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I'm curious how the synergy (if any) works between Mines and Tanks.
Although in theory you could use Mines and Tanks to bait out Mutas (Tanks are a Muta magnet) I doubt a Mine would kill off every single Zergling/Muta trying to kill that Tank.
If Mine had longer AA range and could protect tanks from Mutas, it might be a different story. But right now you need Marines to protect Mines anyway from being picked up by Mutas.
But the real issue is that terran in general losses alot of battles in the midgame and thus needs a mobile army that can escape. When you go tanks on the other hand, you need to win the battle when you move out. You can only do that if you have the critical mass of supply/Tank count and when you start to get close to maxed, then Widow Mines start to suffer a lot from their 2 supply and you really just rather replace those Widow Mines with Siege Tanks anyway then.
That was basically why the Tank buff/Widow Mine nerf would never accomplish anything at all. It was rather easy to predict that either the Tank/marine compositon would be dominant or the 4M would be. It was never realistic to expect terrans to mix both of them together.
DK acknolwewded that the 4M composition (prepatch) wasn't imbalanced, but thought he could maintain balance but create a better gameplay by making it possible to mix tanks and Mines together. However, as I argued in this post, that was never possible, and thus he left the game in a clearly imbalanced state for over 7 months. Not only that, it also made micro-requirements alot smaller for the zerg, as splitting against Widow Mines became irrelevant, thus making the TvZ matchup less interesting to watch.
The mine-nerf patch was therefore by far the worst patch ever becasue it was very easy to predict that it never would work.
Queen patch in that regard was nowhere near as bad as it did attempt to fix a real problem (terran too strong early game TvZ). The real issue back then was the zerg late composition itself, Broodlord/Infestor. Not the early game.
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+ This one is a bit silly but maybe in the late-game ... Terran could call down Barracks units from space to a Medivac location instead of having to walk them across the map? Haha. Just a thought :D
One from the campaign (which played really weak there).
It'd be an interesting upgrade at say fusion core or armoury :D
Might help the late game reinforcement disparity.
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we need lagacy of the void indeed. taking too long and the game is dieing off...
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On July 16 2014 01:49 RevolutionX wrote:
we need lagacy of the void indeed. taking too long and the game is dieing off...
Already see the wordsmiths at work.
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![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/images/race/SC2T10.png) ROOT.Iaguz: Maybe a slight one. I think for most of HotS up until the last 6 months, Zerg was the harder race to play, but they've trained themselves to deal with most of our common timings and tightened up all aspects of Ling/Bane/Muta style play (nerfs to widow mines and hellbats surely didn't hurt, of course). Add in favorable maps and of course Zerg appears to have an edge, and now it's up to Terrans to tighten up their execution in turn.
Pick it up, Terrans. =P
In all seriousness, I love this answer.
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On July 16 2014 02:03 Mistakes wrote:Show nested quote +ROOT.Iaguz: Maybe a slight one. I think for most of HotS up until the last 6 months, Zerg was the harder race to play, but they've trained themselves to deal with most of our common timings and tightened up all aspects of Ling/Bane/Muta style play (nerfs to widow mines and hellbats surely didn't hurt, of course). Add in favorable maps and of course Zerg appears to have an edge, and now it's up to Terrans to tighten up their execution in turn. Pick it up, Terrans. =P In all seriousness, I love this answer.
"Pick it up, Terrans. =P"
It's kinda funny nobody said that when zergs were dealing with pre nerf widow mines and hellbats.
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On July 15 2014 18:33 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +I'm curious how the synergy (if any) works between Mines and Tanks.
Although in theory you could use Mines and Tanks to bait out Mutas (Tanks are a Muta magnet) I doubt a Mine would kill off every single Zergling/Muta trying to kill that Tank. If Mine had longer AA range and could protect tanks from Mutas, it might be a different story. But right now you need Marines to protect Mines anyway from being picked up by Mutas. But the real issue is that terran in general losses alot of battles in the midgame and thus needs a mobile army that can escape. When you go tanks on the other hand, you need to win the battle when you move out. You can only do that if you have the critical mass of supply/Tank count and when you start to get close to maxed, then Widow Mines start to suffer a lot from their 2 supply and you really just rather replace those Widow Mines with Siege Tanks anyway then. That was basically why the Tank buff/Widow Mine nerf would never accomplish anything at all. It was rather easy to predict that either the Tank/marine compositon would be dominant or the 4M would be. It was never realistic to expect terrans to mix both of them together. DK acknolwewded that the 4M composition (prepatch) wasn't imbalanced, but thought he could maintain balance but create a better gameplay by making it possible to mix tanks and Mines together. However, as I argued in this post, that was never possible, and thus he left the game in a clearly imbalanced state for over 7 months. Not only that, it also made micro-requirements alot smaller for the zerg, as splitting against Widow Mines became irrelevant, thus making the TvZ matchup less interesting to watch. The mine-nerf patch was therefore by far the worst patch ever becasue it was very easy to predict that it never would work. Queen patch in that regard was nowhere near as bad as it did attempt to fix a real problem (terran too strong early game TvZ). The real issue back then was the zerg late composition itself, Broodlord/Infestor. Not the early game.
I don't know about that. I often fold zergs in midgame by 4 reactor factories and just spam mines at them. The key about using mines is not using too little. It's as much of a unit selection obligation as choosing mass bio.
On July 15 2014 16:30 Thezzy wrote:
I'm curious how the synergy (if any) works between Mines and Tanks.
Although in theory you could use Mines and Tanks to bait out Mutas (Tanks are a Muta magnet) I doubt a Mine would kill off every single Zergling/Muta trying to kill that Tank. Once Zerg closes the distance a Tank is essentially a crappier Mine (although it keeps shooting if it doesn't die).
You'd also be putting a lot of supply into stuff that has to Burrow/Siege before they become useful.
Would make pushing on creep a tricky thing at best.
It's not hard to do the math on it. WMs are 75-25, 2 supply. Mutas are 100-100, 2 supply. If you put 6 mines around a tank, that's 15 supply and not much gas. WM's dont overkill, so mutas are going to either try to magic box, charge in and die, or send in ling/bane to bait the WM. Since there's a tank involved, one ling wont get close, a few lings will die to tank + 1 widow mine, and a large cluster of lings will be needed to bait enough of the WM and allow the mutas to do their work. It's only 600 minerals and 275 gas to possibly either kill 10 mutas+ at much greater cost and supply, or 20 lings/banes.
It favors terran greatly. Although like I said, I usually just cluster about 20 mines in separate groups and send them on multiple paths to zerg bases. One cluster usually makes it through to dig in and start killing drones (or forces them to pull drones and lose their income, a single spine crawler with a spore is immaterial at this point), while the others got tied up, dug in early, and are zoning that area for my marines and more sets of mines to come in. I've gotten 10 kills instantly on lings with a single WM before. They ain't that bad.
On July 15 2014 18:33 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +I'm curious how the synergy (if any) works between Mines and Tanks.
Although in theory you could use Mines and Tanks to bait out Mutas (Tanks are a Muta magnet) I doubt a Mine would kill off every single Zergling/Muta trying to kill that Tank. If Mine had longer AA range and could protect tanks from Mutas, it might be a different story. But right now you need Marines to protect Mines anyway from being picked up by Mutas. But the real issue is that terran in general losses alot of battles in the midgame and thus needs a mobile army that can escape. When you go tanks on the other hand, you need to win the battle when you move out. You can only do that if you have the critical mass of supply/Tank count and when you start to get close to maxed, then Widow Mines start to suffer a lot from their 2 supply and you really just rather replace those Widow Mines with Siege Tanks anyway then. That was basically why the Tank buff/Widow Mine nerf would never accomplish anything at all. It was rather easy to predict that either the Tank/marine compositon would be dominant or the 4M would be. It was never realistic to expect terrans to mix both of them together. DK acknolwewded that the 4M composition (prepatch) wasn't imbalanced, but thought he could maintain balance but create a better gameplay by making it possible to mix tanks and Mines together. However, as I argued in this post, that was never possible, and thus he left the game in a clearly imbalanced state for over 7 months. Not only that, it also made micro-requirements alot smaller for the zerg, as splitting against Widow Mines became irrelevant, thus making the TvZ matchup less interesting to watch. The mine-nerf patch was therefore by far the worst patch ever becasue it was very easy to predict that it never would work. Queen patch in that regard was nowhere near as bad as it did attempt to fix a real problem (terran too strong early game TvZ). The real issue back then was the zerg late composition itself, Broodlord/Infestor. Not the early game.
Instead of marines to protect mines, just clump 4+ together. If they start using ling runbys to reset WM, one tank sitting on top of the WM creates a zone that only a concerted attack can defeat. It also steals map control. The fun thing is that it's a lot of concentration and micro to use single lings to try to trip every single mine so they're on cooldown and can be killed by whatever. There's advantages to forcing your oppenent into a prolonged micro battle with a small set of burrow and forget Zoning tools.
I don't really understand the point of the WM nerf in light of getting tank synergy anyway. So you can burrow them closer to the tank, I guess that means they can trip when mutas fly over the tank and try to get kills. But the thing is, if that many mutas are on the tank it can be sniped and dead with some good muta micro anyway, unless you set the mines right on top of it so that they stay in the targeting zone, which if the WMs go off on the mutas, will mean a dead tank in any event. It's just shortsighted.
WM's to me are like dead man switches for your units. They die, and WM's go off, or worse, they die because WM's go off, but the end result is a lot of dead enemy units if you prepare properly.
Depending on the unit comp of the enemy, I'd rather WM's than tanks. 2 tanks for 3 WM, etc. Unit comps aren't just about what you can afford if you're allowed to bank and macro up and create a powerful 1-shot army. They're also about sustainable force creation under the strain of constant attack.
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only giving ur opinion about what is the cause is not as effective as to say what is not the problem.
since everyone is saying something else.
0) terran to weak in general (blizzard) --> buff random units (medivac, mines)
1) terran weak late game (1a muta clouds, 1b creep, 1c mass bling)
2) maps in zerg favor
3) terran to strong with raven --> buff anti raven units
4) i know for sure there is a problem, blizzard proposed changes doesnt adress it but i have no idea how to fix it either
5) lack of useful gas units for terran
6) tanks not viable anymore
7) etc
actually u would need a list of what exactly the problem is or rather a list of WHAT IS NOT THE PROBLEM.
everytime u hear someone making a suggestion there are coming up serveral ppl to say 'this is not the problem'.
if u vote on the stuff that shouldnt be fixed then this should lead to a way making less mistakes.
actually the current 'proposed changes' also try to adress this issue. "hey ppl, how about these changes?" - "they suck, make some other" <-- this will go on and on if blizzard doesnt put more effort into it.
like a strategic way to find out what is not the problem and what could be the problem.
as example for me
problem:
is terran late game on big (!) maps and also the ineffectiveness of high gas tier3 units (like bcs --> WAAY to easy to counter in general / and also tank, thors --> big map no mobility) or the problems of dealing with high gas unit like raven --> no garantueed hsm damage since way to easy to dodge
possible solution:
buff tier3 (high gas) units in a way that mainly effects the late game --> like an upgrade for mobility or another upgrade for some special effects or w/e will help
so if one can agree on what is the problem and what is not the problem THEN AND ONLY THEN it makes sense to put up suggestions for solutions.
what blizzard is doing now is more like 'hey yo, race appears to be weak because of tournament results, lets buff some random units, what do you think, great idea?"
and thats pretty poor imo
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On July 16 2014 02:58 Eliv wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2014 02:03 Mistakes wrote:ROOT.Iaguz: Maybe a slight one. I think for most of HotS up until the last 6 months, Zerg was the harder race to play, but they've trained themselves to deal with most of our common timings and tightened up all aspects of Ling/Bane/Muta style play (nerfs to widow mines and hellbats surely didn't hurt, of course). Add in favorable maps and of course Zerg appears to have an edge, and now it's up to Terrans to tighten up their execution in turn. Pick it up, Terrans. =P In all seriousness, I love this answer. "Pick it up, Terrans. =P" It's kinda funny nobody said that when zergs were dealing with pre nerf widow mines and hellbats.
That's because of the double agenda of Zerg players; I think they're going to take over the world.. :-S
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Instead of marines to protect mines, just clump 4+ together. If they start using ling runbys to reset WM, one tank sitting on top of the WM creates a zone that only a concerted attack can defeat. It also steals map control.
Doing this is pretty bad if he doesn't engage with Mutalisks only. There is a reason why terrans try to split up their Mines when they engage even though it's quite challenging.
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On July 16 2014 02:58 Eliv wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2014 02:03 Mistakes wrote:ROOT.Iaguz: Maybe a slight one. I think for most of HotS up until the last 6 months, Zerg was the harder race to play, but they've trained themselves to deal with most of our common timings and tightened up all aspects of Ling/Bane/Muta style play (nerfs to widow mines and hellbats surely didn't hurt, of course). Add in favorable maps and of course Zerg appears to have an edge, and now it's up to Terrans to tighten up their execution in turn. Pick it up, Terrans. =P In all seriousness, I love this answer. "Pick it up, Terrans. =P" It's kinda funny nobody said that when zergs were dealing with pre nerf widow mines and hellbats.
After a shitty time at the very start of WoL zergs been spoiled by the nerf/buff cannon... Remember when the infestor got buffs to make it good against absolutely everything, nice game design there... and the queens buff against every early game pressure... and evoless spores to shut down flying and invisible things easily. Together you get the ~no units 3 base saturation situation we've hit now.
Thing is, pro-zergs were picking it up. It was only really innovation who was making the mines look broken. A lot of the time it was casual microless A moves of blobs of zerg that were suffering (which they should!). I liked it back then, it felt equally desperate on both sides.
On July 16 2014 17:38 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Instead of marines to protect mines, just clump 4+ together. If they start using ling runbys to reset WM, one tank sitting on top of the WM creates a zone that only a concerted attack can defeat. It also steals map control. Doing this is pretty bad if he doesn't engage with Mutalisks only. There is a reason why terrans try to split up their Mines when they engage even though it's quite challenging.
You can still have a tank in the minefield without clumping the mines. It's very effective vs the ling triggering mines move. It's just tricky to fit tank+wm into a smooth build.
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When people play at 100% Terran is the best. Seriously, i'm a terran player, stop buffing em. I kill everyone in masters and can'
t get into GM. These changes make it like people actually need mech. Rines an Mar's rape evrything ever. Maybe not Ultras if you don't micro but ffs, that's like 30 minutes inta the game. I know you want to stick to broodwar stats but the game is now way easier to micro instead of mass macro. Toss the protoss a carrot this time and zerg too, massing banelings is boring as hell.
User was warned for this post
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grats you res'd a buff proposal from july the 1 post even makes it obvious your a troll :l
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EPT
