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Pro Opinions: Proposed Terran Buffs - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 General
352 CommentsPost a Reply
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Pisko.
Profile Joined August 2011
United States214 Posts
July 05 2014 23:02 GMT
#41
The op says pro opinions but I don't see any pro opinions...

User was warned for this post
life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
Cazimirbzh
Profile Joined February 2014
334 Posts
July 05 2014 23:03 GMT
#42
5) Ravens are not an issue - please pros/noobs alike stop trying to circle jerk more Terran nerfs. There is already a counter to mass viking/raven lategame from Zerg called mass vipers. I'm talking about 10+ vipers with infestors for fungals, which is the equivalent of viking/raven but no Zerg does this yet. The answer is already there, it's just not practiced at all. Please, no more Terran nerfing, not to mention the raven is the only lategame unit Terran has right now compared to Z/P tier3.


i wonder what are u going to say when they revome the raven^^ it's not about nerf, it's just a pourly design unit.
In broodwar, u could go for science vessel cause starport was not busy producing medivacs. Now i feel like as it has been already said terran cant mix enought unit. I'd love to see 1-1-1 that would not be allin.

a more easier access to pdd could take care of 3) and 4)
1) and 2) are good ways to try some work on terran aoe but i dont feel that taking a step this far back would be good. +5 dmg will be enought but i'll mainly add more bonus dmg with upgrades(+2mobile/+5splash)
for the wm, i have no clue how much splash dmg radius should be up.
Morrissey
Profile Blog Joined April 2014
Germany55 Posts
July 05 2014 23:04 GMT
#43
I completely agree with most of the players. Terran midgame is already strong enough. i wpould like more tech options and lategame-transitions for terran
MarineKingPrime forever
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
July 05 2014 23:08 GMT
#44
Would've liked to see input from Kespa pros about this but guess not lol. Good range of foreign players otherwise.
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
SirPinky
Profile Joined February 2011
United States525 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-05 23:14:16
July 05 2014 23:12 GMT
#45
On July 06 2014 06:31 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
What do you think Blizzard should target with their changes to help Terran?


Ideally, you would want to redesign larger parts of the game, but let's wait for LOTV with that. Below is my suggestions for next patch notes;


- PDD nerfed
- Siege Tanks damage vs shield increased by 10-15 (ignores hardened shield)
- Drilling Claws also reduces unsige duration by 50% (allows tanks to be used more offensively vs zerg
- Ghost cost reduced from 200/100 to 150/100. BT reduced from 40 to 35
- When you target fire with Widow Mines, the 1.5 second timer doesn't reset and/or Widow Mine splash AOE increased
- Lower duration on Viking transformation (why not... everyone wants to see this one I believe).

Effect of the changes:
Should be quite effective at making mech alot better vs toss. Bio will be buffed a bit late game vs toss. Widow Mines will be better which means zergs need to micro more during engagements vs terran, and aggressive usesage of Siege Tanks are buffed as well. With a nerf to PDD; we also get rid of some of the dumb turtlemech games, which will make Avilo sad, but most other people will enjoy it as it means that "actual" mech can be buffed.

Show nested quote +
On July 06 2014 06:28 Insane wrote:
Hmmm...

Dimaga: Terran is too strong right now
Everyone else: yeah, Terran could probably use some change to help out.

Thanks for the article


Well to be fair, while I really like the Hellbat change for TvT (and TvP I guess), I think it did a terrible job at adressing the more important issues of the game. Before the patch was launched, I warned against it as I pointed out that terran early game vs Zerg was it's strongest phase in the game already as it had map control and could pressure the zerg well. David Kims balance-logic was that a small buff early game to terran could force the zerg to have less drones going in the midgame --> Later game nerf to zerg.
However, buffing the options of the race that already has map control is in the early game a lot more likely to snowball situations than adressing midgame/later game balance issues. Especially since Hellbat openings really aren't solid, but more build-order win based. Over the last week I have done a lot of 2base Hellbat timings and I feel extremely dirty (almost like a protoss player) as there really isn't that much micro/multitasking to it, but it often happen that you get lucky and the zerg player guesses wrong (since he can't tell whether it's banshees or hellbats when Marines deny Overlord scouting).
In my opinion Transformation cost should simply have been reduced to 50/50 instead (since the cost indeed was overpriced at 150/150).

So buffing a race that is fine early game to adress a midgame issue is a nono and I am surprised David Kim hasn't learned that yet after years of experience. Instead, it simply always made more sense to (partially) revert Widow Mine nerf as creates more micro-interactions by forcing the zerg to micro more during engagements. A widow Mine buff both buffs terran in the mid and late game vs zerg which is needed becasue right now terran has a very difficult time moving out on the map/pushing creep back/pressuring 4ths/5ths if he didn't do a lot of damage in the early game. A stronger Widow Mine could help with that and then in the later game, better Tanks could help with mass amounts of Banelings


Are you one of those people that see one TvZ mech game and suddenly say "nerf PDD"? Yes PDD is powerful, but you are moving in the wrong direction. The Raven is the ONLY viable late game unit Terran has against Swarm Hosts. If you nerf Raven then you have to nerf Swarm Hosts. Any nerf to the PDD would cause games to devolve into little mech play and increase 4M play. And I also bet you forgot about mass Tempest in your quick-to-judge assesment. There is no answer to mass Tempest without the PDD. It is already almost unbeatable with PDD against Tempest/HT.
How much better to get wisdom than gold; to get insight rather than silver!
Corazon
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States3230 Posts
July 05 2014 23:12 GMT
#46
On July 06 2014 07:56 avilo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2014 07:38 Corazon wrote:
On July 06 2014 07:13 avilo wrote:
A lot of these pros really have no idea how to balance an RTS, some changes too specific and intricate, others are way off of course and biased because they only play 1 race.

Really all that needs to happen guys is this:
1) Revert widow mine in TvZ for bio. This gives Terran a splash damage unit again...that forces Zerg to micro as well instead of just 1A mass banes/mutas. Very simple change, Zergs will complain of course because they don't want to have to micro again.

This change barely affects mech because mech TvZ does not use a lot of mines in the first place (mines are terrible with mech).

2) Buff the siege tank in TvP so that it actually creates positional play and tanks can be cost effective vs warp gate/immortals. Bio does not scale at all into late game versus area of effect. If the tank is returned to it's former glory we could see Terrans actually building units out of the factory in this match-up, whether that is pure mech, or going bio and then incorporating siege tanks later in the game for splash damage....just like Protoss has splash damage.

3) Nerf the Tempest to 6-8 supply. This goes along the same lines of empowring more siege tank play in TvP, and discouraging the use of just simply massing pure tempests/carriers vs mech Terran.

4) Remove/severely nerf the nexus cannon for TvP early game so that Terran has more options, such as cloak banshee builds that are brought back into play. As well as remove/nerf some of Protoss's options like DT shrine, revert oracle speed...they have too many all-ins, over 20 literally that include various forms of pure gateway allins from wings of liberty, and new ones with proxied buildlings/blink. The problem with TvP right now is early game and late game. They coincide.

Terran always gets handicapped in the first 10-12 minutes while being unable to do anything via build order vs the nexus cannon which let's Protoss be greedy, Protoss doesn't have to build 400-600 gas worth of sentries because of the nexus cannon..which is very wrong and tilts the early game towards Protoss too much, which then snowballs into lategame making Protoss lategame hit 1-2 minutes earlier than it did in Wings...which is why you see the issues you do nowadays.

5) Ravens are not an issue - please pros/noobs alike stop trying to circle jerk more Terran nerfs. There is already a counter to mass viking/raven lategame from Zerg called mass vipers. I'm talking about 10+ vipers with infestors for fungals, which is the equivalent of viking/raven but no Zerg does this yet. The answer is already there, it's just not practiced at all. Please, no more Terran nerfing, not to mention the raven is the only lategame unit Terran has right now compared to Z/P tier3.

Bio is good. You should try it sometime.


In the current metagame, bio is absolutely terrible if you play a really good defensive Zerg that knows to accumulate mass mutas and then mass banelings (30+ banes). Mech is a stronger lategame army than bio, and since a Zerg is going to basically force you to lategame...they just need to revert the mine nerf so bio has splash damage involved again.


See, at least that sentence was somewhat close to positive. Better than saying that pros have no clue what they are doing and are biased towards their race before posting 4 ridiculous suggestions (the mine one is valid though so I'll give you that) that are all Terran biased.

Well done Avilo, you are obviously the voice of reason when it come to balance.
Grubby's #1 Fan
WonDeRSC
Profile Joined June 2011
United States234 Posts
July 05 2014 23:13 GMT
#47
I liked Xeno's answers. I think that finding a solution for mass banes and mass muta is the correct answer.
I also like Qxc's suggestion to make creep recede faster. This will allow a more long lasting effect of properly pushing creep back.
I don't know how tanks will affect TvZ, but I really hope for no mech buffs in TvT.
diverzee
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden992 Posts
July 05 2014 23:14 GMT
#48
While Korean opinions are perhaps more important, reading these foreigners' answers is more interesting. Koreans seem to mostly act like Nerchio here, whine, and never admit their advantages, and don't seem to put much effort in their answers (which is perhaps a consequence of translation). Look at the effort Snute and Xenocider put into their answers. Super interesting!
Parting
SirPinky
Profile Joined February 2011
United States525 Posts
July 05 2014 23:16 GMT
#49
On July 06 2014 08:13 WonDeRSC wrote:
I liked Xeno's answers. I think that finding a solution for mass banes and mass muta is the correct answer.
I also like Qxc's suggestion to make creep recede faster. This will allow a more long lasting effect of properly pushing creep back.
I don't know how tanks will affect TvZ, but I really hope for no mech buffs in TvT.


I remember there was a Blizzard test map to play around with creep tumor energy cost from the queen to help in reducing creep spread. I think it was actually at the end of WoL with the horrible state of Terran (go figure we are in the same place again). I don't know why they didn't implement it.
How much better to get wisdom than gold; to get insight rather than silver!
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
July 05 2014 23:18 GMT
#50
On July 06 2014 08:16 SirPinky wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2014 08:13 WonDeRSC wrote:
I liked Xeno's answers. I think that finding a solution for mass banes and mass muta is the correct answer.
I also like Qxc's suggestion to make creep recede faster. This will allow a more long lasting effect of properly pushing creep back.
I don't know how tanks will affect TvZ, but I really hope for no mech buffs in TvT.


I remember there was a Blizzard test map to play around with creep tumor energy cost from the queen to help in reducing creep spread. I think it was actually at the end of WoL with the horrible state of Terran (go figure we are in the same place again). I don't know why they didn't implement it.

Mvp won sLivko, Vortix and Nerchio so all was fine.
SirPinky
Profile Joined February 2011
United States525 Posts
July 05 2014 23:22 GMT
#51
On July 06 2014 08:14 diverzee wrote:
While Korean opinions are perhaps more important, reading these foreigners' answers is more interesting. Koreans seem to mostly act like Nerchio here, whine, and never admit their advantages, and don't seem to put much effort in their answers (which is perhaps a consequence of translation). Look at the effort Snute and Xenocider put into their answers. Super interesting!


Every time I see Nerchio polled in one of these, it is like pulling teeth to acknowledge any problems. He deflects the question(s) and focuses on Terran's strong points instead of the real issues (late game). I think Terran could be forever eliminated from Code S RO32 and Nerchio would have a reason why there shouldn't be any balance changes. Mana is right up there too, somehow hinting that Protoss is underpowered in the late game b/c of mules?!! What? I guess I can't blame them...they want to win tournaments even if one of the races is considered "weaker" than the rest.
How much better to get wisdom than gold; to get insight rather than silver!
PinoKotsBeer
Profile Joined February 2014
Netherlands1385 Posts
July 05 2014 23:22 GMT
#52
Buff tanks/mech in TvP would be the best for the matchup.
http://www.twitch.tv/pinokotsbeer
jubil
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2602 Posts
July 05 2014 23:24 GMT
#53
I'd just like to see the Battlecruiser actually used, the Ghost more useful, and maybe the Tank stronger.
Marineking-Polt-Maru-Fantasy-Solar-Xenocider-Suppy fighting!
Undead1993
Profile Joined January 2012
Germany17651 Posts
July 05 2014 23:24 GMT
#54
I actually agree with nerchio, we need another game, at least a new expansion, blizzard fucked that up waaay too much. when they try to fix it it will only get worse. i was playing wol the other day and i have to say WOL was a much better game than HOTS ever was.
SEKO SEKO SEKO SEKO SEKO
siriuschw
Profile Joined December 2013
Chile19 Posts
July 05 2014 23:27 GMT
#55
I really liked Snute's ideas, and coming from a zerg himself makes it sound very objective
ad astra per aspera
SirPinky
Profile Joined February 2011
United States525 Posts
July 05 2014 23:27 GMT
#56
On July 06 2014 08:18 TheDwf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2014 08:16 SirPinky wrote:
On July 06 2014 08:13 WonDeRSC wrote:
I liked Xeno's answers. I think that finding a solution for mass banes and mass muta is the correct answer.
I also like Qxc's suggestion to make creep recede faster. This will allow a more long lasting effect of properly pushing creep back.
I don't know how tanks will affect TvZ, but I really hope for no mech buffs in TvT.


I remember there was a Blizzard test map to play around with creep tumor energy cost from the queen to help in reducing creep spread. I think it was actually at the end of WoL with the horrible state of Terran (go figure we are in the same place again). I don't know why they didn't implement it.

Mvp won sLivko, Vortix and Nerchio so all was fine.


Lol, that makes sense. One Terran to balance the entire game around. Why do I feel Taeja and Maru are being used as the scapegoats for opposing races to say, "See they beat a P and Z. It can be done!" Ya, too bad you only need 10,000 apm to do it.
How much better to get wisdom than gold; to get insight rather than silver!
ilikeredheads
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada1995 Posts
July 05 2014 23:28 GMT
#57
I think Blizzard has time and time again shown that either they have no idea what they are doing or they are so arrogant that they don't listen to the pro's opinion.
Superbanana
Profile Joined May 2014
2369 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-05 23:36:03
July 05 2014 23:28 GMT
#58
On July 06 2014 07:49 Hider wrote:
I think the extra shield damage and ignore hardened shields ideas sound like *sspulls and change the game more than its acceptable.


Well removal of hardned shield does as it affects Roaches vs Immortals as well + Maurauder vs Immortals, but Tank bonus vs shield buffs tanks vs protoss which could shake up the meta. But isn't that exactly what we want?


I mentioned double hit for tanks, because it can just do the trick and its a cleaner change. Tanks are already decent vs gate stuff and at zoning out HT, while immortals are supposed to be good against them. Biomech vs protoss is only weak because immortals melt tanks and thors, making tanks do twice the damage vs their shields might be just enough.
I also think the pros gave some interesting insights, and are much more neutral that most people on this thread
Double factory play might become an interesting agressive option for the midgame.

In PvZ the zerg can make the situation spire out of control but protoss can adept to the situation.
Sapphire.lux
Profile Joined July 2010
Romania2620 Posts
July 05 2014 23:33 GMT
#59
Interesting opinions.

Lots of bias as expected, but there does seem to be a bit of a consensus. Buff late game Terran not mid game; buff Tanks and mech vs Protoss not bio.
Head Coach Park: "They should buff tanks!"
Greenhit
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States200 Posts
July 05 2014 23:39 GMT
#60
Why not bring the lockdown ability back from brood war? Wouldnt it only affect tvt and tvp and make a tank buff possible to implement without making it all mech vs mech in tvt? Doesn't necessarily have to be a ghost ability again either?
"And where do you live Simon?" "In the weak and the wounded, Doc."
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