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Terran Buffs - Balance Testing Soon - July 1 - Page 9

Forum Index > SC2 General
1211 CommentsPost a Reply
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Razbu
Profile Joined November 2011
Croatia10 Posts
July 01 2014 18:12 GMT
#161
So basicly lets make medivacs more annoing and mine kill more friendly units. Gj mr. Kim sometimes i wonder if you even play this game. Voted no for both horrible ideas so sad right now
STAND DOWN CAPTAIN !!!!!!!!!!
Pontius Pirate
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
United States1557 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-01 18:14:59
July 01 2014 18:13 GMT
#162
What I'd like to see is a 4th level of splash damage added to the center that does somewhere between the primary target's damage and the previous highest level of splash. My thoughts are 60 damage within 1 cell, and then 40 between 1 and 1.25, 20 between 1.25 and 1.5, and 10 between 1.5 and 1.75.

This would make them no better against lings and blings, which are already as vulnerable as they should be to widow mines, but they'd absolutely slaughter mutas, if sufficiently clumped. As mutas are probably the main issue terran has been having with zerg, this seems like a good target for the patch. It would also slightly improve them versus blink stalker attacks, and sometimes in blowing through waves of zealots. The bonus of this is that it greatly rewards skillful defusing of mines by a zerg player even more, since a successful mine drag can one-shot marines.

An additional change that would further target mutas, while not harming zerglings and banelings any more than the current would be to change the mechanic of the primary target to doing 125 damage within a range of .5, rather than to an individual target. That way, it greatly punishes tight stacking of air units, primarily mutas, but also serves as a great lure for vikings in TvT.
"I had to close the door so my parents wouldn't judge me." - ZombieGrub during the ShitfaceTradeTV stream
Redrot
Profile Blog Joined September 2012
United States446 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-01 18:15:47
July 01 2014 18:14 GMT
#163
I think reverting mines to the way they were before or at least making the splash decrease a little less weak would be fine. But this could make for some interesting stuff too. It would still make mines not op vs clumped mutas but still increase their efficiency vs large armies of zealots or lings! edit: just realized splash would suck though, just remove ff for gods sake.

As for the medivac buff....wtf
I root for CJ because their fb posts are hilarious
InExcelsis
Profile Joined May 2013
United States38 Posts
July 01 2014 18:14 GMT
#164
On July 02 2014 02:10 SC2Toastie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2014 02:09 Karpfen wrote:
Yes to both. You'd have to be a hypocritical fuck not to vote yes to both.

Yes to changes, no to these. I voted no.

Agree completely medivacs are some of the few terran units that are actually good they need to buff units that actually need buffing not just over buff one unit
Paljas
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6926 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-01 18:15:07
July 01 2014 18:14 GMT
#165
pls no medivac buff

wm buff would probably totally rip templar openings in PvT, which would be unfourtate.
otherwise, it could be a good idea.

also, just nerf the fuck out of the msc already, move time warp to mothership and nerf energy/cost/range
also, increase gas cost on oracle, that shit is supposed to be expensive
TL+ Member
Razac
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands101 Posts
July 01 2014 18:14 GMT
#166
I want ghosts to be usable more again. Maybe a less OP version of the old snipe? And then also I want to be able to use tanks instead of gamble mines.
www.twitch.tv/razac_
Strelok
Profile Joined January 2006
Ukraine320 Posts
July 01 2014 18:15 GMT
#167
Even as a terran player absolutely disagree with these changes. If you want to help terran - make work done on swarm hosts, mutas, protoss air or blink, not on terran midgame. Terran is absolutely okay there. Terran has huge problems late game and with protoss allins.
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19263 Posts
July 01 2014 18:15 GMT
#168
On July 02 2014 02:15 fenrysk wrote:
this is just my nostalgia talking, and I'm not really being serious...
but please un-nerf snipe.

Game hasn't been the same since. How about make ghost awesome again?
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
Pontius Pirate
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
United States1557 Posts
July 01 2014 18:16 GMT
#169
On July 02 2014 03:14 Razac wrote:
I want ghosts to be usable more again. Maybe a less OP version of the old snipe? And then also I want to be able to use tanks instead of gamble mines.

Simply disabling snipe on massive units would probably be sufficient. Tanks might need some more thorough changes to the game itself to be as good as people want them to be, but allowing a medivac to instantly unsiege a tank and pick it up would be a good start to their survivability in high level games.
"I had to close the door so my parents wouldn't judge me." - ZombieGrub during the ShitfaceTradeTV stream
Ctone23
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States1839 Posts
July 01 2014 18:17 GMT
#170
On July 02 2014 03:15 BisuDagger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2014 02:15 fenrysk wrote:
this is just my nostalgia talking, and I'm not really being serious...
but please un-nerf snipe.

Game hasn't been the same since. How about make ghost awesome again?



No way then 1base Ghost OP
TL+ Member
Odious_Repeater
Profile Joined July 2011
Germany32 Posts
July 01 2014 18:18 GMT
#171
So disappointed that Blizzard always seem to be catering to the existing meta exclusively.

"Let's encourage people to play like they already are, just making it a bit more powerful."

It's not illogical, just boring. Emergence is all but gone from the game. Nobody's doing anything fun any more.

The Reaper, the Ghost, the Siege Tank, the BC... such wasted potential in my opinion.
Idra is the Mel Gibson of E-sports
Roswell
Profile Joined November 2013
United States250 Posts
July 01 2014 18:18 GMT
#172
Maps get bigger and terrans get weaker gee i wonder why. Make maps smaller and tighter (without overdoing it)
"You are the bravest boy I have ever met"
ThomasjServo
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
15244 Posts
July 01 2014 18:19 GMT
#173
On July 02 2014 03:15 BisuDagger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2014 02:15 fenrysk wrote:
this is just my nostalgia talking, and I'm not really being serious...
but please un-nerf snipe.

Game hasn't been the same since. How about make ghost awesome again?

I can't live through Mvp v. Nestea again.
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
July 01 2014 18:20 GMT
#174
Ok, these changes are pretty bad. Changing the WM needs to help deal with a) Blink stalkers, b) immortal mutas, c) mass-banelings. Reverting the WM changes might still not be sufficient, and DK seems to be talking about a weakened version.

Medivac changes look like just a red herring.

How about the community comes together and asks for opinions from players and casters as to what might be a viable way to buff terran (or to nerf both zerg, muta, and protoss, oracle/msc), so that we have a larger number of people working on the solution. DK has taken such feedback into account before, so having a proper feedback thread would probably have an impact on the direction the game will take.

One thing though, this time we need to actually ask terran players as well...
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Feisty
Profile Joined December 2013
Vatican City State35 Posts
July 01 2014 18:21 GMT
#175
"We’re currently considering a slight increase to the splash radius of Widow Mines, which we believe could be a good direction to explore."
In other words the nerf to widow mines was way to severe and combined with the current map pool completely broke the balance of tvz until the recent hellbat patch. While their at it they could revert the oracle buff that came with the mine nerf and admit that patch 2.0.12 was a complete failure concerning terran.
Polt why so God
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
July 01 2014 18:22 GMT
#176
2. In terms of recent tournament wins, the three races are performing quite evenly.

TaeJa confirmed a race all by himself

Don't think the medivac change is good but the widow mine one is definitely worth going for.
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
SC2Toastie
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
Netherlands5725 Posts
July 01 2014 18:22 GMT
#177
On July 02 2014 03:19 ThomasjServo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2014 03:15 BisuDagger wrote:
On July 02 2014 02:15 fenrysk wrote:
this is just my nostalgia talking, and I'm not really being serious...
but please un-nerf snipe.

Game hasn't been the same since. How about make ghost awesome again?

I can't live through Mvp v. Nestea again.

That was more of Nestea being tired and doing something incredibly stupid than the Ghost being op...
Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!
forsooth
Profile Joined February 2011
United States3648 Posts
July 01 2014 18:22 GMT
#178
Definitely don't buff medivacs, they're already really good. Widow mine buff might be okay.
Destructicon
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
4713 Posts
July 01 2014 18:24 GMT
#179
The buffs I'll suggest will be.
WM, buff damage from 40-20-10 to 40-30-20 directly or. Change WM burrow upgrade to also increase the damage by that amount as well as to trigger immediately if ordered to target fire by a player. Adds the benefit of being more micro able and giving them some of their old power back. Drawback could be that it makes the upgrade too strong and still leaves the mid game terran too weak. In that case the base damage of the mine should be increased while upgrade only adds the faster target fire.

Stim, I'd reduce the research time from 170 to 140 seconds. Reason is rather simple, the nerf was done when maps where a lot smaller and made some 2 base death pushes just impossible to hold. This is no longer the case and its now hurting terran in not being able to put on pressure earlier on the bigger maps.

Medivacs. I'd look again at the medivac upgrade, I'd change it to not only make it drop units faster, but to also allow medivacs to pick up and drop a single sieged tank. This upgrade would help bio but also maybe marine, tank based styles.
However if the picking up sieged tanks is too strong we can forgo that and just look at another buff. I don't think touching medivac speed again would be good.
WriterNever give up, never surrender! https://www.youtube.com/user/DestructiconSC
Terence Chill
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany112 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-01 18:25:08
July 01 2014 18:24 GMT
#180
On July 02 2014 03:09 SC2Toastie wrote:
Posted this. Opinions?
+ Show Spoiler +
Dear Blizzard, Dayvie,

First and foremost, I want to compliment you on the calm responses you are offering. The community is starting to get frustrated and angry, complaining and not being constructive. Everybody should have more respect for what you are doing behind the scenes. Thanks for that.

As for changes you are offering, I'm going to offer my point of view. I'll offer my opinion on what direction you should go with balance, to get -what I personally think- a better game in the end. I'll be as clear and nuanced as I can, so please hear me out.

Your current plans involve the Medivac and the Widow Mine. Let me first explain why I don't like those options.

Medivac
Whilst the medivac harass has lost a great deal of it's power, the way to strenghten the medivac again does not have to involve buffing the medivac per se. I'll go deeper into that with my own solutions.
You have to be very careful with the medivac.
The speedboost speed gives lower time to react, and while that is a good distinguisher in skill between the professional and the amateur level, you shouldn't go overboard. Medivacs are pretty mobile and this short burst in speed is giving a very subtle choice to the Terran. If you make it too long, Medivacs become too mobile and force heavier turtling from Protoss and Zerg.
Increasing the unload speed, whilst a very interesting option indeed, frightens me even more. Firstly, Hellbat/Hellion drops would get more lethal instantly, because the units drop fast, thus closer, which makes their splashes overlap. Secondly because the bio dump strategies, involving 4 medivacs to dump so many units on (usually stalkers) defending forces that you overwhelm them. This might encourage the doomdrops more, which is something we shouldn't want in the game. Doomdrops ignore the contest for power between both players by going for a coinflip, either you win, or you lose. There's no interesting dynamic going on there.

Widow Mines
While reverting the mine buff might be better for the statistics of the game, Widow Mines are not a good unit to promote a mass of. This is because Widow Mines are hardly micro-able. They are very set and forget and very unreliable in their damage. They might blow up on 20 banelings, but they might just as well kill 30 marines. This is usually determined by luck more than player skill, and while both players can influence the blasts, in large engagements, it's simply too hard.

The current 'problems' I would target
The biggest general problem Terran seems to have in the current metagame is that Terran is forced into and extended midgame. A lot of the current problems in the game come from this, in my opinion.
When the game gets on three stable bases, Protoss will add a second AOE to their army, they will add extra gateways, a Dark Shrine, an extra Robo, and eventually will make a Tempest Transition. Zerg can add Ultralisk and Infestors or even go to the skies and challenge Terran over there. Terran, meanwhile, is stuck making more marines, more marauders, more medivacs and some support units whose sole purpose is to soften the hardcounter of the immense Tech advantage P and Z can get.
Terran does not have a lategame transition. Verse Protoss, you can add more Ghost and Vikings, but eventually, Tempest outclass you. Verses Zerg, you'll get stuck making MMM, you'll get overrun and you die.

There's multiple problems coming with this, the biggest one to notice is that both Protoss and Zerg are encouraged to draw out the game and turtle. Why wouldn't they? The longer they wait, the better their army becomes, and if they use their defenders advantage well enough, they'll pretty much be given the game. Whilst the Protoss and Zerg armies become much more powerful with time/tech, the Terran army starts to lag behind and becomes too weak to compete.

The fix?
Terran needs to be more dangerous in the lategame. How to accomplish this? I'll try to offer some options, but I won't claim those are the solution.

What happens if Terran becomes more threatening in the lategame? Protoss and Zerg will be forced to take initiative, scout actively and go on the offense before their tech advantage kicks in. If Terran can build a sufficiently powerful army that can secure bases beyond the fourth and use the gas that gets banked up, Protoss and Zerg won't be as comfortable turtling. This is where the medivac 'buff' comes in. By forcing Protoss and Zerg to take initiative, to take the map and to go on the offense, you open up their bases to Medivac harassment, which will now be more effective because the main army is not right there.

How?
There's a good couple of ways to go with this. Terran has a lot of units/options with relatively untapped potential. I will try to come up with a couple of good options to choose from.
---Ghosts
The Ghost is in a good place in TvP. In TvZ, however, it is useless. Ever since the (IMO overboard) snipe nerf, there's no use for the Ghost in the matchup with Zerg, because it has nothing to do. While I am personally fine with the Ghost not being too useful in this matchup, some people have outed words on partially reverting the snipe buff, making Snipe an ability with for example 50 damage (35 vs Massive).
---Banshees
Banshees are a very niche unit. Their only use is early game harassment with the Cloak spell. This makes the Banshee the first candidate for an increase in utility heading into the lategame. Some things I came up with:
A. A fusion core upgrade (or techlab upgrade unlocked by fusion core) that gives the Banshee a new kind of plating, offering it spell immunity or increased health. Making Banshees less vulnerable to Psionic Storm, Feedback, Fungal Growth, and other AOE respectively Static Defense and allowing them to participate as part of the army that also has a map control role (kinda like 2/3 Oracles can do for Protoss).
B. A secondary Weaponry mode (akin to the Thor) that does not overkill en masse (one of the bigger reasons Banshees can't work in an army, their projectiles travel too long) that is less vulnerable to heavy armor (Like Ultralisks). This makes banshees more powerful within an army.
---Ravens
This is careful area, because the raven - Swarm Host dynamic in TvZ is something to be very leary off. Ravens are useless in TvP, pretty much solely because of Feedback, If anything could be changed in that department, that would be great for Terran. I don't see any buff of the Raven against Zerg as warranted.
---Vikings
Vikings are excellently designed units in their Anti Air role, combined with turrets, marines and thors, their range offers excellent zoning abilities.
I would like to see the vikings more useful on the ground. This can happen by taking one or combining some of the following: better armor on the ground, lose the Armored tag on the ground, Faster transformation, Higher damage, (for Mech TvP, higher attack speed, lower damage/shot, remove armored tag - effective vs Immortals).
---Thors
The Thor is too immobile, too clunky, takes too long to engage a target, is bad in it's anti Air role and very terrible against lower tier units. All in all, the Thor is probably a poor, expensive, resilient version of the marine. It can do anything, but it's pretty bad at what it can do. The Thor lacks a purpose in the Terran arsenal and that is something we should aim to fix.
What do we want the Thor to become? I have no idea. There is potential here, but for now, the Thors biggest flaw is having no defined role.
---Battlecruisers
Seriously. The most unscary unit in the game. Battlecruisers suck. Bigtime. They are expensive, slow to build, require expensive infrastructure, two upgrades to be fully operational, very slow moving, and very, very easy to counter. Abduct, Neural (lol), Corruptors, Feedback, Void rays, Tempest, Stalkers, Psionic Storm, Archons are all very strong against Battlecruisers.
BCs are soo easy to hardcounter, and the time you spend from starting the fusion core and additional startports until the time they arrive at the Protoss base is actually enough from Protoss to have build sufficient infrastructure and Tempest to 1shot said 400/300 units.
The battlecruisers needs to be A LOT stronger in what it does best. Taking and winning a head on engagement
Firstly, some neutralizer to Abduct and Tempest. These two alone are enough to make Battlecruisers a terrible decision in any game. Abduct could be worked around with by allowing Ghost into the TvZ lategame, but Tempest would require a change in some way. The difference in range between BC, Viking and Tempest is too big to play a zoning game with.
Secondly, Battlecruisers should be able to move while firing. Seriously. Look at it. It's a giant capital ship with individually moving cannons attached to it. Why can't it fly and shoot at the same time!?
---Siege Tanks
Siege Tanks lack their scary power they once had. When I think of the Siege Tank, I think of a very powerful area control unit. You'd have to be really damn sure when you move into siege tank range, because they'll do hefty damage.
This is however not the case. Siege Tank damage is horrific. I'd prefer much higher damage and Aoe in trade of a higher attack cooldown. Make those shells hurt!

These were some of the of the possible suggestions I had that would allow Terran to transition into the lategame. Apply a couple of these suggestions with care, and we might end up with a much more dynamic game!
Keep in mind the balance of Mech in TvZ, because turtlemech on certain maps is nigh impossible to break! Also remember that enabling the Factory/Starport lanes viable tech transitions gives a massive influx in the amount of different strategies Terran can employ come the midgame. This will, IMO, make the game more diverse and strategical!


Best of luck!



i am worried their heads will explode when they read this
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