EPTTerran's Lategame problem vs Zerg only relies on the amount of banelings. wm is not allowed to reduce the problem (terrible unit, better remove it in LotV). Makes Tanks stronger!
Pro Opinions: Proposed Terran Buffs - Page 2
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
Dingodile
4131 Posts
Terran's Lategame problem vs Zerg only relies on the amount of banelings. wm is not allowed to reduce the problem (terrible unit, better remove it in LotV). Makes Tanks stronger! | ||
|
Twine
France246 Posts
| ||
|
DomeGetta
480 Posts
Honestly Nerchio will never in his life say something that would get zerg nerfed or terran buffed so it was pretty useless involving him. Players saying "the match-up is pretty balanced as a whole" I can't even tell if they are trolling. Tvz - 8 gas zerg can get as many banelings as you have marines and a big muta cloud - like Snute said if you have half a brain don't engage off creep and you cant lose - transition to Ultra/Infestor if you want to not micro at all. Tvp - Infinite build order wins for Protoss using proxy + overpowered late game tempest 3/3/3 colo / templar / archon - someone please site me a game where a Terran (not Taeja vs a foreigner please) has won from that situation (4 base Protoss vs 4 base Terran). | ||
|
avilo
United States4100 Posts
Really all that needs to happen guys is this: 1) Revert widow mine in TvZ for bio. This gives Terran a splash damage unit again...that forces Zerg to micro as well instead of just 1A mass banes/mutas. Very simple change, Zergs will complain of course because they don't want to have to micro again. This change barely affects mech because mech TvZ does not use a lot of mines in the first place (mines are terrible with mech). 2) Buff the siege tank in TvP so that it actually creates positional play and tanks can be cost effective vs warp gate/immortals. Bio does not scale at all into late game versus area of effect. If the tank is returned to it's former glory we could see Terrans actually building units out of the factory in this match-up, whether that is pure mech, or going bio and then incorporating siege tanks later in the game for splash damage....just like Protoss has splash damage. 3) Nerf the Tempest to 6-8 supply. This goes along the same lines of empowring more siege tank play in TvP, and discouraging the use of just simply massing pure tempests/carriers vs mech Terran. 4) Remove/severely nerf the nexus cannon for TvP early game so that Terran has more options, such as cloak banshee builds that are brought back into play. As well as remove/nerf some of Protoss's options like DT shrine, revert oracle speed...they have too many all-ins, over 20 literally that include various forms of pure gateway allins from wings of liberty, and new ones with proxied buildlings/blink. The problem with TvP right now is early game and late game. They coincide. Terran always gets handicapped in the first 10-12 minutes while being unable to do anything via build order vs the nexus cannon which let's Protoss be greedy, Protoss doesn't have to build 400-600 gas worth of sentries because of the nexus cannon..which is very wrong and tilts the early game towards Protoss too much, which then snowballs into lategame making Protoss lategame hit 1-2 minutes earlier than it did in Wings...which is why you see the issues you do nowadays. 5) Ravens are not an issue - please pros/noobs alike stop trying to circle jerk more Terran nerfs. There is already a counter to mass viking/raven lategame from Zerg called mass vipers. I'm talking about 10+ vipers with infestors for fungals, which is the equivalent of viking/raven but no Zerg does this yet. The answer is already there, it's just not practiced at all. Please, no more Terran nerfing, not to mention the raven is the only lategame unit Terran has right now compared to Z/P tier3. | ||
|
Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
I'm a bit confused about the "medivacs should pick up sieged tanks", while it adds nice micro, what major issue does it really help against? | ||
|
Figgy
Canada1788 Posts
| ||
|
Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
Ask full time caster, they are much less biased already. | ||
|
Dingodile
4131 Posts
On July 06 2014 07:12 DomeGetta wrote: Players saying "the match-up is pretty balanced as a whole" I can't even tell if they are trolling. A big problem is that many dont think about design problems! I agree too that all matchups are very well balanced, but from design it hurts my brain pretty hard. | ||
|
JessicaSc2
Poland123 Posts
| ||
|
Fission
Canada1184 Posts
| ||
|
Vasoline73
United States7745 Posts
| ||
|
myRZeth
Germany1047 Posts
On July 06 2014 07:24 Vasoline73 wrote: Sad to see no PL/GSL koreans but I understand it's not as easy to get their feedback and that often their opinions are quite short. we tried, but eventually it didn t work out in time | ||
|
Corazon
United States3230 Posts
On July 06 2014 07:13 avilo wrote: A lot of these pros really have no idea how to balance an RTS, some changes too specific and intricate, others are way off of course and biased because they only play 1 race. Really all that needs to happen guys is this: 1) Revert widow mine in TvZ for bio. This gives Terran a splash damage unit again...that forces Zerg to micro as well instead of just 1A mass banes/mutas. Very simple change, Zergs will complain of course because they don't want to have to micro again. This change barely affects mech because mech TvZ does not use a lot of mines in the first place (mines are terrible with mech). 2) Buff the siege tank in TvP so that it actually creates positional play and tanks can be cost effective vs warp gate/immortals. Bio does not scale at all into late game versus area of effect. If the tank is returned to it's former glory we could see Terrans actually building units out of the factory in this match-up, whether that is pure mech, or going bio and then incorporating siege tanks later in the game for splash damage....just like Protoss has splash damage. 3) Nerf the Tempest to 6-8 supply. This goes along the same lines of empowring more siege tank play in TvP, and discouraging the use of just simply massing pure tempests/carriers vs mech Terran. 4) Remove/severely nerf the nexus cannon for TvP early game so that Terran has more options, such as cloak banshee builds that are brought back into play. As well as remove/nerf some of Protoss's options like DT shrine, revert oracle speed...they have too many all-ins, over 20 literally that include various forms of pure gateway allins from wings of liberty, and new ones with proxied buildlings/blink. The problem with TvP right now is early game and late game. They coincide. Terran always gets handicapped in the first 10-12 minutes while being unable to do anything via build order vs the nexus cannon which let's Protoss be greedy, Protoss doesn't have to build 400-600 gas worth of sentries because of the nexus cannon..which is very wrong and tilts the early game towards Protoss too much, which then snowballs into lategame making Protoss lategame hit 1-2 minutes earlier than it did in Wings...which is why you see the issues you do nowadays. 5) Ravens are not an issue - please pros/noobs alike stop trying to circle jerk more Terran nerfs. There is already a counter to mass viking/raven lategame from Zerg called mass vipers. I'm talking about 10+ vipers with infestors for fungals, which is the equivalent of viking/raven but no Zerg does this yet. The answer is already there, it's just not practiced at all. Please, no more Terran nerfing, not to mention the raven is the only lategame unit Terran has right now compared to Z/P tier3. Bio is good. You should try it sometime. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13378 Posts
On July 06 2014 07:34 myRZeth wrote: we tried, but eventually it didn t work out in time We are slowly making more and more contacts. Unfortunately Nathanias who helps us contact EU Koreans is busy with WCS this weekend, so we didn't get in touch with him to allow him to focus on WCS AM. We don't have many proleague/GSL contacts. Hopefully, we can slowly build more access to them. Also, we will put much more effort into speaking to these pros when hard numbers are released, and we update our article. | ||
|
pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On July 06 2014 06:54 Hider wrote: No. It's way too complicated and not an effective change either. Look at it this way: Why would you make a Zerg-specific fix to the Thor when the Thor is already only really used in that matchup anyway? You can just make a more general buff Thor that strenghtens vs all races. For instance, a small increase in splash, a damage buff, a range buff or a movement speed buff etc. There are tons of more simple fixes here, and I believe Snutes suggestions in general are way way too overcomplicated. I should have been a lot clearer. I like how creative the idea is, and as far as band aid solutions go, it would at least steer the game away from the high risk playstyle of Medivacs. I can see how, following the first half of my post, it seems like I think this would fix everything. I dunno, I think it might be neat to have more than 6 useful units per MU. I do want Seeker Missile to get slammed with the nerf bat, though. No tier 2.5+ caster should have a spell that's that easy to use AND that potentially devastating. Re: Avilo's #4, I can't believe this isn't discussed more often, why the hell do Oracles get to attack on the move? Seriously, they're more versatile than Banshees and take less control to use properly? They should have to stop to attack like any other unit. | ||
|
Extenz
Italy822 Posts
On July 06 2014 07:44 pure.Wasted wrote: Re: Avilo's #4, I can't believe this isn't discussed more often, why the hell do Oracles get to attack on the move? Seriously, they're more versatile than Banshees and take less control to use properly? They should have to stop to attack like any other unit. Oracles don't attack on the move, you have to micro them, and they are not easy to use cause they are squishy and have a very low range | ||
|
Hider
Denmark9336 Posts
I think the extra shield damage and ignore hardened shields ideas sound like *sspulls and change the game more than its acceptable. Well removal of hardned shield does as it affects Roaches vs Immortals as well + Maurauder vs Immortals, but Tank bonus vs shield buffs tanks vs protoss which could shake up the meta. But isn't that exactly what we want? Oracles don't attack on the move, you have to micro them, and they are not easy to use cause they are squishy and have a very low range Oracles have probably the worst control in the game. BW succesed with its air units because all of them were extremely reponsive but none of them were extremely OP when unmicroed. Unforuntatley, Blizzard didn't follow that concept with the Oracle which is the prototype of what not to do. | ||
|
pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On July 06 2014 07:48 Extenz wrote: Oracles don't attack on the move, you have to micro them, and they are not easy to use cause they are squishy and have a very low range Wow, they move so fast in the hands of pros, I legitimately thought they attack on the move. Their skill ceiling is definitely higher than I thought it was. Thanks for clearing that up. | ||
|
avilo
United States4100 Posts
In the current metagame, bio is absolutely terrible if you play a really good defensive Zerg that knows to accumulate mass mutas and then mass banelings (30+ banes). Mech is a stronger lategame army than bio, and since a Zerg is going to basically force you to lategame...they just need to revert the mine nerf so bio has splash damage involved again. | ||
|
Twine
France246 Posts
On July 06 2014 07:48 Extenz wrote: Oracles don't attack on the move, you have to micro them, and they are not easy to use cause they are squishy and have a very low range You must be trolling... I hope so at least | ||
| ||
