Personally I think that for mine and thor they tweaking the wrong thing. Mine is only going to cause terran to be even stronger in mid game, and the thor change is essentially nothing, or it might be even worse because thors will now start shooting overlords if not taken care of. Didn't blizzard hear complaints about terrans having weaker late game army compared to other races?
Terran isn't strong TvZ midgame. At least they cannot reliably clear up creep/pressure expansions. As long as they reduce bonus damage vs shield with a mine buff, this should be fine.
Then mines wont be used in TvP anymore and the matchup will be back at its most broken state again O.o
With this buff (may be make it an upgrade), they should try to change widow mine into a 50/50 unit. This way, mines will be less accessible in early to mid game (where terran is already very strong) but more accessible at late game (where a buffed widow mine will help).
Personally I think that for mine and thor they tweaking the wrong thing. Mine is only going to cause terran to be even stronger in mid game, and the thor change is essentially nothing, or it might be even worse because thors will now start shooting overlords if not taken care of. Didn't blizzard hear complaints about terrans having weaker late game army compared to other races?
Terran isn't strong TvZ midgame. At least they cannot reliably clear up creep/pressure expansions. As long as they reduce bonus damage vs shield with a mine buff, this should be fine.
Then mines wont be used in TvP anymore and the matchup will be back at its most broken state again O.o
Did you completely miss the patch notes here? Widow Mines AOE is going to be buffed. Thus, if Widow Mine bonus vs shield is maintained it's gonna make TvP Widow Mines retarded. Thus, in order to maintain it's strenght, it needs to be reduced.
Further, Widow Mines doesn't really matter that much for TvP balance. It's not used vs Robo-openings. All it does is to prevent the existinence of twilight-openings for protoss. So since it's bad vs robo openings it's almost never used anyway atm.
And at last, TvP is imbalanced anyway, so the "again" statement doesn't make sense either.
On July 09 2014 20:42 AiLillekanin wrote: Zergs just pull your overlords against mech terrans WHO uses Thors. You will fuck up the Ai. GJ blizzard.
On July 09 2014 17:35 19Meavis93 wrote: how many times do I need to explain that units don't attack other units that are not considered harmfull to them when units that are harmfull are nearby, if a wave of roaches/overlords moves to a thor the thor will prioritize firing at roaches as they can attack him while overlords can not, just like voidrays will always prioritize shooting at marines over banshees or vikings over marauders.
Huuu the widow mine radius increase seems really big to me? I mean won't they be even more powerful overall than before they made the aoe damage decrease with the radius? I'm terran so I would be selfishly happy with it, but I'm afraid this might be broken again. The thor AA thing is good, because it's way too hard to focus them on mutas while microing to be honest. Even the top top player can't do it consistently.
Personally I think that for mine and thor they tweaking the wrong thing. Mine is only going to cause terran to be even stronger in mid game, and the thor change is essentially nothing, or it might be even worse because thors will now start shooting overlords if not taken care of. Didn't blizzard hear complaints about terrans having weaker late game army compared to other races?
Terran isn't strong TvZ midgame. At least they cannot reliably clear up creep/pressure expansions. As long as they reduce bonus damage vs shield with a mine buff, this should be fine.
Then mines wont be used in TvP anymore and the matchup will be back at its most broken state again O.o
No. TvP is not at its most broken right now. It's not even close to its most broken state right now. Winrates for all match-ups have hovered between 45-55% for a long time. That's actually not that bad when it comes to balancing a game as complex as SC2. According to Aligulac, TvP was at its most broken just after HotS came out and Protoss only had a 42% winrate.
TvP in June in Korea (Shoutcraft + GSL + Proleague): 17-31 = 35.4% winrate TvP in Code A qualifiers: 20-33 = 37.7% winrate TvP in IEM qualifier this morning: 10-17 = 37% winrate
Looks like a "quick" fix to me, and buffing what is the most annoying unit in the game will just force more people away from it too other games if you ask me.
Will these changes plus smaller maps help Terran, yes they will most definitely, but the price will be a further decline in the games viewership and player base.
Its clear Blizzard dont want to spend too much time on this game and fix the core issues
Personally I think that for mine and thor they tweaking the wrong thing. Mine is only going to cause terran to be even stronger in mid game, and the thor change is essentially nothing, or it might be even worse because thors will now start shooting overlords if not taken care of. Didn't blizzard hear complaints about terrans having weaker late game army compared to other races?
Terran isn't strong TvZ midgame. At least they cannot reliably clear up creep/pressure expansions. As long as they reduce bonus damage vs shield with a mine buff, this should be fine.
Then mines wont be used in TvP anymore and the matchup will be back at its most broken state again O.o
No. TvP is not at its most broken right now. It's not even close to its most broken state right now. Winrates for all match-ups have hovered between 45-55% for a long time. That's actually not that bad when it comes to balancing a game as complex as SC2. According to Aligulac, TvP was at its most broken just after HotS came out and Protoss only had a 42% winrate.
TvP in June in Korea (Shoutcraft + GSL + Proleague): 17-31 = 35.4% winrate TvP in Code A qualifiers: 20-33 = 37.7% winrate TvP in IEM qualifier this morning: 10-17 = 37% winrate
You don't see a trend here?
Quite troubling if we hope to continue to call SC2 the most competitive esports. Lets hope that the proposed changes are thoroughly tested and eventually implemented in a manner that will resolve the apparent imbalance - whatever/whenever those changes might be.
I really fear that this widow mines buff brings back the op mine taking out 20 zerglings (500 minerals) in one shot.
Otherwise, I think the thor's change ought to be tried since bringing a few zergling with the mutalisks was enough to suffer no damage.
I fear the time warp nerf is out of purpose since it is definitly not the most annoying problem with protoss. It would probably be much more effective to work on the oracle and the warp prism.
On July 09 2014 21:19 Topdoller wrote: Looks like a "quick" fix to me, and buffing what is the most annoying unit in the game will just force more people away from it too other games if you ask me.
Will these changes plus smaller maps help Terran, yes they will most definitely, but the price will be a further decline in the games viewership and player base.
Its clear Blizzard dont want to spend too much time on this game and fix the core issues
There are a few reasons why I feel that buffing widow mines might be the right move. I am far from higher league play, but it just seems reasonable for the following reasons:
- With a single buff, it may also address TvZ to a very significant degree at almost all stages of the game;
- It arguably has a much greater impact on the early to mid-game (oracle timings, blink play) in TvP;
- It could also help Mech, which is also needed. It could give it safer and more economical openers, just like bio. Other changes such as engineering bay/stim upgrades might not have offered this;
- Since widow mines are not all that utilized in TvT, it does not destroy the good play that we now see after Hellbat changes and Cloaked Banshee buff;
- There is a secondary perhaps difficult to grasp aspect of the new expanded half/quarter damage area (which is not all that far from +100% area coverage). Protoss and Zerg rely quite a bit on closing melee range. That expanded but reduced damage might end up reducing melee dps-time in an engagement by much more than 50%. Essentially, there is probably a scaling on the new expanded damage area that might not be unlike the "critial mass" effect that we see from siege tanks - for example where units simply do not get the opportunity to get in firing range of the Terran army at all and end up doing nil damage in certain cases. Imagine many more half-health banelings melting to stimed bio before they are even able to connect at all.
- It seems to offer a "single solution" to a few Protoss "coin-flip" cheeses that were not spoted. Maybe you still need to hang on to a scan or two from your orbitals in case of DT's, but oracles and blink should both end up to be much weaker strategies than currently; and
- It doesn't have a "direct" or tremendous impact on end-game tactics/engagements in TvP. It just sets up Terran to be able to compete from an economical standpoint and not let the Protoss get away with "excessively greedy play" with Terrans that turtle to be safe while still dying to losing out on the "coin-flip" in many cases. Basically, it might change the meta to allow for a fairer mid/late game, at least for TvP.
Just my way of seeing it at this point. We shall see. On another note - by the time 10 seconds of Time Warp have expired, either it was already quite devastating to the Terran, or was not going to make a difference. 15 seconds still seems like too much.
Personally I think that for mine and thor they tweaking the wrong thing. Mine is only going to cause terran to be even stronger in mid game, and the thor change is essentially nothing, or it might be even worse because thors will now start shooting overlords if not taken care of. Didn't blizzard hear complaints about terrans having weaker late game army compared to other races?
Terran isn't strong TvZ midgame. At least they cannot reliably clear up creep/pressure expansions. As long as they reduce bonus damage vs shield with a mine buff, this should be fine.
Then mines wont be used in TvP anymore and the matchup will be back at its most broken state again O.o
No. TvP is not at its most broken right now. It's not even close to its most broken state right now. Winrates for all match-ups have hovered between 45-55% for a long time. That's actually not that bad when it comes to balancing a game as complex as SC2. According to Aligulac, TvP was at its most broken just after HotS came out and Protoss only had a 42% winrate.
TvP in June in Korea (Shoutcraft + GSL + Proleague): 17-31 = 35.4% winrate TvP in Code A qualifiers: 20-33 = 37.7% winrate TvP in IEM qualifier this morning: 10-17 = 37% winrate
You don't see a trend here?
Yes. You whine a lot. Strong trend.
I'll continue choosing not to cherry pick data, thanks
That's actually all the statistic from korea for the last month, I don't see any cherry picking. Just you being owned quite hard tbh.
Personally I think that for mine and thor they tweaking the wrong thing. Mine is only going to cause terran to be even stronger in mid game, and the thor change is essentially nothing, or it might be even worse because thors will now start shooting overlords if not taken care of. Didn't blizzard hear complaints about terrans having weaker late game army compared to other races?
Terran isn't strong TvZ midgame. At least they cannot reliably clear up creep/pressure expansions. As long as they reduce bonus damage vs shield with a mine buff, this should be fine.
Then mines wont be used in TvP anymore and the matchup will be back at its most broken state again O.o
No. TvP is not at its most broken right now. It's not even close to its most broken state right now. Winrates for all match-ups have hovered between 45-55% for a long time. That's actually not that bad when it comes to balancing a game as complex as SC2. According to Aligulac, TvP was at its most broken just after HotS came out and Protoss only had a 42% winrate.
TvP in June in Korea (Shoutcraft + GSL + Proleague): 17-31 = 35.4% winrate TvP in Code A qualifiers: 20-33 = 37.7% winrate TvP in IEM qualifier this morning: 10-17 = 37% winrate
You don't see a trend here?
Yes. You whine a lot. Strong trend.
I'll continue choosing not to cherry pick data, thanks
Someone says the game is Terran favoured in TvP.
TheDwf points out the statistic for the highest level of Starcraft play, showing Terran is very weak.
You say he whines alot for pointing out truth and not just a persons "feeling" that the match up is Terran favoured?
I dont even... O.o
Its like running out of arguments and just deciding to bitch slap the other person and tell him "you are annoying" when you have no arguments left what so ever. That kid is you.
Personally I think that for mine and thor they tweaking the wrong thing. Mine is only going to cause terran to be even stronger in mid game, and the thor change is essentially nothing, or it might be even worse because thors will now start shooting overlords if not taken care of. Didn't blizzard hear complaints about terrans having weaker late game army compared to other races?
Terran isn't strong TvZ midgame. At least they cannot reliably clear up creep/pressure expansions. As long as they reduce bonus damage vs shield with a mine buff, this should be fine.
Then mines wont be used in TvP anymore and the matchup will be back at its most broken state again O.o
No. TvP is not at its most broken right now. It's not even close to its most broken state right now. Winrates for all match-ups have hovered between 45-55% for a long time. That's actually not that bad when it comes to balancing a game as complex as SC2. According to Aligulac, TvP was at its most broken just after HotS came out and Protoss only had a 42% winrate.
TvP in June in Korea (Shoutcraft + GSL + Proleague): 17-31 = 35.4% winrate TvP in Code A qualifiers: 20-33 = 37.7% winrate TvP in IEM qualifier this morning: 10-17 = 37% winrate
You don't see a trend here?
Yes. You whine a lot. Strong trend.
I'll continue choosing not to cherry pick data, thanks
I'm sure choosing to assess the current state of the game with strong tools like Seacraft Weekly or GO4SC2 yields much better results indeed for your goal.
EPT
