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shitty approach.. Just buff other stuff than reinforcing same boring strats.
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On July 09 2014 22:21 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 22:03 Faust852 wrote:On July 09 2014 21:58 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 21:08 TheDwf wrote:On July 09 2014 20:49 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 18:40 Glorfindel! wrote:On July 09 2014 18:28 Hider wrote:
Personally I think that for mine and thor they tweaking the wrong thing. Mine is only going to cause terran to be even stronger in mid game, and the thor change is essentially nothing, or it might be even worse because thors will now start shooting overlords if not taken care of. Didn't blizzard hear complaints about terrans having weaker late game army compared to other races?
Terran isn't strong TvZ midgame. At least they cannot reliably clear up creep/pressure expansions. As long as they reduce bonus damage vs shield with a mine buff, this should be fine. Then mines wont be used in TvP anymore and the matchup will be back at its most broken state again O.o No. TvP is not at its most broken right now. It's not even close to its most broken state right now. Winrates for all match-ups have hovered between 45-55% for a long time. That's actually not that bad when it comes to balancing a game as complex as SC2. According to Aligulac, TvP was at its most broken just after HotS came out and Protoss only had a 42% winrate. TvP in June in Korea (Shoutcraft + GSL + Proleague): 17-31 = 35.4% winrate TvP in Code A qualifiers: 20-33 = 37.7% winrate TvP in IEM qualifier this morning: 10-17 = 37% winrate You don't see a trend here? Yes. You whine a lot. Strong trend. I'll continue choosing not to cherry pick data, thanks  That's actually all the statistic from korea for the last month, I don't see any cherry picking. Just you being owned quite hard tbh. Choosing to only use Korean data is by definition cherry picking. Very good Korean players play in tournaments outside of Korea as well as in Korean tournaments. Ignoring those stats is silly. Since Aligulac includes all tournament games, I'll stick to using Aligulac. Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 22:04 Glorfindel! wrote:On July 09 2014 21:58 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 21:08 TheDwf wrote:On July 09 2014 20:49 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 18:40 Glorfindel! wrote:On July 09 2014 18:28 Hider wrote:
Personally I think that for mine and thor they tweaking the wrong thing. Mine is only going to cause terran to be even stronger in mid game, and the thor change is essentially nothing, or it might be even worse because thors will now start shooting overlords if not taken care of. Didn't blizzard hear complaints about terrans having weaker late game army compared to other races?
Terran isn't strong TvZ midgame. At least they cannot reliably clear up creep/pressure expansions. As long as they reduce bonus damage vs shield with a mine buff, this should be fine. Then mines wont be used in TvP anymore and the matchup will be back at its most broken state again O.o No. TvP is not at its most broken right now. It's not even close to its most broken state right now. Winrates for all match-ups have hovered between 45-55% for a long time. That's actually not that bad when it comes to balancing a game as complex as SC2. According to Aligulac, TvP was at its most broken just after HotS came out and Protoss only had a 42% winrate. TvP in June in Korea (Shoutcraft + GSL + Proleague): 17-31 = 35.4% winrate TvP in Code A qualifiers: 20-33 = 37.7% winrate TvP in IEM qualifier this morning: 10-17 = 37% winrate You don't see a trend here? Yes. You whine a lot. Strong trend. I'll continue choosing not to cherry pick data, thanks Someone says the game is Terran favoured in TvP. TheDwf points out the statistic for the highest level of Starcraft play, showing Terran is very weak. You say he whines alot for pointing out truth and not just a persons "feeling" that the match up is Terran favoured? I dont even... O.o Its like running out of arguments and just deciding to bitch slap the other person and tell him "you are annoying" when you have no arguments left what so ever. That kid is you. I didn't say Terran was favoured, I said that Aligulac seems to show that. I then explained why that's probably not accurate. I'm perfectly aware that there is a problem, I just think people blow it up too large. On "highest level of Starcraft play", I'll repeat what I just typed: Choosing to only use Korean data is by definition cherry picking. Very good Korean players play in tournaments outside of Korea as well as in Korean tournaments. Ignoring those stats is silly. Since Aligulac includes all tournament games, I'll stick to using Aligulac. Frankly, this is exactly why I didn't bother posting in TheDwf's whine-article. The Terran circle-jerk is strong. Might as well go and debate balance with Avilo, the affect is basically same =/
Very good korean play outside of korea, that is true. But they not always have the best oponents outside of korea.
That is a fact, Polt 2:0'ing puCk at MLG Anaheim is not showing much about balance of the game.
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On July 09 2014 22:21 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 22:03 Faust852 wrote:On July 09 2014 21:58 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 21:08 TheDwf wrote:On July 09 2014 20:49 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 18:40 Glorfindel! wrote:On July 09 2014 18:28 Hider wrote:
Personally I think that for mine and thor they tweaking the wrong thing. Mine is only going to cause terran to be even stronger in mid game, and the thor change is essentially nothing, or it might be even worse because thors will now start shooting overlords if not taken care of. Didn't blizzard hear complaints about terrans having weaker late game army compared to other races?
Terran isn't strong TvZ midgame. At least they cannot reliably clear up creep/pressure expansions. As long as they reduce bonus damage vs shield with a mine buff, this should be fine. Then mines wont be used in TvP anymore and the matchup will be back at its most broken state again O.o No. TvP is not at its most broken right now. It's not even close to its most broken state right now. Winrates for all match-ups have hovered between 45-55% for a long time. That's actually not that bad when it comes to balancing a game as complex as SC2. According to Aligulac, TvP was at its most broken just after HotS came out and Protoss only had a 42% winrate. TvP in June in Korea (Shoutcraft + GSL + Proleague): 17-31 = 35.4% winrate TvP in Code A qualifiers: 20-33 = 37.7% winrate TvP in IEM qualifier this morning: 10-17 = 37% winrate You don't see a trend here? Yes. You whine a lot. Strong trend. I'll continue choosing not to cherry pick data, thanks That's actually all the statistic from korea for the last month, I don't see any cherry picking. Just you being owned quite hard tbh. Choosing to only use Korean data is by definition cherry picking. Very good Korean players play in tournaments outside of Korea as well as in Korean tournaments. Ignoring those stats is silly. Since Aligulac includes all tournament games, I'll stick to using Aligulac. Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 22:04 Glorfindel! wrote:On July 09 2014 21:58 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 21:08 TheDwf wrote:On July 09 2014 20:49 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 18:40 Glorfindel! wrote:On July 09 2014 18:28 Hider wrote:
Personally I think that for mine and thor they tweaking the wrong thing. Mine is only going to cause terran to be even stronger in mid game, and the thor change is essentially nothing, or it might be even worse because thors will now start shooting overlords if not taken care of. Didn't blizzard hear complaints about terrans having weaker late game army compared to other races?
Terran isn't strong TvZ midgame. At least they cannot reliably clear up creep/pressure expansions. As long as they reduce bonus damage vs shield with a mine buff, this should be fine. Then mines wont be used in TvP anymore and the matchup will be back at its most broken state again O.o No. TvP is not at its most broken right now. It's not even close to its most broken state right now. Winrates for all match-ups have hovered between 45-55% for a long time. That's actually not that bad when it comes to balancing a game as complex as SC2. According to Aligulac, TvP was at its most broken just after HotS came out and Protoss only had a 42% winrate. TvP in June in Korea (Shoutcraft + GSL + Proleague): 17-31 = 35.4% winrate TvP in Code A qualifiers: 20-33 = 37.7% winrate TvP in IEM qualifier this morning: 10-17 = 37% winrate You don't see a trend here? Yes. You whine a lot. Strong trend. I'll continue choosing not to cherry pick data, thanks Someone says the game is Terran favoured in TvP. TheDwf points out the statistic for the highest level of Starcraft play, showing Terran is very weak. You say he whines alot for pointing out truth and not just a persons "feeling" that the match up is Terran favoured? I dont even... O.o Its like running out of arguments and just deciding to bitch slap the other person and tell him "you are annoying" when you have no arguments left what so ever. That kid is you. I didn't say Terran was favoured, I said that Aligulac seems to show that and I then explained why that's probably not accurate. I'm perfectly aware that there is a problem with Protoss right now, I just think people blow it up to be larger than it is. On "highest level of Starcraft play", I'll repeat what I just typed: Choosing to only use Korean data is by definition cherry picking. Very good Korean players play in tournaments outside of Korea as well as in Korean tournaments. Ignoring those stats is silly. Since Aligulac includes all tournament games, I'll stick to using Aligulac. Frankly, this is exactly why I didn't bother posting in TheDwf's whine-article. The Terran circle-jerk is just too strong. It already ruins most of my ladder experience (can't beat a Terran without getting whined at for days, even though PvT is my weakest match-up) and it's slowly ruining tournament watching as well. It already ruined the LR threads. I might as well go and debate balance with Avilo, the affect is basically same: 
You are funny, first you claim DwF is whining hard, and now you are backing by saying "You are cherry picking, blabla, you are using only statistic from the highest level of play without interference like go4sc2 that totallly destroy the meaning of w/r ratio since topkr are farming lowEU players"
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You talking balance oddly reminds me of blizzards magical balance formula
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On July 09 2014 20:42 AiLillekanin wrote:
Zergs just pull your overlords against mech terrans WHO uses Thors. You will fuck up the Ai. GJ blizzard.
AiLillekanin just pull of your words out of this threads. You will fuck up the posting bad quality. Good job man !
(also units prioritize attacking unit so ovie will be the last thing to get attacked)
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On July 09 2014 22:43 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 22:34 Faust852 wrote:On July 09 2014 22:21 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 22:03 Faust852 wrote:On July 09 2014 21:58 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 21:08 TheDwf wrote:On July 09 2014 20:49 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 18:40 Glorfindel! wrote:On July 09 2014 18:28 Hider wrote:
Personally I think that for mine and thor they tweaking the wrong thing. Mine is only going to cause terran to be even stronger in mid game, and the thor change is essentially nothing, or it might be even worse because thors will now start shooting overlords if not taken care of. Didn't blizzard hear complaints about terrans having weaker late game army compared to other races?
Terran isn't strong TvZ midgame. At least they cannot reliably clear up creep/pressure expansions. As long as they reduce bonus damage vs shield with a mine buff, this should be fine. Then mines wont be used in TvP anymore and the matchup will be back at its most broken state again O.o No. TvP is not at its most broken right now. It's not even close to its most broken state right now. Winrates for all match-ups have hovered between 45-55% for a long time. That's actually not that bad when it comes to balancing a game as complex as SC2. According to Aligulac, TvP was at its most broken just after HotS came out and Protoss only had a 42% winrate. TvP in June in Korea (Shoutcraft + GSL + Proleague): 17-31 = 35.4% winrate TvP in Code A qualifiers: 20-33 = 37.7% winrate TvP in IEM qualifier this morning: 10-17 = 37% winrate You don't see a trend here? Yes. You whine a lot. Strong trend. I'll continue choosing not to cherry pick data, thanks That's actually all the statistic from korea for the last month, I don't see any cherry picking. Just you being owned quite hard tbh. Choosing to only use Korean data is by definition cherry picking. Very good Korean players play in tournaments outside of Korea as well as in Korean tournaments. Ignoring those stats is silly. Since Aligulac includes all tournament games, I'll stick to using Aligulac. On July 09 2014 22:04 Glorfindel! wrote:On July 09 2014 21:58 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 21:08 TheDwf wrote:On July 09 2014 20:49 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 18:40 Glorfindel! wrote:On July 09 2014 18:28 Hider wrote:
Personally I think that for mine and thor they tweaking the wrong thing. Mine is only going to cause terran to be even stronger in mid game, and the thor change is essentially nothing, or it might be even worse because thors will now start shooting overlords if not taken care of. Didn't blizzard hear complaints about terrans having weaker late game army compared to other races?
Terran isn't strong TvZ midgame. At least they cannot reliably clear up creep/pressure expansions. As long as they reduce bonus damage vs shield with a mine buff, this should be fine. Then mines wont be used in TvP anymore and the matchup will be back at its most broken state again O.o No. TvP is not at its most broken right now. It's not even close to its most broken state right now. Winrates for all match-ups have hovered between 45-55% for a long time. That's actually not that bad when it comes to balancing a game as complex as SC2. According to Aligulac, TvP was at its most broken just after HotS came out and Protoss only had a 42% winrate. TvP in June in Korea (Shoutcraft + GSL + Proleague): 17-31 = 35.4% winrate TvP in Code A qualifiers: 20-33 = 37.7% winrate TvP in IEM qualifier this morning: 10-17 = 37% winrate You don't see a trend here? Yes. You whine a lot. Strong trend. I'll continue choosing not to cherry pick data, thanks Someone says the game is Terran favoured in TvP. TheDwf points out the statistic for the highest level of Starcraft play, showing Terran is very weak. You say he whines alot for pointing out truth and not just a persons "feeling" that the match up is Terran favoured? I dont even... O.o Its like running out of arguments and just deciding to !@#$%^&* slap the other person and tell him "you are annoying" when you have no arguments left what so ever. That kid is you. I didn't say Terran was favoured, I said that Aligulac seems to show that and I then explained why that's probably not accurate. I'm perfectly aware that there is a problem with Protoss right now, I just think people blow it up to be larger than it is. On "highest level of Starcraft play", I'll repeat what I just typed: Choosing to only use Korean data is by definition cherry picking. Very good Korean players play in tournaments outside of Korea as well as in Korean tournaments. Ignoring those stats is silly. Since Aligulac includes all tournament games, I'll stick to using Aligulac. Frankly, this is exactly why I didn't bother posting in TheDwf's whine-article. The Terran circle-jerk is just too strong. It already ruins most of my ladder experience (can't beat a Terran without getting whined at for days, even though PvT is my weakest match-up) and it's slowly ruining tournament watching as well. It already ruined the LR threads. I might as well go and debate balance with Avilo, the affect is basically same: You are funny, first you claim DwF is whining hard, and now you are backing by saying "You are cherry picking, blabla, you are using only statistic from the highest level of play without interference like go4sc2 that totallly destroy the meaning of w/r ratio since topkr are farming lowEU players" "Cherry picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position." The emboldened part is literally what TheDwf is doing by picking and choosing which pro-level tournaments he considers relevant. I don't see how you can argue against the fact that this is happening. If you consider it okay to pick and choose which tournaments you use as evidence then fair enough, we'll have to agree to disagree, but you cannot even slightly deny that it's happening. Seriously:
Except your way of interpreting statistics is nonsense and has been refuted multiple times. Win/rates is a flawed way of looking at the data if your ignoring the distribtion of the races. If you instead take a more comprehensive look at Aliguac data, you clearly get to the conclusion that terran statistically is significantly underpowered.
And using the newest korean-based data is quite relevant here as it gives a better picture of how the races fares at the highest levels. E.g. are the best terrans capable of winning against protosses?
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On July 09 2014 22:25 gTank wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 22:21 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 22:03 Faust852 wrote:On July 09 2014 21:58 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 21:08 TheDwf wrote:On July 09 2014 20:49 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 18:40 Glorfindel! wrote:On July 09 2014 18:28 Hider wrote:
Personally I think that for mine and thor they tweaking the wrong thing. Mine is only going to cause terran to be even stronger in mid game, and the thor change is essentially nothing, or it might be even worse because thors will now start shooting overlords if not taken care of. Didn't blizzard hear complaints about terrans having weaker late game army compared to other races?
Terran isn't strong TvZ midgame. At least they cannot reliably clear up creep/pressure expansions. As long as they reduce bonus damage vs shield with a mine buff, this should be fine. Then mines wont be used in TvP anymore and the matchup will be back at its most broken state again O.o No. TvP is not at its most broken right now. It's not even close to its most broken state right now. Winrates for all match-ups have hovered between 45-55% for a long time. That's actually not that bad when it comes to balancing a game as complex as SC2. According to Aligulac, TvP was at its most broken just after HotS came out and Protoss only had a 42% winrate. TvP in June in Korea (Shoutcraft + GSL + Proleague): 17-31 = 35.4% winrate TvP in Code A qualifiers: 20-33 = 37.7% winrate TvP in IEM qualifier this morning: 10-17 = 37% winrate You don't see a trend here? Yes. You whine a lot. Strong trend. I'll continue choosing not to cherry pick data, thanks That's actually all the statistic from korea for the last month, I don't see any cherry picking. Just you being owned quite hard tbh. Choosing to only use Korean data is by definition cherry picking. Very good Korean players play in tournaments outside of Korea as well as in Korean tournaments. Ignoring those stats is silly. Since Aligulac includes all tournament games, I'll stick to using Aligulac. On July 09 2014 22:04 Glorfindel! wrote:On July 09 2014 21:58 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 21:08 TheDwf wrote:On July 09 2014 20:49 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 18:40 Glorfindel! wrote:On July 09 2014 18:28 Hider wrote:
Personally I think that for mine and thor they tweaking the wrong thing. Mine is only going to cause terran to be even stronger in mid game, and the thor change is essentially nothing, or it might be even worse because thors will now start shooting overlords if not taken care of. Didn't blizzard hear complaints about terrans having weaker late game army compared to other races?
Terran isn't strong TvZ midgame. At least they cannot reliably clear up creep/pressure expansions. As long as they reduce bonus damage vs shield with a mine buff, this should be fine. Then mines wont be used in TvP anymore and the matchup will be back at its most broken state again O.o No. TvP is not at its most broken right now. It's not even close to its most broken state right now. Winrates for all match-ups have hovered between 45-55% for a long time. That's actually not that bad when it comes to balancing a game as complex as SC2. According to Aligulac, TvP was at its most broken just after HotS came out and Protoss only had a 42% winrate. TvP in June in Korea (Shoutcraft + GSL + Proleague): 17-31 = 35.4% winrate TvP in Code A qualifiers: 20-33 = 37.7% winrate TvP in IEM qualifier this morning: 10-17 = 37% winrate You don't see a trend here? Yes. You whine a lot. Strong trend. I'll continue choosing not to cherry pick data, thanks Someone says the game is Terran favoured in TvP. TheDwf points out the statistic for the highest level of Starcraft play, showing Terran is very weak. You say he whines alot for pointing out truth and not just a persons "feeling" that the match up is Terran favoured? I dont even... O.o Its like running out of arguments and just deciding to bitch slap the other person and tell him "you are annoying" when you have no arguments left what so ever. That kid is you. I didn't say Terran was favoured, I said that Aligulac seems to show that. I then explained why that's probably not accurate. I'm perfectly aware that there is a problem, I just think people blow it up too large. On "highest level of Starcraft play", I'll repeat what I just typed: Choosing to only use Korean data is by definition cherry picking. Very good Korean players play in tournaments outside of Korea as well as in Korean tournaments. Ignoring those stats is silly. Since Aligulac includes all tournament games, I'll stick to using Aligulac. Frankly, this is exactly why I didn't bother posting in TheDwf's whine-article. The Terran circle-jerk is strong. Might as well go and debate balance with Avilo, the affect is basically same =/ Very good korean play outside of korea, that is true. But they not always have the best oponents outside of korea. That is a fact, Polt 2:0'ing puCk at MLG Anaheim is not showing much about balance of the game.
If you want to take into account only matches that show something about balance of the game, you have to be more precise than just "Korea". You have to exclude games where superior koreans beat inferior koreans. You have to exclude games where throws happened. You have to exclude games where someone reacted wrongly to something they scouted. You have to exclude games where map specific things happened that influenced the result in a way that can't be ignored.
Since you're not doing any of that...
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On July 09 2014 22:43 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 22:34 Faust852 wrote:On July 09 2014 22:21 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 22:03 Faust852 wrote:On July 09 2014 21:58 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 21:08 TheDwf wrote:On July 09 2014 20:49 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 18:40 Glorfindel! wrote:On July 09 2014 18:28 Hider wrote:
Personally I think that for mine and thor they tweaking the wrong thing. Mine is only going to cause terran to be even stronger in mid game, and the thor change is essentially nothing, or it might be even worse because thors will now start shooting overlords if not taken care of. Didn't blizzard hear complaints about terrans having weaker late game army compared to other races?
Terran isn't strong TvZ midgame. At least they cannot reliably clear up creep/pressure expansions. As long as they reduce bonus damage vs shield with a mine buff, this should be fine. Then mines wont be used in TvP anymore and the matchup will be back at its most broken state again O.o No. TvP is not at its most broken right now. It's not even close to its most broken state right now. Winrates for all match-ups have hovered between 45-55% for a long time. That's actually not that bad when it comes to balancing a game as complex as SC2. According to Aligulac, TvP was at its most broken just after HotS came out and Protoss only had a 42% winrate. TvP in June in Korea (Shoutcraft + GSL + Proleague): 17-31 = 35.4% winrate TvP in Code A qualifiers: 20-33 = 37.7% winrate TvP in IEM qualifier this morning: 10-17 = 37% winrate You don't see a trend here? Yes. You whine a lot. Strong trend. I'll continue choosing not to cherry pick data, thanks That's actually all the statistic from korea for the last month, I don't see any cherry picking. Just you being owned quite hard tbh. Choosing to only use Korean data is by definition cherry picking. Very good Korean players play in tournaments outside of Korea as well as in Korean tournaments. Ignoring those stats is silly. Since Aligulac includes all tournament games, I'll stick to using Aligulac. On July 09 2014 22:04 Glorfindel! wrote:On July 09 2014 21:58 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 21:08 TheDwf wrote:On July 09 2014 20:49 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 18:40 Glorfindel! wrote:On July 09 2014 18:28 Hider wrote:
Personally I think that for mine and thor they tweaking the wrong thing. Mine is only going to cause terran to be even stronger in mid game, and the thor change is essentially nothing, or it might be even worse because thors will now start shooting overlords if not taken care of. Didn't blizzard hear complaints about terrans having weaker late game army compared to other races?
Terran isn't strong TvZ midgame. At least they cannot reliably clear up creep/pressure expansions. As long as they reduce bonus damage vs shield with a mine buff, this should be fine. Then mines wont be used in TvP anymore and the matchup will be back at its most broken state again O.o No. TvP is not at its most broken right now. It's not even close to its most broken state right now. Winrates for all match-ups have hovered between 45-55% for a long time. That's actually not that bad when it comes to balancing a game as complex as SC2. According to Aligulac, TvP was at its most broken just after HotS came out and Protoss only had a 42% winrate. TvP in June in Korea (Shoutcraft + GSL + Proleague): 17-31 = 35.4% winrate TvP in Code A qualifiers: 20-33 = 37.7% winrate TvP in IEM qualifier this morning: 10-17 = 37% winrate You don't see a trend here? Yes. You whine a lot. Strong trend. I'll continue choosing not to cherry pick data, thanks Someone says the game is Terran favoured in TvP. TheDwf points out the statistic for the highest level of Starcraft play, showing Terran is very weak. You say he whines alot for pointing out truth and not just a persons "feeling" that the match up is Terran favoured? I dont even... O.o Its like running out of arguments and just deciding to bitch slap the other person and tell him "you are annoying" when you have no arguments left what so ever. That kid is you. I didn't say Terran was favoured, I said that Aligulac seems to show that and I then explained why that's probably not accurate. I'm perfectly aware that there is a problem with Protoss right now, I just think people blow it up to be larger than it is. On "highest level of Starcraft play", I'll repeat what I just typed: Choosing to only use Korean data is by definition cherry picking. Very good Korean players play in tournaments outside of Korea as well as in Korean tournaments. Ignoring those stats is silly. Since Aligulac includes all tournament games, I'll stick to using Aligulac. Frankly, this is exactly why I didn't bother posting in TheDwf's whine-article. The Terran circle-jerk is just too strong. It already ruins most of my ladder experience (can't beat a Terran without getting whined at for days, even though PvT is my weakest match-up) and it's slowly ruining tournament watching as well. It already ruined the LR threads. I might as well go and debate balance with Avilo, the affect is basically same: You are funny, first you claim DwF is whining hard, and now you are backing by saying "You are cherry picking, blabla, you are using only statistic from the highest level of play without interference like go4sc2 that totallly destroy the meaning of w/r ratio since topkr are farming lowEU players" "Cherry picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position." The emboldened part is literally what TheDwf is doing by picking and choosing which pro-level tournaments he considers relevant. I don't see how you can argue against the fact that this is happening. If you consider that it's okay to pick and choose which tournaments you use as evidence then fair enough, we'll have to agree to disagree, but you cannot even slightly deny that it's happening. Seriously:
Your argument is weak. Korean level of play is much higher than anywhere else and all the data suggests that top-level protosses have a distinct advantage over their terran counterparts. Nobody cares if a bunch of top korean terrans can smash foreigner z and p before getting smashed themselves by random korean protoss X in the semis or finals.
Seriously, you think all these protoss champions are just the cream of the crop right now and thats why they keep winning tournaments? I wonder how much more they practice to reach their godlike levels lol
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Also, the reason why noone wants to argue with you anymore, in a nutshell:
On July 09 2014 22:21 SatedSC2 wrote:
I didn't say Terran was favoured, I said that Aligulac seems to show that and I then explained why that's probably not accurate.
On July 09 2014 22:47 Hider wrote:
Except your way of interpreting statistics is nonsense and has been refuted multiple times. Win/rates is a flawed way of looking at the data if your ignoring the distribtion of the races.
Your way of proving he's wrong is by saying something he's already said, and claiming he denies it.
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Never even thought about the Thor change. That is a smart and elegant solution. I always hated when my Thors would just start railing on some lings instead of firing on the muta clump. It is also one of those "Help out the newbies but leave the pro scene the same" changes which are generally good.
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On July 09 2014 21:08 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 20:49 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 18:40 Glorfindel! wrote:On July 09 2014 18:28 Hider wrote:
Personally I think that for mine and thor they tweaking the wrong thing. Mine is only going to cause terran to be even stronger in mid game, and the thor change is essentially nothing, or it might be even worse because thors will now start shooting overlords if not taken care of. Didn't blizzard hear complaints about terrans having weaker late game army compared to other races?
Terran isn't strong TvZ midgame. At least they cannot reliably clear up creep/pressure expansions. As long as they reduce bonus damage vs shield with a mine buff, this should be fine. Then mines wont be used in TvP anymore and the matchup will be back at its most broken state again O.o No. TvP is not at its most broken right now. It's not even close to its most broken state right now. Winrates for all match-ups have hovered between 45-55% for a long time. That's actually not that bad when it comes to balancing a game as complex as SC2. According to Aligulac, TvP was at its most broken just after HotS came out and Protoss only had a 42% winrate. TvP in June in Korea (Shoutcraft + GSL + Proleague): 17-31 = 35.4% winrate TvP in Code A qualifiers: 20-33 = 37.7% winrate TvP in IEM qualifier this morning: 10-17 = 37% winrate You don't see a trend here?
In addition:
TvZ in June Korea: 28-22 = 56%
TvZ in Code A qualifiers: 30-15 = 66%
TvZ in IEM qualifier: 15-13 = 53%
So after the hellbat change the matchup has changed quite a bit and I have no idea why blizzard addresses this matchup again instead of nerfig protoss overall strength
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On July 09 2014 22:59 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 21:08 TheDwf wrote:On July 09 2014 20:49 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 18:40 Glorfindel! wrote:On July 09 2014 18:28 Hider wrote:
Personally I think that for mine and thor they tweaking the wrong thing. Mine is only going to cause terran to be even stronger in mid game, and the thor change is essentially nothing, or it might be even worse because thors will now start shooting overlords if not taken care of. Didn't blizzard hear complaints about terrans having weaker late game army compared to other races?
Terran isn't strong TvZ midgame. At least they cannot reliably clear up creep/pressure expansions. As long as they reduce bonus damage vs shield with a mine buff, this should be fine. Then mines wont be used in TvP anymore and the matchup will be back at its most broken state again O.o No. TvP is not at its most broken right now. It's not even close to its most broken state right now. Winrates for all match-ups have hovered between 45-55% for a long time. That's actually not that bad when it comes to balancing a game as complex as SC2. According to Aligulac, TvP was at its most broken just after HotS came out and Protoss only had a 42% winrate. TvP in June in Korea (Shoutcraft + GSL + Proleague): 17-31 = 35.4% winrate TvP in Code A qualifiers: 20-33 = 37.7% winrate TvP in IEM qualifier this morning: 10-17 = 37% winrate You don't see a trend here? In addition: TvZ in June Korea: 28-22 = 56% TvZ in Code A qualifiers: 30-15 = 66% TvZ in IEM qualifier: 15-13 = 53% So after the hellbat change the matchup has changed quite a bit and I have no idea why blizzard addresses this matchup again instead of nerfig protoss overall strength
Wait, those stats don't fit well with the narrative, so we're going to have to add a disclaimer that stats aren't a good indication of balance, sorry.
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On July 09 2014 22:43 SatedSC2 wrote:
Perfectly summarizes the feeling that gives us your approach:
Polt 2-0 puCk
Polt 2-0 HuK
Polt 2-0 puCk
Polt 0-6 Trap
50/50 game is balanced. Move along!
For winrates to matter, there needs to be a relatively homogenous sample (i.e. players equal or close in skill). As Nebuchad says, you'd also need to correct it from a few other things, but then people like you would yell "cherry-picking!" At any rate Aligulac does not match this condition, so 50/50 doesn't necessarily mean balance. And you know it yourself because you talked earlier about the phenomenon of Terran players being, on average, matched against worse opponents.
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On July 09 2014 22:59 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 21:08 TheDwf wrote:On July 09 2014 20:49 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 18:40 Glorfindel! wrote:On July 09 2014 18:28 Hider wrote:
Personally I think that for mine and thor they tweaking the wrong thing. Mine is only going to cause terran to be even stronger in mid game, and the thor change is essentially nothing, or it might be even worse because thors will now start shooting overlords if not taken care of. Didn't blizzard hear complaints about terrans having weaker late game army compared to other races?
Terran isn't strong TvZ midgame. At least they cannot reliably clear up creep/pressure expansions. As long as they reduce bonus damage vs shield with a mine buff, this should be fine. Then mines wont be used in TvP anymore and the matchup will be back at its most broken state again O.o No. TvP is not at its most broken right now. It's not even close to its most broken state right now. Winrates for all match-ups have hovered between 45-55% for a long time. That's actually not that bad when it comes to balancing a game as complex as SC2. According to Aligulac, TvP was at its most broken just after HotS came out and Protoss only had a 42% winrate. TvP in June in Korea (Shoutcraft + GSL + Proleague): 17-31 = 35.4% winrate TvP in Code A qualifiers: 20-33 = 37.7% winrate TvP in IEM qualifier this morning: 10-17 = 37% winrate You don't see a trend here? In addition: TvZ in June Korea: 28-22 = 56% TvZ in Code A qualifiers: 30-15 = 66% TvZ in IEM qualifier: 15-13 = 53% So after the hellbat change the matchup has changed quite a bit and I have no idea why blizzard addresses this matchup again instead of nerfig protoss overall strength
Given that less Terrans are being played, I think this doesn't immidiatly mean that everything is fine, yet, I do agree there seems to be a difference in degree of imbalance currently - at least since the hellbat buff.
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On July 09 2014 23:06 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 22:59 Tsubbi wrote:On July 09 2014 21:08 TheDwf wrote:On July 09 2014 20:49 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 18:40 Glorfindel! wrote:On July 09 2014 18:28 Hider wrote:
Personally I think that for mine and thor they tweaking the wrong thing. Mine is only going to cause terran to be even stronger in mid game, and the thor change is essentially nothing, or it might be even worse because thors will now start shooting overlords if not taken care of. Didn't blizzard hear complaints about terrans having weaker late game army compared to other races?
Terran isn't strong TvZ midgame. At least they cannot reliably clear up creep/pressure expansions. As long as they reduce bonus damage vs shield with a mine buff, this should be fine. Then mines wont be used in TvP anymore and the matchup will be back at its most broken state again O.o No. TvP is not at its most broken right now. It's not even close to its most broken state right now. Winrates for all match-ups have hovered between 45-55% for a long time. That's actually not that bad when it comes to balancing a game as complex as SC2. According to Aligulac, TvP was at its most broken just after HotS came out and Protoss only had a 42% winrate. TvP in June in Korea (Shoutcraft + GSL + Proleague): 17-31 = 35.4% winrate TvP in Code A qualifiers: 20-33 = 37.7% winrate TvP in IEM qualifier this morning: 10-17 = 37% winrate You don't see a trend here? In addition: TvZ in June Korea: 28-22 = 56% TvZ in Code A qualifiers: 30-15 = 66% TvZ in IEM qualifier: 15-13 = 53% So after the hellbat change the matchup has changed quite a bit and I have no idea why blizzard addresses this matchup again instead of nerfig protoss overall strength Wait, those stats don't fit well with the narrative, so we're going to have to add a disclaimer that stats aren't a good indication of balance, sorry.
Ok, so terrans finally break 50% tvz (barely) following a buff patch. Give zergs time to adjust and the rates will probably even out and maybe even go back into the zerg's favor because zerg lategame is still more potent than terran. The difference between these tvz stats and tvp stats is that tvp has been out of whack through numerous changes over a long period of time. Also, lets not forget to mention the numerous high level korean terrans who can't even maintain code s status and are forced to play in these lower-level korean tournaments like the code a qualifiers. Are people really trying to argue that terran is fine at the moment? How could anyone believe that? Do they even watch pro games?
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On July 09 2014 22:56 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 22:47 Hider wrote:On July 09 2014 22:43 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 22:34 Faust852 wrote:On July 09 2014 22:21 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 22:03 Faust852 wrote:On July 09 2014 21:58 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 21:08 TheDwf wrote:On July 09 2014 20:49 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 18:40 Glorfindel! wrote:
[quote]
Then mines wont be used in TvP anymore and the matchup will be back at its most broken state again O.o No. TvP is not at its most broken right now. It's not even close to its most broken state right now. Winrates for all match-ups have hovered between 45-55% for a long time. That's actually not that bad when it comes to balancing a game as complex as SC2. According to Aligulac, TvP was at its most broken just after HotS came out and Protoss only had a 42% winrate. TvP in June in Korea (Shoutcraft + GSL + Proleague): 17-31 = 35.4% winrate TvP in Code A qualifiers: 20-33 = 37.7% winrate TvP in IEM qualifier this morning: 10-17 = 37% winrate You don't see a trend here? Yes. You whine a lot. Strong trend. I'll continue choosing not to cherry pick data, thanks That's actually all the statistic from korea for the last month, I don't see any cherry picking. Just you being owned quite hard tbh. Choosing to only use Korean data is by definition cherry picking. Very good Korean players play in tournaments outside of Korea as well as in Korean tournaments. Ignoring those stats is silly. Since Aligulac includes all tournament games, I'll stick to using Aligulac. On July 09 2014 22:04 Glorfindel! wrote:On July 09 2014 21:58 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 21:08 TheDwf wrote:On July 09 2014 20:49 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 18:40 Glorfindel! wrote:
[quote]
Then mines wont be used in TvP anymore and the matchup will be back at its most broken state again O.o No. TvP is not at its most broken right now. It's not even close to its most broken state right now. Winrates for all match-ups have hovered between 45-55% for a long time. That's actually not that bad when it comes to balancing a game as complex as SC2. According to Aligulac, TvP was at its most broken just after HotS came out and Protoss only had a 42% winrate. TvP in June in Korea (Shoutcraft + GSL + Proleague): 17-31 = 35.4% winrate TvP in Code A qualifiers: 20-33 = 37.7% winrate TvP in IEM qualifier this morning: 10-17 = 37% winrate You don't see a trend here? Yes. You whine a lot. Strong trend. I'll continue choosing not to cherry pick data, thanks Someone says the game is Terran favoured in TvP. TheDwf points out the statistic for the highest level of Starcraft play, showing Terran is very weak. You say he whines alot for pointing out truth and not just a persons "feeling" that the match up is Terran favoured? I dont even... O.o Its like running out of arguments and just deciding to !@#$%^&* slap the other person and tell him "you are annoying" when you have no arguments left what so ever. That kid is you. I didn't say Terran was favoured, I said that Aligulac seems to show that and I then explained why that's probably not accurate. I'm perfectly aware that there is a problem with Protoss right now, I just think people blow it up to be larger than it is. On "highest level of Starcraft play", I'll repeat what I just typed: Choosing to only use Korean data is by definition cherry picking. Very good Korean players play in tournaments outside of Korea as well as in Korean tournaments. Ignoring those stats is silly. Since Aligulac includes all tournament games, I'll stick to using Aligulac. Frankly, this is exactly why I didn't bother posting in TheDwf's whine-article. The Terran circle-jerk is just too strong. It already ruins most of my ladder experience (can't beat a Terran without getting whined at for days, even though PvT is my weakest match-up) and it's slowly ruining tournament watching as well. It already ruined the LR threads. I might as well go and debate balance with Avilo, the affect is basically same: You are funny, first you claim DwF is whining hard, and now you are backing by saying "You are cherry picking, blabla, you are using only statistic from the highest level of play without interference like go4sc2 that totallly destroy the meaning of w/r ratio since topkr are farming lowEU players" "Cherry picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position." The emboldened part is literally what TheDwf is doing by picking and choosing which pro-level tournaments he considers relevant. I don't see how you can argue against the fact that this is happening. If you consider it okay to pick and choose which tournaments you use as evidence then fair enough, we'll have to agree to disagree, but you cannot even slightly deny that it's happening. Seriously: Except your way of interpreting statistics is nonsense and has been refuted multiple times. Win/rates is a flawed way of looking at the data if your ignoring the distribtion of the races. If you instead take a more comprehensive look at Aliguac data, you clearly get to the conclusion that terran statistically is significantly underpowered. And using the newest korean-based data is quite relevant here as it gives a better picture of how the races fares at the highest levels. E.g. are the best terrans capable of winning against protosses? "Win/rates [sic] is [sic] a flawed way of looking at the data if your [sic] ignoring the distribtion [sic] of the races." "Using the newest korean-based data... gives a better picture of how the races fare" Either win rates are flawed or using the newest Korean win rates gives a better picture. You can't have both. Basically, your argument isn't even internally consistent, so why should I listen to anything you have to say? EDIT: Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 22:51 johnbongham wrote:On July 09 2014 22:43 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 22:34 Faust852 wrote:On July 09 2014 22:21 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 22:03 Faust852 wrote:On July 09 2014 21:58 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 21:08 TheDwf wrote:On July 09 2014 20:49 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 18:40 Glorfindel! wrote:
[quote]
Then mines wont be used in TvP anymore and the matchup will be back at its most broken state again O.o No. TvP is not at its most broken right now. It's not even close to its most broken state right now. Winrates for all match-ups have hovered between 45-55% for a long time. That's actually not that bad when it comes to balancing a game as complex as SC2. According to Aligulac, TvP was at its most broken just after HotS came out and Protoss only had a 42% winrate. TvP in June in Korea (Shoutcraft + GSL + Proleague): 17-31 = 35.4% winrate TvP in Code A qualifiers: 20-33 = 37.7% winrate TvP in IEM qualifier this morning: 10-17 = 37% winrate You don't see a trend here? Yes. You whine a lot. Strong trend. I'll continue choosing not to cherry pick data, thanks That's actually all the statistic from korea for the last month, I don't see any cherry picking. Just you being owned quite hard tbh. Choosing to only use Korean data is by definition cherry picking. Very good Korean players play in tournaments outside of Korea as well as in Korean tournaments. Ignoring those stats is silly. Since Aligulac includes all tournament games, I'll stick to using Aligulac. On July 09 2014 22:04 Glorfindel! wrote:On July 09 2014 21:58 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 21:08 TheDwf wrote:On July 09 2014 20:49 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 18:40 Glorfindel! wrote:
[quote]
Then mines wont be used in TvP anymore and the matchup will be back at its most broken state again O.o No. TvP is not at its most broken right now. It's not even close to its most broken state right now. Winrates for all match-ups have hovered between 45-55% for a long time. That's actually not that bad when it comes to balancing a game as complex as SC2. According to Aligulac, TvP was at its most broken just after HotS came out and Protoss only had a 42% winrate. TvP in June in Korea (Shoutcraft + GSL + Proleague): 17-31 = 35.4% winrate TvP in Code A qualifiers: 20-33 = 37.7% winrate TvP in IEM qualifier this morning: 10-17 = 37% winrate You don't see a trend here? Yes. You whine a lot. Strong trend. I'll continue choosing not to cherry pick data, thanks Someone says the game is Terran favoured in TvP. TheDwf points out the statistic for the highest level of Starcraft play, showing Terran is very weak. You say he whines alot for pointing out truth and not just a persons "feeling" that the match up is Terran favoured? I dont even... O.o Its like running out of arguments and just deciding to bitch slap the other person and tell him "you are annoying" when you have no arguments left what so ever. That kid is you. I didn't say Terran was favoured, I said that Aligulac seems to show that and I then explained why that's probably not accurate. I'm perfectly aware that there is a problem with Protoss right now, I just think people blow it up to be larger than it is. On "highest level of Starcraft play", I'll repeat what I just typed: Choosing to only use Korean data is by definition cherry picking. Very good Korean players play in tournaments outside of Korea as well as in Korean tournaments. Ignoring those stats is silly. Since Aligulac includes all tournament games, I'll stick to using Aligulac. Frankly, this is exactly why I didn't bother posting in TheDwf's whine-article. The Terran circle-jerk is just too strong. It already ruins most of my ladder experience (can't beat a Terran without getting whined at for days, even though PvT is my weakest match-up) and it's slowly ruining tournament watching as well. It already ruined the LR threads. I might as well go and debate balance with Avilo, the affect is basically same: You are funny, first you claim DwF is whining hard, and now you are backing by saying "You are cherry picking, blabla, you are using only statistic from the highest level of play without interference like go4sc2 that totallly destroy the meaning of w/r ratio since topkr are farming lowEU players" "Cherry picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position." The emboldened part is literally what TheDwf is doing by picking and choosing which pro-level tournaments he considers relevant. I don't see how you can argue against the fact that this is happening. If you consider that it's okay to pick and choose which tournaments you use as evidence then fair enough, we'll have to agree to disagree, but you cannot even slightly deny that it's happening. Seriously: Your argument is weak. Korean level of play is much higher than anywhere else and all the data suggests that top-level protosses have a distinct advantage over their terran counterparts. Nobody cares if a bunch of top korean terrans can smash foreigner z and p before getting smashed themselves by random korean protoss X in the semis or finals. Except the same argument applies to the Korean data. Does sOs beating some mid-tier Terran prove anything? Does Maru beating some mid-tier Zerg prove anything? Departure went 0-7 in Proleague, so should his stats count? Why is it okay to have skill differentials within your Korean data but not in the non-Korean data? Your argument is fucking terrible. Cherry picking is rarely a good idea unless you have a very stringent set of conditions to do it with and "tournaments played in the nation of South Korea" isn't particularly stringent re: the aim you're trying to achieve by excluding non-KR data. I'm done with this argument... 
No you are wrong! Stop trying to logically argue otherwise! Protoss is overpowered! Stop defending protoss! *Insert a veiled insult that may or may not question your sexuality and make reference to a possible negative aspect of your mothers'*
The Dwf is right! (I hope he notices me. All I want is his approval.)
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On July 09 2014 22:59 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 21:08 TheDwf wrote:On July 09 2014 20:49 SatedSC2 wrote:On July 09 2014 18:40 Glorfindel! wrote:On July 09 2014 18:28 Hider wrote:
Personally I think that for mine and thor they tweaking the wrong thing. Mine is only going to cause terran to be even stronger in mid game, and the thor change is essentially nothing, or it might be even worse because thors will now start shooting overlords if not taken care of. Didn't blizzard hear complaints about terrans having weaker late game army compared to other races?
Terran isn't strong TvZ midgame. At least they cannot reliably clear up creep/pressure expansions. As long as they reduce bonus damage vs shield with a mine buff, this should be fine. Then mines wont be used in TvP anymore and the matchup will be back at its most broken state again O.o No. TvP is not at its most broken right now. It's not even close to its most broken state right now. Winrates for all match-ups have hovered between 45-55% for a long time. That's actually not that bad when it comes to balancing a game as complex as SC2. According to Aligulac, TvP was at its most broken just after HotS came out and Protoss only had a 42% winrate. TvP in June in Korea (Shoutcraft + GSL + Proleague): 17-31 = 35.4% winrate TvP in Code A qualifiers: 20-33 = 37.7% winrate TvP in IEM qualifier this morning: 10-17 = 37% winrate You don't see a trend here? In addition: TvZ in June Korea: 28-22 = 56% TvZ in Code A qualifiers: 30-15 = 66% TvZ in IEM qualifier: 15-13 = 53% So after the hellbat change the matchup has changed quite a bit and I have no idea why blizzard addresses this matchup again instead of nerfig protoss overall strength
Counted 24-21 for Shoutcraft + GSL + Proleague and 28-18 for Code A qualifiers but whatever. I explained elsewhere why TvZ winrates are not as bad:
On July 04 2014 19:09 TheDwf wrote:
Bio in TvZ needs as much help, yes; Terrans in Korea mostly win thanks to 2 rax, mech and Hellbat timings. This is why winrates are not 35:65 like in TvP, but the fact many Korean Terrans do their best to stay away from triple OC bio macro games scenarii is a pretty telling tale in itself. If you were to run tests for normal 4M vs lings/banes/mutas games, you could expect similarly depressing results.
2 rax = cheese = cannot be used as a standard on all maps.
Hellbat timings = new timings so will get weaker over time + likely won't have enough impact to fix bio play because of how 3 hatch builds work (talked about it in the ZParcraft article).
Mech = map-dependent + likely will get weaker over time as Zergs refine their answers (soO vs TY on King Sejong is another example of the 7v5 bases stuff).
And none of this changes anything to the fact bio play has issues. You would have a point if the patch further buffed mech or Hellbat timings but that's not the case.
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EPT
