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WCS AM will continue to include LatAm, Oceania/SEA, CN, and TW/HK/Macau, you can all stop freaking out about it. |
United States23455 Posts
On September 06 2014 04:26 REyeM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 04:23 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 04:22 REyeM wrote:Instead of this Europeans and Americans should start their own leagues, but not as a part of WCS, something like China recently launched, + Show Spoiler +http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GPL_2014_Season_1 but it should not be a part of WCS. They could make a system where you have: GSL (which anyone can participate in and you can play it alongside as your own region league) which would award highest amount of points, followed by independent events: Tier 1, Tier 2 etc. which everyone can participate in aswell. That way foreigners can compete with each other, fans of those competitions would be able to enjoy watching it, lot of younger foreigners would get more exposure, and BlizzCon as the Grand Final would be reserved for the top 16 players in the world. And hey if you're good you could win a Dreamhack here and there, qualify for Code S Ro16 of GSL now and then and maybe you'll have a chance to play at BlizzCon if you deserve to. The problem here is where can you get the money to host a tournament of that size for only EU/NA players? Blizzard funds WCS but who would fund this other league? ESL? RedBull? Edit: Blizzard I guess, GSL prize pool would stay the same.
Please explain to me the difference between a Blizzard funded region locked WCS America and Europe and the abolishment of WCS in AM and EU but a new league formed in those regions still funded by Blizzard.
Also you say they could play in their regional league and GSL. First of all that would be incredibly difficult given playing requirements in two places on opposite sides of the world. Second of all, if they did all try to go to GSL there would be wayyyyy too many people trying to play for 32 code S spots. GSL is going to be over saturated as it is
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On September 06 2014 04:28 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 04:26 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On September 06 2014 03:49 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 03:35 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On September 06 2014 03:32 Squat wrote:On September 06 2014 03:27 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 03:13 Silvana wrote:On September 06 2014 03:11 Squat wrote:On September 06 2014 03:05 Zahanator wrote:On September 06 2014 03:01 Circumstance wrote:
[quote]
There's a pretty substantial difference between "currently are" and "will always be". Foreigners sure won't get better by competing against each other at their crappy level. How did anyone ever get good at anything then? Someone somewhere started by flinging goatshit at the cave wall, and eventually we got the Sistine Chapel. Foreigners will get better for sure, but they won't catch up with the Koreans. I think that's what he was trying to say. Seems that way. I know people are saying that foreigners having more opportunity for money (this is pretty much only for NA because EU will have basically the same Koreans) will make them train harder and get better, but there are a good number of Europeans who have said that having Koreans in their region has made them improve drastically. Just ask Snute There is a vast difference between having Koreans fully integrate with the scene and provide steady, consistent access to higher level practice, a la WCS EU, as opposed to them just coming over and beating up the locals, taking all the money, and then going home, like in WCS NA. Yep. Way more incentive to train hard and try to beat the guy you play with every day, than the jackass who swoops in to steal all the money. It's a perception thing, really. IMO, with (most likely) less Koreans in AM, it should actually encourage people to train even harder. They will still have to practice and improve to stay ahead of their peers, with the added bonus of having a real chance at all that training paying off. It's gotta be real discouraging to practice a ton and train only to keep getting destroyed by Korean players. But they will still go to the global finals and get destroyed by Korean players right? I mean they won't have any practice against Koreans leading up to it Sure, but at least you don't have to come up against the Korean Monster constantly. Every time you try to play in your regional competition. That shit is demoralizing. It's much better to compete against your peers, and then see how you stack up in the global finals. You get the short term goal of winning your region and bettering your peers, and still have that long term goal of stacking up against the best of the best. IMO, the Global Finals/Blizzcon pretty much should end up with Ro4 as Koreans every time. They ARE the best, and that's when it should really matter. Also, there's a reason Shoutcraft America did so well viewerwise, btw, even with only the "lower tier" American players. People will watch competitors of a similar level of skill fight it out for something that matters. No one wants to watch a one sided beat down between a top tier Korean like Taeja/Jaedong/HerO/whoever vs an AM player. Shoutcraft America didn't do very well viewer wise I thought? I thought he only got a lot of viewers when he did the Shoutcraft Sandisk Invitational with all Koreans?
For sure and that's because we saw some really, really sick games. Sandisk was insane. My next SSD is sandisk and I'm waiting for TB to do another Shoutcraft KR, which is really beneficial to everyone.
Oh wait, TB has to save money to feed the now starving Axiom players. :/
Wanted to quote desrow, I don't normally try to argue with established community members but this is silly.
I’m relieved that WCS is region locking their leagues. Some might say Koreans will retire with the recent change, but they are not thinking about players in the NA scene. Most of us have been suffocating from the amount of Koreans in WCS NA. It's been extremely hard to make money as a North American player and this change will help us.
The only issue is that most players that come live in the US (such as Polt and Violet) play on EU or KR server so it doesn't help up & comers in the NA Scene get good practice on ladder. Take EU for example, the GEM house consisting of MC, Yoda, First and Hyun has helped the EU players become real contenders at international events like Dreamhacks and IEMs. 2015 will be a good year for the foreign scene.
Why? Because NA players, with a few exceptions, are bad. The only unfair thing between KR and NA is the difference in player strength. This is legitimate player welfare: you guys are bad yet you aren't Korean. So we're going to help you. Koreans, yes, they're good. So let's make sure they have to go through incredibly difficult procedures to make sure that they can't play.
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On September 06 2014 03:27 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 03:13 Silvana wrote:On September 06 2014 03:11 Squat wrote:On September 06 2014 03:05 Zahanator wrote:On September 06 2014 03:01 Circumstance wrote:On September 06 2014 02:59 Starecat wrote:On September 06 2014 02:55 Circumstance wrote:
A massive portion of this argument is based on the flawed premise that the Koreans will always be better than the foreigners in perpetuity no matter what. That continued belief is the reason WCS is needed in the first place. They won every big international tournament, so they are better. There's a pretty substantial difference between "currently are" and "will always be". Foreigners sure won't get better by competing against each other at their crappy level. How did anyone ever get good at anything then? Someone somewhere started by flinging goatshit at the cave wall, and eventually we got the Sistine Chapel. Foreigners will get better for sure, but they won't catch up with the Koreans. I think that's what he was trying to say. Seems that way. I know people are saying that foreigners having more opportunity for money (this is pretty much only for NA because EU will have basically the same Koreans) will make them train harder and get better, but there are a good number of Europeans who have said that having Koreans in their region has made them improve drastically. Just ask Snute
Yes, but there's a difference between the rare, dedicated foreigner piggybacking off Korean skill to reach similar levels (there's always some foreign hope at any given time) and an entire region actually being competitive. To say that Snute is as good as Korea, an entire region, is missing the point that most of EU (and especially AM) cannot compare with the current setup. Snute is also in a good position as a player for Team Liquid, one of the very few organizations that's financially stable and allows its players to dedicate their time to the game.
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On September 06 2014 04:31 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 04:26 REyeM wrote:On September 06 2014 04:23 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 04:22 REyeM wrote:Instead of this Europeans and Americans should start their own leagues, but not as a part of WCS, something like China recently launched, + Show Spoiler +http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GPL_2014_Season_1 but it should not be a part of WCS. They could make a system where you have: GSL (which anyone can participate in and you can play it alongside as your own region league) which would award highest amount of points, followed by independent events: Tier 1, Tier 2 etc. which everyone can participate in aswell. That way foreigners can compete with each other, fans of those competitions would be able to enjoy watching it, lot of younger foreigners would get more exposure, and BlizzCon as the Grand Final would be reserved for the top 16 players in the world. And hey if you're good you could win a Dreamhack here and there, qualify for Code S Ro16 of GSL now and then and maybe you'll have a chance to play at BlizzCon if you deserve to. The problem here is where can you get the money to host a tournament of that size for only EU/NA players? Blizzard funds WCS but who would fund this other league? ESL? RedBull? Edit: Blizzard I guess, GSL prize pool would stay the same. Please explain to me the difference between a Blizzard funded region locked WCS America and Europe and the abolishment of WCS in AM and EU but a new league formed in those regions still funded by Blizzard. Also you say they could play in their regional league and GSL. First of all that would be incredibly difficult given playing requirements in two places on opposite sides of the world. Second of all, if they did all try to go to GSL there would be wayyyyy too many people trying to play for 32 code S spots. GSL is going to be over saturated as it is
Chinese players are managing to play in GPL, WCS AM and lot of other tournaments at the same time and that league has a prize pool of only 13.000$. Thats the kind of money I was thinking these sorts of leagues should have as a prize pool. As far as the GSL goes only top players should be able to qualify for Code S, make a bigger online qualifier for Code A I guess, that would work.
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United States23455 Posts
On September 06 2014 04:37 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 03:27 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 03:13 Silvana wrote:On September 06 2014 03:11 Squat wrote:On September 06 2014 03:05 Zahanator wrote:On September 06 2014 03:01 Circumstance wrote:On September 06 2014 02:59 Starecat wrote:On September 06 2014 02:55 Circumstance wrote:
A massive portion of this argument is based on the flawed premise that the Koreans will always be better than the foreigners in perpetuity no matter what. That continued belief is the reason WCS is needed in the first place. They won every big international tournament, so they are better. There's a pretty substantial difference between "currently are" and "will always be". Foreigners sure won't get better by competing against each other at their crappy level. How did anyone ever get good at anything then? Someone somewhere started by flinging goatshit at the cave wall, and eventually we got the Sistine Chapel. Foreigners will get better for sure, but they won't catch up with the Koreans. I think that's what he was trying to say. Seems that way. I know people are saying that foreigners having more opportunity for money (this is pretty much only for NA because EU will have basically the same Koreans) will make them train harder and get better, but there are a good number of Europeans who have said that having Koreans in their region has made them improve drastically. Just ask Snute Yes, but there's a difference between the rare, dedicated foreigner piggybacking off Korean skill to reach similar levels (there's always some foreign hope at any given time) and an entire region actually being competitive. To say that Snute is as good as Korea, an entire region, is missing the point that most of EU (and especially AM) cannot compare with the current setup. Snute is also in a good position as a player for Team Liquid, one of the very few organizations that's financially stable and allows its players to dedicate their time to the game.
But Snute isn't the only one who has credited Korean presence in EU with making the whole scene better, that was just an example. Or am I wrong? I dunno I was pretty sure several players had said that
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On September 06 2014 04:34 Incognoto wrote:
Why? Because NA players, with a few exceptions, are bad. The only unfair thing between KR and NA is the difference in player strength. This is legitimate player welfare: you guys are bad yet you aren't Korean. So we're going to help you. Koreans, yes, they're good. So let's make sure they have to go through incredibly difficult procedures to make sure that they can't play.
Welcome to modern Esport, it's not about who's the best, it's about who's the most marketable.
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On September 06 2014 04:38 REyeM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 04:31 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 04:26 REyeM wrote:On September 06 2014 04:23 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 04:22 REyeM wrote:Instead of this Europeans and Americans should start their own leagues, but not as a part of WCS, something like China recently launched, + Show Spoiler +http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GPL_2014_Season_1 but it should not be a part of WCS. They could make a system where you have: GSL (which anyone can participate in and you can play it alongside as your own region league) which would award highest amount of points, followed by independent events: Tier 1, Tier 2 etc. which everyone can participate in aswell. That way foreigners can compete with each other, fans of those competitions would be able to enjoy watching it, lot of younger foreigners would get more exposure, and BlizzCon as the Grand Final would be reserved for the top 16 players in the world. And hey if you're good you could win a Dreamhack here and there, qualify for Code S Ro16 of GSL now and then and maybe you'll have a chance to play at BlizzCon if you deserve to. The problem here is where can you get the money to host a tournament of that size for only EU/NA players? Blizzard funds WCS but who would fund this other league? ESL? RedBull? Edit: Blizzard I guess, GSL prize pool would stay the same. Please explain to me the difference between a Blizzard funded region locked WCS America and Europe and the abolishment of WCS in AM and EU but a new league formed in those regions still funded by Blizzard. Also you say they could play in their regional league and GSL. First of all that would be incredibly difficult given playing requirements in two places on opposite sides of the world. Second of all, if they did all try to go to GSL there would be wayyyyy too many people trying to play for 32 code S spots. GSL is going to be over saturated as it is Chinese players are managing to play in GPL, WCS AM and lot of other tournaments at the same time and that league has a prize pool of only 13.000$. Thats the kind of money I was thinking these sorts of leagues should have as a prize pool. As far as the GSL goes only top players should be able to qualify for Code S, make a bigger online qualifier for Code A I guess, that would work.
What I suggested seems similar to WCS 2012 style, except for the BlizzCon participation rules, and if a certain foreign player does not feel that he can make top 16 in the world, he should not even bother going to Korea and trying to qualify for GSL.
Edit: typo
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On September 06 2014 04:39 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 04:37 iamcaustic wrote:On September 06 2014 03:27 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 03:13 Silvana wrote:On September 06 2014 03:11 Squat wrote:On September 06 2014 03:05 Zahanator wrote:On September 06 2014 03:01 Circumstance wrote:On September 06 2014 02:59 Starecat wrote:On September 06 2014 02:55 Circumstance wrote:
A massive portion of this argument is based on the flawed premise that the Koreans will always be better than the foreigners in perpetuity no matter what. That continued belief is the reason WCS is needed in the first place. They won every big international tournament, so they are better. There's a pretty substantial difference between "currently are" and "will always be". Foreigners sure won't get better by competing against each other at their crappy level. How did anyone ever get good at anything then? Someone somewhere started by flinging goatshit at the cave wall, and eventually we got the Sistine Chapel. Foreigners will get better for sure, but they won't catch up with the Koreans. I think that's what he was trying to say. Seems that way. I know people are saying that foreigners having more opportunity for money (this is pretty much only for NA because EU will have basically the same Koreans) will make them train harder and get better, but there are a good number of Europeans who have said that having Koreans in their region has made them improve drastically. Just ask Snute Yes, but there's a difference between the rare, dedicated foreigner piggybacking off Korean skill to reach similar levels (there's always some foreign hope at any given time) and an entire region actually being competitive. To say that Snute is as good as Korea, an entire region, is missing the point that most of EU (and especially AM) cannot compare with the current setup. Snute is also in a good position as a player for Team Liquid, one of the very few organizations that's financially stable and allows its players to dedicate their time to the game. But Snute isn't the only one who has credited Korean presence in EU with making the whole scene better, that was just an example. Or am I wrong? I dunno I was pretty sure several players had said that
Isn't it fairly pathetic how just a handful of koreans practicing on eu is enough to elevate the scene? Why can't foreigners have work ethic and actually play the ladder all day. Even players that are supported by their team and are lauded for their work ethic like tlo don't play as much as the koreans.
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The entire "Koreans should come get visas to stay in the region they want to compete in" argument is also fucking bullshit. This doesn't apply to Koreans who are already living in Europe, obviously. However, it means that players from Korea who possibly want to come into EU / NA will need to get a visa. This means that the likes of TRUE (if he's picked up by a non-kespa team), Journey and Ragnarok for example are just fucked. To obtain a visa, you need a good reason for it. "I'm going to participate in a video game tournament which may or may not allow me to sustain myself" isn't a good reason, it's a shitty one.
Visas are obviously more easily given to established WCS players, so by blocking out new Koreans from going into WCS, you're blocking them their prime argument to get a visa. I may not be 100% certain on how obtaining visas work, but it seems logical that you'd get a visa if you're sure that you're going to do something in EU. So by forcing players to play in WCS only after getting the visa, you're making it even more difficult for them to come into EU.
The quality of play of WCS foreigner is only going to go downhill from there. It won't even be funny. There are like three legitimate players from North America. Scarlett, Major and HuK. We do have Polt and Violet who also live in the US.0 The rest is small fry. Who on earth is going to watch a tournament with 5 good players? I'm disregarding LatAm, Oceania/SEA, CN, and TW/HK/Macau, obviously, though let's be serious with those regions taken into account, you might get another three players, who I can't name off the top of my head. That just goes to show how weak WCS AM would become. All the skill that Koreans injected in WCS AM by being tough competition would now leave. Viewership will go down from here on out. No one cares about two random NA scrubs playing a Bo3 with each other. Taeja vs Jaedong on the other hand is a clash of monsters which is worth tuning into even if you're a "i-only-watch-the-gsl" hipster.
Blizzard, killing starcraft. ded gaem
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On September 06 2014 04:39 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 04:37 iamcaustic wrote:On September 06 2014 03:27 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 03:13 Silvana wrote:On September 06 2014 03:11 Squat wrote:On September 06 2014 03:05 Zahanator wrote:On September 06 2014 03:01 Circumstance wrote:On September 06 2014 02:59 Starecat wrote:On September 06 2014 02:55 Circumstance wrote:
A massive portion of this argument is based on the flawed premise that the Koreans will always be better than the foreigners in perpetuity no matter what. That continued belief is the reason WCS is needed in the first place. They won every big international tournament, so they are better. There's a pretty substantial difference between "currently are" and "will always be". Foreigners sure won't get better by competing against each other at their crappy level. How did anyone ever get good at anything then? Someone somewhere started by flinging goatshit at the cave wall, and eventually we got the Sistine Chapel. Foreigners will get better for sure, but they won't catch up with the Koreans. I think that's what he was trying to say. Seems that way. I know people are saying that foreigners having more opportunity for money (this is pretty much only for NA because EU will have basically the same Koreans) will make them train harder and get better, but there are a good number of Europeans who have said that having Koreans in their region has made them improve drastically. Just ask Snute Yes, but there's a difference between the rare, dedicated foreigner piggybacking off Korean skill to reach similar levels (there's always some foreign hope at any given time) and an entire region actually being competitive. To say that Snute is as good as Korea, an entire region, is missing the point that most of EU (and especially AM) cannot compare with the current setup. Snute is also in a good position as a player for Team Liquid, one of the very few organizations that's financially stable and allows its players to dedicate their time to the game. But Snute isn't the only one who has credited Korean presence in EU with making the whole scene better, that was just an example. Or am I wrong? I dunno I was pretty sure several players had said that
TLO has said it. In the Acer article he's said he's sceptical and on twitter he said that he wanted good Koreans to be helped get visas.
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On September 06 2014 04:29 ragz_gt wrote:All player interviewed support the change. OMG everyone agrees, this must be best thing since sliced bread!
Bunch of cowards...
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On September 06 2014 04:45 Incognoto wrote:
The entire "Koreans should come get visas to stay in the region they want to compete in" argument is also fucking bullshit. This doesn't apply to Koreans who are already living in Europe, obviously. However, it means that players from Korea who possibly want to come into EU / NA will need to get a visa. This means that the likes of TRUE (if he's picked up by a non-kespa team), Journey and Ragnarok for example are just fucked. To obtain a visa, you need a good reason for it. "I'm going to participate in a video game tournament which may or may not allow me to sustain myself" isn't a good reason, it's a shitty one.
Visas are obviously more easily given to established WCS players, so by blocking out new Koreans from going into WCS, you're blocking them their prime argument to get a visa. I may not be 100% certain on how obtaining visas work, but it seems logical that you'd get a visa if you're sure that you're going to do something in EU. So by forcing players to play in WCS only after getting the visa, you're making it even more difficult for them to come into EU.
The quality of play of WCS foreigner is only going to go downhill from there. It won't even be funny. There are like three legitimate players from North America. Scarlett, Major and HuK. We do have Polt and Violet who also live in the US.0 The rest is small fry. Who on earth is going to watch a tournament with 5 good players? I'm disregarding LatAm, Oceania/SEA, CN, and TW/HK/Macau, obviously, though let's be serious with those regions taken into account, you might get another three players, who I can't name off the top of my head. That just goes to show how weak WCS AM would become. All the skill that Koreans injected in WCS AM by being tough competition would now leave. Viewership will go down from here on out. No one cares about two random NA scrubs playing a Bo3 with each other. Taeja vs Jaedong on the other hand is a clash of monsters which is worth tuning into even if you're a "i-only-watch-the-gsl" hipster.
Blizzard, killing starcraft. ded gaem
The saltiness is real.
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On September 06 2014 04:39 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 04:37 iamcaustic wrote:On September 06 2014 03:27 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 03:13 Silvana wrote:On September 06 2014 03:11 Squat wrote:On September 06 2014 03:05 Zahanator wrote:On September 06 2014 03:01 Circumstance wrote:On September 06 2014 02:59 Starecat wrote:On September 06 2014 02:55 Circumstance wrote:
A massive portion of this argument is based on the flawed premise that the Koreans will always be better than the foreigners in perpetuity no matter what. That continued belief is the reason WCS is needed in the first place. They won every big international tournament, so they are better. There's a pretty substantial difference between "currently are" and "will always be". Foreigners sure won't get better by competing against each other at their crappy level. How did anyone ever get good at anything then? Someone somewhere started by flinging goatshit at the cave wall, and eventually we got the Sistine Chapel. Foreigners will get better for sure, but they won't catch up with the Koreans. I think that's what he was trying to say. Seems that way. I know people are saying that foreigners having more opportunity for money (this is pretty much only for NA because EU will have basically the same Koreans) will make them train harder and get better, but there are a good number of Europeans who have said that having Koreans in their region has made them improve drastically. Just ask Snute Yes, but there's a difference between the rare, dedicated foreigner piggybacking off Korean skill to reach similar levels (there's always some foreign hope at any given time) and an entire region actually being competitive. To say that Snute is as good as Korea, an entire region, is missing the point that most of EU (and especially AM) cannot compare with the current setup. Snute is also in a good position as a player for Team Liquid, one of the very few organizations that's financially stable and allows its players to dedicate their time to the game. But Snute isn't the only one who has credited Korean presence in EU with making the whole scene better, that was just an example. Or am I wrong? I dunno I was pretty sure several players had said that
Just look at all the foreigners who are actually good at the game.
On September 06 2014 04:44 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 04:34 Incognoto wrote:
Why? Because NA players, with a few exceptions, are bad. The only unfair thing between KR and NA is the difference in player strength. This is legitimate player welfare: you guys are bad yet you aren't Korean. So we're going to help you. Koreans, yes, they're good. So let's make sure they have to go through incredibly difficult procedures to make sure that they can't play. Welcome to modern Esport, it's not about who's the best, it's about who's the most marketable.
Isn't actual skill marketable though? That's the whole point of esports. It's not like the skilled players aren't marketable, look at the viewers IEM Flash got.
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On September 06 2014 04:47 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 04:45 Incognoto wrote:
The entire "Koreans should come get visas to stay in the region they want to compete in" argument is also fucking bullshit. This doesn't apply to Koreans who are already living in Europe, obviously. However, it means that players from Korea who possibly want to come into EU / NA will need to get a visa. This means that the likes of TRUE (if he's picked up by a non-kespa team), Journey and Ragnarok for example are just fucked. To obtain a visa, you need a good reason for it. "I'm going to participate in a video game tournament which may or may not allow me to sustain myself" isn't a good reason, it's a shitty one.
Visas are obviously more easily given to established WCS players, so by blocking out new Koreans from going into WCS, you're blocking them their prime argument to get a visa. I may not be 100% certain on how obtaining visas work, but it seems logical that you'd get a visa if you're sure that you're going to do something in EU. So by forcing players to play in WCS only after getting the visa, you're making it even more difficult for them to come into EU.
The quality of play of WCS foreigner is only going to go downhill from there. It won't even be funny. There are like three legitimate players from North America. Scarlett, Major and HuK. We do have Polt and Violet who also live in the US.0 The rest is small fry. Who on earth is going to watch a tournament with 5 good players? I'm disregarding LatAm, Oceania/SEA, CN, and TW/HK/Macau, obviously, though let's be serious with those regions taken into account, you might get another three players, who I can't name off the top of my head. That just goes to show how weak WCS AM would become. All the skill that Koreans injected in WCS AM by being tough competition would now leave. Viewership will go down from here on out. No one cares about two random NA scrubs playing a Bo3 with each other. Taeja vs Jaedong on the other hand is a clash of monsters which is worth tuning into even if you're a "i-only-watch-the-gsl" hipster.
Blizzard, killing starcraft. ded gaem The saltiness is real.
Of course it's real, I really like this damn game called Starcraft. I'm less about the flashiness that you'd get from the players and more about appreciating the incredible things they do in the game.
Getting rid of high level play and dumbing things down to cater shitty players is the worst possible thing that could happen.
ded gaem
E: crap double post sorry
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It's kind of funny that Blizzard has such a big problems organizing their eSport structure because players in a single country are far superior then in any other. 
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On September 06 2014 04:51 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 04:47 Luolis wrote:On September 06 2014 04:45 Incognoto wrote:
The entire "Koreans should come get visas to stay in the region they want to compete in" argument is also fucking bullshit. This doesn't apply to Koreans who are already living in Europe, obviously. However, it means that players from Korea who possibly want to come into EU / NA will need to get a visa. This means that the likes of TRUE (if he's picked up by a non-kespa team), Journey and Ragnarok for example are just fucked. To obtain a visa, you need a good reason for it. "I'm going to participate in a video game tournament which may or may not allow me to sustain myself" isn't a good reason, it's a shitty one.
Visas are obviously more easily given to established WCS players, so by blocking out new Koreans from going into WCS, you're blocking them their prime argument to get a visa. I may not be 100% certain on how obtaining visas work, but it seems logical that you'd get a visa if you're sure that you're going to do something in EU. So by forcing players to play in WCS only after getting the visa, you're making it even more difficult for them to come into EU.
The quality of play of WCS foreigner is only going to go downhill from there. It won't even be funny. There are like three legitimate players from North America. Scarlett, Major and HuK. We do have Polt and Violet who also live in the US.0 The rest is small fry. Who on earth is going to watch a tournament with 5 good players? I'm disregarding LatAm, Oceania/SEA, CN, and TW/HK/Macau, obviously, though let's be serious with those regions taken into account, you might get another three players, who I can't name off the top of my head. That just goes to show how weak WCS AM would become. All the skill that Koreans injected in WCS AM by being tough competition would now leave. Viewership will go down from here on out. No one cares about two random NA scrubs playing a Bo3 with each other. Taeja vs Jaedong on the other hand is a clash of monsters which is worth tuning into even if you're a "i-only-watch-the-gsl" hipster.
Blizzard, killing starcraft. ded gaem The saltiness is real. Of course it's real, I really like this damn game called Starcraft. I'm less about the flashiness that you'd get from the players and more about appreciating the incredible things they do in the game. Getting rid of high level play and dumbing things down to cater shitty players is the worst possible thing that could happen. ded gaem E: crap double post sorry
Yea, i just think its naive to think that interest in SC2 will stay as big as in Europe and America if Koreans will win everything, even the European and American championship. I really think that the region lock shouldnt have ever been removed and that WCS KR shouldve stayed as a different tournament than GSL.
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On September 06 2014 04:47 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 04:39 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 04:37 iamcaustic wrote:On September 06 2014 03:27 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 03:13 Silvana wrote:On September 06 2014 03:11 Squat wrote:On September 06 2014 03:05 Zahanator wrote:On September 06 2014 03:01 Circumstance wrote:On September 06 2014 02:59 Starecat wrote:On September 06 2014 02:55 Circumstance wrote:
A massive portion of this argument is based on the flawed premise that the Koreans will always be better than the foreigners in perpetuity no matter what. That continued belief is the reason WCS is needed in the first place. They won every big international tournament, so they are better. There's a pretty substantial difference between "currently are" and "will always be". Foreigners sure won't get better by competing against each other at their crappy level. How did anyone ever get good at anything then? Someone somewhere started by flinging goatshit at the cave wall, and eventually we got the Sistine Chapel. Foreigners will get better for sure, but they won't catch up with the Koreans. I think that's what he was trying to say. Seems that way. I know people are saying that foreigners having more opportunity for money (this is pretty much only for NA because EU will have basically the same Koreans) will make them train harder and get better, but there are a good number of Europeans who have said that having Koreans in their region has made them improve drastically. Just ask Snute Yes, but there's a difference between the rare, dedicated foreigner piggybacking off Korean skill to reach similar levels (there's always some foreign hope at any given time) and an entire region actually being competitive. To say that Snute is as good as Korea, an entire region, is missing the point that most of EU (and especially AM) cannot compare with the current setup. Snute is also in a good position as a player for Team Liquid, one of the very few organizations that's financially stable and allows its players to dedicate their time to the game. But Snute isn't the only one who has credited Korean presence in EU with making the whole scene better, that was just an example. Or am I wrong? I dunno I was pretty sure several players had said that Just look at all the foreigners who are actually good at the game. Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 04:44 Noocta wrote:On September 06 2014 04:34 Incognoto wrote:
Why? Because NA players, with a few exceptions, are bad. The only unfair thing between KR and NA is the difference in player strength. This is legitimate player welfare: you guys are bad yet you aren't Korean. So we're going to help you. Koreans, yes, they're good. So let's make sure they have to go through incredibly difficult procedures to make sure that they can't play. Welcome to modern Esport, it's not about who's the best, it's about who's the most marketable. Isn't actual skill marketable though? That's the whole point of esports. It's not like the skilled players aren't marketable, look at the viewers IEM Flash got.
There's a reason EG is one of, if not the most, successful business in eSports. It's not all about skill.
On September 06 2014 04:51 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 04:47 Luolis wrote:On September 06 2014 04:45 Incognoto wrote:
The entire "Koreans should come get visas to stay in the region they want to compete in" argument is also fucking bullshit. This doesn't apply to Koreans who are already living in Europe, obviously. However, it means that players from Korea who possibly want to come into EU / NA will need to get a visa. This means that the likes of TRUE (if he's picked up by a non-kespa team), Journey and Ragnarok for example are just fucked. To obtain a visa, you need a good reason for it. "I'm going to participate in a video game tournament which may or may not allow me to sustain myself" isn't a good reason, it's a shitty one.
Visas are obviously more easily given to established WCS players, so by blocking out new Koreans from going into WCS, you're blocking them their prime argument to get a visa. I may not be 100% certain on how obtaining visas work, but it seems logical that you'd get a visa if you're sure that you're going to do something in EU. So by forcing players to play in WCS only after getting the visa, you're making it even more difficult for them to come into EU.
The quality of play of WCS foreigner is only going to go downhill from there. It won't even be funny. There are like three legitimate players from North America. Scarlett, Major and HuK. We do have Polt and Violet who also live in the US.0 The rest is small fry. Who on earth is going to watch a tournament with 5 good players? I'm disregarding LatAm, Oceania/SEA, CN, and TW/HK/Macau, obviously, though let's be serious with those regions taken into account, you might get another three players, who I can't name off the top of my head. That just goes to show how weak WCS AM would become. All the skill that Koreans injected in WCS AM by being tough competition would now leave. Viewership will go down from here on out. No one cares about two random NA scrubs playing a Bo3 with each other. Taeja vs Jaedong on the other hand is a clash of monsters which is worth tuning into even if you're a "i-only-watch-the-gsl" hipster.
Blizzard, killing starcraft. ded gaem The saltiness is real. Of course it's real, I really like this damn game called Starcraft. I'm less about the flashiness that you'd get from the players and more about appreciating the incredible things they do in the game. Getting rid of high level play and dumbing things down to cater shitty players is the worst possible thing that could happen. ded gaem E: crap double post sorry
Good news for you then, WCS EU will still more or less stay the same, and WCS Korea should get even MORE competitive! Isn't that what you want? The highest level of competition?!
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Hope this works out, but I have my doubts. People want to watch the best. 
And in all honestly, besides a handful of forign players, most of them play like chobos compared to Koreans.
But, hey maybe this will make some Koreans decide to move full time to a region, but I doubt it.
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On September 06 2014 04:45 Incognoto wrote:
The entire "Koreans should come get visas to stay in the region they want to compete in" argument is also fucking bullshit. This doesn't apply to Koreans who are already living in Europe, obviously. However, it means that players from Korea who possibly want to come into EU / NA will need to get a visa. This means that the likes of TRUE (if he's picked up by a non-kespa team), Journey and Ragnarok for example are just fucked. To obtain a visa, you need a good reason for it. "I'm going to participate in a video game tournament which may or may not allow me to sustain myself" isn't a good reason, it's a shitty one.
Visas are obviously more easily given to established WCS players, so by blocking out new Koreans from going into WCS, you're blocking them their prime argument to get a visa. I may not be 100% certain on how obtaining visas work, but it seems logical that you'd get a visa if you're sure that you're going to do something in EU. So by forcing players to play in WCS only after getting the visa, you're making it even more difficult for them to come into EU.
The quality of play of WCS foreigner is only going to go downhill from there. It won't even be funny. There are like three legitimate players from North America. Scarlett, Major and HuK. We do have Polt and Violet who also live in the US.0 The rest is small fry. Who on earth is going to watch a tournament with 5 good players? I'm disregarding LatAm, Oceania/SEA, CN, and TW/HK/Macau, obviously, though let's be serious with those regions taken into account, you might get another three players, who I can't name off the top of my head. That just goes to show how weak WCS AM would become. All the skill that Koreans injected in WCS AM by being tough competition would now leave. Viewership will go down from here on out. No one cares about two random NA scrubs playing a Bo3 with each other. Taeja vs Jaedong on the other hand is a clash of monsters which is worth tuning into even if you're a "i-only-watch-the-gsl" hipster.
Blizzard, killing starcraft. ded gaem
It's easier just team to "hire" that player than starting to explain what he is going to do.
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On September 06 2014 04:55 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 04:47 Incognoto wrote:On September 06 2014 04:39 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 04:37 iamcaustic wrote:On September 06 2014 03:27 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 03:13 Silvana wrote:On September 06 2014 03:11 Squat wrote:On September 06 2014 03:05 Zahanator wrote:On September 06 2014 03:01 Circumstance wrote:On September 06 2014 02:59 Starecat wrote:
[quote]
They won every big international tournament, so they are better. There's a pretty substantial difference between "currently are" and "will always be". Foreigners sure won't get better by competing against each other at their crappy level. How did anyone ever get good at anything then? Someone somewhere started by flinging goatshit at the cave wall, and eventually we got the Sistine Chapel. Foreigners will get better for sure, but they won't catch up with the Koreans. I think that's what he was trying to say. Seems that way. I know people are saying that foreigners having more opportunity for money (this is pretty much only for NA because EU will have basically the same Koreans) will make them train harder and get better, but there are a good number of Europeans who have said that having Koreans in their region has made them improve drastically. Just ask Snute Yes, but there's a difference between the rare, dedicated foreigner piggybacking off Korean skill to reach similar levels (there's always some foreign hope at any given time) and an entire region actually being competitive. To say that Snute is as good as Korea, an entire region, is missing the point that most of EU (and especially AM) cannot compare with the current setup. Snute is also in a good position as a player for Team Liquid, one of the very few organizations that's financially stable and allows its players to dedicate their time to the game. But Snute isn't the only one who has credited Korean presence in EU with making the whole scene better, that was just an example. Or am I wrong? I dunno I was pretty sure several players had said that Just look at all the foreigners who are actually good at the game. On September 06 2014 04:44 Noocta wrote:On September 06 2014 04:34 Incognoto wrote:
Why? Because NA players, with a few exceptions, are bad. The only unfair thing between KR and NA is the difference in player strength. This is legitimate player welfare: you guys are bad yet you aren't Korean. So we're going to help you. Koreans, yes, they're good. So let's make sure they have to go through incredibly difficult procedures to make sure that they can't play. Welcome to modern Esport, it's not about who's the best, it's about who's the most marketable. Isn't actual skill marketable though? That's the whole point of esports. It's not like the skilled players aren't marketable, look at the viewers IEM Flash got. There's a reason EG is one of, if not the most, successful business in eSports. It's not all about skill. Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 04:51 Incognoto wrote:On September 06 2014 04:47 Luolis wrote:On September 06 2014 04:45 Incognoto wrote:
The entire "Koreans should come get visas to stay in the region they want to compete in" argument is also fucking bullshit. This doesn't apply to Koreans who are already living in Europe, obviously. However, it means that players from Korea who possibly want to come into EU / NA will need to get a visa. This means that the likes of TRUE (if he's picked up by a non-kespa team), Journey and Ragnarok for example are just fucked. To obtain a visa, you need a good reason for it. "I'm going to participate in a video game tournament which may or may not allow me to sustain myself" isn't a good reason, it's a shitty one.
Visas are obviously more easily given to established WCS players, so by blocking out new Koreans from going into WCS, you're blocking them their prime argument to get a visa. I may not be 100% certain on how obtaining visas work, but it seems logical that you'd get a visa if you're sure that you're going to do something in EU. So by forcing players to play in WCS only after getting the visa, you're making it even more difficult for them to come into EU.
The quality of play of WCS foreigner is only going to go downhill from there. It won't even be funny. There are like three legitimate players from North America. Scarlett, Major and HuK. We do have Polt and Violet who also live in the US.0 The rest is small fry. Who on earth is going to watch a tournament with 5 good players? I'm disregarding LatAm, Oceania/SEA, CN, and TW/HK/Macau, obviously, though let's be serious with those regions taken into account, you might get another three players, who I can't name off the top of my head. That just goes to show how weak WCS AM would become. All the skill that Koreans injected in WCS AM by being tough competition would now leave. Viewership will go down from here on out. No one cares about two random NA scrubs playing a Bo3 with each other. Taeja vs Jaedong on the other hand is a clash of monsters which is worth tuning into even if you're a "i-only-watch-the-gsl" hipster.
Blizzard, killing starcraft. ded gaem The saltiness is real. Of course it's real, I really like this damn game called Starcraft. I'm less about the flashiness that you'd get from the players and more about appreciating the incredible things they do in the game. Getting rid of high level play and dumbing things down to cater shitty players is the worst possible thing that could happen. ded gaem E: crap double post sorry Good news for you then, WCS EU will still more or less stay the same, and WCS Korea should get even MORE competitive! Isn't that what you want? The highest level of competition?!
Then why not just seed Winter, Avilo, and Destiny into Blizzcon? You want the popular players after all, no?
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EPT
