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WCS AM will continue to include LatAm, Oceania/SEA, CN, and TW/HK/Macau, you can all stop freaking out about it. |
On September 06 2014 03:32 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 03:27 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 03:13 Silvana wrote:On September 06 2014 03:11 Squat wrote:On September 06 2014 03:05 Zahanator wrote:On September 06 2014 03:01 Circumstance wrote:On September 06 2014 02:59 Starecat wrote:On September 06 2014 02:55 Circumstance wrote:
A massive portion of this argument is based on the flawed premise that the Koreans will always be better than the foreigners in perpetuity no matter what. That continued belief is the reason WCS is needed in the first place. They won every big international tournament, so they are better. There's a pretty substantial difference between "currently are" and "will always be". Foreigners sure won't get better by competing against each other at their crappy level. How did anyone ever get good at anything then? Someone somewhere started by flinging goatshit at the cave wall, and eventually we got the Sistine Chapel. Foreigners will get better for sure, but they won't catch up with the Koreans. I think that's what he was trying to say. Seems that way. I know people are saying that foreigners having more opportunity for money (this is pretty much only for NA because EU will have basically the same Koreans) will make them train harder and get better, but there are a good number of Europeans who have said that having Koreans in their region has made them improve drastically. Just ask Snute There is a vast difference between having Koreans fully integrate with the scene and provide steady, consistent access to higher level practice, a la WCS EU, as opposed to them just coming over and beating up the locals, taking all the money, and then going home, like in WCS NA.
Yep. Way more incentive to train hard and try to beat the guy you play with every day, than the jackass who swoops in to steal all the money. It's a perception thing, really.
IMO, with (most likely) less Koreans in AM, it should actually encourage people to train even harder. They will still have to practice and improve to stay ahead of their peers, with the added bonus of having a real chance at all that training paying off. It's gotta be real discouraging to practice a ton and train only to keep getting destroyed by Korean players.
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hm, maybe now CLG will enter SC2 also? I remember the team owner was interested in it, but when he found out the region lock is not happening, he backed out. And also, I remember him being interested in DRG when DRG left MVP!
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On September 06 2014 03:45 Ammanas wrote:
hm, maybe now CLG will enter SC2 also? I remember the team owner was interested in it, but when he found out the region lock is not happening, he backed out. And also, I remember him being interested in DRG when DRG left MVP!
CLG joining StarCraft II would be really good.
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United States23455 Posts
On September 06 2014 03:34 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 03:27 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 03:13 Silvana wrote:On September 06 2014 03:11 Squat wrote:On September 06 2014 03:05 Zahanator wrote:On September 06 2014 03:01 Circumstance wrote:On September 06 2014 02:59 Starecat wrote:On September 06 2014 02:55 Circumstance wrote:
A massive portion of this argument is based on the flawed premise that the Koreans will always be better than the foreigners in perpetuity no matter what. That continued belief is the reason WCS is needed in the first place. They won every big international tournament, so they are better. There's a pretty substantial difference between "currently are" and "will always be". Foreigners sure won't get better by competing against each other at their crappy level. How did anyone ever get good at anything then? Someone somewhere started by flinging goatshit at the cave wall, and eventually we got the Sistine Chapel. Foreigners will get better for sure, but they won't catch up with the Koreans. I think that's what he was trying to say. Seems that way. I know people are saying that foreigners having more opportunity for money (this is pretty much only for NA because EU will have basically the same Koreans) will make them train harder and get better, but there are a good number of Europeans who have said that having Koreans in their region has made them improve drastically. Just ask Snute I think that premise only applies if theyre living and competing in that region anyway. How much it helps is because they're always in the weekly cups and on the ladder. When most of the Koreans playing in AM just train on the korean ladder in the first place the same effect isn't felt
But the 200(I dunno if it is 200 or 250) win requirement on the ladder you are playing on would technically help that, provided the players already qualified were required to do that as well rather than just players who are hoping to qualify in the ladder/wildcard qualifier. I think requiring that all players in that region of WCS play at least a portion of their ladder (250 wins or some other number I dunno) would be a start in making that region's ladder more competitive and a better practice environment.
Of course that also leads to things like win trading and such to fill the requirement as quickly as possible. Maybe Blizzard just needs to erect another great wall of lag between KR and NA a la KR to EU to make them move here. Or just do what they are doing now.
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United States23455 Posts
On September 06 2014 03:35 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 03:32 Squat wrote:On September 06 2014 03:27 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 03:13 Silvana wrote:On September 06 2014 03:11 Squat wrote:On September 06 2014 03:05 Zahanator wrote:On September 06 2014 03:01 Circumstance wrote:On September 06 2014 02:59 Starecat wrote:On September 06 2014 02:55 Circumstance wrote:
A massive portion of this argument is based on the flawed premise that the Koreans will always be better than the foreigners in perpetuity no matter what. That continued belief is the reason WCS is needed in the first place. They won every big international tournament, so they are better. There's a pretty substantial difference between "currently are" and "will always be". Foreigners sure won't get better by competing against each other at their crappy level. How did anyone ever get good at anything then? Someone somewhere started by flinging goatshit at the cave wall, and eventually we got the Sistine Chapel. Foreigners will get better for sure, but they won't catch up with the Koreans. I think that's what he was trying to say. Seems that way. I know people are saying that foreigners having more opportunity for money (this is pretty much only for NA because EU will have basically the same Koreans) will make them train harder and get better, but there are a good number of Europeans who have said that having Koreans in their region has made them improve drastically. Just ask Snute There is a vast difference between having Koreans fully integrate with the scene and provide steady, consistent access to higher level practice, a la WCS EU, as opposed to them just coming over and beating up the locals, taking all the money, and then going home, like in WCS NA. Yep. Way more incentive to train hard and try to beat the guy you play with every day, than the jackass who swoops in to steal all the money. It's a perception thing, really. IMO, with (most likely) less Koreans in AM, it should actually encourage people to train even harder. They will still have to practice and improve to stay ahead of their peers, with the added bonus of having a real chance at all that training paying off. It's gotta be real discouraging to practice a ton and train only to keep getting destroyed by Korean players.
But they will still go to the global finals and get destroyed by Korean players right? I mean they won't have any practice against Koreans leading up to it
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Well this will remove some of the koreans from participating in the foreign WCS, but ultimately it's not going to remove them all. And quite frankly, the Koreans are better anyways so why would I want to watch random foreigners be sub-par instead of Koreans be really good? Simply because the foreigners happen to live in the same country I live? Nah, I'd rather see skill.
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On September 06 2014 03:49 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 03:35 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On September 06 2014 03:32 Squat wrote:On September 06 2014 03:27 Darkhorse wrote:On September 06 2014 03:13 Silvana wrote:On September 06 2014 03:11 Squat wrote:On September 06 2014 03:05 Zahanator wrote:On September 06 2014 03:01 Circumstance wrote:On September 06 2014 02:59 Starecat wrote:On September 06 2014 02:55 Circumstance wrote:
A massive portion of this argument is based on the flawed premise that the Koreans will always be better than the foreigners in perpetuity no matter what. That continued belief is the reason WCS is needed in the first place. They won every big international tournament, so they are better. There's a pretty substantial difference between "currently are" and "will always be". Foreigners sure won't get better by competing against each other at their crappy level. How did anyone ever get good at anything then? Someone somewhere started by flinging goatshit at the cave wall, and eventually we got the Sistine Chapel. Foreigners will get better for sure, but they won't catch up with the Koreans. I think that's what he was trying to say. Seems that way. I know people are saying that foreigners having more opportunity for money (this is pretty much only for NA because EU will have basically the same Koreans) will make them train harder and get better, but there are a good number of Europeans who have said that having Koreans in their region has made them improve drastically. Just ask Snute There is a vast difference between having Koreans fully integrate with the scene and provide steady, consistent access to higher level practice, a la WCS EU, as opposed to them just coming over and beating up the locals, taking all the money, and then going home, like in WCS NA. Yep. Way more incentive to train hard and try to beat the guy you play with every day, than the jackass who swoops in to steal all the money. It's a perception thing, really. IMO, with (most likely) less Koreans in AM, it should actually encourage people to train even harder. They will still have to practice and improve to stay ahead of their peers, with the added bonus of having a real chance at all that training paying off. It's gotta be real discouraging to practice a ton and train only to keep getting destroyed by Korean players. But they will still go to the global finals and get destroyed by Korean players right? I mean they won't have any practice against Koreans leading up to it
At least they tried though
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The 200 win requirement turned out to be more or less a joke. The Koreans just cheesed non stop or mass gamed over a few days and then went back to Korea. I'm pretty sure there was a decent amount of wintrading in there too. If you want NA to grow the way EU has, you have to apply the same method. You learn nothing by getting 3-0d by Taeja in 25 minutes. If you constantly run in to him on ladder over six months, you probably will learn something.
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United States23455 Posts
On September 06 2014 03:54 Squat wrote:
The 200 win requirement turned out to be more or less a joke. The Koreans just cheesed non stop or mass gamed over a few days and then went back to Korea. I'm pretty sure there was a decent amount of wintrading in there too. If you want NA to grow the way EU has, you have to apply the same method. You learn nothing by getting 3-0d by Taeja in 25 minutes. If you constantly run in to him on ladder over six months, you probably will learn something.
Actually I think you might learn that you better work on your 2 rax defense.
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On September 06 2014 03:55 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 03:54 Squat wrote:
The 200 win requirement turned out to be more or less a joke. The Koreans just cheesed non stop or mass gamed over a few days and then went back to Korea. I'm pretty sure there was a decent amount of wintrading in there too. If you want NA to grow the way EU has, you have to apply the same method. You learn nothing by getting 3-0d by Taeja in 25 minutes. If you constantly run in to him on ladder over six months, you probably will learn something. Actually I think you might learn that you better work on your 2 rax defense.
Using it worked out pretty well for DeMuslim in his pursuit for WCS
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If there will be no season finals, prize pools should be 150K:100K:100K across KR:EU:NA with left over for more Kespa/Gsl cups.
If there will be season finals, representations should be 8:4:4 for the season finals.
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Desrow really seems to dislike Koreans
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United States23455 Posts
No doubt that the changes will help NA players make more money and have a more sustainable career playing SC2. Their practice environment will probably stay the same.
the thing that sucks about it are the players in WCS AM right now who now must either move to NA or try to participate in an over saturated GSL
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This entire argument that we need to do something so that foreigners can improve is ridiculous. No matter what happens, foreigners will never be better than koreans at starcraft, because we will never achieve the popularity bw had in korea and we will never replicate the korean work ethic and we will never build the same infrastructure. It's like saying we need to do something about the rising sea levels and trying to get a few more people to carry buckets of water out of the ocean.
And I don't think it's necessary for foreigers to be equal in skill. Just region lock and everyone will have their desired eu/na only competition, just like how some people watch college sports even if that's not the same quality as professional sports.
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United States23455 Posts
On September 06 2014 04:01 AWalker9 wrote:Desrow really seems to dislike Koreans
I don't necessarily think he means that, but I do think he cares more about the livelihood of NA players than KR players. He basically says, "I know Koreans might get forced into retirement but now we won't be forced into retirement so it's better!"
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WCS Korea should be recompensed with a greater WCS point/prize pool, for both difficulty and what should be a fairer representation of who really should be in the top 16 by year's end.
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United States23455 Posts
On September 06 2014 04:04 Grumbels wrote:
This entire argument that we need to do something so that foreigners can improve is ridiculous. No matter what happens, foreigners will never be better than koreans at starcraft, because we will never achieve the popularity bw had in korea and we will never replicate the korean work ethic and we will never build the same infrastructure. It's like saying we need to do something about the rising sea levels and trying to get a few more people to carry buckets of water out of the ocean.
And I don't think it's necessary for foreigers to be equal in skill. Just region lock and everyone will have their desired eu/na only competition, just like how some people watch college sports even if that's not the same quality as professional sports.
The problem with "fuck it just region lock errrthing" is that there are the global finals where the foreigners would be taking spots of more competitive Korean players and getting obliterated but still getting a decent chunk of cash
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On September 06 2014 04:05 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 04:01 AWalker9 wrote:Desrow really seems to dislike Koreans I don't necessarily think he means that, but I do think he cares more about the livelihood of NA players than KR players. He basically says, "I know Koreans might get forced into retirement but now we won't be forced into retirement so it's better!"
He just comes across in way that makes it seem like he doesn't care about the Korean scene in anyway shape or form. Players like aLive will probably forced to retire with changes like these which seem at this moment in time damage the Korean scene.
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United States97277 Posts
On September 06 2014 04:06 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 04:04 Grumbels wrote:
This entire argument that we need to do something so that foreigners can improve is ridiculous. No matter what happens, foreigners will never be better than koreans at starcraft, because we will never achieve the popularity bw had in korea and we will never replicate the korean work ethic and we will never build the same infrastructure. It's like saying we need to do something about the rising sea levels and trying to get a few more people to carry buckets of water out of the ocean.
And I don't think it's necessary for foreigers to be equal in skill. Just region lock and everyone will have their desired eu/na only competition, just like how some people watch college sports even if that's not the same quality as professional sports. The problem with "fuck it just region lock errrthing" is that there are the global finals where the foreigners would be taking spots of more competitive Korean players and getting obliterated but still getting a decent chunk of cash
what is the general opinion of it in the LoL scene? Don't they do something similar?
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EPT
