never a particularly good player (okay, I suck at SC2), but I can still tell the difference between a high level Korean vs Korean game versus a Foreigner vs Foreigner game (with only a small number of foreigner outliers).
In a KvK game, you'll almost always see at least one player out on the map, except in some PvPs. Whoever has map control will use it. There will be repeated harassment (drops, runbys) and the economy for both players will pretty continuously expand unless actively being denied. Major engagements include a large number of micro actions such as target firing and spell casting as well as spreading or retreating specific units.
In FvF, you'll still often see two players holed up in their own bases. Neither player is harassing, both are still just hanging back and building their deathballs. You'll often only get one engagement and in that engagement you'll rarely see more than just rudimentary micro. Alternatively, there are some foreigners who are stylistically harassment/micro based, but very few (if any) can maintain spending and economic growth during that harassment.
I'm sure you can cherry pick examples of great games by two Foreigners or poor games by two Koreans, but I believe what I just said will hold true for the vast majority of games. It's the same reason why a foreigner can occasionally beat a Korean, but the Koreans win the vast majority. There are noticeable differences even for casual fans.
I'd love to see a study done by an unbiased person that took normal Korean games and normal Foreigner games, then erased all the names, and had a wide assortment of SC2 viewers watch those games and then had them guess whether it was a foreigner or Korean game. I'd bet the results would not be random at all.
It's not that I have anything against region lock. We were already GSL-lite and that really wasn't good for anyone. It wasn't the best games and we didn't have our local heroes to root for. I think there could be a benefit to making NA more NA based if WCS-NA is smart about their broadcasting by giving players a storyline + exposure. WCS-NA can be like MLS compared to the Premier league that is WCS-KR.
If they try to hype WCS-NA based on skill-level, then I think it's doomed.
On September 10 2014 11:17 ROOTCatZ wrote: You're completely missing the point I'm trying to make again, I am not talking about playstyle of course everyone has different playstyles, im merely pointing out the gap in skill isn't as big as people think, and a game between two top forgeiners can be just as exciting and interesting as two top koreans, I've repeated this about 20 times now,
yeah, exactly, max concurrent count = 26314 lol.....
SPL final day = 130+k concurrent on just one of the chinese streams.
you should pbly compare that to all korean tournaments like SPL..etc. Heck, more KespaCup is coming up too, in the very odd hours for non-Asian regions, and see how much it brings.
Apart from the fact that Shoutcraft had considerable problems due to forfeits etc, comparing it to SPL is retarded. They are completely different categories of events. Its like saying that WCS America has a much higher viewer count than the OlimoLeague.
I don't get the point of Catz' whole "most fans wouldn't notice the difference between koreans or foreigners playing"-argument. When I'm saying I want to see the best games possible, I'm not claiming, I could identify if korean pros are playing or not when the names are blacked out (even this is a mere assumption - to say this, it would have to be tested). But what I can see, is, when something is really well done. Perhaps I miss many details because I'm a noob, but I'm able to recognize (for example) that Marus bio-micro dancing around a ton of storms and therefore winning with a smaller army is frickin' amazingly awesome. I would notice that awesomeness, even if I wouldn't know, who is playing. Those moments of awe are more likely to happen watching the best possible players. I might not notice the difference knowingly but I would see more really good actions and would experience more joy watching toplevel koreans play.
I'm not saying, that we won't see such good actions from foreigners - which is why it's probably hard to tell the difference between good foreigners and koreans - but we'll see it more from top koreans, which is why I want to see them playing.
On September 10 2014 11:17 ROOTCatZ wrote: You're completely missing the point I'm trying to make again, I am not talking about playstyle of course everyone has different playstyles, im merely pointing out the gap in skill isn't as big as people think, and a game between two top forgeiners can be just as exciting and interesting as two top koreans, I've repeated this about 20 times now,
yeah, exactly, max concurrent count = 26314 lol.....
SPL final day = 130+k concurrent on just one of the chinese streams.
you should pbly compare that to all korean tournaments like SPL..etc. Heck, more KespaCup is coming up too, in the very odd hours for non-Asian regions, and see how much it brings.
Apart from the fact that Shoutcraft had considerable problems due to forfeits etc, comparing it to SPL is retarded. They are completely different categories of events. Its like saying that WCS America has a much higher viewer count than the OlimoLeague.
If you think that argument is retarded, wait til you see the argument that says top NA pros are basically the same as top koreans.. oh wait..
Ok look. I spent a great deal of time casting and watching North American Grand Master play in my time as a SC2 shoutcaster.
Foreigner play CAN be entertaining, but there is a HUGE difference between it and top level Korean level play which I am most accustomed to watching since that is what I prefer to watch.
It's not hard to notice a difference. CatZ is SERIOUSLY underestimating either A: the dedication of the fanbase or B: the difference in noticeable spectator value between foreign play and top level Korean play if he's holding his statement to be true.
I'm going to go with B. simply because I'd like to give CatZ the benefit of the doubt in not blatantly insulting all of us.
With the amount of variance that exists in Starcraft 2, I don't think its plausible to argue that the skill gap isn't large. The results are far too stacked in their favor
So wait, wait, wait, wait... wait. CatZ is saying that if a person were to show me games played in NA/EU/KR where the casters are muted, overlays are all the same and names were hidden that I couldn't tell difference? Going from watching GSL to WCS AM is like going from watching men's football to women's. There is a reason why I just completely stopped watching and caring about WCS AM; the games where hardly half as entertaining as EU and a joke compared to KR. Maybe 1 in 20 games were good, simply not enough to justify my time watching the rest of the crap on it.
Just because top Koreans can have serious blunders doesn't mean we can't distinguish between Koreans and foreigners. The only distinctive difference between korean and foreigners are their level of play.
The worst games from Koreans are what we expect from foreigners, a lower skill level on average that has more of these mistakes occurring.
For every one mistake you are able to point out from korean players, you can simply point more out from foreigners, in average.
I may not be able to distinguish between top Koreans but between top Koreans and non scarlett level foreigners, it wouldn't be difficult at all.
Boss Toss on Facebook, 7 hours ago(that's what 7 hod means ):
MC Bosstoss 7 hod · This is my opinion about 2015 WCS.
It will make a lot of retire korea players.
Because starcraft 2 is not popular than dota2 and league of legends.
This mean is small sponsorship than them.
So it will make salary and travel money problem .
I don't know about business because i did focus starcraft2.
when i playing bad at sc2 i will retire it's good for me,
I wish all progamers can play when they want to play.
Thx for reading.
It is just my opinion.
I haven't seen it here, so here you go
Also, my opinion on Catz opinion Bullshit. Yeah, I cannot tell the difference between individual Korean players and foreigners, but I definitely can tell the difference between Korean play and Foreigner play. Hell, this and the last week there were some WCS EU RO32 after GSL RO16. Do you really want to tell me that it was the same level of play? REALLY? SERIOUSLY?!
SKTsoO Well, for example we're in the situation where Classic, a champion of the toughest region, might not make it to Blizzcon this year. I don't think GSL is the hardest, I think it's all pretty similar. I think non-Korean wins should be recognized all the same.
am = eu = kr, confirmed by soojwa
The manner contrast between his answer and Taeja's is so fucking funny ^^
That's where you know Taeja has become a good North American !
i think it would be an interesting experiment to have player names blacked out and guess if it was a korean or foreigner playing. regardless, the argument is still valid. you want to see the best vs the best. if it were a korean vs a NA player, you're gonna know which one is the foreigner, because the foreigner is gonna be losing unless their name is scarlett or perhaps major. and that's gonna be painfully obvious when the NA players get stomped down in the finals.
On September 10 2014 12:56 Wasaru wrote: Tune into Catz stream everyone.
It's like we're basically watching soulkey!
you're also missing the point completely
FWIW, I get your point and agree.
Vaguely related; we get a lot of shit when people's favorites aren't top 10 on aligulac. Doesn't that say something about the players? Maybe they aren't as good as you think?
(I know that we have some problems with the system still, but we are working on some changes that are ready for deployment Soon™)
On September 10 2014 11:17 ROOTCatZ wrote: You're completely missing the point I'm trying to make again, I am not talking about playstyle of course everyone has different playstyles, im merely pointing out the gap in skill isn't as big as people think, and a game between two top forgeiners can be just as exciting and interesting as two top koreans, I've repeated this about 20 times now,
On September 10 2014 12:56 Wasaru wrote: Tune into Catz stream everyone.
It's like we're basically watching soulkey!
you're also missing the point completely
what point is he missing? You said you beat all the top level koreans pretty damn often, name dropping soO, PartinG, Solar, DRG..etc.
Let's give you the benefit of the doubt, and so it's fair to assume that watching you is like watching soulkey? Lol...
And if your point that the skill difference is so similar stands true, then why would there be a need for this region lock? And why is every bad foreigner advocating it desperately? Explain that one.
not sure you read my post at all, I've said plenty of times koreans are on average better, even much better than forgeiners, there's no debating that, and watching a stream / pov is completely different than watching casted match, I am saying that the difference in skill to a viewer shouldn't be noticeable, I know i'd have trouble myself telling a top forgeiner game from a top korean game if the games were blacked out, like I said in a different post, in sc2 ONE unit can make a huge difference in a fight, go open the unit tester and fight 2 mirror armys, and make one of them have ONE extra unit, by the end of the fight there should be a big difference made by that one unit, the army that had it should have not one but multiple remaining units as the one unit is able to do it's dps throughout the entire duration of the fight, Koreans in general are better mechanically, no argument there, to make things even more basic, if Flash or Soulkey can spend his money faster, drone or scv stack better, rally faster, whatever the case, it's very likely that they'll have more units than most if not all forgeiners, that ONE unit can decide the outcome of a game, a difference as sutile as ONE unit, it can be a VERY consistent difference, but its very sutile non the less, I don't think most people can tell differences this sutile ESPECIALLY in a broadcasted game as opposed to a replay, and I am confident forgeiner strategy is just as good as korean.
On September 10 2014 15:52 Jono7272 wrote: Pros saying fans wouldn't be able to tell the difference is starting to come across as them trying to convince themselves they're at a similar level.
that's not at all the case, please read my responses if you'd like a further explanation of my thoughts
On September 10 2014 11:17 ROOTCatZ wrote: You're completely missing the point I'm trying to make again, I am not talking about playstyle of course everyone has different playstyles, im merely pointing out the gap in skill isn't as big as people think, and a game between two top forgeiners can be just as exciting and interesting as two top koreans, I've repeated this about 20 times now,
so exciting that the viewer count is abysmal, amirite?
On September 10 2014 13:08 ROOTCatZ wrote:
On September 10 2014 12:56 Wasaru wrote: Tune into Catz stream everyone.
It's like we're basically watching soulkey!
you're also missing the point completely
what point is he missing? You said you beat all the top level koreans pretty damn often, name dropping soO, PartinG, Solar, DRG..etc.
Let's give you the benefit of the doubt, and so it's fair to assume that watching you is like watching soulkey? Lol...
And if your point that the skill difference is so similar stands true, then why would there be a need for this region lock? And why is every bad foreigner advocating it desperately? Explain that one.
not sure you read my post at all, I've said plenty of times koreans are on average better, even much better than forgeiners, there's no debating that, and watching a stream / pov is completely different than watching casted match, I am saying that the difference in skill to a viewer shouldn't be noticeable, I know i'd have trouble myself telling a top forgeiner game from a top korean game if the games were blacked out, like I said in a different post, in sc2 ONE unit can make a huge difference in a fight, go open the unit tester and fight 2 mirror armys, and make one of them have ONE extra unit, by the end of the fight there should be a big difference made by that one unit, the army that had it should have not one but multiple remaining units as the one unit is able to do it's dps throughout the entire duration of the fight, Koreans in general are better mechanically, no argument there, to make things even more basic, if Flash or Soulkey can spend his money faster, drone or scv stack better, rally faster, whatever the case, it's very likely that they'll have more units than most if not all forgeiners, that ONE unit can decide the outcome of a game, a difference as sutile as ONE unit, it can be a VERY consistent difference, but its very sutile non the less, I don't think most people can tell differences this sutile ESPECIALLY in a broadcasted game as opposed to a replay, and I am confident forgeiner strategy is just as good as korean.
it's not just that ONE unit like you are saying though, it's one unit every 10~30 seconds, which piles up..... not to mention the supply blocks and various micro mistakes..etc.
Saying foreigner and top Koreans level are not much different is not true. Koreans win every major tournament, even when most of top Korean KESPA players cant go to international tournament. If u want to say level between foreigner and Korean not too much different, please do as good as them first, win some major tournament, get a place in BLITZCON then we discuss again. Except few top foreigners ( most from EU region) can compete with top level korean players and win some games, i doubt any other foreigner can even make into code A ( or code B if they have code C j/k) in GSL level.
I still don't understand why Catz is trying to defend his thought here. Because, yeah, as much as I can understand his thought, here is the part of the audience which can see the difference in the game(mostly). I know some friends of mine cannot tell the difference and probably most of the viewers cannot, but man, we are on TL.net, it is like going on the biggest WoW/DOTA2/LoL fan-forum and argue about ... damn, I don't know, I do not play/watch any other multiplayer than SC2 :D
Catz, you are right, but on the wrong part of the internets
Edit: It is like saying I could not see the difference between HeatoN in his prime in CS and a "regular" pro. Hell, the biggest fans of CS would tell the difference correctly 9 times from 10. But casual viewer would not, hardcore part of the audience is the smaller though, IMO... Man, last year we were watching some old videos and I was like "This was HeatoN, right?" And after rewind, yeah, it was his play I need to watch some old school videos of CS now, damn it!
Way too many people with poor reading comprehension in here. It's usually the case with forums though. Make your post more than a few sentences, and people will just latch on to a single idea and ignore everything else to suit their own opinions.
StarDust made a good point, and if it's really going to work like that, then this whole system is pointless. Namely, that you'll need to have a valid Visa for the region that you want to participate in, but not necessarily live there. In that case, like SD said, you could just get a Visa for the region you want while still living and training at wherever you're now. Which is basically the same situation as now, except with the pointless hassle of getting extra Visas. And TLO put it best, that the whole region lock, as it is planned now, is just a cop out. The fact that Blizzard didn't even plan some sort of compromise, like leaving some spots in each region open to anyone from anywhere in order to keep it from being a completely boring massacre where a few local pros mow down a bunch of no-name scrubs who only got in because of Blizzard's coddling, makes me wonder if they shouldn't just pass the organization of the WCS to someone more competent. Or maybe they'll realize how ridiculous and flawed this whole system of theirs is and refine it until 2015.
About the skill debate, why not just adjust the format?
In WCS EU, the ro32 can be extremely dull and have a level of skill that makes it just not entertaining. If there were less koreans that would be even worse.
So if this change actually happens why not just start WCS EU and AM at ro16? It would give a higher level of skill with more competition and make the whole thing more entertaining.
in the other hand, in GSL, the ro32 groups are so stacked it's crazy. Maybe add more players (ro48 or ro64) to give more people a chance?
"Blizzard is considering the redistribution of WCS points by region. What do you think is an appropriate amount for Korea compared to other regions? Hmmm, I don't know why there's a need to do that. I think all regions should reward the same amount of points."
soo is 100% correct here, ofc blizzcon is not top16 then BUT if they want that they can invite the 16 koreans in first place without having the other areas.
Its like World Cup, ofc is Germany stronger then Saudi Arabia, but that does not mean that Brasil Germany and Spain send 6 teams each and no more teams for asia ...
taeja is right true
Don't you think that the North American scene needs to grow in order for the long term health of SC2? There aren't even many NA pros to save.
On September 10 2014 16:40 Drake wrote: "Blizzard is considering the redistribution of WCS points by region. What do you think is an appropriate amount for Korea compared to other regions? Hmmm, I don't know why there's a need to do that. I think all regions should reward the same amount of points."
soo is 100% correct here, ofc blizzcon is not top16 then BUT if they want that they can invite the 16 koreans in first place without having the other areas.
Its like World Cup, ofc is Germany stronger then Saudi Arabia, but that does not mean that Brasil Germany and Spain send 6 teams each and no more teams for asia ...
taeja is right true
Don't you think that the North American scene needs to grow in order for the long term health of SC2? There aren't even many NA pros to save.
SAD! but true
Do not think about countries in football but about regions. Because Europe is the strongest region it sends the most countries. Almost half of the countries(13) are from Europe
On September 10 2014 16:40 Drake wrote: "Blizzard is considering the redistribution of WCS points by region. What do you think is an appropriate amount for Korea compared to other regions? Hmmm, I don't know why there's a need to do that. I think all regions should reward the same amount of points."
soo is 100% correct here, ofc blizzcon is not top16 then BUT if they want that they can invite the 16 koreans in first place without having the other areas.
Its like World Cup, ofc is Germany stronger then Saudi Arabia, but that does not mean that Brasil Germany and Spain send 6 teams each and no more teams for asia ...
taeja is right true
Don't you think that the North American scene needs to grow in order for the long term health of SC2? There aren't even many NA pros to save.
SAD! but true
Do not think about countries in football but about regions. Because Europe is the strongest region it sends the most countries. Almost half of the countries(13) are from Europe
Was about to post that. Europe sends 13, Americas 7, Africa 5 and Asia 3. Not all european countries get equal chances of qualifying for champions league either
i notice that the NA pros have paragraphs to write for some reason, unlike the rest. brb finish reading
E: I think Catz's post is the most interesting. For a while now I've been wondering whether or not I could tell the difference between a GSL match and WCS EU match, with the name's blacked out. After watching Grubby against Happy, yesterday I got the impression that I could. There are tiny details, like medivacs in danger being turned around and saved, that I picked up. However the overall strategy and mind-games seem to be there.
It seems that most people are definitely aware that koreigners are getting the short end of the stick (notice taeja). it also seems like that a lot of people are looking at the NA scene and condemning it to suck
tangent:
I definitely think casters should stick to being more play by play / some analysis instead of being ridiculously judgmental.
e.g. tastosis when they see a player with a game-winning advantage, they'll just say that and give a few possibilities about what might make the game go the other way. tasteless particularly is excellent at explaining what's going in a broad fashion, which is what you want to do generally speaking. "zerg's ahead because of this", "that was a good move from Terran".
instead of apollo and kaelris (however it's spelled) who just say "rofl, this guy is dead".
On September 10 2014 11:17 ROOTCatZ wrote: You're completely missing the point I'm trying to make again, I am not talking about playstyle of course everyone has different playstyles, im merely pointing out the gap in skill isn't as big as people think, and a game between two top forgeiners can be just as exciting and interesting as two top koreans, I've repeated this about 20 times now,
so exciting that the viewer count is abysmal, amirite?
On September 10 2014 13:08 ROOTCatZ wrote:
On September 10 2014 12:56 Wasaru wrote: Tune into Catz stream everyone.
It's like we're basically watching soulkey!
you're also missing the point completely
what point is he missing? You said you beat all the top level koreans pretty damn often, name dropping soO, PartinG, Solar, DRG..etc.
Let's give you the benefit of the doubt, and so it's fair to assume that watching you is like watching soulkey? Lol...
And if your point that the skill difference is so similar stands true, then why would there be a need for this region lock? And why is every bad foreigner advocating it desperately? Explain that one.
not sure you read my post at all, I've said plenty of times koreans are on average better, even much better than forgeiners, there's no debating that, and watching a stream / pov is completely different than watching casted match, I am saying that the difference in skill to a viewer shouldn't be noticeable, I know i'd have trouble myself telling a top forgeiner game from a top korean game if the games were blacked out, like I said in a different post, in sc2 ONE unit can make a huge difference in a fight, go open the unit tester and fight 2 mirror armys, and make one of them have ONE extra unit, by the end of the fight there should be a big difference made by that one unit, the army that had it should have not one but multiple remaining units as the one unit is able to do it's dps throughout the entire duration of the fight, Koreans in general are better mechanically, no argument there, to make things even more basic, if Flash or Soulkey can spend his money faster, drone or scv stack better, rally faster, whatever the case, it's very likely that they'll have more units than most if not all forgeiners, that ONE unit can decide the outcome of a game, a difference as sutile as ONE unit, it can be a VERY consistent difference, but its very sutile non the less, I don't think most people can tell differences this sutile ESPECIALLY in a broadcasted game as opposed to a replay, and I am confident forgeiner strategy is just as good as korean.
You're accusing the viewers of being idiots.
There's no way around that. We can tell the difference in skill level as spectators, if you don't believe that then that is a problem but it's definitely not anything substantial that I would stand behind in your position.
It would be great it someone could get a hold of 2 replays from ladder please, one from NA / EU between foreigners, one from KR between Koreans. Cast them both, set up a straw poll on which one is from KR and which one is from NA.
E: I didn't read every post in the thread, however the impression I'm getting is that Catz isn't arguing that foreigners are as good as Koreans. He's arguing that the match quality between top foreigners and top Koreans is pretty much the same.
On September 10 2014 11:17 ROOTCatZ wrote: You're completely missing the point I'm trying to make again, I am not talking about playstyle of course everyone has different playstyles, im merely pointing out the gap in skill isn't as big as people think, and a game between two top forgeiners can be just as exciting and interesting as two top koreans, I've repeated this about 20 times now,
so exciting that the viewer count is abysmal, amirite?
On September 10 2014 13:08 ROOTCatZ wrote:
On September 10 2014 12:56 Wasaru wrote: Tune into Catz stream everyone.
It's like we're basically watching soulkey!
you're also missing the point completely
what point is he missing? You said you beat all the top level koreans pretty damn often, name dropping soO, PartinG, Solar, DRG..etc.
Let's give you the benefit of the doubt, and so it's fair to assume that watching you is like watching soulkey? Lol...
And if your point that the skill difference is so similar stands true, then why would there be a need for this region lock? And why is every bad foreigner advocating it desperately? Explain that one.
not sure you read my post at all, I've said plenty of times koreans are on average better, even much better than forgeiners, there's no debating that, and watching a stream / pov is completely different than watching casted match, I am saying that the difference in skill to a viewer shouldn't be noticeable, I know i'd have trouble myself telling a top forgeiner game from a top korean game if the games were blacked out, like I said in a different post, in sc2 ONE unit can make a huge difference in a fight, go open the unit tester and fight 2 mirror armys, and make one of them have ONE extra unit, by the end of the fight there should be a big difference made by that one unit, the army that had it should have not one but multiple remaining units as the one unit is able to do it's dps throughout the entire duration of the fight, Koreans in general are better mechanically, no argument there, to make things even more basic, if Flash or Soulkey can spend his money faster, drone or scv stack better, rally faster, whatever the case, it's very likely that they'll have more units than most if not all forgeiners, that ONE unit can decide the outcome of a game, a difference as sutile as ONE unit, it can be a VERY consistent difference, but its very sutile non the less, I don't think most people can tell differences this sutile ESPECIALLY in a broadcasted game as opposed to a replay, and I am confident forgeiner strategy is just as good as korean.
You're accusing the viewers of being idiots.
There's no way around that. We can tell the difference in skill level as spectators, if you don't believe that then that is a problem but it's definitely not anything substantial that I would stand behind in your position.
The average person is an idiot you know? Even pros agree that a majority of viewers wouldn't be able to tell the difference. (There was a discussion going on between carmac, targa and tlo and others I think)
On September 10 2014 11:17 ROOTCatZ wrote: You're completely missing the point I'm trying to make again, I am not talking about playstyle of course everyone has different playstyles, im merely pointing out the gap in skill isn't as big as people think, and a game between two top forgeiners can be just as exciting and interesting as two top koreans, I've repeated this about 20 times now,
so exciting that the viewer count is abysmal, amirite?
On September 10 2014 13:08 ROOTCatZ wrote:
On September 10 2014 12:56 Wasaru wrote: Tune into Catz stream everyone.
It's like we're basically watching soulkey!
you're also missing the point completely
what point is he missing? You said you beat all the top level koreans pretty damn often, name dropping soO, PartinG, Solar, DRG..etc.
Let's give you the benefit of the doubt, and so it's fair to assume that watching you is like watching soulkey? Lol...
And if your point that the skill difference is so similar stands true, then why would there be a need for this region lock? And why is every bad foreigner advocating it desperately? Explain that one.
not sure you read my post at all, I've said plenty of times koreans are on average better, even much better than forgeiners, there's no debating that, and watching a stream / pov is completely different than watching casted match, I am saying that the difference in skill to a viewer shouldn't be noticeable, I know i'd have trouble myself telling a top forgeiner game from a top korean game if the games were blacked out, like I said in a different post, in sc2 ONE unit can make a huge difference in a fight, go open the unit tester and fight 2 mirror armys, and make one of them have ONE extra unit, by the end of the fight there should be a big difference made by that one unit, the army that had it should have not one but multiple remaining units as the one unit is able to do it's dps throughout the entire duration of the fight, Koreans in general are better mechanically, no argument there, to make things even more basic, if Flash or Soulkey can spend his money faster, drone or scv stack better, rally faster, whatever the case, it's very likely that they'll have more units than most if not all forgeiners, that ONE unit can decide the outcome of a game, a difference as sutile as ONE unit, it can be a VERY consistent difference, but its very sutile non the less, I don't think most people can tell differences this sutile ESPECIALLY in a broadcasted game as opposed to a replay, and I am confident forgeiner strategy is just as good as korean.
You're accusing the viewers of being idiots.
There's no way around that. We can tell the difference in skill level as spectators, if you don't believe that then that is a problem but it's definitely not anything substantial that I would stand behind in your position.
There's no reason to act offended. He's saying that he himself would have difficulty. It's arrogant and it's absurd to think you or the average viewer know the game better than Catz that you'd so easily be able to.
On September 10 2014 11:17 ROOTCatZ wrote: You're completely missing the point I'm trying to make again, I am not talking about playstyle of course everyone has different playstyles, im merely pointing out the gap in skill isn't as big as people think, and a game between two top forgeiners can be just as exciting and interesting as two top koreans, I've repeated this about 20 times now,
so exciting that the viewer count is abysmal, amirite?
On September 10 2014 13:08 ROOTCatZ wrote:
On September 10 2014 12:56 Wasaru wrote: Tune into Catz stream everyone.
It's like we're basically watching soulkey!
you're also missing the point completely
what point is he missing? You said you beat all the top level koreans pretty damn often, name dropping soO, PartinG, Solar, DRG..etc.
Let's give you the benefit of the doubt, and so it's fair to assume that watching you is like watching soulkey? Lol...
And if your point that the skill difference is so similar stands true, then why would there be a need for this region lock? And why is every bad foreigner advocating it desperately? Explain that one.
not sure you read my post at all, I've said plenty of times koreans are on average better, even much better than forgeiners, there's no debating that, and watching a stream / pov is completely different than watching casted match, I am saying that the difference in skill to a viewer shouldn't be noticeable, I know i'd have trouble myself telling a top forgeiner game from a top korean game if the games were blacked out, like I said in a different post, in sc2 ONE unit can make a huge difference in a fight, go open the unit tester and fight 2 mirror armys, and make one of them have ONE extra unit, by the end of the fight there should be a big difference made by that one unit, the army that had it should have not one but multiple remaining units as the one unit is able to do it's dps throughout the entire duration of the fight, Koreans in general are better mechanically, no argument there, to make things even more basic, if Flash or Soulkey can spend his money faster, drone or scv stack better, rally faster, whatever the case, it's very likely that they'll have more units than most if not all forgeiners, that ONE unit can decide the outcome of a game, a difference as sutile as ONE unit, it can be a VERY consistent difference, but its very sutile non the less, I don't think most people can tell differences this sutile ESPECIALLY in a broadcasted game as opposed to a replay, and I am confident forgeiner strategy is just as good as korean.
You're accusing the viewers of being idiots.
There's no way around that. We can tell the difference in skill level as spectators, if you don't believe that then that is a problem but it's definitely not anything substantial that I would stand behind in your position.
There's no reason to act offended. He's saying that he himself would have difficulty. It's arrogant and it's absurd to think you or the average viewer know the game better than Catz that you'd so easily be able to.
He takes in the minutia of the differences, such as pointing out the difference between Flash on a bad day and Bunny on a good one, and creates an argument based on it. He has an idea, conjecture is what it really is, and looks for specific instances that support it. Yes it can be argued that it can be hard to distinguish between players at times, depending on circumstance. What he completely ignores - for the sake of the integrity of his argument, though I'm sure it's deliberate and not real ignorance - is the holistic differences that the regions have. I think we can say that, and I'm sure many people will agree here, that it can be hard to distinguish players in certain cases but it would be completely trivial to distinguish quality between WCS AM and GSL.
In this context CatZ's argument is completely irrelevant since the overall quality and value are completely perceptible between WCS AM and GSL. I don't think anyone who has watched more than a season of WCS from each region can ever mistake WCS AM for GSL, even with muted casters, identical overlays and hidden names.
On September 10 2014 11:17 ROOTCatZ wrote: You're completely missing the point I'm trying to make again, I am not talking about playstyle of course everyone has different playstyles, im merely pointing out the gap in skill isn't as big as people think, and a game between two top forgeiners can be just as exciting and interesting as two top koreans, I've repeated this about 20 times now,
so exciting that the viewer count is abysmal, amirite?
On September 10 2014 13:08 ROOTCatZ wrote:
On September 10 2014 12:56 Wasaru wrote: Tune into Catz stream everyone.
It's like we're basically watching soulkey!
you're also missing the point completely
what point is he missing? You said you beat all the top level koreans pretty damn often, name dropping soO, PartinG, Solar, DRG..etc.
Let's give you the benefit of the doubt, and so it's fair to assume that watching you is like watching soulkey? Lol...
And if your point that the skill difference is so similar stands true, then why would there be a need for this region lock? And why is every bad foreigner advocating it desperately? Explain that one.
not sure you read my post at all, I've said plenty of times koreans are on average better, even much better than forgeiners, there's no debating that, and watching a stream / pov is completely different than watching casted match, I am saying that the difference in skill to a viewer shouldn't be noticeable, I know i'd have trouble myself telling a top forgeiner game from a top korean game if the games were blacked out, like I said in a different post, in sc2 ONE unit can make a huge difference in a fight, go open the unit tester and fight 2 mirror armys, and make one of them have ONE extra unit, by the end of the fight there should be a big difference made by that one unit, the army that had it should have not one but multiple remaining units as the one unit is able to do it's dps throughout the entire duration of the fight, Koreans in general are better mechanically, no argument there, to make things even more basic, if Flash or Soulkey can spend his money faster, drone or scv stack better, rally faster, whatever the case, it's very likely that they'll have more units than most if not all forgeiners, that ONE unit can decide the outcome of a game, a difference as sutile as ONE unit, it can be a VERY consistent difference, but its very sutile non the less, I don't think most people can tell differences this sutile ESPECIALLY in a broadcasted game as opposed to a replay, and I am confident forgeiner strategy is just as good as korean.
You're accusing the viewers of being idiots.
There's no way around that. We can tell the difference in skill level as spectators, if you don't believe that then that is a problem but it's definitely not anything substantial that I would stand behind in your position.
The average person is an idiot you know? Even pros agree that a majority of viewers wouldn't be able to tell the difference. (There was a discussion going on between carmac, targa and tlo and others I think)
Idiot is a medical term, just like retard. Most people don't fall into that category. People can be uninformed or ignorant without being stupid. I know jack shit about finger painting techniques, that doesn't make me an idiot.
It's amazing to me that all these players responded and none of them even mentioned the LCS: the obvious prototype for Blizzard's decision to region lock WCS. For those who don't know the acronym, it's the League of Legends WCS.
It's been said already: Starcraft's audience today largely consists of people who have little interest in the 'home scene,' and who just want to see the best players and the best games. The Sandisk Invitational proved that. For this audience, Blizzard's decision is utterly illogical. It excludes a dozen of the best players in NA, takes away highly coveted foreigner vs. Korean match-ups, and is guaranteed to result in lower quality games.
But Blizzard is looking further than the current audience. They are looking at LoL and Riot's LCS, where despite Korea being just as invincible as they are in Starcraft, millions tune in every week to watch NA and EU players play each other in their respective regions. Where Shoutcraft America failed miserably, NA and EU LCS sustain massive crowds and do not play second-fiddle to OGN, and their profits go to Riot, not KESPA.
Obviously, a great deal of LCS's success comes from the fact that LoL's player base simply outstrip Starcraft's by an order of magnitude. But when you look at the emotional attachment LCS fans have for their regions' teams despite these teams being outclassed by Koreans, and the extent to which they show up and jealously support said teams and players, and it's transparent that Riot has done a vastly greater job at promoting local players and teams, principally by region locking the scene for the bulk of the year and spending that time building up each region's teams' stories and personalities, and inviting each region's audiences to share in the joys, sorrows, and coming-of-age of those teams.
Such a task is infinitely easier when the players and teams are local, and Riot takes full advantage by fixating on narratives that are sympathetic to the audiences of those regions - for example, by telling the 'all-American' back stories of NA pros, by having them constantly speak their hearts out in interviews and reach out to the community, and by tolerating, at times even encouraging, drama between the teams and players.
Skill-wise, Koreans are a class above in both Starcraft and LoL. But whereas Starcraft developed in a direction of 'watching the best players,' which eventually just becomes 'watching the Koreans,' LoL has developed in a direction of both 'watching the best teams' and 'watching the teams in your own region.' That is to say, Starcraft has achieved international appeal while LoL has achieved both international appeal and regional appeal. From Blizzard's perspective, the former is cool, but the latter is awesome, because you don't have to share profits with KESPA, local players are a lot more attractive to local sponsors and media than imports, and the image of the game is vastly improved when it isn't seen as 'just another game only strange Asians play.' And importantly, having a passionate regional audience allows the region to sustain itself - to continue producing new players eager for the love of the fans, who do not have to beat the Koreans in order to achieve career success, which in turn ensures an ample supply of future regional pros instead of a tiny group of internationally competitive pros, shrinking in size every year.
The fact of the matter is, only by analyzing the success of the LCS are Blizzard's actions explicable. Regardless of the opinions of elitists, Riot has raised the bar when it comes to creating a passionate, professional, and sustainable eSport scene for their game. Whatever their faults, and whatever the end skill level of NA/EU pros, when it comes to marketing eSports to NA/EU audiences and creating a product they're able to get behind, Riot has no peer.
That ship already sailed. SC2 is never going to be as popular as LoL and WCS is never going to be as successful as LCS. The reason why nobody brings it up is because they are not comparable.
The basic context necessary for that success never existed for SC2.
I think it could be a good idea to let Korea have 4 GSL a year (each of them rewarding the same WCS points as every other WCS). The total WCS points would be similar, but the activity would be increased and the variance decreased, resulting in a fairer distribution of chances and WCS points.
Another idea to boost Korea into WCS rankings is to give WCS points for Proleague wins. I don't know what could be the fair amount, but it could be for example 25 WCS points, so Maru with his 30 wins would gain 750 WCS points. As the best performer is an ok reward I think, just like a tier2 tournament. If you count Playoffs wins it could be a little higher, reserved only for the best performing players. I think overall could be an interesting idea as the players would be not only competing for Proleague rewards but also for WCS points individually in every match, and that would motivate them even more. What do you think?
On September 10 2014 18:42 Brian333 wrote: That ship already sailed. SC2 is never going to be as popular as LoL and WCS is never going to be as successful as LCS. The reason why nobody brings it up is because they are not comparable.
The basic context necessary for that success never existed for SC2.
Blizzard obviously does not agree, and keep in mind that WCS is a prototype for future Blizzard eSports, including their own MOBA game.
I highly doubt that anyone at Blizzard is delusional enough to think that SC2 will somehow turn the tables on LoL in terms of popularity. Saying they obviously don't agree is a stupid statement. It doesn't take a genius to notice how different the fan bases and landscapes were for SC2 and LoL at their release, during their rise, and how different they continue to be.
As for setting up WCS in advance for Heroes, I don't think they've planned that yet and it's fairly obvious they haven't reached that stage yet. I'm in the Heroes alpha. It's still a very, very long ways off from any such discussion and the pace at which the game is developing doesn't leave me confident it will be a great game for a long while.
If anything, they have a game out right now that would benefit a lot more from having a proper tournament infrastructure legitimizing its status as an e-sport, Hearthstone. If you want to compare games, Hearthstone is much more comparable to LoL.
Giving points to Proleague might be the best way to compensate KeSPA players who can't attend smaller tournaments due to scheduling conflicts. It could also allocate points in much more even way among larger playerbase (around 4-5 players per team) in contrast to the "top few takes it all" of GSL/WCS.
Lets say a map win in PL grants you 20 points. This would have totaled 11100 points in this year making it almost equivalent of a single WCS tournament. However if we look at the stats for this year most players wouldn't get that much points.
As you can see this isn't a lot. Taking this into consideration even more points might be reasonable to make the point pool for the best players reflect atleast the structure of a tier 2 event. Naturally other scenarios could also work like giving top X players of each PL round some fixed amount of points. This however would most likely be a top heavy distribution and might tie players to PL even more (we had some players taking breaks this year to go to foreign events).
Thus the problem would be determining what is the right amount of points and how to divide them among the players. Even a small boost might help the very best to reach the finals. Also, from the current rules' point of view we have to remember that PL is not an open league. If I remember correctly to award points they should be accessible to everyone through qualifiers.
On September 10 2014 11:17 ROOTCatZ wrote: You're completely missing the point I'm trying to make again, I am not talking about playstyle of course everyone has different playstyles, im merely pointing out the gap in skill isn't as big as people think, and a game between two top forgeiners can be just as exciting and interesting as two top koreans, I've repeated this about 20 times now,
so exciting that the viewer count is abysmal, amirite?
On September 10 2014 13:08 ROOTCatZ wrote:
On September 10 2014 12:56 Wasaru wrote: Tune into Catz stream everyone.
It's like we're basically watching soulkey!
you're also missing the point completely
what point is he missing? You said you beat all the top level koreans pretty damn often, name dropping soO, PartinG, Solar, DRG..etc.
Let's give you the benefit of the doubt, and so it's fair to assume that watching you is like watching soulkey? Lol...
And if your point that the skill difference is so similar stands true, then why would there be a need for this region lock? And why is every bad foreigner advocating it desperately? Explain that one.
not sure you read my post at all, I've said plenty of times koreans are on average better, even much better than forgeiners, there's no debating that, and watching a stream / pov is completely different than watching casted match, I am saying that the difference in skill to a viewer shouldn't be noticeable, I know i'd have trouble myself telling a top forgeiner game from a top korean game if the games were blacked out, like I said in a different post, in sc2 ONE unit can make a huge difference in a fight, go open the unit tester and fight 2 mirror armys, and make one of them have ONE extra unit, by the end of the fight there should be a big difference made by that one unit, the army that had it should have not one but multiple remaining units as the one unit is able to do it's dps throughout the entire duration of the fight, Koreans in general are better mechanically, no argument there, to make things even more basic, if Flash or Soulkey can spend his money faster, drone or scv stack better, rally faster, whatever the case, it's very likely that they'll have more units than most if not all forgeiners, that ONE unit can decide the outcome of a game, a difference as sutile as ONE unit, it can be a VERY consistent difference, but its very sutile non the less, I don't think most people can tell differences this sutile ESPECIALLY in a broadcasted game as opposed to a replay, and I am confident forgeiner strategy is just as good as korean.
You're accusing the viewers of being idiots.
There's no way around that. We can tell the difference in skill level as spectators, if you don't believe that then that is a problem but it's definitely not anything substantial that I would stand behind in your position.
I think it is the job of the commentators to point out extraordinary plays. So even if the average viewer cannot figure out the difference, the caster should be the one doing it for him/her. Of course the caster can always fake it, but that just doesn't feel honest.
On September 10 2014 11:17 ROOTCatZ wrote: You're completely missing the point I'm trying to make again, I am not talking about playstyle of course everyone has different playstyles, im merely pointing out the gap in skill isn't as big as people think, and a game between two top forgeiners can be just as exciting and interesting as two top koreans, I've repeated this about 20 times now,
so exciting that the viewer count is abysmal, amirite?
On September 10 2014 13:08 ROOTCatZ wrote:
On September 10 2014 12:56 Wasaru wrote: Tune into Catz stream everyone.
It's like we're basically watching soulkey!
you're also missing the point completely
what point is he missing? You said you beat all the top level koreans pretty damn often, name dropping soO, PartinG, Solar, DRG..etc.
Let's give you the benefit of the doubt, and so it's fair to assume that watching you is like watching soulkey? Lol...
And if your point that the skill difference is so similar stands true, then why would there be a need for this region lock? And why is every bad foreigner advocating it desperately? Explain that one.
not sure you read my post at all, I've said plenty of times koreans are on average better, even much better than forgeiners, there's no debating that, and watching a stream / pov is completely different than watching casted match, I am saying that the difference in skill to a viewer shouldn't be noticeable, I know i'd have trouble myself telling a top forgeiner game from a top korean game if the games were blacked out, like I said in a different post, in sc2 ONE unit can make a huge difference in a fight, go open the unit tester and fight 2 mirror armys, and make one of them have ONE extra unit, by the end of the fight there should be a big difference made by that one unit, the army that had it should have not one but multiple remaining units as the one unit is able to do it's dps throughout the entire duration of the fight, Koreans in general are better mechanically, no argument there, to make things even more basic, if Flash or Soulkey can spend his money faster, drone or scv stack better, rally faster, whatever the case, it's very likely that they'll have more units than most if not all forgeiners, that ONE unit can decide the outcome of a game, a difference as sutile as ONE unit, it can be a VERY consistent difference, but its very sutile non the less, I don't think most people can tell differences this sutile ESPECIALLY in a broadcasted game as opposed to a replay, and I am confident forgeiner strategy is just as good as korean.
You're accusing the viewers of being idiots.
There's no way around that. We can tell the difference in skill level as spectators, if you don't believe that then that is a problem but it's definitely not anything substantial that I would stand behind in your position.
I watched Happy vs Grubby yesterday. Happy was supply blocked every 30 seconds and Grubby forgot thermal lance for 25 minutes, and that's obviously not the worse of what they did. But hey, the game was "awesome" because it had nukes and shit, right? What I'm saying is that foreigner games can be entertaining in their sloppy kind of way, but if you're looking for near-perfect plays clashing against one another, look elsewhere.
Edit: And I'm pretty sure Flash would have had 40 supply more than Happy at minute 16-17. Not one unit. Also, saying that foreigner strategy is as good as korean strategy is a farce. That's like me saying that I drive my bike as well as Hamilton drives his F1. When you're foreigners and didn't put the same amount of effort to perfect mechanics, you don't get to say that you're strategically as good, you just get to die miserably under a swarm of well-controlled units before you got to show that cool game sense. And that's even assuming that foreigners DO have an equal sense of strategy, which I also doubt. It's irrelevant anyway.
There's no way around that. We can tell the difference in skill level as spectators, if you don't believe that then that is a problem but it's definitely not anything substantial that I would stand behind in your position.
I think it is the job of the commentators to point out extraordinary plays. So even if the average viewer cannot figure out the difference, the caster should be the one doing it for him/her. Of course the caster can always fake it, but that just doesn't feel honest.
If you paid any attention to the casting you would know this is happening all the time allready.
Was Happy not Bunny That would never happen to Bunny I wouldn't have thought, but Happy has this uncanny ability at times to just fall way behind for no reason. I'm someone who has never disliked watching foreign games, always found it enjoyable. Especially the European scene I've followed closely, so I'm not one of those "I ONLY watch Koreans" omgomgomg people, but yeh I still think it's really easy to tell the difference most of the time :S
On September 10 2014 13:32 lichter wrote: I actually agree that 80% wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but Catz is overstating his opinion. Giving specific examples of players and matches, such as this Huk vs Check game, or Snute vs Flash, or any other matchup doesn't prove any point, one way or another. The mean level of play is what matters, since obviously there will be duds and great games from all regions. The fact is, the standard of play in Korea is higher. Most of the time, that means better games.
However, for casual audiences level of play doesn't matter as much. All that matters is their enjoyment of matches, and that is determined by more than just skill level. Skill, circumstances, and the players involved (local favorites, etc) all matter to a person's enjoyment. That's why the "decreased skill level = decreased viewers" argument likely won't hold. If it does, it definitely won't have a linear relationship.
The problem is, he is arguing this point on TL. The posters most likely to reply watch more games, play more ladder, and have different priorities watching a game. Whether their understanding of skill level is real or delusional is beside the point; their opinion on skill level affects their enjoyment of the game. Just as many casual fans choose to watch games because of their favorite local heroes, many on TL watch specific players expecting higher level play. Whether or not they actually understand all the depths of skill on display is irrelevant; the fact is the skill level in Korean tournaments is higher, and that knowledge and expectation affects how they enjoy the games. It's entirely subjective, and the reason is no less legitimate than watching someone because he comes from the same country.
However true it is that most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between top foreigners and middling Koreans and that the gap is slowly closing, you are preaching to the wrong choir.
Agreed Lichter. The main problem is that TL is made up of the most hard of SC2 fans, but does not make up the majority of the 10-14k or more that tune in each night. But some folks think that the active members of TL make up the majority of the people that watch SC2(which if you think about the numbers, there is no way)
On September 10 2014 18:32 Azarkon wrote: It's been said already: Starcraft's audience today largely consists of people who have little interest in the 'home scene,' and who just want to see the best players and the best games. The Sandisk Invitational proved that. For this audience, Blizzard's decision is utterly illogical. It excludes a dozen of the best players in NA, takes away highly coveted foreigner vs. Korean match-ups, and is guaranteed to result in lower quality games.
Largely ? I'm not so certain. Look at Nationwars for example, there were no koreans, the players were not the absolute best and ... yet it was a great success. However to be fair I think in both cases these two tournaments were alone, the audience did not have to be split between two major competitions so it's hard to tell.
Personally when only koreans are left in a tournament my interest drops a lot, to the point I often turn the stream off, unless there are players I like to see. In that regard region lock, even with visas (and thus guranteeing a relatively stable presence of those players in the local scene), is a great thing.
Well, for example we're in the situation where Classic, a champion of the toughest region, might not make it to Blizzcon this year. I don't think GSL is the hardest, I think it's all pretty similar. I think non-Korean wins should be recognized all the same.
Haha I'm not so sure about that but you can't argue with the soOjwa I guess.
What I take home from this thread is that it doesn't matter what the players say, everyone is just picking cherries for their own particular arguments.
About what CatZ said I would have mostly agreed for the longest time. But ever since HotS and KeSPA, I think Korean games are noticeably superior. This also conincides with the Korean domination throughout all of 2013. In games between Foreigners the games are much more reliant on build order advantages and single mistakes that decide the game, Koreans have become much more resilient to them. By the way, in my opinion this is a game design flaw: The game should be balanced for high-level play but even on lower level games the game should be not so dependent on build order advantages or execution "luck". That influences both watching and playing the game.
CatZ didn't call the majority of viewers idiots. To exaggerate and put words into the contrary position is very poor discussion culture and unnecessarily weakens one's own points. Look, 10% of all players are Diamond, 2% are Masters! Our default assumption is that everybody is at least Diamond but that is simply not true. It's like in every other sports: 80% or more have little idea of the high-level details. They notice things like when the game is pacy or slow, but they don't know whether that's because the defence is shitty.
Furthermore, there are two ways to watch SC2. Looking at it analytically or watching it purely for enjoyment. Someone that watches more for enjoyment normally eats the casters' words without thinking twice. And that is more or less independent of skill level. In enjoyment mode, I do not bother to watch for mistakes, it is mostly about how entertaining and thrilling a match is.
Personally, watching on a stream I totally go into enjoyment mode. When I watch ingame I totally go into analytical mode. Too bad there is no live ingame observing for pro games.
Some people argue that only the hardcore people are left and Blizzard should hence cater to them. But their job isn't to satisfy an ever shrinking number of people. If Blizzard accepted the fact that the can only draw in the hardcore crowd anymore, WCS would close shop tomorrow.
//
By the way, I don't get why people use Shoutcraft America as the prime example for disaster. It wasn't that. The first Shoutcraft America performed better than WCS AM on the same days despite it being, literally, unwatchable at times (due to TB's Internet connection problems of multiple hours).
The second Shoutcraft America was plagued by forfeits and was overshadowed by Jaedong vs Scarlett on Northcon (first Jaedong premier victory vs only foreign premier victory of 2013 storyline). TB called it a failure concerning immediate ROI of the single sponsor that offered service only in USA despite half the viewership being outside of that.
I am not trying to talk them up to be successes by any means, but they weren't the same kind of financial disaster WCS AM under MLG and NASL were.
However, for casual audiences level of play doesn't matter as much. All that matters is their enjoyment of matches, and that is determined by more than just skill level. Skill, circumstances, and the players involved (local favorites, etc) all matter to a person's enjoyment. That's why the "decreased skill level = decreased viewers" argument likely won't hold. If it does, it definitely won't have a linear relationship.
The determination of region lock or not should not be based on whether the entertainment value changes or not, but how it will affect viewer numbers. If what you care about is whether the games in them selves are entertaining there is no reason in the first place to have a WCS system. The same thing can be accomplished by online-streams. Thus, it has to be about maximizing viewer numbers.
Given that it's quite obvious that Koreans are simply better, you cannot deceive players into thinking that these random NA players are of the highest-caliber, and viewers are - in general - much less interested in watching the 25th best NA player battle it out against another unknown dude. They much rather prefer to watch the top 5/10 NA players vs koreans, even if the entertainment value of the games are the same.
Thus the whole "can't tell the difference"-argument completley misses the point. Compared to real sports, this would be like arguing that I as a dane would be just as happy to watch the Austrian football league as the CHL or premier league because I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Obviously that's simply not true. Perceived skill-difference is what matters.
On September 10 2014 11:17 ROOTCatZ wrote: You're completely missing the point I'm trying to make again, I am not talking about playstyle of course everyone has different playstyles, im merely pointing out the gap in skill isn't as big as people think, and a game between two top forgeiners can be just as exciting and interesting as two top koreans, I've repeated this about 20 times now,
so exciting that the viewer count is abysmal, amirite?
On September 10 2014 13:08 ROOTCatZ wrote:
On September 10 2014 12:56 Wasaru wrote: Tune into Catz stream everyone.
It's like we're basically watching soulkey!
you're also missing the point completely
what point is he missing? You said you beat all the top level koreans pretty damn often, name dropping soO, PartinG, Solar, DRG..etc.
Let's give you the benefit of the doubt, and so it's fair to assume that watching you is like watching soulkey? Lol...
And if your point that the skill difference is so similar stands true, then why would there be a need for this region lock? And why is every bad foreigner advocating it desperately? Explain that one.
not sure you read my post at all, I've said plenty of times koreans are on average better, even much better than forgeiners, there's no debating that, and watching a stream / pov is completely different than watching casted match, I am saying that the difference in skill to a viewer shouldn't be noticeable, I know i'd have trouble myself telling a top forgeiner game from a top korean game if the games were blacked out, like I said in a different post, in sc2 ONE unit can make a huge difference in a fight, go open the unit tester and fight 2 mirror armys, and make one of them have ONE extra unit, by the end of the fight there should be a big difference made by that one unit, the army that had it should have not one but multiple remaining units as the one unit is able to do it's dps throughout the entire duration of the fight, Koreans in general are better mechanically, no argument there, to make things even more basic, if Flash or Soulkey can spend his money faster, drone or scv stack better, rally faster, whatever the case, it's very likely that they'll have more units than most if not all forgeiners, that ONE unit can decide the outcome of a game, a difference as sutile as ONE unit, it can be a VERY consistent difference, but its very sutile non the less, I don't think most people can tell differences this sutile ESPECIALLY in a broadcasted game as opposed to a replay, and I am confident forgeiner strategy is just as good as korean.
You're accusing the viewers of being idiots.
There's no way around that. We can tell the difference in skill level as spectators, if you don't believe that then that is a problem but it's definitely not anything substantial that I would stand behind in your position.
There's no reason to act offended. He's saying that he himself would have difficulty. It's arrogant and it's absurd to think you or the average viewer know the game better than Catz that you'd so easily be able to.
Pro player have more technical knowledge, but that's not the same as saying they are smarter or more perceptive. If you ever hear any pro sports interview regarding strategy and tactics, they usually comes off sound dumber than a doorbell. The fact that they can execute better does necessarily means they have better ability of observing.
On September 10 2014 22:16 SinCitta wrote: CatZ didn't call the majority of viewers idiots. To exaggerate and put words into the contrary position is very poor discussion culture and unnecessarily weakens one's own points. Look, 10% of all players are Diamond, 2% are Masters! Our default assumption is that everybody is at least Diamond but that is simply not true. It's like in every other sports: 80% or more have little idea of the high-level details. They notice things like when the game is pacy or slow, but they don't know whether that's because the defence is shitty.
So you are saying that you can't tell apart MLS and EPL, because you never played football at high level?
Catz is off his fucking rocker if he thinks a ro32 game in WCS NA is anywhere near the level of WCS KR ro32. Even WCS EU has some pretty off-the-rails bad games in the ro32.
On September 10 2014 22:16 SinCitta wrote: CatZ didn't call the majority of viewers idiots. To exaggerate and put words into the contrary position is very poor discussion culture and unnecessarily weakens one's own points. Look, 10% of all players are Diamond, 2% are Masters! Our default assumption is that everybody is at least Diamond but that is simply not true. It's like in every other sports: 80% or more have little idea of the high-level details. They notice things like when the game is pacy or slow, but they don't know whether that's because the defence is shitty.
So you are saying that you can't tell apart MLS and EPL, because you never played football at high level?
At one point, I put all my text into one paragraph so people stop misquoting. There is a paragraph before that that states that Korean play has been visibly superior since HotS, contradicting CatZ (so yes, they can tell apart MLS and EPL). The next paragraph puts that into perspective and states that independent of skill, people look at games with different objectives in mind, blurring the perception of skill. In other words, it's not that they can't tell skill gaps apart, but that they don't care and rather want to enjoy the games.
The paragraph you are quoting tries to convey the message that viewers aren't idiots independent of the fact whether they can or cannot tell apart the difference between Korean and Foreigners. And that skill relative between players is clearer for everyone to see than absolute level of skill of both players (so no, MLS should not disband).
I will be happy to see european players in RO8 WCS EU and also NA players in RO8 WCS AM. Even if some, like last year.. we always had like 3 4 europeans, also NA had some non koreans. This year was a disaster, especially for NA. I am not upset at all with koreans living in a region and playing there.. like eu koreans or polt and violet.. they moved to US.. stay there.. and I`m pretty sure they may stay there even if not for SC2. But I`m annoyed by the koreans who came for the easy money, like San, PigBaby, Hearth, Alicia.. and many others. Also I can understand the logic of Taeja and Jaedong not playing in korea, cause they represent the 2 stars of the most famous foreign teams, TL and EG, so the foreigners wants to see them live and playing at watchable hours. Anyhow things will get mixed up a bit next year, which I feel can be only a good thing. Also I need to say that I respect Innovation and Dear for returning to korea/korean teams soon.
On September 10 2014 22:16 SinCitta wrote: CatZ didn't call the majority of viewers idiots. To exaggerate and put words into the contrary position is very poor discussion culture and unnecessarily weakens one's own points. Look, 10% of all players are Diamond, 2% are Masters! Our default assumption is that everybody is at least Diamond but that is simply not true. It's like in every other sports: 80% or more have little idea of the high-level details. They notice things like when the game is pacy or slow, but they don't know whether that's because the defence is shitty.
So you are saying that you can't tell apart MLS and EPL, because you never played football at high level?
At one point, I put all my text into one paragraph so people stop misquoting. There is a paragraph before that that states that Korean play has been visibly superior since HotS, contradicting CatZ (so yes, they can tell apart MLS and EPL). The next paragraph puts that into perspective and states that independent of skill, people look at games with different objectives in mind, blurring the perception of skill. In other words, it's not that they can't tell skill gaps apart, but that they don't care and rather want to enjoy the games.
The paragraph you are quoting tries to convey the message that viewers aren't idiots independent of the fact whether they can or cannot tell apart the difference between Korean and Foreigners. And that skill relative between players is clearer for everyone to see than absolute level of skill of both players (so no, MLS should not disband).
No, that's not what you said at all. What you said is that "First paragraph: I can tell the difference between KeSPA and NA. Second paragraph: but since most people are not master or diamond, they can't." It might not be what you meant, but that's the message you conveyed, because that paragraph is absolutely nonsense and have no place in any argument. Individual ability to play a sport or game have little correlation with ability to observer and understand the same, otherwise all the coach and manager of pro sports that never played at highest level might as well just all quit now.
I don't see why the average viewers ability to tell the difference between Korean and non-Korean play is relevant to the discussion about region lock. For a start, I think to say people want to watch "Koreans" is wrong. People want to watch the best players and the best players happen to be Korean, as proven by tournament results. By removing the Koreans from WCS America, you are robbing the audience from watching the best players in that region, which leads them to enjoying the games less because they know they could be enjoying an objectively better product, regardless of whether they can perceive the difference or not.
On September 10 2014 23:39 jarod wrote: I will be happy to see european players in RO8 WCS EU and also NA players in RO8 WCS AM. Even if some, like last year.. we always had like 3 4 europeans, also NA had some non koreans. This year was a disaster, especially for NA. I am not upset at all with koreans living in a region and playing there.. like eu koreans or polt and violet.. they moved to US.. stay there.. and I`m pretty sure they may stay there even if not for SC2. But I`m annoyed by the koreans who came for the easy money, like San, PigBaby, Hearth, Alicia.. and many others. Also I can understand the logic of Taeja and Jaedong not playing in korea, cause they represent the 2 stars of the most famous foreign teams, TL and EG, so the foreigners wants to see them live and playing at watchable hours. Anyhow things will get mixed up a bit next year, which I feel can be only a good thing. Also I need to say that I respect Innovation and Dear for returning to korea/korean teams soon.
The problem with this type of logic is thar your only looking at Ro8 where only the very best foreigners will play. But what about ro32 and ro16 (?) Good luck getting viewers to watch ro32 group stagess if it consisted of only NA players.
More than "level of play" the biggest difference between Korean and foreign scene games from a fans perspective is that you're more likely to see innovative strategies in Korean games instead of highly canned build orders. This is why proleague tends to have the most entertaining games IMO. The format allows for players to prepare highly specific builds and not play standard. On the other hand, in NA and EU, the best players just stick to a safe style because there's little incentive for them to debut something new, if thier standard style essentially garuntees them a win versus weaker competition.
Basically what I'm saying is that Korea has a more dynamic metagame which makes for more entertaining games. Region lock might help, might not. Its hard to tell.
Isn't Taeja only 19? Seems a bit young to start his military service, when he's raking in so much prize money still.
The bottom line is, World Championship Series won't represent the best competition of the best players in the world. GSL's Ro32 would have way more talented, skilled, and dedicated players. This is what the "I don't want to watch more faceless Koreans"mongers wanted, lets see how it plays out. As for me, this de-legitimizes the scene as a whole. If the players don't care about having the best possible competition, why should I spend the time to watch it? Instead of casually turning on WCS NA when it is on, I'll just keep watching Proleague VODs like BW days.
And about CatZ and his so called "skill gap" it is BS. The skill gap between the "breaking out" candidates in NA and fringe Code B players is closer to NFL players to high school All American teams than NFL to AP All American Collegiate players. Not to mention many of them are 1.5 or 2nd generation Korean immigrants anyways. As to how much it affects viewership and how the great white Jesus "will save NA Sc2" is up to you to fantasize about.
The fact that people can not recognize the difference between Soulkey and CatZ without looking at their nicknames in a game, doesn't mean that people don't prefer too watch the better play anyway. As someone said here, I am not an expert in Boxing and I can not tell the specifics differences between the top 5 boxers in the world and the top 5 boxers of the city I live. But I would obviously prefer to watch a fight between the top 5 boxer than the championship of the city I live, because I KNOW they are doing awesome things and they would humiliate boxers like those from my city.
As CatZ admitted, a top korean GM could point the differences between soO and Nerchio skill in a game, so, I prefer to watch soO because I KNOW he is doing awesome things, while Nerchio is doing things that maybe EVEN ME could do, or, at least, he is doing not-so-bizarre-things.
That is the reason I love to watch top koreans against foreigners (except snute), because it became evident the gap in skill, sense of game etc.
I would never watch WCS NA without the koreans, because I KNOW (by experience) that the skill level would be low, and that's the same reason and don't watch a box competition from the city a live.
On September 10 2014 23:44 Goofinator wrote: I don't see why the average viewers ability to tell the difference between Korean and non-Korean play is relevant to the discussion about region lock. For a start, I think to say people want to watch "Koreans" is wrong. People want to watch the best players and the best players happen to be Korean, as proven by tournament results. By removing the Koreans from WCS America, you are robbing the audience from watching the best players in that region, which leads them to enjoying the games less because they know they could be enjoying an objectively better product, regardless of whether they can perceive the difference or not.
True, i think most people want to watch the best players, regadless of being able to tell the difference in player skills. But we can still watch the koreans in GSL and other tournaments, since only WCS AM and EU are changing. Hopefully the koreans will keep traveling to play. And i disagree that better players = better games, specially when the level of play is high anyway and the skill gap is not huge. Every time we have the best games thread i sense some bias towards selecting the games from the best players, excluding highly entertaining games from players of lower skill, less famous or less appreciated. I remember how much i enjoyed HomeStory Cup, mostly for the group stage games between foreigners that are not Scarlett or Snute (i love them btw). Some people are missing great games and a ton of fun wearing "full foreigner" and "full NA" glasses.
On September 10 2014 06:52 SFDuality wrote: Taeja laying down the smack. What a time for him to retire, too. Fans want to see him in GSL, Code S players want to play him in GSL, Blizzard implements a region lock that basically forces him to play in GSL, and he fucking retires.
On September 11 2014 01:25 ppp wrote: What about chinese players?
They will play in WCS AM, like this year. But I hope that Blizz will get rid of the seperate qualifiers for the variopus regions that fall under WCS AM and just have qualifiers amongst all of them (though latency might be an issue here).
The NA scene is currently not as skilled as the Korean scene. The problem WCS introduced was it killed off most other NA tournaments besides the Redbull events, and flooded the NA scene with Koreans who play on the Korean ladder but play WCS NA. This meant the NA scene had no potential for skill growth. This meant there were fewer NA pros. This meant the audience for NA sc2 shrank because people like to root for the home town hero (the most moneyed and popular players in early sc2, Huk and Idra, were not the most skilled. They were from NA). Now that the region is locked, the quality of games in WCS NA will decrease but the skill of NA pros will increase. Blizzard is taking a gambit: they are hoping NA pros will take this opportunity to increase their skill, now that they have an achievable goal. Ultimately, if the gambit pays off, we will end up with a vibrant and relatively skillful NA sc2 scene. If it doesn't, wcs na will just be a joke, but we can still watch plenty of high level sc2 in wcs eu, wcs kr and everywhere else. But if the gambit does pay off, we should see an increase in foreign viewership, without a decline in korean viewership (which is dependent mostly on proleague and gsl, not randos from axiom competing in wcs na). This is good for the scene.
I would never watch WCS NA without the koreans, because I KNOW (by experience) that the skill level would be low, and that's the same reason and don't watch a box competition from the city a live.
(sorry my english)
Why do you watch WCS NA at all then? It isn't the highest skill level tournament right now. That's GSL. If you prefer to watch the best sc2, where best means highest skilled, you should have always been watching GSL and wcs na should always have been a backwater.
the problem is not that GSL gives not enough points - the problem is Korea SC2 scene is small compared to a whole continent like Europe - and its not easy to do Tournaments with Kespa.
On September 11 2014 01:49 Oreo7 wrote: The NA scene is currently not as skilled as the Korean scene.
true
The problem WCS introduced was it killed off most other NA tournaments besides the Redbull events, and flooded the NA scene with Koreans who play on the Korean ladder but play WCS NA.
WCS NA did not kill off MLG, WCS NA was supposed to give NASL a focal point.
This meant the NA scene had no potential for skill growth.
false, tough korean competition helps close the skill gap between Korea and foreign land. Snute and other legitimate foreigners have said as much, as well as Koreans themselves.
This meant there were fewer NA pros.
the bad players indeed left the scene, the truly good players stayed to compete.
This meant the audience for NA sc2 shrank because people like to root for the home town hero
the audience for SC2 generally speaking has gone down over time, not just NA. someone had numbers posted somewhere, not very precise I know, but there you have it.
(the most moneyed and popular players in early sc2, Huk and Idra, were not the most skilled. They were from NA).
false. HuK is still in WCS AM today, competing with Koreigners. he's legitimately good and very consistent. Idra was one of the best foreigners in the world from 2010-2012, notice the amount of first place wins he has as well as deep GSL runs.
Now that the region is locked, the quality of games in WCS NA will decrease but the skill of NA pros will increase.
this is balderdash. if NA "pros" require less competition to play better, then they're not good at all. there is no way in hell that WCS AM is going to get stronger with skilled players being kicked out of it. this is absolutely ridiculous.
Blizzard is taking a gambit: they are hoping NA pros will take this opportunity to increase their skill, now that they have an achievable goal.
if someone isn't able to increase skill when the competition is fierce, they're not able to do it when that competition is gone. NA pros won't get better, they just won't have strong players who are better than them to compete with. so they won't lose as much. that simple. NA to EU is perfectly fine in terms of latency, so there's no reason that NA players can't play on EU.
Ultimately, if the gambit pays off, we will end up with a vibrant and relatively skillful NA sc2 scene. If it doesn't, wcs na will just be a joke, but we can still watch plenty of high level sc2 in wcs eu, wcs kr and everywhere else.
so you're saying that the NA scene could very well die? how is that positive? about about the legitimately good NA players?
But if the gambit does pay off, we should see an increase in foreign viewership, without a decline in korean viewership (which is dependent mostly on proleague and gsl, not randos from axiom competing in wcs na).
the viewership might increase at first, but in the long run, the NA scene is going to get really bad and no one is going to watch their local heros play between each other when they know they're actually small fry compared to the big Korean fish
This is good for the scene.
only if blizzard supports these changes with things that make sense. e.g. help relieve pressure on the Korean scene. help players obtain visas. and so on.
On September 10 2014 06:13 Silvana wrote: I think CatZ paid soO to say what he said
Seriously, the three regions similar in difficulty? I want whatever he is smoking.
Now really seriously, couldn't be that he meant something else... like... "you should be recognized and rewarded in the same way in all regions regardless of difficulty"? Otherwise I really don't get it, if GSL wasn't way more difficult why would all these Koreans fly to other regions...?
On September 10 2014 22:55 Tenks wrote: Catz is off his fucking rocker if he thinks a ro32 game in WCS NA is anywhere near the level of WCS KR ro32. Even WCS EU has some pretty off-the-rails bad games in the ro32.
His point is that they might not be equal in skill level but that they can be equally exciting.
On September 10 2014 22:55 Tenks wrote: Catz is off his fucking rocker if he thinks a ro32 game in WCS NA is anywhere near the level of WCS KR ro32. Even WCS EU has some pretty off-the-rails bad games in the ro32.
His point is that they might not be equal in skill level but that they can be equally exciting.
It's really not that hard, sweetie.
Yes, I agree.
Watching Neeb getting obliterated tonight will be very exciting!
You guys are getting so bent out of shape about some comments that are basically true. Maybe he took it to an extreme by saying you "can't tell the difference," but what he means is - the difference isn't that huge, and it's not big enough to detract from your enjoyment. He's right.
The Koreans in WCS NA are inferior to the ones in Korea, right? I'd rather watch less skilled foreigners than less skilled Koreans any day.
Also, it's not like there will be zero Koreans in other regions. It just means they have to move there, and actually contribute toward improving the scene. Instead of just talking all the money and WCS points and flying back home.
As for Wc3, the Europeans had a solid player base which didn't really decline, but the NA scene was kinda dead with just a handful of good players, like it is now. Maybe Americans just don't like RTS very much. I don't think this change will help the NA scene much.
Hoping that not too many Koreans will retire, but surely many will.
On September 11 2014 03:36 Sunshinewalker wrote: Sweet! I might watch some starcraft again after one year of dota if a foreigner has a chance of winning a tournament again.
I'm with you. It will be nice to have the league be a little more focused on the local players. Very excited for 2015 WCS.
I want Catz to get one of his friends to straight up make a tournament and lie about who's playing. Say its like some special show match between soO and Pigbaby. And then go "we have an announcement to make, this was actually Huk vs. Neeb" muahahaha! I seriously would like to see that to test his theory. Totalbiscuit could probably pull it off without people the wiser.
@Incognoto how can you seriously hold that opinion that there are all of these NA pros who are just practicing with Koreans to get skilled when Taeja himself joked "first there would have to be NA pros" or something like that? Your faith that NA pros a) exist besides like 5 players and b) have any more skill to gain in 2 years, seems pretty delusional.
I think NA is basically a minor league with a bunch of hired David Beckman types from a foreign land, they were allowed to come to bring attention to us but now they need to go back and let a league... actually develop?
NA will for SURE have the least viewership but it would still be awesome to have a top 32 that best represents us. Everyone knows NA is like special class, but sometimes even special needs kids get to sit at the same table as the cool kids, its not unfair its just being decent to your fellow humans. At least NA pros have a chance to become peers to the Korean and European someday.
On September 11 2014 03:36 Sunshinewalker wrote: Sweet! I might watch some starcraft again after one year of dota if a foreigner has a chance of winning a tournament again.
Koreans are going to be dominant at Dota2 too in two years at most. It didn't take them long to become unbeatable in league, either. Koreans WILL become the best at any given game if KeSPA deems it worth their time to develop the scene. Keep jerking off to the meaningless wins before Koreans decide to come take all your money.
I'm a longtime Catz fan, but I don't agree with his assessment of foreign vs Korean skill. The mechanical level is very different. If that wasn't the case, wouldn't we see more foreign players win games?
Maybe normal viewers can't tell the difference, or can't point to the mistakes in one player's play vs another's. But when Taeja holds a roach/baneling allin while going greedy 3 CC's and hellions and 1 bunker, we know as viewers that he held that because he's fucking Taeja. We don't really get how he held it, and oftentimes neither do the casters; but the point is, that he did hold, and some random foreign Terran pro would have been crushed by that same allin. THAT is why we want to see the best.
In addition, while if you pick any random game and point out all the mistakes, maybe we can't tell the difference between Korean pro and NA GM. But there's enough games we see that we CAN tell why one player won vs another, even if it's not every game (or even a majority of the games). And for the record, I feel the main reason Catz does not do well in tournaments is due to his inferior mechanical skill compared to his opponents, which I find painfully obvious when watching his games. Clearly his strategic level is among the best, but his downfall always seems to be mechanics or nerves.
- Less Koreans = Less Epic Games - Less Koreans in NA/EU Server = No training partner for the best foreigner = More gap between EU/NA and KR - More WCS Points to Foreigner = Unfair points system (We all know that the top 16 for BlizzCon (and I think the top 25-30) is made only by koreans (counting the skill level). Creating a points system that gives more point to foreigner is just a way to say "ok, foreigners are not good, but we are finding a way to mask it") - Obviosly there are some foreigner out from this, and they are Snute, Scarlett, VortiX, and maybe Huk, Major and Bunny - they are the only foreigners that show that can be to korean's level
On September 11 2014 05:37 WoodLeagueAllStar wrote: I want Catz to get one of his friends to straight up make a tournament and lie about who's playing. Say its like some special show match between soO and Pigbaby. And then go "we have an announcement to make, this was actually Huk vs. Neeb" muahahaha! I seriously would like to see that to test his theory. Totalbiscuit could probably pull it off without people the wiser.
@Incognoto how can you seriously hold that opinion that there are all of these NA pros who are just practicing with Koreans to get skilled when Taeja himself joked "first there would have to be NA pros" or something like that? Your faith that NA pros a) exist besides like 5 players and b) have any more skill to gain in 2 years, seems pretty delusional.
I think NA is basically a minor league with a bunch of hired David Beckman types from a foreign land, they were allowed to come to bring attention to us but now they need to go back and let a league... actually develop?
NA will for SURE have the least viewership but it would still be awesome to have a top 32 that best represents us. Everyone knows NA is like special class, but sometimes even special needs kids get to sit at the same table as the cool kids, its not unfair its just being decent to your fellow humans. At least NA pros have a chance to become peers to the Korean and European someday.
I think most fans can tell the difference between a PvZ and a PvT.
On September 11 2014 03:39 hitpoint wrote: You guys are getting so bent out of shape about some comments that are basically true. Maybe he took it to an extreme by saying you "can't tell the difference," but what he means is - the difference isn't that huge, and it's not big enough to detract from your enjoyment. He's right.
The Koreans in WCS NA are inferior to the ones in Korea, right? I'd rather watch less skilled foreigners than less skilled Koreans any day.
And let me say it again, that's where the dishonesty comes from. We're not trading Heart for Neeb. We're keeping Neeb, that we already have, and trading Heart for people that are of a lower level than them. There is no equivalency between the people that we kick and the people that we'll get, because we already have the people that are equivalent. If you think the level of play won't drop, then you don't understand what we're trading.
You can certainly say that you think it will help NA, I don't know that. I think you're wrong but I don't think my opinion is more important than yours on the subject. You can certainly say that you'd rather watch NA players than koreans, that's up to you, we all have our preferences in what we watch. But to say that the level won't drop because top foreigners have the same level as middling koreans is a fallacy: the conclusion is right, but the premise is wrong.
wow i dont know if catz really believes all the things hes saying in this thread or if hes just delusional. The skill gap between Foreigners and koreans is so small that they win every tournament they go to and the washed up koreans absolutely dominate WCS NA and to a lesser degree WCS EU? I might not be able to tell the difference between most of the "foreign koreans" and top foreigners but when i watch GSL or proleague im pretty amazed at the top level of play. I sometimes say to myself holy crap that was amazing. If you dont think the skill gap between foreigners and koreans is astronomical just remember that we are comparing a small country (S korea) to the ENTIRE WORLD. If we compared on a country by country basis this argument would be laughable. The B-Teamers in korea would absolutely mop the floor with any other country.
On September 11 2014 00:11 prokofiev wrote: The fact that people can not recognize the difference between Soulkey and CatZ without looking at their nicknames in a game, doesn't mean that people don't prefer too watch the better play anyway. As someone said here, I am not an expert in Boxing and I can not tell the specifics differences between the top 5 boxers in the world and the top 5 boxers of the city I live. But I would obviously prefer to watch a fight between the top 5 boxer than the championship of the city I live, because I KNOW they are doing awesome things and they would humiliate boxers like those from my city.
As CatZ admitted, a top korean GM could point the differences between soO and Nerchio skill in a game, so, I prefer to watch soO because I KNOW he is doing awesome things, while Nerchio is doing things that maybe EVEN ME could do, or, at least, he is doing not-so-bizarre-things.
That is the reason I love to watch top koreans against foreigners (except snute), because it became evident the gap in skill, sense of game etc.
I would never watch WCS NA without the koreans, because I KNOW (by experience) that the skill level would be low, and that's the same reason and don't watch a box competition from the city a live.
(sorry my english)
that's a perfectly valid argument, I'm not debating against that stance
On September 11 2014 00:11 prokofiev wrote: The fact that people can not recognize the difference between Soulkey and CatZ without looking at their nicknames in a game, doesn't mean that people don't prefer too watch the better play anyway. As someone said here, I am not an expert in Boxing and I can not tell the specifics differences between the top 5 boxers in the world and the top 5 boxers of the city I live. But I would obviously prefer to watch a fight between the top 5 boxer than the championship of the city I live, because I KNOW they are doing awesome things and they would humiliate boxers like those from my city.
As CatZ admitted, a top korean GM could point the differences between soO and Nerchio skill in a game, so, I prefer to watch soO because I KNOW he is doing awesome things, while Nerchio is doing things that maybe EVEN ME could do, or, at least, he is doing not-so-bizarre-things.
That is the reason I love to watch top koreans against foreigners (except snute), because it became evident the gap in skill, sense of game etc.
I would never watch WCS NA without the koreans, because I KNOW (by experience) that the skill level would be low, and that's the same reason and don't watch a box competition from the city a live.
(sorry my english)
that's a perfectly valid argument, I'm not debating against that stance
Okay, so your main argument is that a region-locked gives foreigners the needed infastructure to go pro in Sc2? Wouldn't you say this is a bit too late? I mena you don't wanna make long-term investments into products that are gonna decline anyway.
First of all, it is too strange if 40%, 50% or more players in WCS NA are koreans. It's not correct.
I like the idea of region tournaments and then a world cup with the top players of each region. I think that's the idea of a world cup.
However, there should be some smart rules, like: the region of the world tournament winner (Korea, probably hahaha) might have more seats in the next edition ETC. I think it's a fair rule.
Teams need the money to invest into proper training structure and take a bigger role than just being an agency for players. Region lock is just a cop out, not a long term solution.
hey what do you know? someone addressed the elephant in the room
After reading what the players had to say, it gave me a itsy bitsy glim of hope who knows, I might even watch some SC2 after what, 15 months?
It's kind of funny seeing people pick the worst foreigners and then compare them to the best koreans as if that's exactly what the dividing line is between the two scenes.
avilo vs neeb is the na equivalent of soulkey vs rain I suppose.
On September 11 2014 10:16 Swift118 wrote: Oh well I guess it will be fun to watch Incontrol duke it out with Avilo next season in the ro32 WSC NA challenger league in 2015.
Having Avilo in Challenger means that no one is going to be doing LRs or watching the stream on Twitch.
On September 11 2014 10:16 Swift118 wrote: Oh well I guess it will be fun to watch Incontrol duke it out with Avilo next season in the ro32 WSC NA challenger league in 2015.
Having Avilo in Challenger means that no one is going to be doing LRs or watching the stream on Twitch.
Can you guys stop this extreme hate on another human, almost to the point of straight up discrimination of the guy. You can't pick an choose who you want in WCS, if a player gets in, you can't just hate on a person, that for sure does not promote North American growth.
That is such a hateful 100% wrong and incorrect statement. The only thing holding back the NA scene is the players themselves and lack of infrastructure. It's going to take a long long time for NA to grow.
On September 11 2014 10:16 Swift118 wrote: Oh well I guess it will be fun to watch Incontrol duke it out with Avilo next season in the ro32 WSC NA challenger league in 2015.
Having Avilo in Challenger means that no one is going to be doing LRs or watching the stream on Twitch.
Can you guys stop this extreme hate on another human, almost to the point of straight up discrimination of the guy. You can't pick an choose who you want in WCS, if a player gets in, you can't just hate on a person, that for sure does not promote North American growth.
That is such a hateful 100% wrong and incorrect statement. The only thing holding back the NA scene is the players themselves and lack of infrastructure. It's going to take a long long time for NA to grow.
It sure doesn't help that the SC2 fans on TL spend way to much time shitting on them every time an event isn't filled to the brim with Korean players.
On September 11 2014 10:16 Swift118 wrote: Oh well I guess it will be fun to watch Incontrol duke it out with Avilo next season in the ro32 WSC NA challenger league in 2015.
Having Avilo in Challenger means that no one is going to be doing LRs or watching the stream on Twitch.
Can you guys stop this extreme hate on another human, almost to the point of straight up discrimination of the guy. You can't pick an choose who you want in WCS, if a player gets in, you can't just hate on a person, that for sure does not promote North American growth.
That is such a hateful 100% wrong and incorrect statement. The only thing holding back the NA scene is the players themselves and lack of infrastructure. It's going to take a long long time for NA to grow.
It sure doesn't help that the SC2 fans on TL spend way to much time shitting on them every time an event isn't filled to the brim with Korean players.
a) That's not even true. Literally, that just does not happen. The majority of TL roots for the foreigner in most korean vs foreigner confrontation. b) Even if it were true, the part of TL that shits on players is usually into equal opportunity shitting. Whenever someone does badly you'll find someone to tell you how they knew he was terrible from the start. To assess that TL 'does that to foreigners' is just agenda driven. c) Saying that the level of play will drop in a noticeable fashion, which is in large part the only thing that's been argued in the last few pages, does not equal shitting on american players. d) I'm totally allowed to hate on a player if I want to. The key word was "hate", it's a feeling, I get to have that if I want to have that, whether the guy qualifies for something or whether he doesn't. If you don't agree, take it up to the Sniper antifans. e) Please don't take Avilo hate to equal american players hate, that would be insulting towards american players. f) "You can't pick and choose who you want in WCS", say the people who support kicking competitors out of WCS to the people who are against doing that.
On September 10 2014 08:49 BreAKerTV wrote: The part about the Koreans in Taiwan is B.S.
Allow me to explain: a lot of Koreans in Taiwan are capable of applying for visitor visas to compete in the TeSL circuit, but they are not capable of applying for resident visas to compete in the TeSL circuit. What is the difference?
In 2014, if a non-Taiwanese player wanted to compete in the WCS 2014 Taiwan / Hong Kong / Macao qualifiers, they would have to have a resident visa. And before anyone says anything about Sase, I must tell you all he was living a visa-free existence in Taiwan by leaving this country once every 90 days.
The players who are not a citizen of Taiwan, Hong Kong or Macau must send a scanned copy of their Residency Visa to tw-tournaments@blizzard.com for an evaluation of the residency status.
Unfortunately, the government of Taiwan does not recognize any form of eSports as legitimate enough to grant resident visas. Blizzard Taiwan explicitly stated that if a player wanted to compete in WCS Taiwan / Hong Kong / Macao qualifiers, the said player would have to have a resident visa to be eligible. So, I am an English teacher in Taiwan and I now hold a resident visa. That means I can enter the WCS America: Taiwan / Macao / Hong Kong qualifiers when they happen for next year.
And find no recourse in China either. I have asked Netease if it would be possible for even a Canadian-born Chinese player with Chinese Permanent Residence (aka equivalent to Chinese green card) to compete in that region, and they said no. Bottom line? Citizenship requirement for mainland China, and Legitimate Raison d'etre in Taiwan.
Good to know what the current policy is, since it will probably at least be that strict going forward. Are you sure it's that impossible for Koreans to get that kind of visa?
Sorry for the late reply, but to get that kind of residency (at least as a Korean national, mind you) there are three routes: 1) get married or 2) get a master's degree or 3) get an undergraduate degree and prove that you have at least two years of relevant industry experience to the line of work you are applying to do.
Of course #2 and #3 are both assuming that you need an ARC and not a PARC (U.S. Green Card equivalent) in order to enter the tournament.
Any other things you'd like to see Blizzard pay attention to in 2015? Hm, I'd like it if they'd try to get KeSPA players opinions when they're making balance patches. Like, have KeSPA send out a survey to all the players. I'd like it if they'd ask all of us our opinions. Also, when they're making new maps, I'd like it if they asked us our opinions before making them ladder maps. Finally, it would be great if we could have four or more GSLs a year. Three is too few T_T
Wait...what? Does this mean that we can no longer play on any other region as we can now?
If that means that, SEA would be as dead as ever. Finding games in SEA is pretty pathetic and hopeless...judging that sometimes you really have to wait SO long just to find a ladder game...
EPT
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![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/1415161718/MechaFreeza.jpg)
Bullshit. Yeah, I cannot tell the difference between individual Korean players and foreigners, but I definitely can tell the difference between Korean play and Foreigner play. Hell, this and the last week there were some WCS EU RO32 after GSL RO16. Do you really want to tell me that it was the same level of play? REALLY? SERIOUSLY?!
