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WCS AM will continue to include LatAm, Oceania/SEA, CN, and TW/HK/Macau, you can all stop freaking out about it. |
United States23455 Posts
On September 06 2014 04:07 AWalker9 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 04:05 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 04:01 AWalker9 wrote:Desrow really seems to dislike Koreans I don't necessarily think he means that, but I do think he cares more about the livelihood of NA players than KR players. He basically says, "I know Koreans might get forced into retirement but now we won't be forced into retirement so it's better!" He just comes across in way that makes it seem like he doesn't care about the Korean scene in anyway shape or form. Players like aLive will probably forced to retire with changes like these which seem at this moment in time damage the Korean scene.
I dunno at least aLive made Code A and was (briefly) playing in SPL. He has integrated back into Korea at least a little bit, provided he can get another team. But yeah most likely several Korean pros will be forced to retire or at least move to a more part time situation if they work and still try to qualify for GSL
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Overall, I agree with region locking although I lament the decline in quality of matches outside of Korea. It's fair and gives 'foreigners' a good chance to make a decent wage and I would imagine a greater fan engagement with the frequency and visibility of foreigners in both WCS and other premier/major tournaments. As long as StarCraft wins, I'm happy.
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How did they managed to misspell our God's name?
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United States23455 Posts
On September 06 2014 04:09 Shellshock wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 04:06 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 04:04 Grumbels wrote:
This entire argument that we need to do something so that foreigners can improve is ridiculous. No matter what happens, foreigners will never be better than koreans at starcraft, because we will never achieve the popularity bw had in korea and we will never replicate the korean work ethic and we will never build the same infrastructure. It's like saying we need to do something about the rising sea levels and trying to get a few more people to carry buckets of water out of the ocean.
And I don't think it's necessary for foreigers to be equal in skill. Just region lock and everyone will have their desired eu/na only competition, just like how some people watch college sports even if that's not the same quality as professional sports. The problem with "fuck it just region lock errrthing" is that there are the global finals where the foreigners would be taking spots of more competitive Korean players and getting obliterated but still getting a decent chunk of cash what is the general opinion of it in the LoL scene? Don't they do something similar?
I dunno exactly what the LoL scene thinks, but it's pretty obvious that Koreans dominate at every international event, and we are seeing things like Koreans coming to take roster spots in LCS NA (TSM, CLG, EG) and Chinese teams moving to NA (LMQ) but they do have a residency requirement. I think the "foreign" teams in LoL have huge fan followings, but they get rekt at the international level. See IEM Katowice where a mid tier Korean team won the event without dropping a game against some of the EU heavy hitters.
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On September 06 2014 04:09 Shellshock wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 04:06 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 04:04 Grumbels wrote:
This entire argument that we need to do something so that foreigners can improve is ridiculous. No matter what happens, foreigners will never be better than koreans at starcraft, because we will never achieve the popularity bw had in korea and we will never replicate the korean work ethic and we will never build the same infrastructure. It's like saying we need to do something about the rising sea levels and trying to get a few more people to carry buckets of water out of the ocean.
And I don't think it's necessary for foreigers to be equal in skill. Just region lock and everyone will have their desired eu/na only competition, just like how some people watch college sports even if that's not the same quality as professional sports. The problem with "fuck it just region lock errrthing" is that there are the global finals where the foreigners would be taking spots of more competitive Korean players and getting obliterated but still getting a decent chunk of cash what is the general opinion of it in the LoL scene? Don't they do something similar?
There's no region lock per se, I suppose they already have a soft lock in place. Evil Geniuses and LMQ in the North American scene just needed visas to be involved in the NA circuit.
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On September 06 2014 04:13 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:How did they managed to misspell our God's name?
Propably filthy Flash pagans 
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Region lock is a bad idea, here is why:
With region locks, we will have people are the best in their respective regions, but not the world going to Blizzcon finals. We will probably have only 7-8 players tops from Korea, while the rest are foreigners. But is this really what we want? There is a huge skill gap between the top of the NA scene and top of Korea scene. Do the audience really want to a player (for example, Major) get stomped in the finals? It will not make for very exciting games, especially if the spectators already know who will win beforehand.
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United States23455 Posts
On September 06 2014 04:14 JVDK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 04:09 Shellshock wrote:On September 06 2014 04:06 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 04:04 Grumbels wrote:
This entire argument that we need to do something so that foreigners can improve is ridiculous. No matter what happens, foreigners will never be better than koreans at starcraft, because we will never achieve the popularity bw had in korea and we will never replicate the korean work ethic and we will never build the same infrastructure. It's like saying we need to do something about the rising sea levels and trying to get a few more people to carry buckets of water out of the ocean.
And I don't think it's necessary for foreigers to be equal in skill. Just region lock and everyone will have their desired eu/na only competition, just like how some people watch college sports even if that's not the same quality as professional sports. The problem with "fuck it just region lock errrthing" is that there are the global finals where the foreigners would be taking spots of more competitive Korean players and getting obliterated but still getting a decent chunk of cash what is the general opinion of it in the LoL scene? Don't they do something similar? There's no region lock per se, I suppose they already have a soft lock in place. Evil Geniuses and LMQ in the North American scene just needed visas to be involved in the NA circuit.
Their region lock is the same one proposed here: you must reside in the region where you are going to play. LMQ moved to America did they not?
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On September 05 2014 20:09 SinO[Ob] wrote:
Finally a good region lock rule!
Like that we will still have the MMA/MC/Stardust in EU and Polt/some axiom guys? in NA. Without having a R016 full of korean. Finally this nonsense is over!
Now having GSL waaaaaaaay more points for ppl particpating in(Like RO8 2 on 3 times can go to blizzcon right away). And we will have a reasonnable Blizzcon.
2015 More forigners In the front scene! Finally those guy will have the impression to fight for something they can achieve (without having to train 3 years like a robot!) Players with personnality plz!
What an appalling post. As if Koreans are somehow less deserving than foreigners because they practice more. Koreans are also devoid of personality apparently.
This is like hours late but I still felt the urge to quote this post and say how fucking stupid this post is.
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On September 06 2014 04:15 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 04:14 JVDK wrote:On September 06 2014 04:09 Shellshock wrote:On September 06 2014 04:06 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 04:04 Grumbels wrote:
This entire argument that we need to do something so that foreigners can improve is ridiculous. No matter what happens, foreigners will never be better than koreans at starcraft, because we will never achieve the popularity bw had in korea and we will never replicate the korean work ethic and we will never build the same infrastructure. It's like saying we need to do something about the rising sea levels and trying to get a few more people to carry buckets of water out of the ocean.
And I don't think it's necessary for foreigers to be equal in skill. Just region lock and everyone will have their desired eu/na only competition, just like how some people watch college sports even if that's not the same quality as professional sports. The problem with "fuck it just region lock errrthing" is that there are the global finals where the foreigners would be taking spots of more competitive Korean players and getting obliterated but still getting a decent chunk of cash what is the general opinion of it in the LoL scene? Don't they do something similar? There's no region lock per se, I suppose they already have a soft lock in place. Evil Geniuses and LMQ in the North American scene just needed visas to be involved in the NA circuit. Their region lock is the same one proposed here: you must reside in the region where you are going to play. LMQ moved to America did they not?
They did, yes
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United States23455 Posts
On September 06 2014 04:16 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2014 20:09 SinO[Ob] wrote:
Finally a good region lock rule!
Like that we will still have the MMA/MC/Stardust in EU and Polt/some axiom guys? in NA. Without having a R016 full of korean. Finally this nonsense is over!
Now having GSL waaaaaaaay more points for ppl particpating in(Like RO8 2 on 3 times can go to blizzcon right away). And we will have a reasonnable Blizzcon.
2015 More forigners In the front scene! Finally those guy will have the impression to fight for something they can achieve (without having to train 3 years like a robot!) Players with personnality plz! What an appalling post. As if Koreans are somehow less deserving than foreigners because they practice more. Koreans are also devoid of personality apparently. This is like hours late but I still felt the urge to quote this post and say how fucking stupid this post is.
2015 More forigners In the front scene! Finally those guy will have the impression to fight for something they can achieve (without having to train 3 years like a robot!) Players with personnality plz!
The personality thing is dumb, but what really gets me is when he says, "they can win stuff without training for 3 years like a robot!" First of all he is calling Koreans robots and second he is rejoicing that players can now win without working as hard, belittling the work that the Koreans put in to get better than the foreigners in the first place.
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Instead of this Europeans and Americans should start their own leagues, but not as a part of WCS, something like China recently launched,
+ Show Spoiler +http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GPL_2014_Season_1
but it should not be a part of WCS.
They could make a system where you have:
GSL (which anyone can participate in and you can play it alongside as your own region league) which would award highest amount of points, followed by independent events: Tier 1, Tier 2 etc. which everyone can participate in aswell.
That way foreigners can compete with each other, fans of those competitions would be able to enjoy watching it, lot of younger foreigners would get more exposure, and BlizzCon as the Grand Final would be reserved for the top 16 players in the world. And hey if you're good you could win a Dreamhack here and there, qualify for Code S Ro16 of GSL now and then and maybe you'll have a chance to play at BlizzCon if you deserve to.
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United States23455 Posts
On September 06 2014 04:22 REyeM wrote:Instead of this Europeans and Americans should start their own leagues, but not as a part of WCS, something like China recently launched, + Show Spoiler +http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GPL_2014_Season_1 but it should not be a part of WCS. They could make a system where you have: GSL (which anyone can participate in and you can play it alongside as your own region league) which would award highest amount of points, followed by independent events: Tier 1, Tier 2 etc. which everyone can participate in aswell. That way foreigners can compete with each other, fans of those competitions would be able to enjoy watching it, lot of younger foreigners would get more exposure, and BlizzCon as the Grand Final would be reserved for the top 16 players in the world. And hey if you're good you could win a Dreamhack here and there, qualify for Code S Ro16 of GSL now and then and maybe you'll have a chance to play at BlizzCon if you deserve to.
The problem here is where can you get the money to host a tournament of that size for only EU/NA players? Blizzard funds WCS but who would fund this other league?
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On September 06 2014 03:49 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 03:35 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On September 06 2014 03:32 Squat wrote:On September 06 2014 03:27 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 03:13 Silvana wrote:On September 06 2014 03:11 Squat wrote:On September 06 2014 03:05 Zahanator wrote:On September 06 2014 03:01 Circumstance wrote:On September 06 2014 02:59 Starecat wrote:On September 06 2014 02:55 Circumstance wrote:
A massive portion of this argument is based on the flawed premise that the Koreans will always be better than the foreigners in perpetuity no matter what. That continued belief is the reason WCS is needed in the first place. They won every big international tournament, so they are better. There's a pretty substantial difference between "currently are" and "will always be". Foreigners sure won't get better by competing against each other at their crappy level. How did anyone ever get good at anything then? Someone somewhere started by flinging goatshit at the cave wall, and eventually we got the Sistine Chapel. Foreigners will get better for sure, but they won't catch up with the Koreans. I think that's what he was trying to say. Seems that way. I know people are saying that foreigners having more opportunity for money (this is pretty much only for NA because EU will have basically the same Koreans) will make them train harder and get better, but there are a good number of Europeans who have said that having Koreans in their region has made them improve drastically. Just ask Snute There is a vast difference between having Koreans fully integrate with the scene and provide steady, consistent access to higher level practice, a la WCS EU, as opposed to them just coming over and beating up the locals, taking all the money, and then going home, like in WCS NA. Yep. Way more incentive to train hard and try to beat the guy you play with every day, than the jackass who swoops in to steal all the money. It's a perception thing, really. IMO, with (most likely) less Koreans in AM, it should actually encourage people to train even harder. They will still have to practice and improve to stay ahead of their peers, with the added bonus of having a real chance at all that training paying off. It's gotta be real discouraging to practice a ton and train only to keep getting destroyed by Korean players. But they will still go to the global finals and get destroyed by Korean players right? I mean they won't have any practice against Koreans leading up to it
Sure, but at least you don't have to come up against the Korean Monster constantly. Every time you try to play in your regional competition. That shit has to be demoralizing. It's much better to compete against your peers, and then see how you stack up in the global finals. You get the short term goal of winning your region and bettering your peers, and still have that long term goal of stacking up against the best of the best.
IMO, the Global Finals/Blizzcon pretty much should end up with Ro4 as Koreans every time. They ARE the best, and that's when it should really matter.
Also, there's a reason Shoutcraft America did so well viewerwise, btw, even with only the "lower tier" American players. People will watch competitors of a similar level of skill fight it out for something that matters. No one wants to watch a one sided beat down between a top tier Korean like Taeja/Jaedong/HerO/whoever vs an AM player.
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On September 06 2014 04:23 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 04:22 REyeM wrote:Instead of this Europeans and Americans should start their own leagues, but not as a part of WCS, something like China recently launched, + Show Spoiler +http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GPL_2014_Season_1 but it should not be a part of WCS. They could make a system where you have: GSL (which anyone can participate in and you can play it alongside as your own region league) which would award highest amount of points, followed by independent events: Tier 1, Tier 2 etc. which everyone can participate in aswell. That way foreigners can compete with each other, fans of those competitions would be able to enjoy watching it, lot of younger foreigners would get more exposure, and BlizzCon as the Grand Final would be reserved for the top 16 players in the world. And hey if you're good you could win a Dreamhack here and there, qualify for Code S Ro16 of GSL now and then and maybe you'll have a chance to play at BlizzCon if you deserve to. The problem here is where can you get the money to host a tournament of that size for only EU/NA players? Blizzard funds WCS but who would fund this other league?
ESL? RedBull?
Edit: Blizzard I guess, GSL prize pool would stay the same.
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United States23455 Posts
On September 06 2014 04:26 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 03:49 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 03:35 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On September 06 2014 03:32 Squat wrote:On September 06 2014 03:27 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 03:13 Silvana wrote:On September 06 2014 03:11 Squat wrote:On September 06 2014 03:05 Zahanator wrote:On September 06 2014 03:01 Circumstance wrote:On September 06 2014 02:59 Starecat wrote:
[quote]
They won every big international tournament, so they are better. There's a pretty substantial difference between "currently are" and "will always be". Foreigners sure won't get better by competing against each other at their crappy level. How did anyone ever get good at anything then? Someone somewhere started by flinging goatshit at the cave wall, and eventually we got the Sistine Chapel. Foreigners will get better for sure, but they won't catch up with the Koreans. I think that's what he was trying to say. Seems that way. I know people are saying that foreigners having more opportunity for money (this is pretty much only for NA because EU will have basically the same Koreans) will make them train harder and get better, but there are a good number of Europeans who have said that having Koreans in their region has made them improve drastically. Just ask Snute There is a vast difference between having Koreans fully integrate with the scene and provide steady, consistent access to higher level practice, a la WCS EU, as opposed to them just coming over and beating up the locals, taking all the money, and then going home, like in WCS NA. Yep. Way more incentive to train hard and try to beat the guy you play with every day, than the jackass who swoops in to steal all the money. It's a perception thing, really. IMO, with (most likely) less Koreans in AM, it should actually encourage people to train even harder. They will still have to practice and improve to stay ahead of their peers, with the added bonus of having a real chance at all that training paying off. It's gotta be real discouraging to practice a ton and train only to keep getting destroyed by Korean players. But they will still go to the global finals and get destroyed by Korean players right? I mean they won't have any practice against Koreans leading up to it Sure, but at least you don't have to come up against the Korean Monster constantly. Every time you try to play in your regional competition. That shit is demoralizing. It's much better to compete against your peers, and then see how you stack up in the global finals. You get the short term goal of winning your region and bettering your peers, and still have that long term goal of stacking up against the best of the best. IMO, the Global Finals/Blizzcon pretty much should end up with Ro4 as Koreans every time. They ARE the best, and that's when it should really matter. Also, there's a reason Shoutcraft America did so well viewerwise, btw, even with only the "lower tier" American players. People will watch competitors of a similar level of skill fight it out for something that matters. No one wants to watch a one sided beat down between a top tier Korean like Taeja/Jaedong/HerO/whoever vs an AM player.
Shoutcraft America didn't do very well viewer wise I thought? I thought he only got a lot of viewers when he did the Shoutcraft Sandisk Invitational with all Koreans?
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All player interviewed support the change. OMG everyone agrees, this must be best thing since sliced bread!
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Vancouver14381 Posts
On September 06 2014 04:15 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 04:14 JVDK wrote:On September 06 2014 04:09 Shellshock wrote:On September 06 2014 04:06 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 04:04 Grumbels wrote:
This entire argument that we need to do something so that foreigners can improve is ridiculous. No matter what happens, foreigners will never be better than koreans at starcraft, because we will never achieve the popularity bw had in korea and we will never replicate the korean work ethic and we will never build the same infrastructure. It's like saying we need to do something about the rising sea levels and trying to get a few more people to carry buckets of water out of the ocean.
And I don't think it's necessary for foreigers to be equal in skill. Just region lock and everyone will have their desired eu/na only competition, just like how some people watch college sports even if that's not the same quality as professional sports. The problem with "fuck it just region lock errrthing" is that there are the global finals where the foreigners would be taking spots of more competitive Korean players and getting obliterated but still getting a decent chunk of cash what is the general opinion of it in the LoL scene? Don't they do something similar? There's no region lock per se, I suppose they already have a soft lock in place. Evil Geniuses and LMQ in the North American scene just needed visas to be involved in the NA circuit. Their region lock is the same one proposed here: you must reside in the region where you are going to play. LMQ moved to America did they not?
LCS has the same residency requirements but the main factor is that the teams have to play live in the studio every week.
+ Show Spoiler +Each player must submit proof that, at the time of any LCS-affiliated match the player wishes to participate in, he/she will be (a) a legal resident of a country in their region, and (b) work-eligible in the United States (for NA players) or Germany (for EU players).
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On September 06 2014 04:29 ragz_gt wrote:All player interviewed support the change. OMG everyone agrees, this must be best thing since sliced bread!
It'd have been better if they'd interviewed some of the Koreans that will be effected by the change
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EPT
