Terran Buffs - Balance Testing Soon - July 1 - Page 12
Forum Index > SC2 General |
Zax19
Czech Republic1136 Posts
| ||
Meldon
Greece128 Posts
| ||
![]()
Destructicon
4713 Posts
On July 02 2014 03:39 Saechiis wrote: Buff tanks so Terran actually has core units besides the marine, it wasn't boring in BW so why would it be in SC2? Because in BW you couldn't select all your tanks at once and a-move them across the map, because in BW even if you could do that the pathing still made the tanks inefficient and, because in BW, even if you a-moved and clumped all your tanks, they would most likely kill themselves the first time a zealot reached them due to overkill. I'm all for making tanks a core of terran armies again, but at the same time you must realize that SC2 is vastly different and a BW tank in SC2 would be silly broken, kind of how Colossus and SH are now in that they require really special and specific kinds of counters. The tank needs more of a rework. Remove smart firing so that you may buff their damage some more. This would also result in the need to micro manage and position your tanks even better, because if they aren't staggered enough then all 20 of them could waste their shots on a single zealot. Make tank turrets operate like in BW so you could kite better with tanks. Slightly reduce siege and unsiege speeds and increase movement speed slightly. Any other thing would require a rework of the pathing engine to make bigger and bulkier armies harder to manage and thus equalize the playing fields. In BW even if you got to a max supply 3/3 mech army, it didn't mean you had automatically won the game, you still had to work your ass off pushing across the map because of all the reasons I mentioned above. SC2 did a good job introducing macro mechanics to compensate for the simplified and streamlined interface, they, however did a poor job in introducing mechanics to make larger armies scale in difficulty to control, or mechanics meant to keep the power curve of aoe units in check as they get more numerous. | ||
Spect8rCraft
649 Posts
| ||
nojok
France15845 Posts
On July 02 2014 03:50 Zax19 wrote: If anything terran needs defensive buffs similar to the photon overcharge, like range limited spells on the CC to buff a bunker. Yeah you should be able to upgrade CC into a defensive structure! We could even add some upgrade on the ebay. | ||
ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
On July 02 2014 03:46 Sufinsil wrote: Buff Nydus Worm unload speed also while we are at it. I want a vomit ability on cool down. So you can hit it and void the contents of the worm and spew creep but it can't be used again for a few minutes. | ||
Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
On July 02 2014 03:07 Thezzy wrote: Why not just revert the Mine back to what it was? Zerg and Protoss were already dealing with them just fine in the later stages when they still did 40 damage all-round. It was in a good spot then and good micro could migitate most of the damage. You could then remove the silly +shield damage. Things I want to see make a comeback: Siege Tanks (I really really miss the good old Marine/Tank vs Ling/Bane/Muta days...those were so awesome). Just buff the raw damage, make it do full damage to shields regardless of unit type and tweak the resource cost to 150/100/2. Regen Mutas, Vipers and Tempests are all tools that can deal with Tanks very well so it's not like the early days of WoL. Banshees (dead in TvP, marginal in TvZ/TvT outside early game), mostly due to the free/extra detection Zerg and Protoss got in HotS. Maybe just make them more massable. Reduce the training time and maybe give them some additional speed? Other things to unnerf now that we are no longer playing WoL: Stim research time (was done to delay early TvP timings, which do not exist anymore due to Oracles/MSC) Ghost Snipe (make it so it only does 25 damage to Massive and 45 to everything else. Snipe can only hit Biological units and the only Massive Biological units are Ultralisks and Brood Lords. There I fixed it!) Ghost EMP radius (Protoss have plenty of extra tools now and micro can migitate this further). Any thoughts on this? I'm also curious why they think going for the Boost is the right thing. It's the only HotS thing for Terran that wasn't nerfed and it's fine as it is. If they wanted to buff the Medivac, take a look at the healing or Cadeceus Reactor. | ||
CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
On July 02 2014 03:57 ThomasjServo wrote: I want a vomit ability on cool down. So you can hit it and void the contents of the worm and spew creep but it can't be used again for a few minutes. Would be awesome. Kind of like that Baneling launcher idea I saw on TL a year or two ago. | ||
Tenks
United States3104 Posts
On July 02 2014 03:53 nojok wrote: Yeah you should be able to upgrade CC into a defensive structure! We could even add some upgrade on the ebay. You know damn well no one takes PF as their natural or third unless they plan on being behind | ||
y0su
Finland7871 Posts
On July 02 2014 03:09 SC2Toastie wrote: Posted this. Opinions? + Show Spoiler + Dear Blizzard, Dayvie, First and foremost, I want to compliment you on the calm responses you are offering. The community is starting to get frustrated and angry, complaining and not being constructive. Everybody should have more respect for what you are doing behind the scenes. Thanks for that. As for changes you are offering, I'm going to offer my point of view. I'll offer my opinion on what direction you should go with balance, to get -what I personally think- a better game in the end. I'll be as clear and nuanced as I can, so please hear me out. Your current plans involve the Medivac and the Widow Mine. Let me first explain why I don't like those options. Medivac Whilst the medivac harass has lost a great deal of it's power, the way to strenghten the medivac again does not have to involve buffing the medivac per se. I'll go deeper into that with my own solutions. You have to be very careful with the medivac. The speedboost speed gives lower time to react, and while that is a good distinguisher in skill between the professional and the amateur level, you shouldn't go overboard. Medivacs are pretty mobile and this short burst in speed is giving a very subtle choice to the Terran. If you make it too long, Medivacs become too mobile and force heavier turtling from Protoss and Zerg. Increasing the unload speed, whilst a very interesting option indeed, frightens me even more. Firstly, Hellbat/Hellion drops would get more lethal instantly, because the units drop fast, thus closer, which makes their splashes overlap. Secondly because the bio dump strategies, involving 4 medivacs to dump so many units on (usually stalkers) defending forces that you overwhelm them. This might encourage the doomdrops more, which is something we shouldn't want in the game. Doomdrops ignore the contest for power between both players by going for a coinflip, either you win, or you lose. There's no interesting dynamic going on there. Widow Mines While reverting the mine buff might be better for the statistics of the game, Widow Mines are not a good unit to promote a mass of. This is because Widow Mines are hardly micro-able. They are very set and forget and very unreliable in their damage. They might blow up on 20 banelings, but they might just as well kill 30 marines. This is usually determined by luck more than player skill, and while both players can influence the blasts, in large engagements, it's simply too hard. The current 'problems' I would target The biggest general problem Terran seems to have in the current metagame is that Terran is forced into and extended midgame. A lot of the current problems in the game come from this, in my opinion. When the game gets on three stable bases, Protoss will add a second AOE to their army, they will add extra gateways, a Dark Shrine, an extra Robo, and eventually will make a Tempest Transition. Zerg can add Ultralisk and Infestors or even go to the skies and challenge Terran over there. Terran, meanwhile, is stuck making more marines, more marauders, more medivacs and some support units whose sole purpose is to soften the hardcounter of the immense Tech advantage P and Z can get. Terran does not have a lategame transition. Verse Protoss, you can add more Ghost and Vikings, but eventually, Tempest outclass you. Verses Zerg, you'll get stuck making MMM, you'll get overrun and you die. There's multiple problems coming with this, the biggest one to notice is that both Protoss and Zerg are encouraged to draw out the game and turtle. Why wouldn't they? The longer they wait, the better their army becomes, and if they use their defenders advantage well enough, they'll pretty much be given the game. Whilst the Protoss and Zerg armies become much more powerful with time/tech, the Terran army starts to lag behind and becomes too weak to compete. The fix? Terran needs to be more dangerous in the lategame. How to accomplish this? I'll try to offer some options, but I won't claim those are the solution. What happens if Terran becomes more threatening in the lategame? Protoss and Zerg will be forced to take initiative, scout actively and go on the offense before their tech advantage kicks in. If Terran can build a sufficiently powerful army that can secure bases beyond the fourth and use the gas that gets banked up, Protoss and Zerg won't be as comfortable turtling. This is where the medivac 'buff' comes in. By forcing Protoss and Zerg to take initiative, to take the map and to go on the offense, you open up their bases to Medivac harassment, which will now be more effective because the main army is not right there. How? There's a good couple of ways to go with this. Terran has a lot of units/options with relatively untapped potential. I will try to come up with a couple of good options to choose from. ---Ghosts The Ghost is in a good place in TvP. In TvZ, however, it is useless. Ever since the (IMO overboard) snipe nerf, there's no use for the Ghost in the matchup with Zerg, because it has nothing to do. While I am personally fine with the Ghost not being too useful in this matchup, some people have outed words on partially reverting the snipe buff, making Snipe an ability with for example 50 damage (35 vs Massive). ---Banshees Banshees are a very niche unit. Their only use is early game harassment with the Cloak spell. This makes the Banshee the first candidate for an increase in utility heading into the lategame. Some things I came up with: A. A fusion core upgrade (or techlab upgrade unlocked by fusion core) that gives the Banshee a new kind of plating, offering it spell immunity or increased health. Making Banshees less vulnerable to Psionic Storm, Feedback, Fungal Growth, and other AOE respectively Static Defense and allowing them to participate as part of the army that also has a map control role (kinda like 2/3 Oracles can do for Protoss). B. A secondary Weaponry mode (akin to the Thor) that does not overkill en masse (one of the bigger reasons Banshees can't work in an army, their projectiles travel too long) that is less vulnerable to heavy armor (Like Ultralisks). This makes banshees more powerful within an army. ---Ravens This is careful area, because the raven - Swarm Host dynamic in TvZ is something to be very leary off. Ravens are useless in TvP, pretty much solely because of Feedback, If anything could be changed in that department, that would be great for Terran. I don't see any buff of the Raven against Zerg as warranted. ---Vikings Vikings are excellently designed units in their Anti Air role, combined with turrets, marines and thors, their range offers excellent zoning abilities. I would like to see the vikings more useful on the ground. This can happen by taking one or combining some of the following: better armor on the ground, lose the Armored tag on the ground, Faster transformation, Higher damage, (for Mech TvP, higher attack speed, lower damage/shot, remove armored tag - effective vs Immortals). ---Thors The Thor is too immobile, too clunky, takes too long to engage a target, is bad in it's anti Air role and very terrible against lower tier units. All in all, the Thor is probably a poor, expensive, resilient version of the marine. It can do anything, but it's pretty bad at what it can do. The Thor lacks a purpose in the Terran arsenal and that is something we should aim to fix. What do we want the Thor to become? I have no idea. There is potential here, but for now, the Thors biggest flaw is having no defined role. ---Battlecruisers Seriously. The most unscary unit in the game. Battlecruisers suck. Bigtime. They are expensive, slow to build, require expensive infrastructure, two upgrades to be fully operational, very slow moving, and very, very easy to counter. Abduct, Neural (lol), Corruptors, Feedback, Void rays, Tempest, Stalkers, Psionic Storm, Archons are all very strong against Battlecruisers. BCs are soo easy to hardcounter, and the time you spend from starting the fusion core and additional startports until the time they arrive at the Protoss base is actually enough from Protoss to have build sufficient infrastructure and Tempest to 1shot said 400/300 units. The battlecruisers needs to be A LOT stronger in what it does best. Taking and winning a head on engagement Firstly, some neutralizer to Abduct and Tempest. These two alone are enough to make Battlecruisers a terrible decision in any game. Abduct could be worked around with by allowing Ghost into the TvZ lategame, but Tempest would require a change in some way. The difference in range between BC, Viking and Tempest is too big to play a zoning game with. Secondly, Battlecruisers should be able to move while firing. Seriously. Look at it. It's a giant capital ship with individually moving cannons attached to it. Why can't it fly and shoot at the same time!? ---Siege Tanks Siege Tanks lack their scary power they once had. When I think of the Siege Tank, I think of a very powerful area control unit. You'd have to be really damn sure when you move into siege tank range, because they'll do hefty damage. This is however not the case. Siege Tank damage is horrific. I'd prefer much higher damage and Aoe in trade of a higher attack cooldown. Make those shells hurt! These were some of the of the possible suggestions I had that would allow Terran to transition into the lategame. Apply a couple of these suggestions with care, and we might end up with a much more dynamic game! Keep in mind the balance of Mech in TvZ, because turtlemech on certain maps is nigh impossible to break! Also remember that enabling the Factory/Starport lanes viable tech transitions gives a massive influx in the amount of different strategies Terran can employ come the midgame. This will, IMO, make the game more diverse and strategical! Best of luck! I fully agree (on the issue and possible solutions). The only problem is that everything points to mech. I wish transitioning from bio was easier (Mech upgrade merger was the right idea but wrong implementation IMO but not the topic here). Maybe some tweaking to armory/upgrade costs/time would help some. | ||
Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
On July 02 2014 03:53 nojok wrote: Yeah you should be able to upgrade CC into a defensive structure! We could even add some upgrade on the ebay. You can't make a PF at your natural or even a third base if you want to be close to even in economy. Protoss can use both chronoboost and photon overcharge at the same time. So your point doesn't stand. | ||
Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
| ||
neverlose9999
Canada21 Posts
god damn it David Kim has some kind of MMMM fetish... (marine maruder medivac mine) why cant terran transit from tier 1 to tier 2 and 3 units when zerg and protoss can? IT'S BECAUSE tier 2 and 3 are worse than tier 1 | ||
boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
| ||
Averse
United States40 Posts
Feels like they are sidestepping around the issue by coming up with bizarre changes like medivac drop rate, lol. Would make more sense to nerf what ruins the matchup for terran, i.e. the mothership core or the oracle. | ||
Ctone23
United States1839 Posts
On July 02 2014 04:00 Qwerty85 wrote: You can't make a PF at your natural or even a third base if you want to be close to even in economy. Protoss can use both chronoboost and photon overcharge at the same time. So your point doesn't stand. I think he meant an energy ability on the OC to help buff a bunker. Or just trolling. I dn. | ||
SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On July 02 2014 04:00 y0su wrote: I fully agree (on the issue and possible solutions). The only problem is that everything points to mech. I wish transitioning from bio was easier (Mech upgrade merger was the right idea but wrong implementation IMO but not the topic here). Maybe some tweaking to armory/upgrade costs/time would help some. Everything points too fact/SP, only because Rax play is well develloped. there's no need to tweak upgrades etc., making the transition better also makes it worthwhile to transition. | ||
MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
| ||
Homework
United States283 Posts
| ||
Aquila-
516 Posts
| ||
| ||