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On July 04 2014 16:27 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 14:53 EiBmoZ wrote:
here's the thing.. all of you people crying about terran are all the people that picked terran when this game 1st came out, when terran was clearly the most OP race in sc2(mostly b/c of the small maps).. you guys got to enjoy that for 2-3 years... in the last year the only person good enough to win is teaja b/c he's just that good at sc2. as Idra would say, you guys should have had some self respect when the game 1st came out an played zerg or protoss an you'd be playing one of the strong races now, and you'd have nothing to complain about.. why don't you change the title of this thread to "Blizzard made it so i can't just build marines an win very game vs both races tier everything =("
#fuckterran
<-- Hating Terran since MK cheese Fruitdealer GSL 2 I still smile a bit every time I see terran lose. 
This is disgusting. Is this really how we want to achieve balance? flavour of month race? I dont even play sc2 since a year, but the tvp's I have seen are just brutal and unfun to watch. why would it be a bad thing for terran to have more options availabpe than 4M ?
oh and btw I picked terran in the WOL beta, when 1 supply 2 armor roaches were dominating the game. If I were to pick up the game again, why should I be punished for picking a race I enjoyed playing. I hate even having this discussion. "muahaha you should have picked another race!" - seriously?
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On July 04 2014 17:17 404AlphaSquad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 16:27 neoghaleon55 wrote:On July 04 2014 14:53 EiBmoZ wrote:
here's the thing.. all of you people crying about terran are all the people that picked terran when this game 1st came out, when terran was clearly the most OP race in sc2(mostly b/c of the small maps).. you guys got to enjoy that for 2-3 years... in the last year the only person good enough to win is teaja b/c he's just that good at sc2. as Idra would say, you guys should have had some self respect when the game 1st came out an played zerg or protoss an you'd be playing one of the strong races now, and you'd have nothing to complain about.. why don't you change the title of this thread to "Blizzard made it so i can't just build marines an win very game vs both races tier everything =("
#fuckterran
<-- Hating Terran since MK cheese Fruitdealer GSL 2 I still smile a bit every time I see terran lose. This is disgusting. Is this really how we want to achieve balance? flavour of month race? I dont even play sc2 since a year, but the tvp's I have seen are just brutal and unfun to watch. why would it be a bad thing for terran to have more options availabpe than 4M ? oh and btw I picked terran in the WOL beta, when 1 supply 2 armor roaches were dominating the game. If I were to pick up the game again, why should I be punished for picking a race I enjoyed playing. I hate even having this discussion. "muahaha you should have picked another race!" - seriously?
you get the "muahaha you should have picked another race!" b/c back in wol if we said a word about balance that's what you terran players would say back to us, or we'd get "all the good players picked terran it's not terran being OP"... well the game has changed you guys can't win with cheap bs anymore.. teaja can win with terran, maybe if you all practiced as hard as him instead of posting in threads crying "poor us" terrans would have more wins lately.
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On July 04 2014 17:38 EiBmoZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 17:17 404AlphaSquad wrote:On July 04 2014 16:27 neoghaleon55 wrote:On July 04 2014 14:53 EiBmoZ wrote:
here's the thing.. all of you people crying about terran are all the people that picked terran when this game 1st came out, when terran was clearly the most OP race in sc2(mostly b/c of the small maps).. you guys got to enjoy that for 2-3 years... in the last year the only person good enough to win is teaja b/c he's just that good at sc2. as Idra would say, you guys should have had some self respect when the game 1st came out an played zerg or protoss an you'd be playing one of the strong races now, and you'd have nothing to complain about.. why don't you change the title of this thread to "Blizzard made it so i can't just build marines an win very game vs both races tier everything =("
#fuckterran
<-- Hating Terran since MK cheese Fruitdealer GSL 2 I still smile a bit every time I see terran lose. This is disgusting. Is this really how we want to achieve balance? flavour of month race? I dont even play sc2 since a year, but the tvp's I have seen are just brutal and unfun to watch. why would it be a bad thing for terran to have more options availabpe than 4M ? oh and btw I picked terran in the WOL beta, when 1 supply 2 armor roaches were dominating the game. If I were to pick up the game again, why should I be punished for picking a race I enjoyed playing. I hate even having this discussion. "muahaha you should have picked another race!" - seriously? you get the "muahaha you should have picked another race!" b/c back in wol if we said a word about balance that's what you terran players would say back to us, or we'd get "all the good players picked terran it's not terran being OP"... well the game has changed you guys can't win with cheap bs anymore.. teaja can win with terran, maybe if you all practiced as hard as him instead of posting in threads crying "poor us" terrans would have more wins lately.
So you winning with cheap bs now is ok?
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On July 04 2014 17:38 EiBmoZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 17:17 404AlphaSquad wrote:On July 04 2014 16:27 neoghaleon55 wrote:On July 04 2014 14:53 EiBmoZ wrote:
here's the thing.. all of you people crying about terran are all the people that picked terran when this game 1st came out, when terran was clearly the most OP race in sc2(mostly b/c of the small maps).. you guys got to enjoy that for 2-3 years... in the last year the only person good enough to win is teaja b/c he's just that good at sc2. as Idra would say, you guys should have had some self respect when the game 1st came out an played zerg or protoss an you'd be playing one of the strong races now, and you'd have nothing to complain about.. why don't you change the title of this thread to "Blizzard made it so i can't just build marines an win very game vs both races tier everything =("
#fuckterran
<-- Hating Terran since MK cheese Fruitdealer GSL 2 I still smile a bit every time I see terran lose. This is disgusting. Is this really how we want to achieve balance? flavour of month race? I dont even play sc2 since a year, but the tvp's I have seen are just brutal and unfun to watch. why would it be a bad thing for terran to have more options availabpe than 4M ? oh and btw I picked terran in the WOL beta, when 1 supply 2 armor roaches were dominating the game. If I were to pick up the game again, why should I be punished for picking a race I enjoyed playing. I hate even having this discussion. "muahaha you should have picked another race!" - seriously? you get the "muahaha you should have picked another race!" b/c back in wol if we said a word about balance that's what you terran players would say back to us, or we'd get "all the good players picked terran it's not terran being OP"... well the game has changed you guys can't win with cheap bs anymore.. teaja can win with terran, maybe if you all practiced as hard as him instead of posting in threads crying "poor us" terrans would have more wins lately.
First of, Terrans didn't "dominate WOL".
They dominated early WOL for a brief period of time (early 2011), and then they kept performing worse and worse.
At the end of WOL, Terran was by far the worse race.
Secondly, Taeja doesn't "win with Terran".
He just consistently participates in tournaments where there are no KR top pro.
Baloon, MC, Jaedong, HasuObs, would be no match for Maru as well.
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On July 04 2014 18:53 SiroKO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 17:38 EiBmoZ wrote:On July 04 2014 17:17 404AlphaSquad wrote:On July 04 2014 16:27 neoghaleon55 wrote:On July 04 2014 14:53 EiBmoZ wrote:
here's the thing.. all of you people crying about terran are all the people that picked terran when this game 1st came out, when terran was clearly the most OP race in sc2(mostly b/c of the small maps).. you guys got to enjoy that for 2-3 years... in the last year the only person good enough to win is teaja b/c he's just that good at sc2. as Idra would say, you guys should have had some self respect when the game 1st came out an played zerg or protoss an you'd be playing one of the strong races now, and you'd have nothing to complain about.. why don't you change the title of this thread to "Blizzard made it so i can't just build marines an win very game vs both races tier everything =("
#fuckterran
<-- Hating Terran since MK cheese Fruitdealer GSL 2 I still smile a bit every time I see terran lose. This is disgusting. Is this really how we want to achieve balance? flavour of month race? I dont even play sc2 since a year, but the tvp's I have seen are just brutal and unfun to watch. why would it be a bad thing for terran to have more options availabpe than 4M ? oh and btw I picked terran in the WOL beta, when 1 supply 2 armor roaches were dominating the game. If I were to pick up the game again, why should I be punished for picking a race I enjoyed playing. I hate even having this discussion. "muahaha you should have picked another race!" - seriously? you get the "muahaha you should have picked another race!" b/c back in wol if we said a word about balance that's what you terran players would say back to us, or we'd get "all the good players picked terran it's not terran being OP"... well the game has changed you guys can't win with cheap bs anymore.. teaja can win with terran, maybe if you all practiced as hard as him instead of posting in threads crying "poor us" terrans would have more wins lately. First of, Terrans didn't "dominate WOL". They dominated early WOL for a brief period of time (early 2011), and then they kept performing worse and worse. At the end of WOL, Terran was by far the worse race. Secondly, Taeja doesn't "win with Terran". He just consistently participates in tournaments where there are no KR top pro. Baloon, MC, Jaedong, HasuObs, would be no match for Maru as well.
I think they dominated 2010 (both Korean and foreign scene) despite 0 GSL wins. In 2011 Korean terrans continued to dominate, but if anything foreign terrans underperformed.
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On July 04 2014 17:17 404AlphaSquad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 16:27 neoghaleon55 wrote:On July 04 2014 14:53 EiBmoZ wrote:
here's the thing.. all of you people crying about terran are all the people that picked terran when this game 1st came out, when terran was clearly the most OP race in sc2(mostly b/c of the small maps).. you guys got to enjoy that for 2-3 years... in the last year the only person good enough to win is teaja b/c he's just that good at sc2. as Idra would say, you guys should have had some self respect when the game 1st came out an played zerg or protoss an you'd be playing one of the strong races now, and you'd have nothing to complain about.. why don't you change the title of this thread to "Blizzard made it so i can't just build marines an win very game vs both races tier everything =("
#fuckterran
<-- Hating Terran since MK cheese Fruitdealer GSL 2 I still smile a bit every time I see terran lose. This is disgusting. Is this really how we want to achieve balance? flavour of month race? I dont even play sc2 since a year, but the tvp's I have seen are just brutal and unfun to watch. why would it be a bad thing for terran to have more options availabpe than 4M ? oh and btw I picked terran in the WOL beta, when 1 supply 2 armor roaches were dominating the game. If I were to pick up the game again, why should I be punished for picking a race I enjoyed playing. I hate even having this discussion. "muahaha you should have picked another race!" - seriously?
that is just a retarded attitude, terran dominated once so now we get to dominate? thats the same as saying "hey this guy talked shit to me 5 years ago, so now i can talk shit to him because he did it to me."
that is dumb this way it never ends because 1 race is OP and the other 2 races whine about it, then when another race becomes OP they say "hell now it is our turn to be OP, you had your chance now it is ours." that is just dumb blizz shoud just give terran a few more options to give terran a fair chance.
i'm a protoss player and i hate it when i lose to terran, but i hate it more when terran progamers retire because they don't stand a chance.
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that's not why i'm chirping these terran players at all, i'm just not having any sympathy for them b/c i know they had no sympathy for protoss or zerg players... none at all.. and if blizzard thought this was a problem they'd patch the game. the fact that they've left the game in this state for any length of time tells me they don't think there is a balance issue that can't be worked out by terran players adjusting their tactics an improving their own game.
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On July 04 2014 19:57 EiBmoZ wrote:
that's not why i'm chirping these terran players at all, i'm just not having any sympathy for them b/c i know they had no sympathy for protoss or zerg players... none at all.. and if blizzard thought this was a problem they'd patch the game. the fact that they've left the game in this state for any length of time tells me they don't think there is a balance issue that can't be worked out by terran players adjusting their tactics an improving their own game.
We <---------> Them
Seriously.
Go back to the battle.net forums. Talking like that my be normal over there.
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On July 04 2014 20:43 submarine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 19:57 EiBmoZ wrote:
that's not why i'm chirping these terran players at all, i'm just not having any sympathy for them b/c i know they had no sympathy for protoss or zerg players... none at all.. and if blizzard thought this was a problem they'd patch the game. the fact that they've left the game in this state for any length of time tells me they don't think there is a balance issue that can't be worked out by terran players adjusting their tactics an improving their own game. We <---------> Them Seriously. Go back to the battle.net forums. Talking like that my be normal over there.
i know the truth hurts bro... i'll leave you alone now, don't worry.. the bad man is going to stop with the scary words you don't want to accept.
User was temp banned for being an idiot across multiple posts.
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On July 04 2014 20:43 submarine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 19:57 EiBmoZ wrote:
that's not why i'm chirping these terran players at all, i'm just not having any sympathy for them b/c i know they had no sympathy for protoss or zerg players... none at all.. and if blizzard thought this was a problem they'd patch the game. the fact that they've left the game in this state for any length of time tells me they don't think there is a balance issue that can't be worked out by terran players adjusting their tactics an improving their own game. We <---------> Them Seriously. Go back to the battle.net forums. Talking like that my be normal over there.
Just ignore him.
Hopefully Blizzard will start taking notice to what the community has been saying about their proposed changes and will start making right call. The issues mentioned in the OP are not adressed with just a Medivac/Mine change (although the mine change would alleviate mass Baneling a little).
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Very good read.
And yeah, since sc2 is a 2 races game it's a lot less fun.
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This thread is such a good example of why intelligent balance discussion is so difficult on this or any site. The maturity level of people when discussing balance goes to infantile.
The article was fantastic. I wish all balance opinions were as well sourced. Theres a world of difference between balance whine and an intelligent balance discussion. The difference is evidence. Do you back your arguments with evidence.
I root for Terran and have felt for a long time something was wrong with the race. But I lacked the knowledge or expertise to fully understand why. This article explains everything. Yes its an "opinion," but its a very well researched opinion which is why its on TL's front page, as it deserves to be.
I am more knowledgeable and have a better understanding of SC2 for reading it and for that my thanks to the author and TL for publishing.
NOTE: if the counter arguments against this post were as well sourced and detailed as the original, we might have had the best balance discussion in the history of starcraft, and everyone would have learned a great deal. One can only wish ...
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On July 04 2014 09:32 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 09:04 eightym wrote:On July 04 2014 06:06 ZAiNs wrote:On July 04 2014 06:03 Wombat_NI wrote:
Wait, Tempests are 4 supply?
I'm sickened both at how this is news to me and also that they are only 4 bloody supply! Sheesh So are Brood Lords. Thors are 6 supply and relatively useless compared to blords and tempests (again, both 4 supply, wow). It's almost as if the races are asymmetrical.
Power units are moderated by how much supply they take. In Brood War, Ultras only took four supply, now they take six. Hydras were one supply, now they're two.
The "races are asymmetrical" refrain is a useless way of discussing game balance.
We might see different gameplay if dark or high templars were 3 supply. For some strange reason despite siege tanks, hydras, and the like going up a supply from brood war, higher tech powerful units like DT and HT are still two supply.
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On July 05 2014 01:47 Socup wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 09:32 ZAiNs wrote:On July 04 2014 09:04 eightym wrote:On July 04 2014 06:06 ZAiNs wrote:On July 04 2014 06:03 Wombat_NI wrote:
Wait, Tempests are 4 supply?
I'm sickened both at how this is news to me and also that they are only 4 bloody supply! Sheesh So are Brood Lords. Thors are 6 supply and relatively useless compared to blords and tempests (again, both 4 supply, wow). It's almost as if the races are asymmetrical. Power units are moderated by how much supply they take. In Brood War, Ultras only took four supply, now they take six. Hydras were one supply, now they're two. The "races are asymmetrical" refrain is a useless way of discussing game balance. We might see different gameplay if dark or high templars were 3 supply. For some strange reason despite siege tanks, hydras, and the like going up a supply from brood war, higher tech powerful units like DT and HT are still two supply.
Exactly, and the races are different. You can't simply say 'Tempests and BL are 4 supply and way better than Thors, therefore Thors should be 4 supply'. There are lots of different factors at play, for example Terran late-late-game can go down to like 20 SCVs to get even more army supply.
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On July 05 2014 01:58 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2014 01:47 Socup wrote:On July 04 2014 09:32 ZAiNs wrote:On July 04 2014 09:04 eightym wrote:On July 04 2014 06:06 ZAiNs wrote:On July 04 2014 06:03 Wombat_NI wrote:
Wait, Tempests are 4 supply?
I'm sickened both at how this is news to me and also that they are only 4 bloody supply! Sheesh So are Brood Lords. Thors are 6 supply and relatively useless compared to blords and tempests (again, both 4 supply, wow). It's almost as if the races are asymmetrical. Power units are moderated by how much supply they take. In Brood War, Ultras only took four supply, now they take six. Hydras were one supply, now they're two. The "races are asymmetrical" refrain is a useless way of discussing game balance. We might see different gameplay if dark or high templars were 3 supply. For some strange reason despite siege tanks, hydras, and the like going up a supply from brood war, higher tech powerful units like DT and HT are still two supply. Exactly, and the races are different. You can't simply say 'Tempests and BL are 4 supply and way better than Thors, therefore Thors should be 4 supply'. There are lots of different factors at play, for example Terran late-late-game can go down to like 20 SCVs to get even more army supply.
Bad logic. It doesn't matter how many more units you can get if they're inferior. Or would you say a 180 supply marine based army can beat a 120 supply pure colossus army? Thors for their supply cost are weak. Tanks and thors melt to colossus well enough when screened by zealots and all the microing in the world cant really stop mech from melting to protoss. It takes a lot more effort for a Terran to set up to engage protoss properly and NOT simply get wiped than for protoss to casually move over, attack, and then micro some colossus back in case of focus fire/viking.
sentry FF and protoss army movement is a lot like zerg + mass queued fungal, only having better range it's more effective in that playstyle. Spam the FFs, Fire and Forget the main units, and then micro colossus back if they're in danger. Terran has to set up tanks withouth them getting reamed, position slow thors well, and get off some EMPs on the most important units which takes judgement and a good eye. EMP also has really small radius and low en-shield reduction compared to brood war, which I think is silly, except that it not being the linchpin unit that makes Terran suddenly equal means that we can more clearly see problems with other terran units with regard to TvP.
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i think muta & banshee are key for the issues at hand, but what do i know.. im just a protoss..
+ Show Spoiler +->nerfing mutas in some way would probably give tanks a chance in tvz again
->making cloaked banshees a threat at an earlier time would make those 2base blink without detection-strats so much more risky
>opinions
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Everything can be resumed with those 2 images (perhaps having the winrate instead of map wons would be interesting too)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/ZeromuS/Strategy/ZPcraft/11.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/ZeromuS/Strategy/ZPcraft/10.jpg)
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On July 04 2014 23:15 MrCon wrote:
Very good read.
And yeah, since sc2 is a 2 races game it's a lot less fun.
I don't recall protoss whining when the two races were zerg and terran. Grow up. If history repeats itself people simply need to wake up and try things outside of the meta. If it needs fixing blizzard will fix it.
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On July 05 2014 07:18 DanceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 23:15 MrCon wrote:
Very good read.
And yeah, since sc2 is a 2 races game it's a lot less fun. I don't recall protoss whining when the two races were zerg and terran. Grow up. If history repeats itself people simply need to wake up and try things outside of the meta. If it needs fixing blizzard will fix it.
The point is that the community are split between two polar spectrum.
One wants the players to solve the game by themselves because that's why BW's games were so meaningful. And if you rely on the devs to "balance" the game, then every winners of tournies are simply the result of flukes and only won because of patches.
The other side wants the devs to be constantly getting involved and patch the game at regular intervals to keep it "fresh".
So ofc the devs are in a dilemma. But they wouldn't have to be if they balanced the game during the beta phase of the game which they totally missed the mark.
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On July 05 2014 07:18 DanceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 23:15 MrCon wrote:
Very good read.
And yeah, since sc2 is a 2 races game it's a lot less fun. I don't recall protoss whining when the two races were zerg and terran. Grow up. If history repeats itself people simply need to wake up and try things outside of the meta. If it needs fixing blizzard will fix it.
Sad Zealot Fan Club.
Lol don't pretend to be noble now. Protosses are whining even in 2014 when toss is winning most tournaments, "Just because it's 50% win rate doesn't mean it's balanced yet. It is way difficult for Protoss to make things happen in these games." Get that holier-than-thou crap out of here. Protoss players are not somehow intrinsically less prone to balance whine than either terran or zerg players.
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EPT
