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Terran Buffs - Balance Testing Soon - July 1 - Page 11

Forum Index > SC2 General
1211 CommentsPost a Reply
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effecto
Profile Joined February 2011
France142 Posts
July 01 2014 18:40 GMT
#201
DK wants to solve issue by adding problems! Me no wanna that
Design - eddytritten.com
boxerfred
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Germany8360 Posts
July 01 2014 18:40 GMT
#202
On July 02 2014 03:05 Topin wrote:
i hate these changes... *sigh*

WM is core in TvP?no way man, no way, its used yes but is not a core unit :/

Show me one TvP that is played without a MSC (proxy gates exluced) and shut up.
SC2Toastie
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
Netherlands5725 Posts
July 01 2014 18:41 GMT
#203
On July 02 2014 03:32 Tobblish wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2014 03:09 SC2Toastie wrote:
Posted this. Opinions?
+ Show Spoiler +
Dear Blizzard, Dayvie,

First and foremost, I want to compliment you on the calm responses you are offering. The community is starting to get frustrated and angry, complaining and not being constructive. Everybody should have more respect for what you are doing behind the scenes. Thanks for that.

As for changes you are offering, I'm going to offer my point of view. I'll offer my opinion on what direction you should go with balance, to get -what I personally think- a better game in the end. I'll be as clear and nuanced as I can, so please hear me out.

Your current plans involve the Medivac and the Widow Mine. Let me first explain why I don't like those options.

Medivac
Whilst the medivac harass has lost a great deal of it's power, the way to strenghten the medivac again does not have to involve buffing the medivac per se. I'll go deeper into that with my own solutions.
You have to be very careful with the medivac.
The speedboost speed gives lower time to react, and while that is a good distinguisher in skill between the professional and the amateur level, you shouldn't go overboard. Medivacs are pretty mobile and this short burst in speed is giving a very subtle choice to the Terran. If you make it too long, Medivacs become too mobile and force heavier turtling from Protoss and Zerg.
Increasing the unload speed, whilst a very interesting option indeed, frightens me even more. Firstly, Hellbat/Hellion drops would get more lethal instantly, because the units drop fast, thus closer, which makes their splashes overlap. Secondly because the bio dump strategies, involving 4 medivacs to dump so many units on (usually stalkers) defending forces that you overwhelm them. This might encourage the doomdrops more, which is something we shouldn't want in the game. Doomdrops ignore the contest for power between both players by going for a coinflip, either you win, or you lose. There's no interesting dynamic going on there.

Widow Mines
While reverting the mine buff might be better for the statistics of the game, Widow Mines are not a good unit to promote a mass of. This is because Widow Mines are hardly micro-able. They are very set and forget and very unreliable in their damage. They might blow up on 20 banelings, but they might just as well kill 30 marines. This is usually determined by luck more than player skill, and while both players can influence the blasts, in large engagements, it's simply too hard.

The current 'problems' I would target
The biggest general problem Terran seems to have in the current metagame is that Terran is forced into and extended midgame. A lot of the current problems in the game come from this, in my opinion.
When the game gets on three stable bases, Protoss will add a second AOE to their army, they will add extra gateways, a Dark Shrine, an extra Robo, and eventually will make a Tempest Transition. Zerg can add Ultralisk and Infestors or even go to the skies and challenge Terran over there. Terran, meanwhile, is stuck making more marines, more marauders, more medivacs and some support units whose sole purpose is to soften the hardcounter of the immense Tech advantage P and Z can get.
Terran does not have a lategame transition. Verse Protoss, you can add more Ghost and Vikings, but eventually, Tempest outclass you. Verses Zerg, you'll get stuck making MMM, you'll get overrun and you die.

There's multiple problems coming with this, the biggest one to notice is that both Protoss and Zerg are encouraged to draw out the game and turtle. Why wouldn't they? The longer they wait, the better their army becomes, and if they use their defenders advantage well enough, they'll pretty much be given the game. Whilst the Protoss and Zerg armies become much more powerful with time/tech, the Terran army starts to lag behind and becomes too weak to compete.

The fix?
Terran needs to be more dangerous in the lategame. How to accomplish this? I'll try to offer some options, but I won't claim those are the solution.

What happens if Terran becomes more threatening in the lategame? Protoss and Zerg will be forced to take initiative, scout actively and go on the offense before their tech advantage kicks in. If Terran can build a sufficiently powerful army that can secure bases beyond the fourth and use the gas that gets banked up, Protoss and Zerg won't be as comfortable turtling. This is where the medivac 'buff' comes in. By forcing Protoss and Zerg to take initiative, to take the map and to go on the offense, you open up their bases to Medivac harassment, which will now be more effective because the main army is not right there.

How?
There's a good couple of ways to go with this. Terran has a lot of units/options with relatively untapped potential. I will try to come up with a couple of good options to choose from.
---Ghosts
The Ghost is in a good place in TvP. In TvZ, however, it is useless. Ever since the (IMO overboard) snipe nerf, there's no use for the Ghost in the matchup with Zerg, because it has nothing to do. While I am personally fine with the Ghost not being too useful in this matchup, some people have outed words on partially reverting the snipe buff, making Snipe an ability with for example 50 damage (35 vs Massive).
---Banshees
Banshees are a very niche unit. Their only use is early game harassment with the Cloak spell. This makes the Banshee the first candidate for an increase in utility heading into the lategame. Some things I came up with:
A. A fusion core upgrade (or techlab upgrade unlocked by fusion core) that gives the Banshee a new kind of plating, offering it spell immunity or increased health. Making Banshees less vulnerable to Psionic Storm, Feedback, Fungal Growth, and other AOE respectively Static Defense and allowing them to participate as part of the army that also has a map control role (kinda like 2/3 Oracles can do for Protoss).
B. A secondary Weaponry mode (akin to the Thor) that does not overkill en masse (one of the bigger reasons Banshees can't work in an army, their projectiles travel too long) that is less vulnerable to heavy armor (Like Ultralisks). This makes banshees more powerful within an army.
---Ravens
This is careful area, because the raven - Swarm Host dynamic in TvZ is something to be very leary off. Ravens are useless in TvP, pretty much solely because of Feedback, If anything could be changed in that department, that would be great for Terran. I don't see any buff of the Raven against Zerg as warranted.
---Vikings
Vikings are excellently designed units in their Anti Air role, combined with turrets, marines and thors, their range offers excellent zoning abilities.
I would like to see the vikings more useful on the ground. This can happen by taking one or combining some of the following: better armor on the ground, lose the Armored tag on the ground, Faster transformation, Higher damage, (for Mech TvP, higher attack speed, lower damage/shot, remove armored tag - effective vs Immortals).
---Thors
The Thor is too immobile, too clunky, takes too long to engage a target, is bad in it's anti Air role and very terrible against lower tier units. All in all, the Thor is probably a poor, expensive, resilient version of the marine. It can do anything, but it's pretty bad at what it can do. The Thor lacks a purpose in the Terran arsenal and that is something we should aim to fix.
What do we want the Thor to become? I have no idea. There is potential here, but for now, the Thors biggest flaw is having no defined role.
---Battlecruisers
Seriously. The most unscary unit in the game. Battlecruisers suck. Bigtime. They are expensive, slow to build, require expensive infrastructure, two upgrades to be fully operational, very slow moving, and very, very easy to counter. Abduct, Neural (lol), Corruptors, Feedback, Void rays, Tempest, Stalkers, Psionic Storm, Archons are all very strong against Battlecruisers.
BCs are soo easy to hardcounter, and the time you spend from starting the fusion core and additional startports until the time they arrive at the Protoss base is actually enough from Protoss to have build sufficient infrastructure and Tempest to 1shot said 400/300 units.
The battlecruisers needs to be A LOT stronger in what it does best. Taking and winning a head on engagement
Firstly, some neutralizer to Abduct and Tempest. These two alone are enough to make Battlecruisers a terrible decision in any game. Abduct could be worked around with by allowing Ghost into the TvZ lategame, but Tempest would require a change in some way. The difference in range between BC, Viking and Tempest is too big to play a zoning game with.
Secondly, Battlecruisers should be able to move while firing. Seriously. Look at it. It's a giant capital ship with individually moving cannons attached to it. Why can't it fly and shoot at the same time!?
---Siege Tanks
Siege Tanks lack their scary power they once had. When I think of the Siege Tank, I think of a very powerful area control unit. You'd have to be really damn sure when you move into siege tank range, because they'll do hefty damage.
This is however not the case. Siege Tank damage is horrific. I'd prefer much higher damage and Aoe in trade of a higher attack cooldown. Make those shells hurt!

These were some of the of the possible suggestions I had that would allow Terran to transition into the lategame. Apply a couple of these suggestions with care, and we might end up with a much more dynamic game!
Keep in mind the balance of Mech in TvZ, because turtlemech on certain maps is nigh impossible to break! Also remember that enabling the Factory/Starport lanes viable tech transitions gives a massive influx in the amount of different strategies Terran can employ come the midgame. This will, IMO, make the game more diverse and strategical!


Best of luck!



If only the team was interested enough to read and understand the proposed changes you make.
SC2 would be wonderful.

Thank you. I fully understand it if it takes too much time though. I thought about TLDRing it, but that'd make anybody miss the point.
Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!
Jono7272
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom6330 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-01 18:42:08
July 01 2014 18:41 GMT
#204
On July 02 2014 03:37 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2014 02:15 Teoita wrote:
Revert some ghost nerfs plz


Big fat YES to this. Also would be nice if stim didnt take a zillion years.

Agreed, not sure why they're so averse to reverting that.

Pretty meh changes.
Innovation | Flash | Mvp | Byun | TY
eightym
Profile Joined May 2011
United States76 Posts
July 01 2014 18:42 GMT
#205
On July 02 2014 03:40 boxerfred wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2014 03:05 Topin wrote:
i hate these changes... *sigh*

WM is core in TvP?no way man, no way, its used yes but is not a core unit :/

Show me one TvP that is played without a MSC (proxy gates exluced) and shut up.


wat
Topin
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Peru10055 Posts
July 01 2014 18:42 GMT
#206
On July 02 2014 03:40 boxerfred wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2014 03:05 Topin wrote:
i hate these changes... *sigh*

WM is core in TvP?no way man, no way, its used yes but is not a core unit :/

Show me one TvP that is played without a MSC (proxy gates exluced) and shut up.

what? im talking about WM being a core unit for terran not about the MSC
i would define my style between a mix of ByuN, Maru and MKP
boxerfred
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Germany8360 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-01 18:44:06
July 01 2014 18:43 GMT
#207
On July 02 2014 03:42 Topin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2014 03:40 boxerfred wrote:
On July 02 2014 03:05 Topin wrote:
i hate these changes... *sigh*

WM is core in TvP?no way man, no way, its used yes but is not a core unit :/

Show me one TvP that is played without a MSC (proxy gates exluced) and shut up.

what? im talking about WM being a core unit for terran not about the MSC

My blunder, I somehow read MSC instead of WM. Dunno why, guess I'm tired. Sorry!
stuchiu
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
July 01 2014 18:44 GMT
#208
On July 02 2014 03:43 boxerfred wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2014 03:42 Topin wrote:
On July 02 2014 03:40 boxerfred wrote:
On July 02 2014 03:05 Topin wrote:
i hate these changes... *sigh*

WM is core in TvP?no way man, no way, its used yes but is not a core unit :/

Show me one TvP that is played without a MSC (proxy gates exluced) and shut up.

what? im talking about WM being a core unit for terran not about the MSC

My blunder somehow. :<


Its ok. MsC makes everyone blind with hatred.
Moderator
Topin
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Peru10055 Posts
July 01 2014 18:44 GMT
#209
On July 02 2014 03:43 boxerfred wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2014 03:42 Topin wrote:
On July 02 2014 03:40 boxerfred wrote:
On July 02 2014 03:05 Topin wrote:
i hate these changes... *sigh*

WM is core in TvP?no way man, no way, its used yes but is not a core unit :/

Show me one TvP that is played without a MSC (proxy gates exluced) and shut up.

what? im talking about WM being a core unit for terran not about the MSC

My blunder, I somehow read MSC instead of WM. Dunno why, guess I'm tried. Sorry!

no need to be so agressive though
i would define my style between a mix of ByuN, Maru and MKP
boxerfred
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Germany8360 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-01 18:45:27
July 01 2014 18:45 GMT
#210
On July 02 2014 03:44 Topin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2014 03:43 boxerfred wrote:
On July 02 2014 03:42 Topin wrote:
On July 02 2014 03:40 boxerfred wrote:
On July 02 2014 03:05 Topin wrote:
i hate these changes... *sigh*

WM is core in TvP?no way man, no way, its used yes but is not a core unit :/

Show me one TvP that is played without a MSC (proxy gates exluced) and shut up.

what? im talking about WM being a core unit for terran not about the MSC

My blunder, I somehow read MSC instead of WM. Dunno why, guess I'm tried. Sorry!

no need to be so agressive though

Assuming that I just read "MSC is no core unit in TvP" in a balance thread, I guess it's okay understandable. Because it would be a really stupid troll move to say that.
ThomasjServo
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
15244 Posts
July 01 2014 18:45 GMT
#211
On July 02 2014 03:37 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2014 02:15 Teoita wrote:
Revert some ghost nerfs plz


Big fat YES to this. Also would be nice if stim didnt take a zillion years.

Stim buff would be overkill I think.
Sufinsil
Profile Joined January 2011
United States760 Posts
July 01 2014 18:46 GMT
#212
Buff Nydus Worm unload speed also while we are at it.
InVerno
Profile Joined May 2011
258 Posts
July 01 2014 18:46 GMT
#213
If TL community has this effect (kinda expected tbh) why not just ask for a complete revamp of the game? Do we need to write a 20pages WoT to explain this game is becoming boring for the majority of us?
Xinzoe
Profile Joined January 2014
Korea (South)2373 Posts
July 01 2014 18:47 GMT
#214
On July 02 2014 03:46 Sufinsil wrote:
Buff Nydus Worm unload speed also while we are at it.


actually isnt a bad idea XD
Zerg.Zilla
Profile Joined February 2012
Hungary5029 Posts
July 01 2014 18:48 GMT
#215
April fools prank a bit late?!?
(•_•) ( •_•)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■) ~Keep calm and inject Larva~
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9376 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-01 18:50:02
July 01 2014 18:48 GMT
#216
On July 02 2014 03:24 Destructicon wrote:
The buffs I'll suggest will be.
WM, buff damage from 40-20-10 to 40-30-20 directly or. Change WM burrow upgrade to also increase the damage by that amount as well as to trigger immediately if ordered to target fire by a player. Adds the benefit of being more micro able and giving them some of their old power back. Drawback could be that it makes the upgrade too strong and still leaves the mid game terran too weak. In that case the base damage of the mine should be increased while upgrade only adds the faster target fire.

Stim, I'd reduce the research time from 170 to 140 seconds. Reason is rather simple, the nerf was done when maps where a lot smaller and made some 2 base death pushes just impossible to hold. This is no longer the case and its now hurting terran in not being able to put on pressure earlier on the bigger maps.

Medivacs. I'd look again at the medivac upgrade, I'd change it to not only make it drop units faster, but to also allow medivacs to pick up and drop a single sieged tank. This upgrade would help bio but also maybe marine, tank based styles.
However if the picking up sieged tanks is too strong we can forgo that and just look at another buff. I don't think touching medivac speed again would be good.


well they are not gonna make it possbile to pick up siege Tanks in dropships. Starbow has that, and it was super complicated to get to work properly. But I know alot of people say "Tanks are supposed to be immobile, it needs have 4 second siege/unsiege" duraiton, but I actually disagree with that statement.
Tanks doesn't need 4 second unsiege duration. If the duration of siegeing up is maintained it will still be considered immobile, but with lower unsiege, you can move forward (by slowsiegeing) a ton easier which could help quite a bit vs Zerg. Further, it will also encourage Siege Tank dropplay in TvZ. The latter will especially be relevant if Medivac boost duration is increased by 1 or 2 seconds.

Stim, yeh, there is no reason for it to be 170 seconds.
And for Widow Mines, yeh not sure, why they aren't trying to make it more practical to focus fire. IMO a combo of more practical firing + sligthly higher AOE (40-30-20 as you suggest) would be really really good.

TvP, still needs something late game though. Ghost cost/BT could IMO be looked at.
Shellshock
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States97276 Posts
July 01 2014 18:48 GMT
#217
I feel like medivacs are at a good place right now. Don't think that is the right path to take but overall not 100% sure of what I would like to see.
Moderatorhttp://i.imgur.com/U4xwqmD.png
TL+ Member
Paljas
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6926 Posts
July 01 2014 18:49 GMT
#218
On July 02 2014 03:46 InVerno wrote:
If TL community has this effect (kinda expected tbh) why not just ask for a complete revamp of the game? Do we need to write a 20pages WoT to explain this game is becoming boring for the majority of us?

TIL random forum poster is majority of us
speak for yourself
TL+ Member
Waise
Profile Joined June 2013
3165 Posts
July 01 2014 18:49 GMT
#219
On July 02 2014 03:46 InVerno wrote:
If TL community has this effect (kinda expected tbh) why not just ask for a complete revamp of the game? Do we need to write a 20pages WoT to explain this game is becoming boring for the majority of us?

i'm not sure what the point of your post is

some people enjoy discussing starcraft or just enjoy debating. if you don't, don't. if you don't want to read long posts and long threads, don't
TeeTS
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany2762 Posts
July 01 2014 18:50 GMT
#220
David Kim is caught in a spiral of making the game worse and worse with any change he adds from this point on. He needs to reverse some of the shit he made in the past year before adding new changes.
Revert widow mines to HotS release version
reverse Hellbats to HotS release
Delete medivac speedboost
revert terran mech/air upgrades to WoL state

revert mutalisk speedbuff

revert phoenix to WoL state
revert Oracle to HotS release state

And then you have at least a somehow solid base to look into the game and make some additional fixes. MSC has to be adressed here and Swarmhosts too for sure.
But that would be a shitload of work and testing needed. Can´t do this in mid season ofc! D. Kim wasted the time to bring in those fundamental changes in the last winter break.
But making additional changes on top of the current massively flawed state, will only make this game even worse!
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