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Nebuchad
Switzerland12377 Posts
On July 09 2014 23:14 johnbongham wrote: Are people really trying to argue that terran is fine at the moment? How could anyone believe that? Do they even watch pro games? Can you please direct me to the post where Sated or I argued that terran was fine at the moment? I appear to have missed it. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Thor ai also got way easier to abuse, you could get them to use air first before and make them shoot a overlord, while your ground army rushed over them. Now everyone can do it and its hard to control the thors already. Oh and a roach doom drop buff as well, as Thors will be useless against this now. But quiet interested on how the ai change will help. Would be funny if Thors would use their anti air against colossus now. | ||
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johnbongham
451 Posts
On July 09 2014 23:27 Nebuchad wrote: Can you please direct me to the post where Sated or I argued that terran was fine at the moment? I appear to have missed it. Ok, so you are basically arguing that tvp is not at its most broken state because when hots first came out terrans enjoyed a brief statistical w/l advantage according to algulac (prior to hellbat/mine nerf oracle x2 buff). Ok, cool story, we are talking about the past 6 months. You should join our discussion. | ||
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Dingodile
4139 Posts
Thats not the problem... wm detects a ling, but marines (especially 3-3) are there too and kill it within 1,5sec before wm wanted to kill that ling. With that terran play you cant micro succesfully as zerg. pre-split and then a move into terran army, wm wont shot the first ling (marines killed them quicker), after 1,5 sec basically all zerg units are within wm radius, the begins the random shot and high hopes that it works well with friendly fire. Hopes in that scenario is always very bad. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 09 2014 23:21 TheDwf wrote: Counted 24-21 for Shoutcraft + GSL + Proleague and 28-18 for Code A qualifiers but whatever. I explained elsewhere why TvZ winrates are not as bad: 2 rax = cheese = cannot be used as a standard on all maps. Hellbat timings = new timings so will get weaker over time + likely won't have enough impact to fix bio play because of how 3 hatch builds work (talked about it in the ZParcraft article). Mech = map-dependent + likely will get weaker over time as Zergs refine their answers (soO vs TY on King Sejong is another example of the 7v5 bases stuff). And none of this changes anything to the fact bio play has issues. You would have a point if the patch further buffed mech or Hellbat timings but that's not the case. That argument that "Zergs refine their answers" is pretty weak though, because what hinders Terran to refine their strategies to begin with to deal with the answers - that might not even exist to begin with. Balancing has to be done on a current status, everything else is vodoo. The current status is 4Terrans in Code S to ~10Zergs, 5foreign Terrans in EU Premier to ~8foreign Zergs and the winrates swinging both ways. With that status being like that for longer. Hence Terran is a little weaker (though it has already been adressed once lately), yet, it looks like rather a small degree compared to TvP issues. Also, if the only problem was that bio play became the roach/hydra of Terran there wouldn't be any need to patch. | ||
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Tsubbi
Germany7996 Posts
the timing of a balance update focussed on tvz after the weekend which crowned 3 new protoss champions in all regions is especially amusing | ||
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Fus
Sweden1112 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9408 Posts
Either win rates are flawed or using the newest Korean win rates gives a better picture. You can't have both. Basically, your argument isn't even internally consistent, so why should I listen to anything you have to say? Win/rates can be flawed to look at isolated, but can still be an indicator. When win/rates are below 40% that's a strong indicator of a balnace issue - especailly as terran in general is largely underpresented which means that they in most tournaments should have win/rates above 50% assuming equal balance. Win/rates around 50% on the other hand isn't an indiactor of balance as the adjusted skillbased win/rates couuld easliy be above 55%. Oh and yes, this is a oneway thing. It's terran that is underpresented, so it's the terran win/rates that (in general) are "supposed" to be above 50%. It's quite rarely that terran is overrepresented in tournaments (I don't believe that's the case for the tournaments DWF mentioned at least). | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5218 Posts
On July 09 2014 02:14 Thezzy wrote: I just wish they consider improving other units and abilities, rather than just slightly improving the few builds that already exist. This is what I dream about. The best part is, if they buff other units and abilities new viable strategies will exist, in addition to the existing ones! | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On July 09 2014 23:33 Big J wrote: That argument that "Zergs refine their answers" is pretty weak though, because what hinders Terran to refine their strategies to begin with to deal with the answers - that might not even exist to begin with. No, that's a central argument and it's historically proven. Remember Hellions/Banshees at the end of WoL? 20-30 Drones kills on average during the first days. A few weeks later, losing 10 Drones was considered sloppy. Or just Zerg's play vs 4M at the beginning of HotS and a few months later. There were clear differences in control. You have to factor realistic possibilities of improvement. This process cannot continue forever for both sides because there is a ceiling. What you call "voodoo" is forced, otherwise you can never claim something is imbalanced. Perhaps Terran and Protoss were missing something critical at the end of WoL and broods/infests would have been solved over time? Balancing has to be done on a current status, everything else is vodoo. The current status is 4Terrans in Code S to ~10Zergs, 5foreign Terrans in EU Premier to ~8foreign Zergs and the winrates swinging both ways. With that status being like that for longer. Hence Terran is a little weaker (though it has already been adressed once lately), yet, it looks like rather a small degree compared to TvP issues. Also, if the only problem was that bio play became the roach/hydra of Terran there wouldn't be any need to patch. Indeed. That's why I specifically mention that the current alternative forms of play that maintain Terran out of the water won't remain as strong to compensate. There needs to be a viable all-around standard. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
For example in BW there were some maps you simply could not build in the middle of the map. If that was implemented in SC2 the issue of Swarmhost's Camping the middle of a map with Spores and Spines. More Narrow pathways, might help with Mech. IDK but, its worth a try and being that we have such a large map pool, Blizzard should take advantage and throw some curve balls in that people could just as well veto. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 10 2014 00:01 TheDwf wrote: No, that's a central argument and it's historically proven. Remember Hellions/Banshees at the end of WoL? 20-30 Drones kills on average during the first days. A few weeks later, losing 10 Drones was considered sloppy. Or just Zerg's play vs 4M at the beginning of HotS and a few months later. There were clear differences in control. You have to factor realistic possibilities of improvement. This process cannot continue forever for both sides because there is a ceiling. What you call "voodoo" is forced, otherwise you can never claim something is imbalanced. Perhaps Terran and Protoss were missing something critical at the end of WoL and broods/infests would have been solved over time? Indeed. That's why I specifically mention that the current alternative forms of play that maintain Terran out of the water won't remain as strong to compensate. There needs to be a viable all-around standard. Perhaps BL/Infestor would have been solved. But that's where part two of what I wrote strikes, balancing has to be done on the status quo. The question is why it is realistical that Zergs solve their problems, but Terrans do not. 11/11 exists up to this day and is playable in ZvT. It has never been solved completely. Maybe hellbats will get solved so that they won't be playable anymore, but maybe they will just become part of the metagame where a Zerg has to play against a possible hellbat push, whether it comes or not. It's not realistical to assume something is solveable without that adapation weakening the race in another scenario (like macro games when a zerg opens defensive roach against possible hellbats). | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
On July 10 2014 00:19 Doodsmack wrote: How can blizzard be so obtuse that photon overcharge nerf would not be the first thing on their list of balance changes? Because it would return PvP to the 4g vs 4g era thanks to Warp Gate. Nerfing the defensive portion of the MSC is thusly tricky, but the offensive portion could do with a change. To help TvP early game I'd propose to slow the MSC down to the old Overlord speed (around 0.88) and adding a MSC speed upgrade to the Cybernetics Core at 50/50/110. It would delay any straight up MSC attack on the mineral line by quite a bit and by putting the upgrade at the Cybernetics Core you cannot have Warp Gate and MSC Speed at the same time early on, weakening a Blink all-in. It wouldn't weaken any defensive play with the MSC as you can still park it between the main and the natural to cast Photon Overcharge. | ||
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Ctone23
United States1839 Posts
On July 10 2014 00:19 Doodsmack wrote: How can blizzard be so obtuse that photon overcharge nerf would not be the first thing on their list of balance changes? Because PvP | ||
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KatatoniK
United Kingdom978 Posts
On July 10 2014 00:19 Doodsmack wrote: How can blizzard be so obtuse that photon overcharge nerf would not be the first thing on their list of balance changes? Photon Overcharge isn't the major issue here, yes it needs tweaking without completely obliterating PvP but there are waaay more pressing issues in regards to PvT. Like Time Warp, the non-existance of Terran lategame and lack of scouting opportunities for Terran early on. | ||
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bhfberserk
Canada390 Posts
Anyone actually want to try make a custom map with a (proven balance ladder map - say Frost) With just 1 change, BUFF THE TANK!!! Something like: Sieged: vs Light Primary Target (35 +15 Shield Dmg) Splash Radius 1.5 = 75% Splash Radius 2.0 = 50% Splash Radius 2.5 = 25% vs Armour Primary Target (50 + 20 Shield Dmg) Splash Radius 1.5 = 75% Splash Radius 2.0 = 50% Splash Radius 2.5 = 25% I know these numbers are random, but I seriously doubt it is that hard for Blizzard to test it out in the next balance test map. Adding Shield Damage can soften the hard counter done by the Immortal. It will knock down 30 shield of immortal at this first idea. If there are enough people interested, we can make a group channel in SC2 and start posting results on the forum. Would be quite sick if you can go marine Tank in TvP! | ||
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varsovie
Canada326 Posts
On July 09 2014 23:49 Hider wrote: especailly as terran in general is largely underpresented which means that they in most tournaments should have win/rates above 50% assuming equal balance. Are you dumb or only dumb? Balanced means 50% win-rate in average if opponents of same caliber, preferably across the whole spectrum (pros and GM to bronze). Not that tournaments should always have the holy 1/3 repartition up to the final. User was warned for this post | ||
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eightym
United States76 Posts
It's more important for PvP to have variety than for TvP to be balanced. Get with the times. | ||
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MoebiusOnE
11 Posts
They should also add the reduction in WM Friendly fire!! | ||
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