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WCS AM will continue to include LatAm, Oceania/SEA, CN, and TW/HK/Macau, you can all stop freaking out about it. |
United States23455 Posts
On September 07 2014 06:07 Faust852 wrote:
The funny thing is, WCS NA will look like shit and instead of having 8/8 koreans in ro8, we will have 5 chineses guys, Polt who will win every time, Violet and Major.
I think the Ro8 will probably look like Polt/Violet/SuNo (who I think is getting a visa now)/Scarlett/MajOr/maybe another NA guy/Chinese player/Taiwanese player
on average, at least until more Korean players get their visas
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On September 07 2014 06:04 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2014 05:59 yido wrote:
What are those psychological impulses from? Racism.
no, you're confused. racism is about prejudice and institutional discrimination. you can't call an electrical impulse built on eons of evolution "racist;" that's an absurd misappropriation of the term. it's a fact that it's easier to establish a rapport or friendship with someone who has shared the same experiences as you, and someone from a different culture is able to share less on that level. if i spoke korean and frequented korean social media, i'm sure i would feel the same way about all korean players as i do about those who share my nationality - and indeed, most koreans who migrate and learn english are VERY VERY well received by pro-foreigner hardliners (polt, violet, etc). it's simply an accessibility issue. koreans are not as accessible to me emotionally as americans because of the realities of political and geographical and cultural borders. Show nested quote +On September 07 2014 05:59 yido wrote:How is college sports or minor league have to do with this discussion? How about learning how to punctuate correctly before spitting out garbled response? because the point is repeatedly being made that it's "bad for the game" to watch or encourage or enjoy games that are of a lower caliber of skill. college and minor league sports are sport competitions of a categorically reduced skill level which millions of people enjoy, and i'm wondering if the same logic applies to them. as for punctuation: i learned that a long time ago. i also learned a long time ago that if you're not writing an essay it doesn't really matter how you format your text in casual conversation 
Seems more like another excuse for racism tbh. Classify it, justify it, rephrase it however you want. The bias seems like it is from a primitive instinct, at least call it xenophobia.
College and Minor leagues are there to produce talent for the next level. Sure people watch them and love them but it isn't the "premiere tournament/league" of their respective sport. They are developmental programs that people come and watch, just like High school football programs. The only difference between them and primary education inter-mural play, is the salary that they get paid. Thanks for the clarification.
Fair enough about the punctuation.
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On September 07 2014 06:18 yido wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2014 06:04 brickrd wrote:On September 07 2014 05:59 yido wrote:
What are those psychological impulses from? Racism.
no, you're confused. racism is about prejudice and institutional discrimination. you can't call an electrical impulse built on eons of evolution "racist;" that's an absurd misappropriation of the term. it's a fact that it's easier to establish a rapport or friendship with someone who has shared the same experiences as you, and someone from a different culture is able to share less on that level. if i spoke korean and frequented korean social media, i'm sure i would feel the same way about all korean players as i do about those who share my nationality - and indeed, most koreans who migrate and learn english are VERY VERY well received by pro-foreigner hardliners (polt, violet, etc). it's simply an accessibility issue. koreans are not as accessible to me emotionally as americans because of the realities of political and geographical and cultural borders. On September 07 2014 05:59 yido wrote:How is college sports or minor league have to do with this discussion? How about learning how to punctuate correctly before spitting out garbled response? because the point is repeatedly being made that it's "bad for the game" to watch or encourage or enjoy games that are of a lower caliber of skill. college and minor league sports are sport competitions of a categorically reduced skill level which millions of people enjoy, and i'm wondering if the same logic applies to them. as for punctuation: i learned that a long time ago. i also learned a long time ago that if you're not writing an essay it doesn't really matter how you format your text in casual conversation Seems more like another excuse for racism tbh. Classify it, justify it, rephrase it however you want. The bias seems like it is from a primitive instinct, at least call it xenophobia.
I mean, you're being kind of obtuse there. If I watch soccer and I root for Switzerland, it's not out of xenophobia, it's because I don't know enough about the sport to root for teams because of their play, so I just look for exterior reasons to root for teams. "they're from my country" is one of those.
It's not our place to say who people get to root for or why. We can only argue why it's a bad thing for the scene in general, and people have done it well in this thread.
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On September 07 2014 06:18 yido wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2014 06:04 brickrd wrote:On September 07 2014 05:59 yido wrote:
What are those psychological impulses from? Racism.
no, you're confused. racism is about prejudice and institutional discrimination. you can't call an electrical impulse built on eons of evolution "racist;" that's an absurd misappropriation of the term. it's a fact that it's easier to establish a rapport or friendship with someone who has shared the same experiences as you, and someone from a different culture is able to share less on that level. if i spoke korean and frequented korean social media, i'm sure i would feel the same way about all korean players as i do about those who share my nationality - and indeed, most koreans who migrate and learn english are VERY VERY well received by pro-foreigner hardliners (polt, violet, etc). it's simply an accessibility issue. koreans are not as accessible to me emotionally as americans because of the realities of political and geographical and cultural borders. On September 07 2014 05:59 yido wrote:How is college sports or minor league have to do with this discussion? How about learning how to punctuate correctly before spitting out garbled response? because the point is repeatedly being made that it's "bad for the game" to watch or encourage or enjoy games that are of a lower caliber of skill. college and minor league sports are sport competitions of a categorically reduced skill level which millions of people enjoy, and i'm wondering if the same logic applies to them. as for punctuation: i learned that a long time ago. i also learned a long time ago that if you're not writing an essay it doesn't really matter how you format your text in casual conversation Seems more like another excuse for racism tbh. Classify it, justify it, rephrase it however you want. The bias seems like it is from a primitive instinct, at least call it xenophobia. College and Minor leagues are there to produce talent for the next level. Sure people watch them and love them but it isn't the "premiere tournament/league" of their respective sport. They are developmental programs that people come and watch, just like High school football programs. The only difference between them and primary education inter-mural play, is the salary that they get paid. Thanks for the clarification. Fair enough about the punctuation.
to me xenophobia implies that you're reacting to a foreign presence with hostility. if i said "i refuse to root for Solar because he's korean" then that's racist and xenophobic. but an instinctual attraction toward being a fan of, say, Catz instead of Solar because he speaks my language and has a presence in the english-speaking community and comes from the Western world i think is neither racist nor harmful. being a fan of a player isn't something that has to follow some system of logic and social fair play. that's the beauty of sports as entertainment - if i want to root for someone because he has a deep, soothing voice or his hair reminds me of delicious spaghetti or something insane like that, i'm free to do so
look, i get it - a lot of people have internalized racism and that may play a role in the way they approach sc2. but i take issue with the implication that it's impossible to have a totally harmless favoritism toward people who are similar to you. cheering someone on in starcraft doesn't mean i'm going to pass over a korean dude for a job, i think i can differentiate entertainment from social realities where these issues are more gravid
there may be some scenarios that call for this debate, but chastising people for enjoying a foreign sc2 scene is not what i would consider such a scenario
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Vatican City State582 Posts
this whole thing is a train wreck, it's gonna turn out like ShoutCraft NA..... If anyone else remembers how catastrophic the viewer count was. LEL!
^ for those who unaware, community cried about faceless korean players taking all the money and run, TB responded and hosted a non-korean tournament, and the viewer count flopped, just as expected. The takeaway here is that most sane ppl don't care enough to waste time watching baddies.
Honestly, if I wanted to see bad players play and make noob mistakes, I would watch my own replay.
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On September 07 2014 06:22 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2014 06:18 yido wrote:On September 07 2014 06:04 brickrd wrote:On September 07 2014 05:59 yido wrote:
What are those psychological impulses from? Racism.
no, you're confused. racism is about prejudice and institutional discrimination. you can't call an electrical impulse built on eons of evolution "racist;" that's an absurd misappropriation of the term. it's a fact that it's easier to establish a rapport or friendship with someone who has shared the same experiences as you, and someone from a different culture is able to share less on that level. if i spoke korean and frequented korean social media, i'm sure i would feel the same way about all korean players as i do about those who share my nationality - and indeed, most koreans who migrate and learn english are VERY VERY well received by pro-foreigner hardliners (polt, violet, etc). it's simply an accessibility issue. koreans are not as accessible to me emotionally as americans because of the realities of political and geographical and cultural borders. On September 07 2014 05:59 yido wrote:How is college sports or minor league have to do with this discussion? How about learning how to punctuate correctly before spitting out garbled response? because the point is repeatedly being made that it's "bad for the game" to watch or encourage or enjoy games that are of a lower caliber of skill. college and minor league sports are sport competitions of a categorically reduced skill level which millions of people enjoy, and i'm wondering if the same logic applies to them. as for punctuation: i learned that a long time ago. i also learned a long time ago that if you're not writing an essay it doesn't really matter how you format your text in casual conversation Seems more like another excuse for racism tbh. Classify it, justify it, rephrase it however you want. The bias seems like it is from a primitive instinct, at least call it xenophobia. I mean, you're being kind of obtuse there. If I watch soccer and I root for Switzerland, it's not out of xenophobia, it's because I don't know enough about the sport to root for teams because of their play, so I just look for exterior reasons to root for teams. "they're from my country" is one of those. It's not our place to say who people get to root for or why. We can only argue why it's a bad thing for the scene in general, and people have done it well in this thread.
Not trying to create more friction, honest.
However in reality, many people hide their racism or excuse it through variety of reasons, and "they're from my country" is used very often to mask those emotions.
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Also this is silly. How did those top tier Kespa protoss fare against Snute? Who was the protoss and only one to take a bo3 off Flash/went 2-3 against him when Zest went 1-4? And that's with them traveling to every tournament under the sun instead of sitting in a Kespa teamhouse practicing 8-14 hours a day. Sure, it was Flash v Zest at the end of the day but pretending it was a S-level stomp versus B-level players is disingenuous at best.
Are we seriously disputing that MC/Hyun/SD are ranked far above their actual skill level in WCS atm? I have never claimed the gap is insurmountable, but it's there, as anyone can attest to. Pretending like a few odd Bo3s change that in any meaningful way is not only disingenuous, it's downright asinine. The Kespa players are, by and large, better than everyone else, and should have the lion's share of points and seeds to reflect this.
Also, those guys traveling to every tournament under the sun is part of the problem. WCS points should be far more restricted, imo. Only WCS itself and fully open bracket tournaments should be allowed to distribute WCS points.
The funny thing is, WCS NA will look like shit and instead of having 8/8 koreans in ro8, we will have 5 chineses guys, Polt who will win every time, Violet and Major.
I've seen this so many times now, I can't wait for Polt to get rolled by Major without winning a map again, or get blown away by Scar despite being up a Bo3.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
[B]On September 07 2014 06:42 Squat wrote:
I've seen this so many times now, I can't wait for Polt to get rolled by Major without winning a map again, or get blown away by Scar despite being up a Bo3.
Just a friendly reminder, don't hold your breath!
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On September 07 2014 05:41 SmileZerg wrote:
I seriously don't understand how anyone in this thread can actually be happy that we're now going to be getting weaker players and worse games in two regions. Just when I was getting back into SC2, Blizzard decides to fuck things up some more.
I guess it's back to Starbow again.
B-but man Avilo vs ZJoe1 is like BW Flash vs Jaedong !!1
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GSL has already been pretty much reset in HotS by Kespa, so what's the point... LotV nearing completion?
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cant wait for all the NA players to lose 1st round except for........ you guessed it, koreans that played in NA.
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Looks like Blizzard finally does the right thing. Still they now have to do a lot of work that this new system works.
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Eh, I guess there will be no point to watch EU and AM WCS for me.  Quite sad news.
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On September 07 2014 07:15 Starecat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2014 05:41 SmileZerg wrote:
I seriously don't understand how anyone in this thread can actually be happy that we're now going to be getting weaker players and worse games in two regions. Just when I was getting back into SC2, Blizzard decides to fuck things up some more.
I guess it's back to Starbow again. B-but man Avilo vs ZJoe1 is like BW Flash vs Jaedong !!1
I think in the long run we will get better games all around.
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On September 07 2014 03:47 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2014 03:05 WoodLeagueAllStar wrote:
Those who can see long term view will like this change, those who only know short term will be upset by this change. The damage has already been done though, I wouldn't expect NA to be great until LoTV.
If the Koreans didn't retire before the change, they shouldn't retire after the change either. If we lose some fringe Koreans to this, I don't care because they were being artificially supported by a meritototalitarian (made up word) system, where yes, they were the best but also the system also ensured they would stay the best forever and had a inflated amount of seeds to play with (all 3 regions) now they have a fair amount of seeds.
Nobody from NA could really get hyped about playing when they knew they would lose. At least now someone might give it a shot from NA/SEA who never imagined taking the plunge.
Its a move that MAY grow the scene, all we asked for was a chance. All I know is that with the current system it was never going to grow. Let Blizzard try this. I feel sorry for Scarlett, this guy clearly think she isn't a good player. I nitpicked a small point in your post but let's face it, none of what you say makes even remote sense. You aren't the best because the system caters to you, that's ridiculous. You're the best because you play better. The inflated amount of seeds are seeds that Koreans earned, fair and square. To say that the seeds are now going to be more fairly distributed is basically saying that now foreigners will be able to win things while also sucking. You say it yourself "nobody from NA could really get hyped about playing when they knew they would lose". Which is false. You see the likes of iaguz, HuK, Major and Scarlett who are competing with Koreans. They're genuinely good players and they don't need the blizzard welfare to remain relevant. This is a move that won't help the NA scene. The NA scene will be dominated by a few select players, namely the ones who are in WCS AM and with the paperwork to back them up. The rest of the NA scene is small fry. The few select players that dominate the NA scene are then going to fall behind in terms of skill compared to the rest of the world, since overall that scene is going to be much less competitive. As a whole, if you want to keep the three regions on par in terms of skill, which is very important for the health of the international scene (again, snute vs flash shows just how important that is), then all three regions need to be competitive. Koreans help with that aspect immensely, the strength of their play means that foreigners have to play stronger in order to compete. This in turn means we have very strong foreigners. Those strong foreigners help with the international scene. You take away the Koreans that make up the meat of WCS and replace them with pseudo-pros and ladder warriors, you're going to widen the gap between Koreans and foreigners. That gap was slowly but surely closing.
I pretty much 100% agree with what you, DLO and countless of others have said in this thread. Having said that as I said before if Blizzard had annoucned this with the creation of 3 new Korean tournaments independent of the GSL then I feel the backlash would be lesser.
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EU will not change. All Koreans in WCS EU Season III except San have a Visa and live in Europe.
NA will not change much. Koreans in America and American Pros still play on KR Ladder, American pros will have to do the same. Maybe some Koreans drop of, maybe the Pigbaby story will not happen again, but others who move with their "student visa" to the USA will replace em. And maybe even more qualli due the Taiwan and Hongkong Qualis.
But one thing will again happen: While EU Foreigners competete everyday on ladder with the Koreans in Europe and get stronger and better each day, American pros who do not fight on the Korean Ladder, will lose the skill race.
And why 3 new Korean Tournaments? The korean Scene produces more and more high class players but no tournaments to help em. Its not blizzards buisness to correct it.
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On September 06 2014 22:34 Deleuze wrote:
Non-biased polls that only show results after voting!?
When did this come in to effect?
you assume the phrasing is correct and that polls mean something (and it's almost never the case both on TL and irl :D)
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France7248 Posts
I'm too lazy for that but I would love to compare some of the posts on this thread and the announce of WCS 2 years ago when they said there would be no region lock at all
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The poll results on this thread are honestly pretty shocking to me, and I can only think that it's mainly racial reasons that would create these kind of results. I can guarantee you that viewership is going to be way down in 2015 with this system for NA and EU. I can't even name NA players besides Scarlett that I'd enjoy seeing in a finals alone. Imagine what challenger is going to look like... That's going to be absolutely pitiful.
I honestly don't understand everyone who's been pushing for this, and even for all the pros that support it, it's totally illogical. Foreign only tournaments have never garnered a lot of interest, so why would this be any different? Are all these low tier foreigners who've never been able to maintain any sort of consistency suddenly going to be a huge attraction? That's just not going to happen, people just aren't going to care about these tournaments now. Sticking a WCS label on a tournament no one would have otherwise cared about isn't going to fool people for very long.
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On September 07 2014 09:15 Yhamm wrote:
I'm too lazy for that but I would love to compare some of the posts on this thread and the announce of WCS 2 years ago when they said there would be no region lock at all
people changing opinions or the usual troll that have switched to dota coming out of the wood and getting dunk on by kim?
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EPT
