|
WCS AM will continue to include LatAm, Oceania/SEA, CN, and TW/HK/Macau, you can all stop freaking out about it. |
Unless I'm misunderstanding something, this feels like the worst thing to happen to the scene since release. WCS is the only consistent ongoing tournament we have left, and I'm just not going to watch it if they boot out all the top talent and neuter the only two regions I can watch live. So uh... yeah, unless I'm missing something, it doesn't take much more analysis than that to realize this just sucks.
The people who win out of this decision are going to be disappointed with the result long term I think. Any success foreigners get out of this now is massively devalued by the fact that the tournaments are so much weaker. All that's happened is we've lost 2 premier tournaments and replaced them with stuff on the caliber of Shoutcraft America or w/e.
And then pushing all the Koreans back into GSL too? That's just straight up game ending for a lot of players I'd think.
|
On September 06 2014 05:17 AWalker9 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 05:09 Circumstance wrote:
Let's approach this from another angle.
Snute, Naniwa, Scarlett, Jinro, Huk, Idra. Some of the most successful foreigners of all time. What do they all have in common? They all spent time in Korean team houses. That was how they were able to unlock their potential. They were good on their ow , and lucky enough to be in a position where they could drop everything and move to the other side of the globe. Not everyone has that luxury, and it is wrong to say that a player has to be able to uproot their entire lives just for the possibility (not guarantee - possibility) of success. Yes, the Koreans are now going to have to deal with what the foreigners dealt with since the dawn of the game. But the temporary destabilization of the Korean scene pales in comparison to the chance for foreigners to play full-time in their own country without having to be the unbelievable anomaly of Stephano. You seem to be forgetting that lots of those foreigners had the chance to do that thanks to co-operation with Gom who even gave many of them a house to practice at, none of that is being offered for Koreans who would want to participate in AM or EU.
Koreans have an alternative. They can try to play in the Korean league. What choices did the foreigners have at the time? NASL, so they can lose to Puma and Zenio? IPL, where they can lose to Alive and TheSTC? MLG, where they can lose to Leenock and Violet? Maybe Dreamhack where they...you get the idea. People who don't have the good fortune to be born in the only country (which Korea is in Starcraft - not the best country, the ONLY country) shouldn't have their opportunities last only as far as the Round of 8 in Red Bull.
|
WCS NA is my least watched region, the lock won't affect my feelings as much as it does other people here. The general sentiment here (at with the anti-region lockers) is that 'lower skilled' NA players will get a free ride up the WCS rankings and to BlizzCon. This may be the case, but the wheat will always be separated from the chaff and we'll always get the skilled going through, sans any upsets. We just have to bear with more 'bad' games to get to the good ones in WCS tournaments. At least those end-of-season WCS tournaments are gone lol.
Whilst skill is an appreciable and considerable facet to any e-sports, liveability (income for players) and fans (i.e. income for sponsors) need to come first and I think Blizzard has got this right in terms (though it can be debated that this could have come earlier) of sustaining SC2 as an e-sports for the long term, aiming for organic growth long after LOTV.
Greater exposure of 'foreigners' is a good thing. I love this game too much for me and for other people to be salty about decline of skill, because these changes are above that...
|
On September 06 2014 05:36 TAMinator wrote:
Let the drama begin.
You're late.
|
On September 06 2014 05:42 Circumstance wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 05:17 AWalker9 wrote:On September 06 2014 05:09 Circumstance wrote:
Let's approach this from another angle.
Snute, Naniwa, Scarlett, Jinro, Huk, Idra. Some of the most successful foreigners of all time. What do they all have in common? They all spent time in Korean team houses. That was how they were able to unlock their potential. They were good on their ow , and lucky enough to be in a position where they could drop everything and move to the other side of the globe. Not everyone has that luxury, and it is wrong to say that a player has to be able to uproot their entire lives just for the possibility (not guarantee - possibility) of success. Yes, the Koreans are now going to have to deal with what the foreigners dealt with since the dawn of the game. But the temporary destabilization of the Korean scene pales in comparison to the chance for foreigners to play full-time in their own country without having to be the unbelievable anomaly of Stephano. You seem to be forgetting that lots of those foreigners had the chance to do that thanks to co-operation with Gom who even gave many of them a house to practice at, none of that is being offered for Koreans who would want to participate in AM or EU. Koreans have an alternative. They can try to play in the Korean league. What choices did the foreigners have at the time? NASL, so they can lose to Puma and Zenio? IPL, where they can lose to Alive and TheSTC? MLG, where they can lose to Leenock and Violet? Maybe Dreamhack where they...you get the idea. People who don't have the good fortune to be born in the only country (which Korea is in Starcraft - not the best country, the ONLY country) shouldn't have their opportunities last only as far as the Round of 8 in Red Bull.
The Korean league is once every 3 months or so if you don't make it in there's literally nothing else to do or a way to make money from if you don't have a team.
So if you're a Korean who can't qualify for GSL what else can you play until the next one? AM has MLG and Red Bull, EU has Dreamhack. What do Korean's have apart from the GSL that's regular that's not Proleague to compete in?
In 2013 outside GSL there were 0 tournaments in Korea. In 2014 there 2, GSL Global 80% invites, KeSPA Cup 50% invites.
|
On September 06 2014 05:46 AWalker9 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 05:42 Circumstance wrote:On September 06 2014 05:17 AWalker9 wrote:On September 06 2014 05:09 Circumstance wrote:
Let's approach this from another angle.
Snute, Naniwa, Scarlett, Jinro, Huk, Idra. Some of the most successful foreigners of all time. What do they all have in common? They all spent time in Korean team houses. That was how they were able to unlock their potential. They were good on their ow , and lucky enough to be in a position where they could drop everything and move to the other side of the globe. Not everyone has that luxury, and it is wrong to say that a player has to be able to uproot their entire lives just for the possibility (not guarantee - possibility) of success. Yes, the Koreans are now going to have to deal with what the foreigners dealt with since the dawn of the game. But the temporary destabilization of the Korean scene pales in comparison to the chance for foreigners to play full-time in their own country without having to be the unbelievable anomaly of Stephano. You seem to be forgetting that lots of those foreigners had the chance to do that thanks to co-operation with Gom who even gave many of them a house to practice at, none of that is being offered for Koreans who would want to participate in AM or EU. Koreans have an alternative. They can try to play in the Korean league. What choices did the foreigners have at the time? NASL, so they can lose to Puma and Zenio? IPL, where they can lose to Alive and TheSTC? MLG, where they can lose to Leenock and Violet? Maybe Dreamhack where they...you get the idea. People who don't have the good fortune to be born in the only country (which Korea is in Starcraft - not the best country, the ONLY country) shouldn't have their opportunities last only as far as the Round of 8 in Red Bull. So if you're a Korean who can't qualify for GSL what else can you play until the next one? AM has MLG and Red Bull, EU has Dreamhack. What do Korean's have apart from the GSL that's regular that's not Proleague to compete in?
When was the last time a foreigner won any of the tournaments you just listed? Other than Scarlett at Red Bull NYC, Koreans have been the Top 3 of every single one of those tournaments since 2012 - after all, they are open tournaments. And you failed to mention IEM, which has a similar streak going and has specific Korean qualifiers.
|
On September 06 2014 05:52 Circumstance wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 05:46 AWalker9 wrote:On September 06 2014 05:42 Circumstance wrote:On September 06 2014 05:17 AWalker9 wrote:On September 06 2014 05:09 Circumstance wrote:
Let's approach this from another angle.
Snute, Naniwa, Scarlett, Jinro, Huk, Idra. Some of the most successful foreigners of all time. What do they all have in common? They all spent time in Korean team houses. That was how they were able to unlock their potential. They were good on their ow , and lucky enough to be in a position where they could drop everything and move to the other side of the globe. Not everyone has that luxury, and it is wrong to say that a player has to be able to uproot their entire lives just for the possibility (not guarantee - possibility) of success. Yes, the Koreans are now going to have to deal with what the foreigners dealt with since the dawn of the game. But the temporary destabilization of the Korean scene pales in comparison to the chance for foreigners to play full-time in their own country without having to be the unbelievable anomaly of Stephano. You seem to be forgetting that lots of those foreigners had the chance to do that thanks to co-operation with Gom who even gave many of them a house to practice at, none of that is being offered for Koreans who would want to participate in AM or EU. Koreans have an alternative. They can try to play in the Korean league. What choices did the foreigners have at the time? NASL, so they can lose to Puma and Zenio? IPL, where they can lose to Alive and TheSTC? MLG, where they can lose to Leenock and Violet? Maybe Dreamhack where they...you get the idea. People who don't have the good fortune to be born in the only country (which Korea is in Starcraft - not the best country, the ONLY country) shouldn't have their opportunities last only as far as the Round of 8 in Red Bull. So if you're a Korean who can't qualify for GSL what else can you play until the next one? AM has MLG and Red Bull, EU has Dreamhack. What do Korean's have apart from the GSL that's regular that's not Proleague to compete in? When was the last time a foreigner won any of the tournaments you just listed? Other than Scarlett at Red Bull NYC, Koreans have been the Top 3 of every single one of those tournaments since 2012 - after all, they are open tournaments. And you failed to mention IEM, which has a similar streak going and has specific Korean qualifiers.
Bunny won
|
On September 06 2014 05:42 Circumstance wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 05:17 AWalker9 wrote:On September 06 2014 05:09 Circumstance wrote:
Let's approach this from another angle.
Snute, Naniwa, Scarlett, Jinro, Huk, Idra. Some of the most successful foreigners of all time. What do they all have in common? They all spent time in Korean team houses. That was how they were able to unlock their potential. They were good on their ow , and lucky enough to be in a position where they could drop everything and move to the other side of the globe. Not everyone has that luxury, and it is wrong to say that a player has to be able to uproot their entire lives just for the possibility (not guarantee - possibility) of success. Yes, the Koreans are now going to have to deal with what the foreigners dealt with since the dawn of the game. But the temporary destabilization of the Korean scene pales in comparison to the chance for foreigners to play full-time in their own country without having to be the unbelievable anomaly of Stephano. You seem to be forgetting that lots of those foreigners had the chance to do that thanks to co-operation with Gom who even gave many of them a house to practice at, none of that is being offered for Koreans who would want to participate in AM or EU. Koreans have an alternative. They can try to play in the Korean league. What choices did the foreigners have at the time? NASL, so they can lose to Puma and Zenio? IPL, where they can lose to Alive and TheSTC? MLG, where they can lose to Leenock and Violet? Maybe Dreamhack where they...you get the idea. People who don't have the good fortune to be born in the only country (which Korea is in Starcraft - not the best country, the ONLY country) shouldn't have their opportunities last only as far as the Round of 8 in Red Bull.
So now they can get into the end of year tourney and completely get stomped by actually good Koreans?
Great to watch, all 3-0 stomps in the first round.
|
On September 06 2014 05:52 Circumstance wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 05:46 AWalker9 wrote:On September 06 2014 05:42 Circumstance wrote:On September 06 2014 05:17 AWalker9 wrote:On September 06 2014 05:09 Circumstance wrote:
Let's approach this from another angle.
Snute, Naniwa, Scarlett, Jinro, Huk, Idra. Some of the most successful foreigners of all time. What do they all have in common? They all spent time in Korean team houses. That was how they were able to unlock their potential. They were good on their ow , and lucky enough to be in a position where they could drop everything and move to the other side of the globe. Not everyone has that luxury, and it is wrong to say that a player has to be able to uproot their entire lives just for the possibility (not guarantee - possibility) of success. Yes, the Koreans are now going to have to deal with what the foreigners dealt with since the dawn of the game. But the temporary destabilization of the Korean scene pales in comparison to the chance for foreigners to play full-time in their own country without having to be the unbelievable anomaly of Stephano. You seem to be forgetting that lots of those foreigners had the chance to do that thanks to co-operation with Gom who even gave many of them a house to practice at, none of that is being offered for Koreans who would want to participate in AM or EU. Koreans have an alternative. They can try to play in the Korean league. What choices did the foreigners have at the time? NASL, so they can lose to Puma and Zenio? IPL, where they can lose to Alive and TheSTC? MLG, where they can lose to Leenock and Violet? Maybe Dreamhack where they...you get the idea. People who don't have the good fortune to be born in the only country (which Korea is in Starcraft - not the best country, the ONLY country) shouldn't have their opportunities last only as far as the Round of 8 in Red Bull. So if you're a Korean who can't qualify for GSL what else can you play until the next one? AM has MLG and Red Bull, EU has Dreamhack. What do Korean's have apart from the GSL that's regular that's not Proleague to compete in? When was the last time a foreigner won any of the tournaments you just listed? Other than Scarlett at Red Bull NYC, Koreans have been the Top 3 of every single one of those tournaments since 2012 - after all, they are open tournaments. And you failed to mention IEM, which has a similar streak going and has specific Korean qualifiers.
You really think Koreans would fly out and play these events if they had something in Korea consistently? If you're Journey you can't afford to fly to Dreamhack or MLG. Most Korean's can't afford to go to these events in the first place. If you have a team that can fly you anywhere great, but that's not the case with 90% of Koreans.
Yeah and if you finish 4th in a IEM qualifier for Korea how much money do you get?
|
On September 06 2014 05:42 Circumstance wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 05:17 AWalker9 wrote:On September 06 2014 05:09 Circumstance wrote:
Let's approach this from another angle.
Snute, Naniwa, Scarlett, Jinro, Huk, Idra. Some of the most successful foreigners of all time. What do they all have in common? They all spent time in Korean team houses. That was how they were able to unlock their potential. They were good on their ow , and lucky enough to be in a position where they could drop everything and move to the other side of the globe. Not everyone has that luxury, and it is wrong to say that a player has to be able to uproot their entire lives just for the possibility (not guarantee - possibility) of success. Yes, the Koreans are now going to have to deal with what the foreigners dealt with since the dawn of the game. But the temporary destabilization of the Korean scene pales in comparison to the chance for foreigners to play full-time in their own country without having to be the unbelievable anomaly of Stephano. You seem to be forgetting that lots of those foreigners had the chance to do that thanks to co-operation with Gom who even gave many of them a house to practice at, none of that is being offered for Koreans who would want to participate in AM or EU. Koreans have an alternative. They can try to play in the Korean league. What choices did the foreigners have at the time? NASL, so they can lose to Puma and Zenio? IPL, where they can lose to Alive and TheSTC? MLG, where they can lose to Leenock and Violet? Maybe Dreamhack where they...you get the idea. People who don't have the good fortune to be born in the only country (which Korea is in Starcraft - not the best country, the ONLY country) shouldn't have their opportunities last only as far as the Round of 8 in Red Bull.
Those NA tournaments were region-locked at the start. The problem with that was they couldn't generate the viewer interest of their counterparts and started filtering in Koreans. IPL s1 was all but floundering.
That's why the poll results surprise me. 2/3s of everyone is saying region-lock is good for the scenes, but we've had like 1 event proving that (WCS EU finals 2012) and a wealth of others disproving it.
|
Easy money incoming for the handful of Koreans who actually have a visa 
|
Also it would be interesting to see what team owners of affected players have to say as well as the Korean players affected.
|
United States23455 Posts
On September 06 2014 06:32 AWalker9 wrote:
Also it would be interesting to see what team owners of affected players have to say as well as the Korean players affected.
Mostly Axiom. Seems like the changes are going to impact them more than most. Haha Impact get it because he's the last Axiom player playing in GSL? I dunno
|
|
|
On September 06 2014 06:33 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 06:32 AWalker9 wrote:
Also it would be interesting to see what team owners of affected players have to say as well as the Korean players affected. Mostly Axiom. Seems like the changes are going to impact them more than most. Haha Impact get it because he's the last Axiom player playing in GSL? I dunno
Yeah but he seems to get bad luck with groups in Code A
|
On September 06 2014 05:00 ssxsilver wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 04:55 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On September 06 2014 04:47 Incognoto wrote:On September 06 2014 04:39 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 04:37 iamcaustic wrote:On September 06 2014 03:27 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 03:13 Silvana wrote:On September 06 2014 03:11 Squat wrote:On September 06 2014 03:05 Zahanator wrote:On September 06 2014 03:01 Circumstance wrote:
[quote]
There's a pretty substantial difference between "currently are" and "will always be". Foreigners sure won't get better by competing against each other at their crappy level. How did anyone ever get good at anything then? Someone somewhere started by flinging goatshit at the cave wall, and eventually we got the Sistine Chapel. Foreigners will get better for sure, but they won't catch up with the Koreans. I think that's what he was trying to say. Seems that way. I know people are saying that foreigners having more opportunity for money (this is pretty much only for NA because EU will have basically the same Koreans) will make them train harder and get better, but there are a good number of Europeans who have said that having Koreans in their region has made them improve drastically. Just ask Snute Yes, but there's a difference between the rare, dedicated foreigner piggybacking off Korean skill to reach similar levels (there's always some foreign hope at any given time) and an entire region actually being competitive. To say that Snute is as good as Korea, an entire region, is missing the point that most of EU (and especially AM) cannot compare with the current setup. Snute is also in a good position as a player for Team Liquid, one of the very few organizations that's financially stable and allows its players to dedicate their time to the game. But Snute isn't the only one who has credited Korean presence in EU with making the whole scene better, that was just an example. Or am I wrong? I dunno I was pretty sure several players had said that Just look at all the foreigners who are actually good at the game. On September 06 2014 04:44 Noocta wrote:On September 06 2014 04:34 Incognoto wrote:
Why? Because NA players, with a few exceptions, are bad. The only unfair thing between KR and NA is the difference in player strength. This is legitimate player welfare: you guys are bad yet you aren't Korean. So we're going to help you. Koreans, yes, they're good. So let's make sure they have to go through incredibly difficult procedures to make sure that they can't play. Welcome to modern Esport, it's not about who's the best, it's about who's the most marketable. Isn't actual skill marketable though? That's the whole point of esports. It's not like the skilled players aren't marketable, look at the viewers IEM Flash got. There's a reason EG is one of, if not the most, successful business in eSports. It's not all about skill. On September 06 2014 04:51 Incognoto wrote:On September 06 2014 04:47 Luolis wrote:On September 06 2014 04:45 Incognoto wrote:
The entire "Koreans should come get visas to stay in the region they want to compete in" argument is also fucking bullshit. This doesn't apply to Koreans who are already living in Europe, obviously. However, it means that players from Korea who possibly want to come into EU / NA will need to get a visa. This means that the likes of TRUE (if he's picked up by a non-kespa team), Journey and Ragnarok for example are just fucked. To obtain a visa, you need a good reason for it. "I'm going to participate in a video game tournament which may or may not allow me to sustain myself" isn't a good reason, it's a shitty one.
Visas are obviously more easily given to established WCS players, so by blocking out new Koreans from going into WCS, you're blocking them their prime argument to get a visa. I may not be 100% certain on how obtaining visas work, but it seems logical that you'd get a visa if you're sure that you're going to do something in EU. So by forcing players to play in WCS only after getting the visa, you're making it even more difficult for them to come into EU.
The quality of play of WCS foreigner is only going to go downhill from there. It won't even be funny. There are like three legitimate players from North America. Scarlett, Major and HuK. We do have Polt and Violet who also live in the US.0 The rest is small fry. Who on earth is going to watch a tournament with 5 good players? I'm disregarding LatAm, Oceania/SEA, CN, and TW/HK/Macau, obviously, though let's be serious with those regions taken into account, you might get another three players, who I can't name off the top of my head. That just goes to show how weak WCS AM would become. All the skill that Koreans injected in WCS AM by being tough competition would now leave. Viewership will go down from here on out. No one cares about two random NA scrubs playing a Bo3 with each other. Taeja vs Jaedong on the other hand is a clash of monsters which is worth tuning into even if you're a "i-only-watch-the-gsl" hipster.
Blizzard, killing starcraft. ded gaem The saltiness is real. Of course it's real, I really like this damn game called Starcraft. I'm less about the flashiness that you'd get from the players and more about appreciating the incredible things they do in the game. Getting rid of high level play and dumbing things down to cater shitty players is the worst possible thing that could happen. ded gaem E: crap double post sorry Good news for you then, WCS EU will still more or less stay the same, and WCS Korea should get even MORE competitive! Isn't that what you want? The highest level of competition?! Then why not just seed Winter, Avilo, and Destiny into Blizzcon? You want the popular players after all, no?
lol, way to completely miss my point, but ok
|
No No No
The best players produce the best games who cares if they foreign or not.So koreans you are too damn good so lest change the rules because foreigners dont like that.Blizzard is doing this under pressure.I cant believe this this is ridiculous.
|
On September 06 2014 06:37 AWalker9 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 06:33 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 06:32 AWalker9 wrote:
Also it would be interesting to see what team owners of affected players have to say as well as the Korean players affected. Mostly Axiom. Seems like the changes are going to impact them more than most. Haha Impact get it because he's the last Axiom player playing in GSL? I dunno Yeah but he seems to get bad luck with groups in Code A
Yeah he had Rain and Cure this season who both made it to Code S playoffs. He had Bbyong and DRG last season. Poor guy, he's so good but he can't get a break.
|
On September 06 2014 06:53 KingofdaHipHop wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 06:37 AWalker9 wrote:On September 06 2014 06:33 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 06:32 AWalker9 wrote:
Also it would be interesting to see what team owners of affected players have to say as well as the Korean players affected. Mostly Axiom. Seems like the changes are going to impact them more than most. Haha Impact get it because he's the last Axiom player playing in GSL? I dunno Yeah but he seems to get bad luck with groups in Code A Yeah he had Rain and Cure this season who both made it to Code S playoffs. He had Bbyong and DRG last season. Poor guy, he's so good but he can't get a break.
Just hasn't had bracket luck, if it had been any other group he might have made Code S. Cure and Rain have been so impressive this GSL, he can't feel too bad having been knocked out by them.
Heart might be able to make Code S next year if he faces lots of zergs.
|
On September 06 2014 04:39 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 04:37 iamcaustic wrote:On September 06 2014 03:27 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 03:13 Silvana wrote:On September 06 2014 03:11 Squat wrote:On September 06 2014 03:05 Zahanator wrote:On September 06 2014 03:01 Circumstance wrote:On September 06 2014 02:59 Starecat wrote:On September 06 2014 02:55 Circumstance wrote:
A massive portion of this argument is based on the flawed premise that the Koreans will always be better than the foreigners in perpetuity no matter what. That continued belief is the reason WCS is needed in the first place. They won every big international tournament, so they are better. There's a pretty substantial difference between "currently are" and "will always be". Foreigners sure won't get better by competing against each other at their crappy level. How did anyone ever get good at anything then? Someone somewhere started by flinging goatshit at the cave wall, and eventually we got the Sistine Chapel. Foreigners will get better for sure, but they won't catch up with the Koreans. I think that's what he was trying to say. Seems that way. I know people are saying that foreigners having more opportunity for money (this is pretty much only for NA because EU will have basically the same Koreans) will make them train harder and get better, but there are a good number of Europeans who have said that having Koreans in their region has made them improve drastically. Just ask Snute Yes, but there's a difference between the rare, dedicated foreigner piggybacking off Korean skill to reach similar levels (there's always some foreign hope at any given time) and an entire region actually being competitive. To say that Snute is as good as Korea, an entire region, is missing the point that most of EU (and especially AM) cannot compare with the current setup. Snute is also in a good position as a player for Team Liquid, one of the very few organizations that's financially stable and allows its players to dedicate their time to the game. But Snute isn't the only one who has credited Korean presence in EU with making the whole scene better, that was just an example. Or am I wrong? I dunno I was pretty sure several players had said that
Like others have noted, folks like TLO have mentioned it, as in the short term nobody can deny playing against better players will elevate your skill. There's no long term vision or structure to it, however. Ultimately, foreigners play by themselves and their skill is dependent on how dedicated they are at the moment to motivate themselves. There's a reason we see a number of Korean players who joined foreign teams now returning to KeSPA, citing the need for "more structure" to push them to a championship level.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
