EPTOn July 06 2014 07:06 Faust852 wrote:
Lol some pro are really fucking biased lol.
Lol some pro are really fucking biased lol.
And Downfall's article that you jack off to isn't biased?
Pro Opinions: Proposed Terran Buffs - Page 5
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
And Downfall's article that you jack off to isn't biased? | ||
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D-light
Finland7364 Posts
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ETisME
12892 Posts
- nerchio This quote is really something and I completely agree with him. | ||
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IMPrime
United States715 Posts
But that's the problem with tanks. Keyword is SHOULD. But in SC2, terrans require tanks to be sieged in a fight just to have a fighting chance. In theory, if you have a good tank count and they are sieged, you will not break that line with a pure ground army. In BW, I do not recall anyone breaking a good sieged tank line with a pure ground army; even something as simple as putting HTs or reavers in shuttles would greatly help a toss beat a tank line. I'm not sure how to make tanks better in tvz, since the big problem with tanks being useless is the muta HP regen making it too easy for zergs to snipe tanks (also the fact that the viper just totally shits on tanks too, but zergs don't often go vipers because terrans don't make tanks anyway). But the way to fix tanks in tvp is to give them a bonus damage to shields. The fact that protosses can break a big tank line with 0 air units is just bad; they have too many units that tanks can never kill. I don't know exactly how much the bonus should be, but it would go a long way towards making immortals not be such a hard counter to tanks, or chargelots requiring 5 shots to kill. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19395 Posts
That or put everything from the wol and HoTS campaign in the game. | ||
Shellshock
United States97277 Posts
On July 06 2014 11:17 BisuDagger wrote: That or put everything from the wol and HoTS campaign in the game. Including Warhounds? | ||
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MiniFotToss
China2430 Posts
On July 06 2014 07:49 Hider wrote: Well removal of hardned shield does as it affects Roaches vs Immortals as well + Maurauder vs Immortals, but Tank bonus vs shield buffs tanks vs protoss which could shake up the meta. But isn't that exactly what we want? Oracles have probably the worst control in the game. BW succesed with its air units because all of them were extremely reponsive but none of them were extremely OP when unmicroed. Unforuntatley, Blizzard didn't follow that concept with the Oracle which is the prototype of what not to do. are you guys serious? the immortal was meant to deal with seige tanks from BW, thats why they have hardened shield, other than immortals (or maybe so many zealots, it is hard to go out without already losing units to tanks, just buff tanks, dont nerf immortals, they were meant to counter tanks | ||
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MiniFotToss
China2430 Posts
they removed it, why would they bring it back in, thats just weired, just why remove a unit if you're going to bring it back in again? | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
And teleporting Swarmhosts. | ||
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Superbanana
2369 Posts
On July 06 2014 11:10 IMPrime wrote: Siege tanks are one of the most skill intensive units to use, and so a buff to tanks could only improve the game, as only the good players will properly utilize tanks. Some people may not see it that way because tanks in an actual fight require no micro, but tanks require insane map awareness to utilize properly. The terran needs to know exactly where the other player's army is, because unsieged tanks are useless. And he needs to know if the opponent is trying to go around his tank line too. And the other player needs to know where the terran army is, because if he runs headfirst into a tank line he SHOULD lose. But that's the problem with tanks. Keyword is SHOULD. But in SC2, terrans require tanks to be sieged in a fight just to have a fighting chance. In theory, if you have a good tank count and they are sieged, you will not break that line with a pure ground army. In BW, I do not recall anyone breaking a good sieged tank line with a pure ground army; even something as simple as putting HTs or reavers in shuttles would greatly help a toss beat a tank line. I'm not sure how to make tanks better in tvz, since the big problem with tanks being useless is the muta HP regen making it too easy for zergs to snipe tanks (also the fact that the viper just totally shits on tanks too, but zergs don't often go vipers because terrans don't make tanks anyway). But the way to fix tanks in tvp is to give them a bonus damage to shields. The fact that protosses can break a big tank line with 0 air units is just bad; they have too many units that tanks can never kill. I don't know exactly how much the bonus should be, but it would go a long way towards making immortals not be such a hard counter to tanks, or chargelots requiring 5 shots to kill. I think they should have a 2hit attack with around half damage (slightly highter), doubling their damage vs immos shield, but not making them much better vs other toss units. That can make biomech work, you can make mines or hellbats to deal with zealots. Protoss should not be forced to make voids vs tanks because marines hard counter them. But TvP late game army control with biomech is going to be a nightmare for terran  (altough a little bit harder for protoss too).For TvZ the Thor suggestion from Snute might work, the imbalance is not big after hellbat patch. It looks like you agree with me that the issue is not tanks, its mutas. | ||
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TRaFFiC
Canada1448 Posts
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
On July 06 2014 10:55 ZAiNs wrote: And Downfall's article that you jack off to isn't biased? Some pros are way more biased when asked of their opinion regarding balance than that article will ever be construed to be, I'm looking at you "BL-Infestor" Rain. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On July 06 2014 06:54 Hider wrote: No. It's way too complicated and not an effective change either. Look at it this way: Why would you make a Zerg-specific fix to the Thor when the Thor is already only really used in that matchup anyway? You can just make a more general buff Thor that strenghtens vs all races. For instance, a small increase in splash, a damage buff, a range buff or a movement speed buff etc. There are tons of more simple fixes here, and I believe Snutes suggestions in general are way way too overcomplicated. Why would it be limited to Zerg anyway? Protoss regenerate too just shields instead of health. It could actually be a step in a mech TvP direction as it would help mech deal with immortals if their shields regenerated slowly. Also, complicated? Infernal Preigniter Adds ____ attack to thor that when hit, opponents regenerate at Y health/second. Where Y is a number smaller than the current health/second ratio increase | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On July 06 2014 07:13 avilo wrote: A lot of these pros really have no idea how to balance an RTS, some changes too specific and intricate, others are way off of course and biased because they only play 1 race. Really all that needs to happen guys is this: 1) Revert widow mine in TvZ for bio. This gives Terran a splash damage unit again...that forces Zerg to micro as well instead of just 1A mass banes/mutas. Very simple change, Zergs will complain of course because they don't want to have to micro again. This change barely affects mech because mech TvZ does not use a lot of mines in the first place (mines are terrible with mech). 2) Buff the siege tank in TvP so that it actually creates positional play and tanks can be cost effective vs warp gate/immortals. Bio does not scale at all into late game versus area of effect. If the tank is returned to it's former glory we could see Terrans actually building units out of the factory in this match-up, whether that is pure mech, or going bio and then incorporating siege tanks later in the game for splash damage....just like Protoss has splash damage. 3) Nerf the Tempest to 6-8 supply. This goes along the same lines of empowring more siege tank play in TvP, and discouraging the use of just simply massing pure tempests/carriers vs mech Terran. 4) Remove/severely nerf the nexus cannon for TvP early game so that Terran has more options, such as cloak banshee builds that are brought back into play. As well as remove/nerf some of Protoss's options like DT shrine, revert oracle speed...they have too many all-ins, over 20 literally that include various forms of pure gateway allins from wings of liberty, and new ones with proxied buildlings/blink. The problem with TvP right now is early game and late game. They coincide. Terran always gets handicapped in the first 10-12 minutes while being unable to do anything via build order vs the nexus cannon which let's Protoss be greedy, Protoss doesn't have to build 400-600 gas worth of sentries because of the nexus cannon..which is very wrong and tilts the early game towards Protoss too much, which then snowballs into lategame making Protoss lategame hit 1-2 minutes earlier than it did in Wings...which is why you see the issues you do nowadays. 5) Ravens are not an issue - please pros/noobs alike stop trying to circle jerk more Terran nerfs. There is already a counter to mass viking/raven lategame from Zerg called mass vipers. I'm talking about 10+ vipers with infestors for fungals, which is the equivalent of viking/raven but no Zerg does this yet. The answer is already there, it's just not practiced at all. Please, no more Terran nerfing, not to mention the raven is the only lategame unit Terran has right now compared to Z/P tier3. Edited: Look, don't trash pro players for expressing an opinion that is biased when you too are heavily biased, and then proceed to immediately follow up that criticism by doing exactly what you criticized. If you wonder why it's sometimes hard to take you seriously, it's things like this. | ||
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oxxo
988 Posts
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goody153
44309 Posts
On July 06 2014 13:13 oxxo wrote: The most annoying part about this is that T lategame issues have been talked about for literally years but Blizzard keeps targetting early/mid game stuff. maybe blizz doesn't really have any clear solution to terran lategame without making it OP if they buff it. | ||
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Greenei
Germany1754 Posts
#BringbackourWarhounds | ||
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-NegativeZero-
United States2142 Posts
On July 06 2014 13:18 goody153 wrote: maybe blizz doesn't really have any clear solution to terran lategame without making it OP if they buff it. ...buff it less? | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Kurr
Canada2338 Posts
Before even bringing balance in, the end-game is fucking boring as it's often the mid-game with more units. Make ghosts (nukes and EMP that was over-nerfed) more useful, BCs more useful (or slightly faster/more affordable to build to incite people to actually make them --- right now it's like a lose button to make them; in 99% of games that I have ever seen them made the T was way ahead and lost when he made BCs because of how bad their value is). I recently watched the top40 games of 2013, GSL and a few other randoms and the biggest disappointment is how many units get left out of EVERY matchup. Even the other races need to be looked at for this (zerg is probably the one in the best spot but I noticed broodlords and infestors are rarely seen). And as always I wish Nydus were more prominent if Blizzard buffed them a bit. It's the most interesting concept for Zerg IMO. Protoss is in a decent place (carriers still pretty much a joke unit it seems) in terms of unit usage from what I can tell. Since the balance already needs to be fixed for end-game, it's a great opportunity to make different units more useful, especially various exciting end-game units. I personally hope they do this for LoV (and add 1-2 unit per race of course) at the very least. I can't believe several years in that end-game units are still so under-used =/ Again I don't play this game. But as a watcher I wish the balance was shifted to let players use more interested units in the late game. | ||
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