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Terran Buffs - Balance Testing Soon - July 1 - Page 8

Forum Index > SC2 General
1211 CommentsPost a Reply
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Gullis
Profile Joined April 2012
Sweden740 Posts
July 01 2014 18:02 GMT
#141
Boring suggestions I want tanks and battle cruisers!!!
I would rather eat than see my children starve.
Tucky_Andrey
Profile Joined February 2014
Romania2 Posts
July 01 2014 18:02 GMT
#142
i don't know about the speed boost for medivacs but the unload speed sounds good
as regarding to mines a buff is needed but i think it would be better if they had less friendly fire instead
Songname is always Darude-Sandstorm
r691175002
Profile Joined October 2012
249 Posts
July 01 2014 18:03 GMT
#143
On July 02 2014 03:00 Tenks wrote:I'm talking about if you buff Terran t3 these all-in strategies would become far more powerful. If you suddenly give Thors 3 armor by default then a Thor rush would suddenly be insanely hard to stop.


Okay there buddy, because Thor rushes are absolutely destroying right now. Has a Thor rush even worked in the last two years?

Even if a thor rush was to somehow become viable, you still need to proxy a factory + techlab and build an armory without getting scouted or you instantly lose.

Contrast this to a proxy stargate, twilight or dark shrine where the protoss can generally still win or walk away on even ground after being scouted.
stuchiu
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
July 01 2014 18:03 GMT
#144
On July 02 2014 03:01 Yakikorosu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2014 02:40 stuchiu wrote:
On July 02 2014 02:37 Yakikorosu wrote:
On July 02 2014 02:33 stuchiu wrote:
I'm going to beat real here.

The best medivac play was done by MMA and Gumiho in WoL. Since then it has never improved. Each time they improve that unit it lowers the skill ceiling of dropping.


I would agree with you excerpt for Maru. There's never been better Medivac play than what he showed in some of his recent TvPs, picking up and dropping marauders behind colossi in the middle of a battle, etc. I've seen similar tricks from other top Korean Terrans like Polt and TY. Those kinds of tricks were jsut not possible in WoL before the afterburners were added. Whether that is "good" or "bad" is another question.


But have you seen someone drop in 7 places at once like Gumiho? I haven't.


This is a fair point--I am just saying that some Terrans, led by Maru, are using drops in ways they couldn't be used in before: as part of microing your army as opposed to just positioning your army in advantageous locations prior to engaging. So further buffs to medivacs might create new opportunities for players at the same time as making drops "easier."


Thats true. I'll concede on that.
Moderator
stuchiu
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
July 01 2014 18:03 GMT
#145
Also no amount of medivac/WM buffs will let Terran crack the MSC defense against Protoss.
Moderator
Sapphire.lux
Profile Joined July 2010
Romania2620 Posts
July 01 2014 18:04 GMT
#146
Mines and drops? How about the 4958498 units that are useless in TvP? How about making Tanks, BCs, etc viable options in this now 4 years old stale MU ?
Head Coach Park: "They should buff tanks!"
Waise
Profile Joined June 2013
3165 Posts
July 01 2014 18:04 GMT
#147
On July 02 2014 03:01 Lonyo wrote:
Why not buff the units that terrans don't use to give them more strategies, which makes it harder to counter, rather than making the units they already use stronger?

because buffing unit X doesn't only open up totally new strategies, it also potentially strengthens standard core play with more of unit X added in, or transitions from standard to unit X. the trick is buffing something like the infestor (yeah that's not a terran unit, i'm just using an example) without creating something like broodlord/infestor
Tuczniak
Profile Joined September 2010
1561 Posts
July 01 2014 18:05 GMT
#148
Kinda bad changes, disappointing they didn't come up with something better.
boxerfred
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Germany8360 Posts
July 01 2014 18:05 GMT
#149
On July 02 2014 02:09 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
"Let's buff the two most annoying Terran units, and do nothing to promote other styles of play."

Ok.

"Let's impress our race-dependant opinion in the most stupid way possible, ever".

I do not think the medivac buff is a great decision, but I'm looking forward to those changes.
Cheeseling
Profile Joined March 2012
Ukraine132 Posts
July 01 2014 18:05 GMT
#150
With bigger splash WM becomes more skill based in TvZ because you will suffer from friendly fire and in TvP it's more like a protoss buff with hits on chargelots.
Topin
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Peru10112 Posts
July 01 2014 18:05 GMT
#151
i hate these changes... *sigh*

WM is core in TvP?no way man, no way, its used yes but is not a core unit :/
i would define my style between a mix of ByuN, Maru and MKP
HellNino
Profile Joined September 2011
France156 Posts
July 01 2014 18:07 GMT
#152
On July 02 2014 03:03 r691175002 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2014 03:00 Tenks wrote:I'm talking about if you buff Terran t3 these all-in strategies would become far more powerful. If you suddenly give Thors 3 armor by default then a Thor rush would suddenly be insanely hard to stop.


Has a Thor rush even worked in the last two years?



Well to be fair i think Lucifron did beat forGG with a proxy thor drop in WCS season 1. And i think he did it a few more times in other TvT. Still terran tier 3 is miles away to be strong enough to be used in a 1 base allin consistently.
I miss the golden age of Puma, wher tanks were still usefull, and protoss killable :D
26
Thezzy
Profile Joined October 2010
Netherlands2117 Posts
July 01 2014 18:07 GMT
#153
Why not just revert the Mine back to what it was? Zerg and Protoss were already dealing with them just fine in the later stages when they still did 40 damage all-round. It was in a good spot then and good micro could migitate most of the damage.
You could then remove the silly +shield damage.

Things I want to see make a comeback:
Siege Tanks (I really really miss the good old Marine/Tank vs Ling/Bane/Muta days...those were so awesome).
Just buff the raw damage, make it do full damage to shields regardless of unit type and tweak the resource cost to 150/100/2.
Regen Mutas, Vipers and Tempests are all tools that can deal with Tanks very well so it's not like the early days of WoL.

Banshees (dead in TvP, marginal in TvZ/TvT outside early game), mostly due to the free/extra detection Zerg and Protoss got in HotS. Maybe just make them more massable. Reduce the training time and maybe give them some additional speed?

Other things to unnerf now that we are no longer playing WoL:
Stim research time (was done to delay early TvP timings, which do not exist anymore due to Oracles/MSC)

Ghost Snipe (make it so it only does 25 damage to Massive and 45 to everything else. Snipe can only hit Biological units and the only Massive Biological units are Ultralisks and Brood Lords. There I fixed it!)

Ghost EMP radius (Protoss have plenty of extra tools now and micro can migitate this further).
Playing Terran is like flying down a MULE drop in a marine suit, firing a Gauss Rifle
y0su
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Finland7871 Posts
July 01 2014 18:07 GMT
#154
this reminds me of when they thought oracles needed to be faster...
royalroadweed
Profile Joined April 2013
United States8301 Posts
July 01 2014 18:08 GMT
#155
On July 02 2014 03:03 r691175002 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2014 03:00 Tenks wrote:I'm talking about if you buff Terran t3 these all-in strategies would become far more powerful. If you suddenly give Thors 3 armor by default then a Thor rush would suddenly be insanely hard to stop.


Okay there buddy, because Thor rushes are absolutely destroying right now. Has a Thor rush even worked in the last two years?

Even if a thor rush was to somehow become viable, you still need to proxy a factory + techlab and build an armory without getting scouted or you instantly lose.

Contrast this to a proxy stargate, twilight or dark shrine where the protoss can generally still win or walk away on even ground after being scouted.

Kas vs Tod in nationwars. Proxy thor on frost. Never forget. It was glorious. Its the only terran cheese I've seen work after toss gets MSC.
"Nerfing Toss can just make them stronger"
Digitalis
Profile Joined August 2011
United States1043 Posts
July 01 2014 18:09 GMT
#156
Unnerf ghosts, give them stim, nerf warp prism speed or HP.
SC2Toastie
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
Netherlands5725 Posts
July 01 2014 18:09 GMT
#157
Posted this. Opinions?
+ Show Spoiler +
Dear Blizzard, Dayvie,

First and foremost, I want to compliment you on the calm responses you are offering. The community is starting to get frustrated and angry, complaining and not being constructive. Everybody should have more respect for what you are doing behind the scenes. Thanks for that.

As for changes you are offering, I'm going to offer my point of view. I'll offer my opinion on what direction you should go with balance, to get -what I personally think- a better game in the end. I'll be as clear and nuanced as I can, so please hear me out.

Your current plans involve the Medivac and the Widow Mine. Let me first explain why I don't like those options.

Medivac
Whilst the medivac harass has lost a great deal of it's power, the way to strenghten the medivac again does not have to involve buffing the medivac per se. I'll go deeper into that with my own solutions.
You have to be very careful with the medivac.
The speedboost speed gives lower time to react, and while that is a good distinguisher in skill between the professional and the amateur level, you shouldn't go overboard. Medivacs are pretty mobile and this short burst in speed is giving a very subtle choice to the Terran. If you make it too long, Medivacs become too mobile and force heavier turtling from Protoss and Zerg.
Increasing the unload speed, whilst a very interesting option indeed, frightens me even more. Firstly, Hellbat/Hellion drops would get more lethal instantly, because the units drop fast, thus closer, which makes their splashes overlap. Secondly because the bio dump strategies, involving 4 medivacs to dump so many units on (usually stalkers) defending forces that you overwhelm them. This might encourage the doomdrops more, which is something we shouldn't want in the game. Doomdrops ignore the contest for power between both players by going for a coinflip, either you win, or you lose. There's no interesting dynamic going on there.

Widow Mines
While reverting the mine buff might be better for the statistics of the game, Widow Mines are not a good unit to promote a mass of. This is because Widow Mines are hardly micro-able. They are very set and forget and very unreliable in their damage. They might blow up on 20 banelings, but they might just as well kill 30 marines. This is usually determined by luck more than player skill, and while both players can influence the blasts, in large engagements, it's simply too hard.

The current 'problems' I would target
The biggest general problem Terran seems to have in the current metagame is that Terran is forced into and extended midgame. A lot of the current problems in the game come from this, in my opinion.
When the game gets on three stable bases, Protoss will add a second AOE to their army, they will add extra gateways, a Dark Shrine, an extra Robo, and eventually will make a Tempest Transition. Zerg can add Ultralisk and Infestors or even go to the skies and challenge Terran over there. Terran, meanwhile, is stuck making more marines, more marauders, more medivacs and some support units whose sole purpose is to soften the hardcounter of the immense Tech advantage P and Z can get.
Terran does not have a lategame transition. Verse Protoss, you can add more Ghost and Vikings, but eventually, Tempest outclass you. Verses Zerg, you'll get stuck making MMM, you'll get overrun and you die.

There's multiple problems coming with this, the biggest one to notice is that both Protoss and Zerg are encouraged to draw out the game and turtle. Why wouldn't they? The longer they wait, the better their army becomes, and if they use their defenders advantage well enough, they'll pretty much be given the game. Whilst the Protoss and Zerg armies become much more powerful with time/tech, the Terran army starts to lag behind and becomes too weak to compete.

The fix?
Terran needs to be more dangerous in the lategame. How to accomplish this? I'll try to offer some options, but I won't claim those are the solution.

What happens if Terran becomes more threatening in the lategame? Protoss and Zerg will be forced to take initiative, scout actively and go on the offense before their tech advantage kicks in. If Terran can build a sufficiently powerful army that can secure bases beyond the fourth and use the gas that gets banked up, Protoss and Zerg won't be as comfortable turtling. This is where the medivac 'buff' comes in. By forcing Protoss and Zerg to take initiative, to take the map and to go on the offense, you open up their bases to Medivac harassment, which will now be more effective because the main army is not right there.

How?
There's a good couple of ways to go with this. Terran has a lot of units/options with relatively untapped potential. I will try to come up with a couple of good options to choose from.
---Ghosts
The Ghost is in a good place in TvP. In TvZ, however, it is useless. Ever since the (IMO overboard) snipe nerf, there's no use for the Ghost in the matchup with Zerg, because it has nothing to do. While I am personally fine with the Ghost not being too useful in this matchup, some people have outed words on partially reverting the snipe buff, making Snipe an ability with for example 50 damage (35 vs Massive).
---Banshees
Banshees are a very niche unit. Their only use is early game harassment with the Cloak spell. This makes the Banshee the first candidate for an increase in utility heading into the lategame. Some things I came up with:
A. A fusion core upgrade (or techlab upgrade unlocked by fusion core) that gives the Banshee a new kind of plating, offering it spell immunity or increased health. Making Banshees less vulnerable to Psionic Storm, Feedback, Fungal Growth, and other AOE respectively Static Defense and allowing them to participate as part of the army that also has a map control role (kinda like 2/3 Oracles can do for Protoss).
B. A secondary Weaponry mode (akin to the Thor) that does not overkill en masse (one of the bigger reasons Banshees can't work in an army, their projectiles travel too long) that is less vulnerable to heavy armor (Like Ultralisks). This makes banshees more powerful within an army.
---Ravens
This is careful area, because the raven - Swarm Host dynamic in TvZ is something to be very leary off. Ravens are useless in TvP, pretty much solely because of Feedback, If anything could be changed in that department, that would be great for Terran. I don't see any buff of the Raven against Zerg as warranted.
---Vikings
Vikings are excellently designed units in their Anti Air role, combined with turrets, marines and thors, their range offers excellent zoning abilities.
I would like to see the vikings more useful on the ground. This can happen by taking one or combining some of the following: better armor on the ground, lose the Armored tag on the ground, Faster transformation, Higher damage, (for Mech TvP, higher attack speed, lower damage/shot, remove armored tag - effective vs Immortals).
---Thors
The Thor is too immobile, too clunky, takes too long to engage a target, is bad in it's anti Air role and very terrible against lower tier units. All in all, the Thor is probably a poor, expensive, resilient version of the marine. It can do anything, but it's pretty bad at what it can do. The Thor lacks a purpose in the Terran arsenal and that is something we should aim to fix.
What do we want the Thor to become? I have no idea. There is potential here, but for now, the Thors biggest flaw is having no defined role.
---Battlecruisers
Seriously. The most unscary unit in the game. Battlecruisers suck. Bigtime. They are expensive, slow to build, require expensive infrastructure, two upgrades to be fully operational, very slow moving, and very, very easy to counter. Abduct, Neural (lol), Corruptors, Feedback, Void rays, Tempest, Stalkers, Psionic Storm, Archons are all very strong against Battlecruisers.
BCs are soo easy to hardcounter, and the time you spend from starting the fusion core and additional startports until the time they arrive at the Protoss base is actually enough from Protoss to have build sufficient infrastructure and Tempest to 1shot said 400/300 units.
The battlecruisers needs to be A LOT stronger in what it does best. Taking and winning a head on engagement
Firstly, some neutralizer to Abduct and Tempest. These two alone are enough to make Battlecruisers a terrible decision in any game. Abduct could be worked around with by allowing Ghost into the TvZ lategame, but Tempest would require a change in some way. The difference in range between BC, Viking and Tempest is too big to play a zoning game with.
Secondly, Battlecruisers should be able to move while firing. Seriously. Look at it. It's a giant capital ship with individually moving cannons attached to it. Why can't it fly and shoot at the same time!?
---Siege Tanks
Siege Tanks lack their scary power they once had. When I think of the Siege Tank, I think of a very powerful area control unit. You'd have to be really damn sure when you move into siege tank range, because they'll do hefty damage.
This is however not the case. Siege Tank damage is horrific. I'd prefer much higher damage and Aoe in trade of a higher attack cooldown. Make those shells hurt!

These were some of the of the possible suggestions I had that would allow Terran to transition into the lategame. Apply a couple of these suggestions with care, and we might end up with a much more dynamic game!
Keep in mind the balance of Mech in TvZ, because turtlemech on certain maps is nigh impossible to break! Also remember that enabling the Factory/Starport lanes viable tech transitions gives a massive influx in the amount of different strategies Terran can employ come the midgame. This will, IMO, make the game more diverse and strategical!


Best of luck!

Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!
Waise
Profile Joined June 2013
3165 Posts
July 01 2014 18:09 GMT
#158
On July 02 2014 03:07 y0su wrote:
this reminds me of when they thought oracles needed to be faster...

the oracle speed buff actually created a lot of really sick and exciting oracle play at the pro level, and by the time it happened oracle openers were pretty much figured out
plgElwood
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany518 Posts
July 01 2014 18:09 GMT
#159
Hell it's about time.

Who uses WM in TvP other than panic last moment defense. ? Stronger mine in TvZ plox. Was cool when they had to play on the edge of their seat not to loose everything, like terran feels vs banes (+ storms)
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
Ben...
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada3485 Posts
July 01 2014 18:12 GMT
#160
The medivac change ideas are incredibly stupid. The fact that they even suggest something like that makes me call into question their abilities, especially in light of some of the other balance changes (oracles especially). The medivac change does not address any of the issues with regards to Terran and mid-lategame stability, and just adds even more dumb coin flip situations to the game in all Terran match ups in the mid-game. All it would do is create some instability in the Terran match ups for a month or two (IE weird new doom drop timings and things like that) until figured out and then Terran would be back where they are right now.

The fact that these medivac changes were even suggested shows a lack of understanding of the game. Between this and the oracle buff, it is becoming increasingly clear they are simply taking shots in the dark and hoping something hits.

The widow mine should should just be reverted to how it was last year. It was nerfed too early, before people were comfortable with them.
"Cliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide" -Tastosis
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