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while i understand the "medivacs are already good and widow mines are random" objections, i don't think it's quite so simple as "just buff another unit instead." buffing units outside of core compositions alters the meta more than tweaking already-viable units.
in fact, i believe that subtle changes like a medivac buff do have the potential to open up new styles and new play outside of dropping. it may not be "medivacs are better now? hey, i'm gonna build a tank!" but it could be "medivacs can do more than they used to, which gives me more room to experiment with other styles, timings and compositions while using medivacs to do extra work"
i'm not saying definitively that a medivac buff is the solution to tvx, but i'm intrigued by the idea. i'm more intrigued than i am by the widow mine buff, since that's just throwing tvz further into ***SPLITSPLITSPLIT!!! DETONATIONS??? RANDOMNESS. CREEP SPREAD???*** which, while i'm not denying is highly technical, can be a bit stupid and stale from a zerg player's POV. throwing lings into widow mines isn't really that fun even when it works, and games hinging on creep tumors being sniped at 8 minutes is a little silly too. i'd like to see a new face for tvz, but i'm probably in the minority
plus wm buffs aren't going to fix tvp ever
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I don't like the medivac change. Medivacs are fine as they are now. I like the widow mine change though.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On July 02 2014 02:48 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 02:41 stuchiu wrote:On July 02 2014 02:40 Tenks wrote:On July 02 2014 02:33 stuchiu wrote:
I'm going to be real here.
The best medivac play was done by MMA and Gumiho in WoL. Since then it has never improved. Each time they improve that unit it lowers the skill ceiling of dropping. That is just outright false. Medivacs were fire and forget in WoL. You sent it to do it's thing and there was not much you could do to make it do it's job better. Make sure it isn't flying into a static defense and you're good. Now you have to cycle through all your drops making sure to use boost appropriately for the situation because the other races got goodies to deal with boosted medivacs. Dropping was easier in WoL it is harder in HOTS. Making drops actually be worthwhile in WoL was harder than making them do something in HotS. If you wanted to make a drop good in WoL. You needed to do three other attacks. You needed a tank siege in the front. Another drop on the opposite side of the map. And a third harassment force running through. The coordination of multi drops is harder than these run and gun spam boost drops HotS players use now. The only players who still do that now are Polt, Maru, TY, and Supernova. You still have to draw attention away or you are going to lose to drop for doing absolutely no damage. Unless you're playing someone very, very bad at the game. All these things are true still in the drop game but now you have to babysit drops far more than you had to babysit in WoL. Speed boost doesn't really change the initial drop. It'll get there a few seconds faster sure but it is mostly a retreat tool. And if you don't pick up and retreat with your medivac and have boost available you'll find you just dropped a ton of money down in the toilet.
I feel like what speed boost has really done is let Terrans retreat a bit from bad battles. Not nearly as good as creep for Zerg or Recall from Toss, but it basically lets them get away from a bad fight, which is nice and needed.
As for my thoughts on this patch. Its meh. It doesn't fix any underlying issues with Terran going late game. All it does is make Terran go all-in harder in the early and mid game against Zerg and Protoss.
Basically Protoss has too many defensive (Storms, cannons, warpins) and offensive (WP, Zealots, DTs) options in the late game. Everything Protoss has counters Mech. There is almost not bad comp except mass mass mass zealots against mech.
Mutas are still nearly immortal. If you can't kill them in 1 hit it doesn't matter how much anti-air they have.
And ZvZ needs a patch. And I liked PvP more when oracles were slower.
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On July 02 2014 02:55 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 02:54 Ctone23 wrote:On July 02 2014 02:53 Tenks wrote:On July 02 2014 02:49 darkscream wrote:
silly davie
what terran needs is a reason to get to late game, not more stuff to end it before late game
what if BCs or ghosts were like, useful in all 3 matchups always, kinda like templar, vipers, broodlords, archons, etc are
And what is that reason without making 1base Terran broken? How does improving late game units make 1base Terran broken? Because Terran is the only race who can reasonably get to tier3 off 1base...
I genuinely cannot tell if you are making an elaborate joke, or if you think rushing battlecruisers on one base is a viable strategy.
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No to any medivac buff! The unit is fine and works great. It's the shit that you put into them thats busted
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On July 02 2014 02:55 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 02:54 Ctone23 wrote:On July 02 2014 02:53 Tenks wrote:On July 02 2014 02:49 darkscream wrote:
silly davie
what terran needs is a reason to get to late game, not more stuff to end it before late game
what if BCs or ghosts were like, useful in all 3 matchups always, kinda like templar, vipers, broodlords, archons, etc are
And what is that reason without making 1base Terran broken? How does improving late game units make 1base Terran broken? Because Terran is the only race who can reasonably get to tier3 off 1base...
Reasonably? Sounds more all-in to me. I don't think that should hinder any late game improvements and find the argument quite weak.
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On July 02 2014 02:54 Patate wrote:
If anyone is still wondering if the SC2 dev team still works full team on this game, here's your answer...
"it is a direction we wish to explore" What the fuck is this supposed to mean? Is he saying that tweaking these numbers will open up a whole path of strategies to explore? lol
hi, welcome to the world. this is called public relations language, and it has nothing to do with anything. every major company in any industry phrases things that way, because it's simply how things are done in the professional world
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On July 02 2014 02:33 stuchiu wrote:
Mutas are still nearly immortal. If you can't kill them in 1 hit it doesn't matter how much anti-air they have.
I agree with this the most. And it is the single reason tanks are pretty much worthless TvZ. Mutas swoop in, pick off a tank, regen in 30 seconds and do it again. If you can't pop almost the entire pack it'll just keep happening endlessly.
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On July 02 2014 02:55 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 02:54 Ctone23 wrote:On July 02 2014 02:53 Tenks wrote:On July 02 2014 02:49 darkscream wrote:
silly davie
what terran needs is a reason to get to late game, not more stuff to end it before late game
what if BCs or ghosts were like, useful in all 3 matchups always, kinda like templar, vipers, broodlords, archons, etc are
And what is that reason without making 1base Terran broken? How does improving late game units make 1base Terran broken? Because Terran is the only race who can reasonably get to tier3 off 1base...
Besides a very rare all in Thor rush in TvT (and Archons or Colo off 1 base in PvP) what are you talking about?
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Dominican Republic34 Posts
I think they should buff the early game and late game instead of the mid game medivac pushes and widow mine.
I think most Terran's have trouble with all the aggressive all in's Protoss have in the early game that push them behind.
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On July 02 2014 02:55 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 02:54 Ctone23 wrote:On July 02 2014 02:53 Tenks wrote:On July 02 2014 02:49 darkscream wrote:
silly davie
what terran needs is a reason to get to late game, not more stuff to end it before late game
what if BCs or ghosts were like, useful in all 3 matchups always, kinda like templar, vipers, broodlords, archons, etc are
And what is that reason without making 1base Terran broken? How does improving late game units make 1base Terran broken? Because Terran is the only race who can reasonably get to tier3 off 1base...
Yeah, proxy BC is too strong already...
edit: damn everybody just jumped onthat guy :D
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I guess this is a reminder of why I took such a long break from sc2 this year and quit playing seriously. How can they even consider further buffing medivacs? And widow mines, seriously... do they need a buff? Not at all. If anything, they were nerfed because their splash was too strong.
It seems like Blizzard's definition of fairness is either you blowing up an entire mineral line or doing no damage because the protoss defended perfectly. Like shutting down oracle harass and allowing it to do no damage, or losing your entire mineral line. Seriously...
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On July 02 2014 02:59 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 02:55 Tenks wrote:On July 02 2014 02:54 Ctone23 wrote:On July 02 2014 02:53 Tenks wrote:On July 02 2014 02:49 darkscream wrote:
silly davie
what terran needs is a reason to get to late game, not more stuff to end it before late game
what if BCs or ghosts were like, useful in all 3 matchups always, kinda like templar, vipers, broodlords, archons, etc are
And what is that reason without making 1base Terran broken? How does improving late game units make 1base Terran broken? Because Terran is the only race who can reasonably get to tier3 off 1base... Besides a very rare all in Thor rush in TvT (and Archons or Colo off 1 base in PvP) what are you talking about?
I'm talking about if you buff Terran t3 these all-in strategies would become far more powerful. If you suddenly give Thors 3 armor by default then a Thor rush would suddenly be insanely hard to stop.
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On July 02 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote:Mutas are still nearly immortal. If you can't kill them in 1 hit it doesn't matter how much anti-air they have.
And ZvZ needs a patch. And I liked PvP more when oracles were slower.
I agree with this man.
Mutas are starting to get out of hand, especially on the larger maps. I think we either need to tweak the regen or provide better options. I don't know what those options are, but on a whim could giving vikings a tiny splash help a bit?
The oracle speed buff should be reverted as well. It never made any sense, and Protoss really doesn't need to have 6 viable proxy strategies.
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On July 02 2014 02:40 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 02:37 Yakikorosu wrote:On July 02 2014 02:33 stuchiu wrote:
I'm going to beat real here.
The best medivac play was done by MMA and Gumiho in WoL. Since then it has never improved. Each time they improve that unit it lowers the skill ceiling of dropping. I would agree with you excerpt for Maru. There's never been better Medivac play than what he showed in some of his recent TvPs, picking up and dropping marauders behind colossi in the middle of a battle, etc. I've seen similar tricks from other top Korean Terrans like Polt and TY. Those kinds of tricks were jsut not possible in WoL before the afterburners were added. Whether that is "good" or "bad" is another question. But have you seen someone drop in 7 places at once like Gumiho? I haven't.
This is a fair point--I am just saying that some Terrans, led by Maru, are using drops in ways they couldn't be used in before: as part of microing your army as opposed to just positioning your army in advantageous locations prior to engaging. So further buffs to medivacs might create new opportunities for players at the same time as making drops "easier."
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these changes are so stupid, decreasing WM supply cost to 1 would be a better buff
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I'd like to see a better mine, and maybe a faster thor.
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On July 02 2014 03:00 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 02:59 y0su wrote:On July 02 2014 02:55 Tenks wrote:On July 02 2014 02:54 Ctone23 wrote:On July 02 2014 02:53 Tenks wrote:On July 02 2014 02:49 darkscream wrote:
silly davie
what terran needs is a reason to get to late game, not more stuff to end it before late game
what if BCs or ghosts were like, useful in all 3 matchups always, kinda like templar, vipers, broodlords, archons, etc are
And what is that reason without making 1base Terran broken? How does improving late game units make 1base Terran broken? Because Terran is the only race who can reasonably get to tier3 off 1base... Besides a very rare all in Thor rush in TvT (and Archons or Colo off 1 base in PvP) what are you talking about? I'm talking about if you buff Terran t3 these all-in strategies would become far more powerful. If you suddenly give Thors 3 armor by default then a Thor rush would suddenly be insanely hard to stop.
Probably not, with the current map size in mind.
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Why not buff the units that terrans don't use to give them more strategies, which makes it harder to counter, rather than making the units they already use stronger?
That also helps buff them by making it more unpredictable. You can be almost guaranteed what unit comp, within a small range, that a terran will go. Buffing units within that comp just means they will go for that EVEN MORE, and make TvX matches just as stale as they are now, even if terran has more chances to win.
Terran should have more chances to win, but also more WAYS to win. Buffing medivacs just means the existing strategies get stronger. It doesn't make the games that much better.
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On July 02 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote:
I feel like what speed boost has really done is let Terrans retreat a bit from bad battles. Not nearly as good as creep for Zerg or Recall from Toss, but it basically lets them get away from a bad fight, which is nice and needed.
yeah! as a z spectator one of the shittiest things to watch in tvp is when two players are on even supply and both playing well, then terran goes in for an engagement, spreads well, micros well, but isn't able to overwhelmingly win. blink is out and retreating is impossible. gg
since terran is basically the guerrilla race, i think it makes a lot of sense to continue focusing on ways for them to get more out of micro and mobility without just being crushed in direct fights. more sense than the people who want "viable mech," which just blows my fucking mind as mech is basically the closest thing terran has to protoss deathballing/swarm host turtling
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EPT
