Terran Buffs - Balance Testing Soon - July 1 - Page 10
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SlammerSC2
77 Posts
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On July 02 2014 02:55 Tenks wrote: Because Terran is the only race who can reasonably get to tier3 off 1base... To quote your signature, "Wat"? First, stop thinking that all three races work off a tier system. This ain't WC3. Now I'm assuming you mean BCs and Thors off 1 base will be too strong if they buff those units - that's why you scale the buff accordingly. Or buff by adding upgrades that will naturally slow down 1 base attack. | ||
SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On July 02 2014 03:24 Terence Chill wrote: i am worried their heads will explode when they read this Is that positive or negative ^_^? | ||
ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
On July 02 2014 03:25 SlammerSC2 wrote: Still no Oracle nerf ... Who has been complaining about oracles these days? | ||
Waise
3165 Posts
On July 02 2014 03:25 plogamer wrote: To quote your signature, "Wat"? First, stop thinking that all three races work off a tier system. This ain't WC3. Now I'm assuming you mean BCs and Thors off 1 base will be too strong if they buff those units - that's why you scale the buff accordingly. Or buff by adding upgrades that will naturally slow down 1 base attack. i think "wat?" is all the words you need to reply to someone saying that we are in danger of terran doing 1base thor/bc allins | ||
forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On July 02 2014 03:16 Pontius Pirate wrote: Simply disabling snipe on massive units would probably be sufficient. Tanks might need some more thorough changes to the game itself to be as good as people want them to be, but allowing a medivac to instantly unsiege a tank and pick it up would be a good start to their survivability in high level games. Disabling snipe on massive units is like disabling abduct on massive units; it defeats the primary purpose of the ability. It doesn't make any difference though, the only unit it would make a difference against is ultras since nobody makes brood lords anymore. Blizzard might want to experiment with giving EMP its old radius back though, see if it makes a difference in TvP. | ||
Topin
Peru10038 Posts
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Cricketer12
United States13959 Posts
No? Ok......... | ||
Ctone23
United States1839 Posts
![]() I liked the BC thought, that sounds like a LoTV change. The thor...what to do there... no ideas from me either, except maybe increase the cost while increasing the movement speed. 300/225 sounds like a starting point. | ||
Tobblish
Sweden6404 Posts
Why don't they just leave the MP aspect of the game for people that know whats good for eSports and competitive play? | ||
Varroth
Sweden471 Posts
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SinO[Ob]
France897 Posts
Just make it less harder to micro in huge fights. A terran alrdy have to split,stim, focus with viking or ghosts, care about medivacs not being sniped. Its a bit harder to micro compare to protoss IMO. TvZ seems pretty good to me, just the maps making it a bit easier for Z on late game. | ||
Tobblish
Sweden6404 Posts
On July 02 2014 03:09 SC2Toastie wrote: Posted this. Opinions? + Show Spoiler + Dear Blizzard, Dayvie, First and foremost, I want to compliment you on the calm responses you are offering. The community is starting to get frustrated and angry, complaining and not being constructive. Everybody should have more respect for what you are doing behind the scenes. Thanks for that. As for changes you are offering, I'm going to offer my point of view. I'll offer my opinion on what direction you should go with balance, to get -what I personally think- a better game in the end. I'll be as clear and nuanced as I can, so please hear me out. Your current plans involve the Medivac and the Widow Mine. Let me first explain why I don't like those options. Medivac Whilst the medivac harass has lost a great deal of it's power, the way to strenghten the medivac again does not have to involve buffing the medivac per se. I'll go deeper into that with my own solutions. You have to be very careful with the medivac. The speedboost speed gives lower time to react, and while that is a good distinguisher in skill between the professional and the amateur level, you shouldn't go overboard. Medivacs are pretty mobile and this short burst in speed is giving a very subtle choice to the Terran. If you make it too long, Medivacs become too mobile and force heavier turtling from Protoss and Zerg. Increasing the unload speed, whilst a very interesting option indeed, frightens me even more. Firstly, Hellbat/Hellion drops would get more lethal instantly, because the units drop fast, thus closer, which makes their splashes overlap. Secondly because the bio dump strategies, involving 4 medivacs to dump so many units on (usually stalkers) defending forces that you overwhelm them. This might encourage the doomdrops more, which is something we shouldn't want in the game. Doomdrops ignore the contest for power between both players by going for a coinflip, either you win, or you lose. There's no interesting dynamic going on there. Widow Mines While reverting the mine buff might be better for the statistics of the game, Widow Mines are not a good unit to promote a mass of. This is because Widow Mines are hardly micro-able. They are very set and forget and very unreliable in their damage. They might blow up on 20 banelings, but they might just as well kill 30 marines. This is usually determined by luck more than player skill, and while both players can influence the blasts, in large engagements, it's simply too hard. The current 'problems' I would target The biggest general problem Terran seems to have in the current metagame is that Terran is forced into and extended midgame. A lot of the current problems in the game come from this, in my opinion. When the game gets on three stable bases, Protoss will add a second AOE to their army, they will add extra gateways, a Dark Shrine, an extra Robo, and eventually will make a Tempest Transition. Zerg can add Ultralisk and Infestors or even go to the skies and challenge Terran over there. Terran, meanwhile, is stuck making more marines, more marauders, more medivacs and some support units whose sole purpose is to soften the hardcounter of the immense Tech advantage P and Z can get. Terran does not have a lategame transition. Verse Protoss, you can add more Ghost and Vikings, but eventually, Tempest outclass you. Verses Zerg, you'll get stuck making MMM, you'll get overrun and you die. There's multiple problems coming with this, the biggest one to notice is that both Protoss and Zerg are encouraged to draw out the game and turtle. Why wouldn't they? The longer they wait, the better their army becomes, and if they use their defenders advantage well enough, they'll pretty much be given the game. Whilst the Protoss and Zerg armies become much more powerful with time/tech, the Terran army starts to lag behind and becomes too weak to compete. The fix? Terran needs to be more dangerous in the lategame. How to accomplish this? I'll try to offer some options, but I won't claim those are the solution. What happens if Terran becomes more threatening in the lategame? Protoss and Zerg will be forced to take initiative, scout actively and go on the offense before their tech advantage kicks in. If Terran can build a sufficiently powerful army that can secure bases beyond the fourth and use the gas that gets banked up, Protoss and Zerg won't be as comfortable turtling. This is where the medivac 'buff' comes in. By forcing Protoss and Zerg to take initiative, to take the map and to go on the offense, you open up their bases to Medivac harassment, which will now be more effective because the main army is not right there. How? There's a good couple of ways to go with this. Terran has a lot of units/options with relatively untapped potential. I will try to come up with a couple of good options to choose from. ---Ghosts The Ghost is in a good place in TvP. In TvZ, however, it is useless. Ever since the (IMO overboard) snipe nerf, there's no use for the Ghost in the matchup with Zerg, because it has nothing to do. While I am personally fine with the Ghost not being too useful in this matchup, some people have outed words on partially reverting the snipe buff, making Snipe an ability with for example 50 damage (35 vs Massive). ---Banshees Banshees are a very niche unit. Their only use is early game harassment with the Cloak spell. This makes the Banshee the first candidate for an increase in utility heading into the lategame. Some things I came up with: A. A fusion core upgrade (or techlab upgrade unlocked by fusion core) that gives the Banshee a new kind of plating, offering it spell immunity or increased health. Making Banshees less vulnerable to Psionic Storm, Feedback, Fungal Growth, and other AOE respectively Static Defense and allowing them to participate as part of the army that also has a map control role (kinda like 2/3 Oracles can do for Protoss). B. A secondary Weaponry mode (akin to the Thor) that does not overkill en masse (one of the bigger reasons Banshees can't work in an army, their projectiles travel too long) that is less vulnerable to heavy armor (Like Ultralisks). This makes banshees more powerful within an army. ---Ravens This is careful area, because the raven - Swarm Host dynamic in TvZ is something to be very leary off. Ravens are useless in TvP, pretty much solely because of Feedback, If anything could be changed in that department, that would be great for Terran. I don't see any buff of the Raven against Zerg as warranted. ---Vikings Vikings are excellently designed units in their Anti Air role, combined with turrets, marines and thors, their range offers excellent zoning abilities. I would like to see the vikings more useful on the ground. This can happen by taking one or combining some of the following: better armor on the ground, lose the Armored tag on the ground, Faster transformation, Higher damage, (for Mech TvP, higher attack speed, lower damage/shot, remove armored tag - effective vs Immortals). ---Thors The Thor is too immobile, too clunky, takes too long to engage a target, is bad in it's anti Air role and very terrible against lower tier units. All in all, the Thor is probably a poor, expensive, resilient version of the marine. It can do anything, but it's pretty bad at what it can do. The Thor lacks a purpose in the Terran arsenal and that is something we should aim to fix. What do we want the Thor to become? I have no idea. There is potential here, but for now, the Thors biggest flaw is having no defined role. ---Battlecruisers Seriously. The most unscary unit in the game. Battlecruisers suck. Bigtime. They are expensive, slow to build, require expensive infrastructure, two upgrades to be fully operational, very slow moving, and very, very easy to counter. Abduct, Neural (lol), Corruptors, Feedback, Void rays, Tempest, Stalkers, Psionic Storm, Archons are all very strong against Battlecruisers. BCs are soo easy to hardcounter, and the time you spend from starting the fusion core and additional startports until the time they arrive at the Protoss base is actually enough from Protoss to have build sufficient infrastructure and Tempest to 1shot said 400/300 units. The battlecruisers needs to be A LOT stronger in what it does best. Taking and winning a head on engagement Firstly, some neutralizer to Abduct and Tempest. These two alone are enough to make Battlecruisers a terrible decision in any game. Abduct could be worked around with by allowing Ghost into the TvZ lategame, but Tempest would require a change in some way. The difference in range between BC, Viking and Tempest is too big to play a zoning game with. Secondly, Battlecruisers should be able to move while firing. Seriously. Look at it. It's a giant capital ship with individually moving cannons attached to it. Why can't it fly and shoot at the same time!? ---Siege Tanks Siege Tanks lack their scary power they once had. When I think of the Siege Tank, I think of a very powerful area control unit. You'd have to be really damn sure when you move into siege tank range, because they'll do hefty damage. This is however not the case. Siege Tank damage is horrific. I'd prefer much higher damage and Aoe in trade of a higher attack cooldown. Make those shells hurt! These were some of the of the possible suggestions I had that would allow Terran to transition into the lategame. Apply a couple of these suggestions with care, and we might end up with a much more dynamic game! Keep in mind the balance of Mech in TvZ, because turtlemech on certain maps is nigh impossible to break! Also remember that enabling the Factory/Starport lanes viable tech transitions gives a massive influx in the amount of different strategies Terran can employ come the midgame. This will, IMO, make the game more diverse and strategical! Best of luck! If only the team was interested enough to read and understand the proposed changes you make. SC2 would be wonderful. | ||
Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
There is basically 6-7 protoss players that are capable of winning a tournament, 4-5 zergs and only 1 terran. Last time a terran who is not named TaeJa won a tournament was 8-9 months ago. With such design (if harassment is balanced and not too strong - early Hots hellbat drops), terran will always underperform on top level. I would like to see some late game economy/production improvements for terran as well as better scouting tools. So basically, improve the basics that will allow terran players to be even when not harassing, not behind. | ||
Empirimancer
Canada1024 Posts
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Tobblish
Sweden6404 Posts
On July 02 2014 03:33 Qwerty85 wrote: There is basically 6-7 protoss players that are capable of winning a tournament, 4-5 zergs and only 1 terran. Last time a terran who is not named TaeJa won a tournament was 8-9 months ago. With such design (if harassment is balanced and not too strong - early Hots hellbat drops), terran will always underperform on top level. 10months actually, September 2013 WCS S3 America Polt and WCS S3 EU MMA. Fun stat, in the last 12months theres been 10 Terran victories, Taeja holds 6 of those on his own shoulders. | ||
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ToKoreaWithLove
Norway10161 Posts
On July 02 2014 02:15 Teoita wrote: Revert some ghost nerfs plz Big fat YES to this. Also would be nice if stim didnt take a zillion years. | ||
Riner1212
United States337 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
The mine becoming stronger splash being reverted to previous TvZ values or very close will close the gap vs Zerg, but medivac speed boost does absolutely nothing for TvP balance, and it's depressing that there are no changes directed at increasing Terran's options vs Protoss or removing many Protoss early game options vs Terran and nerfing nexus cannon =/ Overall, pretty disappointing patch ideas. | ||
Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
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