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WCS AM will continue to include LatAm, Oceania/SEA, CN, and TW/HK/Macau, you can all stop freaking out about it. |
On September 05 2014 11:13 Arceus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2014 11:05 Wroshe wrote:On September 05 2014 11:02 stuchiu wrote:On September 05 2014 11:00 Wroshe wrote:
What is to stop koreans from getting a residency visa for NA countries not being USA/Canada (think mexico/colombia but more likely, Taiwan/Singapore/Malaysia) and take NA spots that way?
Also WCS EU will still be incredibly stacked with MC, First, Yoda, Jjakji, Stardust, Patience, Golden, ForGG and HYUN all living in europe under visa's that would allow them to participate. NA is hell to get a visa. I guess they can try to work around it and get a visa in China/Tw/Sea/Mx/Canada though and see if Blizzard lets them. I very well realise that getting a visa for Canada or the USA is incredibly hard. I however very much doubt that it would be as hard to get a visa for countries like Peru, Belize or Jamaica. Also there is currently a lucrative sounding loophole around which would involve getting a visa for Taiwan, play in all the local TeSL tournaments and take a spot in the Taiwanese qualifier for WCS NA. Get a visa then stay in Peru/Belize/Jamaica to practice starcraft? Relocate to another country is a huge huge move for anyone even if it's for studying/working. You consider it too lightly imo
Plus you have to consider the factors of the other countries not being big e-sport powerhouses and lacking the proper infrastructure to maintain ideal practice conditions. Do you really see an entire group of Koreans moving to Belize or Argentina to practice in the best places? Even NA at its worst had teamhouses and infrastructure to maintain a few players and a fairly solid player background even if it isn't the greatest.
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On September 05 2014 11:11 Die4Ever wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2014 11:06 Circumstance wrote:
It's better for Starcraft overall if a single country doesn't dominate the scene entirely. There are two schools of thought when it comes to how foreigners can reach the skill levels necessary so that this ceases to be the case. One is the way that was done these past 2 years - force them to play each other, and eventually, they'll have to either learn or disappear. The other school of thought is this new one - give them something to compete for themselves, and a foreign competitive circuit can develop to the point where they can actually dedicate themselves to full-time paying and a dedicated training regiment.
Which one is right? What makes things work better for Starcraft? If I knew the answer to that, I'd be looking at a bus schedule to Irvine right now to tell Blizzard myself. They tried one, they're going to try the other. Sadly, any transition to support the foreigners will inevitably come at the expense of the Koreans, in the short term at minimum. That's the reality of it. except they tried that with WCS in 2012
One-off tournaments aren't a circuit. You don't sustain yourself on a single brief event. And WCS 2012 wasn't an effort to create a sustained scene, which we recognize is what's needed right now.
Besides which, it's not as if ESL and Dreamhack will just stop letting Koreans in. While it's nowhere near the same, there will still be consistent Korean-vs-foreign competition.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On September 05 2014 11:18 PhoenixVoid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2014 11:13 Arceus wrote:On September 05 2014 11:05 Wroshe wrote:On September 05 2014 11:02 stuchiu wrote:On September 05 2014 11:00 Wroshe wrote:
What is to stop koreans from getting a residency visa for NA countries not being USA/Canada (think mexico/colombia but more likely, Taiwan/Singapore/Malaysia) and take NA spots that way?
Also WCS EU will still be incredibly stacked with MC, First, Yoda, Jjakji, Stardust, Patience, Golden, ForGG and HYUN all living in europe under visa's that would allow them to participate. NA is hell to get a visa. I guess they can try to work around it and get a visa in China/Tw/Sea/Mx/Canada though and see if Blizzard lets them. I very well realise that getting a visa for Canada or the USA is incredibly hard. I however very much doubt that it would be as hard to get a visa for countries like Peru, Belize or Jamaica. Also there is currently a lucrative sounding loophole around which would involve getting a visa for Taiwan, play in all the local TeSL tournaments and take a spot in the Taiwanese qualifier for WCS NA. Get a visa then stay in Peru/Belize/Jamaica to practice starcraft? Relocate to another country is a huge huge move for anyone even if it's for studying/working. You consider it too lightly imo Plus you have to consider the factors of the other countries not being big e-sport powerhouses and lacking the proper infrastructure to maintain ideal practice conditions. Do you really see an entire group of Koreans moving to Belize or Argentina to practice in the best places? Even NA at its worst had teamhouses and infrastructure to maintain a few players and a fairly solid player background even if it isn't the greatest.
Taiwan is the answer. Leenock and San are still pretty good there.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On September 05 2014 11:18 Circumstance wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2014 11:11 Die4Ever wrote:On September 05 2014 11:06 Circumstance wrote:
It's better for Starcraft overall if a single country doesn't dominate the scene entirely. There are two schools of thought when it comes to how foreigners can reach the skill levels necessary so that this ceases to be the case. One is the way that was done these past 2 years - force them to play each other, and eventually, they'll have to either learn or disappear. The other school of thought is this new one - give them something to compete for themselves, and a foreign competitive circuit can develop to the point where they can actually dedicate themselves to full-time paying and a dedicated training regiment.
Which one is right? What makes things work better for Starcraft? If I knew the answer to that, I'd be looking at a bus schedule to Irvine right now to tell Blizzard myself. They tried one, they're going to try the other. Sadly, any transition to support the foreigners will inevitably come at the expense of the Koreans, in the short term at minimum. That's the reality of it. except they tried that with WCS in 2012 One-off tournaments aren't a circuit. You don't sustain yourself on a single brief event. And WCS 2012 wasn't an effort to create a sustained scene, which we recognize is what's needed right now. Besides which, it's not as if ESL and Dreamhack will just stop letting Koreans in. While it's nowhere near the same, there will still be consistent Korean-vs-foreign competition.
Separating them to raise skill doesn't work though. It didn't work for LoL, it won't work here.
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I think there should be a poll in the OP.
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On September 05 2014 11:12 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2014 11:06 Circumstance wrote:
It's better for Starcraft overall if a single country doesn't dominate the scene entirely. There are two schools of thought when it comes to how foreigners can reach the skill levels necessary so that this ceases to be the case. One is the way that was done these past 2 years - force them to play each other, and eventually, they'll have to either learn or disappear. The other school of thought is this new one - give them something to compete for themselves, and a foreign competitive circuit can develop to the point where they can actually dedicate themselves to full-time paying and a dedicated training regiment.
Which one is right? What makes things work better for Starcraft? If I knew the answer to that, I'd be looking at a bus schedule to Irvine right now to tell Blizzard myself. They tried one, they're going to try the other. Sadly, any transition to support the foreigners will inevitably come at the expense of the Koreans, in the short term at minimum. That's the reality of it. There is a third school of thought. Do what Riot does and forcibly split the regions from Korea so that the fans are dumb enough to believe each year that their teams can maybe beat the koreans before being utterly smashed. Rinse and repeat for years.
Works for every other sport in the world, why not SC2. I hear Japan has baseball and it's popular. I bet none of those teams would do well in the MLB. But Japan gives no fucks.
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Acer got a Teamhouse near Munich, Germany. And MMA stayed there for longer time last year.
Getting MMA a valid visa wount be any form of problem.
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On September 05 2014 11:18 PhoenixVoid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2014 11:13 Arceus wrote:On September 05 2014 11:05 Wroshe wrote:On September 05 2014 11:02 stuchiu wrote:On September 05 2014 11:00 Wroshe wrote:
What is to stop koreans from getting a residency visa for NA countries not being USA/Canada (think mexico/colombia but more likely, Taiwan/Singapore/Malaysia) and take NA spots that way?
Also WCS EU will still be incredibly stacked with MC, First, Yoda, Jjakji, Stardust, Patience, Golden, ForGG and HYUN all living in europe under visa's that would allow them to participate. NA is hell to get a visa. I guess they can try to work around it and get a visa in China/Tw/Sea/Mx/Canada though and see if Blizzard lets them. I very well realise that getting a visa for Canada or the USA is incredibly hard. I however very much doubt that it would be as hard to get a visa for countries like Peru, Belize or Jamaica. Also there is currently a lucrative sounding loophole around which would involve getting a visa for Taiwan, play in all the local TeSL tournaments and take a spot in the Taiwanese qualifier for WCS NA. Get a visa then stay in Peru/Belize/Jamaica to practice starcraft? Relocate to another country is a huge huge move for anyone even if it's for studying/working. You consider it too lightly imo Plus you have to consider the factors of the other countries not being big e-sport powerhouses and lacking the proper infrastructure to maintain ideal practice conditions. Do you really see an entire group of Koreans moving to Belize or Argentina to practice in the best places? Even NA at its worst had teamhouses and infrastructure to maintain a few players and a fairly solid player background even if it isn't the greatest.
Hey time for me to start a progaming team maybe? 
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On September 05 2014 11:18 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2014 11:18 PhoenixVoid wrote:On September 05 2014 11:13 Arceus wrote:On September 05 2014 11:05 Wroshe wrote:On September 05 2014 11:02 stuchiu wrote:On September 05 2014 11:00 Wroshe wrote:
What is to stop koreans from getting a residency visa for NA countries not being USA/Canada (think mexico/colombia but more likely, Taiwan/Singapore/Malaysia) and take NA spots that way?
Also WCS EU will still be incredibly stacked with MC, First, Yoda, Jjakji, Stardust, Patience, Golden, ForGG and HYUN all living in europe under visa's that would allow them to participate. NA is hell to get a visa. I guess they can try to work around it and get a visa in China/Tw/Sea/Mx/Canada though and see if Blizzard lets them. I very well realise that getting a visa for Canada or the USA is incredibly hard. I however very much doubt that it would be as hard to get a visa for countries like Peru, Belize or Jamaica. Also there is currently a lucrative sounding loophole around which would involve getting a visa for Taiwan, play in all the local TeSL tournaments and take a spot in the Taiwanese qualifier for WCS NA. Get a visa then stay in Peru/Belize/Jamaica to practice starcraft? Relocate to another country is a huge huge move for anyone even if it's for studying/working. You consider it too lightly imo Plus you have to consider the factors of the other countries not being big e-sport powerhouses and lacking the proper infrastructure to maintain ideal practice conditions. Do you really see an entire group of Koreans moving to Belize or Argentina to practice in the best places? Even NA at its worst had teamhouses and infrastructure to maintain a few players and a fairly solid player background even if it isn't the greatest. Taiwan is the answer. Leenock and San are still pretty good there.
Yeah I agree with you. I don't know that tesl will be fine with a massive korean arrival though, they might put some limits themselves.
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On September 05 2014 11:19 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2014 11:18 Circumstance wrote:On September 05 2014 11:11 Die4Ever wrote:On September 05 2014 11:06 Circumstance wrote:
It's better for Starcraft overall if a single country doesn't dominate the scene entirely. There are two schools of thought when it comes to how foreigners can reach the skill levels necessary so that this ceases to be the case. One is the way that was done these past 2 years - force them to play each other, and eventually, they'll have to either learn or disappear. The other school of thought is this new one - give them something to compete for themselves, and a foreign competitive circuit can develop to the point where they can actually dedicate themselves to full-time paying and a dedicated training regiment.
Which one is right? What makes things work better for Starcraft? If I knew the answer to that, I'd be looking at a bus schedule to Irvine right now to tell Blizzard myself. They tried one, they're going to try the other. Sadly, any transition to support the foreigners will inevitably come at the expense of the Koreans, in the short term at minimum. That's the reality of it. except they tried that with WCS in 2012 One-off tournaments aren't a circuit. You don't sustain yourself on a single brief event. And WCS 2012 wasn't an effort to create a sustained scene, which we recognize is what's needed right now. Besides which, it's not as if ESL and Dreamhack will just stop letting Koreans in. While it's nowhere near the same, there will still be consistent Korean-vs-foreign competition. Separating them to raise skill doesn't work though. It didn't work for LoL, it won't work here.
What we need for SC2 is one of those men-in-black things that erase your memory.
*Click* " NA and EU SC2 players are just as good as KR sc2 players, now go watch your regional WCS and build hope for Blizzcon only to have it crushed, repeat every year. "
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Fairly interesting change. I'm not sure how to feel about this. It has little impact on WCS Europe the region where WCS integration worked the best in its avowed goals of increasing the level of play in the region, but deeply affects the AM region. It really depends if Blizzards have further changes, possibly some strengthening the Korean tournament scene.
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Fuck blizz... Really dude, WCS NA was good with good games and VODs without having to pay for everything like the GSL...
Now the tourney will be filled with people getting suply blocked losing to Scarlett, Polt and Violet...
Btw people, this affects Dreamhacks and the other weekend tourneys?
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Good news for Prime. Alot of talent will be back in Korea looking for a team. Not sure if foreign tournaments will be korean-less or completely packed with koreans though.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On September 05 2014 11:20 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2014 11:12 stuchiu wrote:On September 05 2014 11:06 Circumstance wrote:
It's better for Starcraft overall if a single country doesn't dominate the scene entirely. There are two schools of thought when it comes to how foreigners can reach the skill levels necessary so that this ceases to be the case. One is the way that was done these past 2 years - force them to play each other, and eventually, they'll have to either learn or disappear. The other school of thought is this new one - give them something to compete for themselves, and a foreign competitive circuit can develop to the point where they can actually dedicate themselves to full-time paying and a dedicated training regiment.
Which one is right? What makes things work better for Starcraft? If I knew the answer to that, I'd be looking at a bus schedule to Irvine right now to tell Blizzard myself. They tried one, they're going to try the other. Sadly, any transition to support the foreigners will inevitably come at the expense of the Koreans, in the short term at minimum. That's the reality of it. There is a third school of thought. Do what Riot does and forcibly split the regions from Korea so that the fans are dumb enough to believe each year that their teams can maybe beat the koreans before being utterly smashed. Rinse and repeat for years. Works for every other sport in the world, why not SC2. I hear Japan has baseball and it's popular. I bet none of those teams would do well in the MLB. But Japan gives no fucks.
It obviously works since LoL is the healthiest esport out there.
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Blizzard can't really create a second WCS event in Korea to make the newly arrived still earn points. If they did, they would either have to limit it to non-gsl people (in which case some people would try and not qualify to gsl so they are eligible to it, that's not a good model), or the people winning it will be the people doing well in GSL, and that's a pointless repeat.
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On September 05 2014 11:22 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2014 11:20 Plansix wrote:On September 05 2014 11:12 stuchiu wrote:On September 05 2014 11:06 Circumstance wrote:
It's better for Starcraft overall if a single country doesn't dominate the scene entirely. There are two schools of thought when it comes to how foreigners can reach the skill levels necessary so that this ceases to be the case. One is the way that was done these past 2 years - force them to play each other, and eventually, they'll have to either learn or disappear. The other school of thought is this new one - give them something to compete for themselves, and a foreign competitive circuit can develop to the point where they can actually dedicate themselves to full-time paying and a dedicated training regiment.
Which one is right? What makes things work better for Starcraft? If I knew the answer to that, I'd be looking at a bus schedule to Irvine right now to tell Blizzard myself. They tried one, they're going to try the other. Sadly, any transition to support the foreigners will inevitably come at the expense of the Koreans, in the short term at minimum. That's the reality of it. There is a third school of thought. Do what Riot does and forcibly split the regions from Korea so that the fans are dumb enough to believe each year that their teams can maybe beat the koreans before being utterly smashed. Rinse and repeat for years. Works for every other sport in the world, why not SC2. I hear Japan has baseball and it's popular. I bet none of those teams would do well in the MLB. But Japan gives no fucks. It obviously works since LoL is the healthiest esport out there.
Exactly. I don't get the people who think it's going to be bad. If you want to watch Korean players, there's pro league and GSL
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On September 05 2014 11:19 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2014 11:18 Circumstance wrote:On September 05 2014 11:11 Die4Ever wrote:On September 05 2014 11:06 Circumstance wrote:
It's better for Starcraft overall if a single country doesn't dominate the scene entirely. There are two schools of thought when it comes to how foreigners can reach the skill levels necessary so that this ceases to be the case. One is the way that was done these past 2 years - force them to play each other, and eventually, they'll have to either learn or disappear. The other school of thought is this new one - give them something to compete for themselves, and a foreign competitive circuit can develop to the point where they can actually dedicate themselves to full-time paying and a dedicated training regiment.
Which one is right? What makes things work better for Starcraft? If I knew the answer to that, I'd be looking at a bus schedule to Irvine right now to tell Blizzard myself. They tried one, they're going to try the other. Sadly, any transition to support the foreigners will inevitably come at the expense of the Koreans, in the short term at minimum. That's the reality of it. except they tried that with WCS in 2012 One-off tournaments aren't a circuit. You don't sustain yourself on a single brief event. And WCS 2012 wasn't an effort to create a sustained scene, which we recognize is what's needed right now. Besides which, it's not as if ESL and Dreamhack will just stop letting Koreans in. While it's nowhere near the same, there will still be consistent Korean-vs-foreign competition. Separating them to raise skill doesn't work though. It didn't work for LoL, it won't work here.
Seems to work decently in Dota. Half of the TI champs have been Chinese, the other half Europeans, and EG made Top 3 this year.
Really, team games aren't a good analogy. Practicing an individual game is so different, and when you get down to it, it's about getting top-level practice environments across the globe.
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On September 05 2014 11:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2014 11:22 stuchiu wrote:On September 05 2014 11:20 Plansix wrote:On September 05 2014 11:12 stuchiu wrote:On September 05 2014 11:06 Circumstance wrote:
It's better for Starcraft overall if a single country doesn't dominate the scene entirely. There are two schools of thought when it comes to how foreigners can reach the skill levels necessary so that this ceases to be the case. One is the way that was done these past 2 years - force them to play each other, and eventually, they'll have to either learn or disappear. The other school of thought is this new one - give them something to compete for themselves, and a foreign competitive circuit can develop to the point where they can actually dedicate themselves to full-time paying and a dedicated training regiment.
Which one is right? What makes things work better for Starcraft? If I knew the answer to that, I'd be looking at a bus schedule to Irvine right now to tell Blizzard myself. They tried one, they're going to try the other. Sadly, any transition to support the foreigners will inevitably come at the expense of the Koreans, in the short term at minimum. That's the reality of it. There is a third school of thought. Do what Riot does and forcibly split the regions from Korea so that the fans are dumb enough to believe each year that their teams can maybe beat the koreans before being utterly smashed. Rinse and repeat for years. Works for every other sport in the world, why not SC2. I hear Japan has baseball and it's popular. I bet none of those teams would do well in the MLB. But Japan gives no fucks. It obviously works since LoL is the healthiest esport out there. Exactly. I don't get the people who think it's going to be bad. If you want to watch Korean players, there's pro league and GSL
It's going to be bad for KR players that will have difficulty competing in GSL because they're not in a top Kespa team or extremely talented. For the KR region overall it probably doesn't change much since their focus is not on WCS, but on PL.
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On September 05 2014 11:25 Circumstance wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2014 11:19 stuchiu wrote:On September 05 2014 11:18 Circumstance wrote:On September 05 2014 11:11 Die4Ever wrote:On September 05 2014 11:06 Circumstance wrote:
It's better for Starcraft overall if a single country doesn't dominate the scene entirely. There are two schools of thought when it comes to how foreigners can reach the skill levels necessary so that this ceases to be the case. One is the way that was done these past 2 years - force them to play each other, and eventually, they'll have to either learn or disappear. The other school of thought is this new one - give them something to compete for themselves, and a foreign competitive circuit can develop to the point where they can actually dedicate themselves to full-time paying and a dedicated training regiment.
Which one is right? What makes things work better for Starcraft? If I knew the answer to that, I'd be looking at a bus schedule to Irvine right now to tell Blizzard myself. They tried one, they're going to try the other. Sadly, any transition to support the foreigners will inevitably come at the expense of the Koreans, in the short term at minimum. That's the reality of it. except they tried that with WCS in 2012 One-off tournaments aren't a circuit. You don't sustain yourself on a single brief event. And WCS 2012 wasn't an effort to create a sustained scene, which we recognize is what's needed right now. Besides which, it's not as if ESL and Dreamhack will just stop letting Koreans in. While it's nowhere near the same, there will still be consistent Korean-vs-foreign competition. Separating them to raise skill doesn't work though. It didn't work for LoL, it won't work here. Seems to work decently in Dota. Half of the TI champs have been Chinese, the other half Europeans, and EG made Top 3 this year. Really, team games aren't a good analogy. Practicing an individual game is so different, and when you get down to it, it's about getting top-level practice environments across the globe.
Yeah, but the regions mix it up a lot more than both LOL and SC2. They play against everyone all the time forever.
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On September 05 2014 11:25 Circumstance wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2014 11:19 stuchiu wrote:On September 05 2014 11:18 Circumstance wrote:On September 05 2014 11:11 Die4Ever wrote:On September 05 2014 11:06 Circumstance wrote:
It's better for Starcraft overall if a single country doesn't dominate the scene entirely. There are two schools of thought when it comes to how foreigners can reach the skill levels necessary so that this ceases to be the case. One is the way that was done these past 2 years - force them to play each other, and eventually, they'll have to either learn or disappear. The other school of thought is this new one - give them something to compete for themselves, and a foreign competitive circuit can develop to the point where they can actually dedicate themselves to full-time paying and a dedicated training regiment.
Which one is right? What makes things work better for Starcraft? If I knew the answer to that, I'd be looking at a bus schedule to Irvine right now to tell Blizzard myself. They tried one, they're going to try the other. Sadly, any transition to support the foreigners will inevitably come at the expense of the Koreans, in the short term at minimum. That's the reality of it. except they tried that with WCS in 2012 One-off tournaments aren't a circuit. You don't sustain yourself on a single brief event. And WCS 2012 wasn't an effort to create a sustained scene, which we recognize is what's needed right now. Besides which, it's not as if ESL and Dreamhack will just stop letting Koreans in. While it's nowhere near the same, there will still be consistent Korean-vs-foreign competition. Separating them to raise skill doesn't work though. It didn't work for LoL, it won't work here. Seems to work decently in Dota. Half of the TI champs have been Chinese, the other half Europeans, and EG made Top 3 this year. Really, team games aren't a good analogy. Practicing an individual game is so different, and when you get down to it, it's about getting top-level practice environments across the globe.
Not to mention that the large scale success of Dota and LoL correlates to the much larger player base of the game compared to Starcraft 2.
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EPT
