Welcome to ZParcraft II - Page 62

On July 07 2014 07:21 Konranjyoutai wrote:
I'll never understand this mentality when Zerg gets clumped in with Protoss every time Terran speaks about being underpowered. Zerg has won just as many Premier tournaments in the past year as Terran and Protoss has won 3x that. Even though both Zerg and Terran cannot compete with Protoss at this point, every race has had a year of dominance. Realistically though, through the life of sc2, as seen on Sc2Trends, Terran is still ahead in lifetime Premiere tournament wins.

Losing at the lottery is one thing; an utterly inferior lategame is another; but for Terran, the most depressing aspect of the match-up is probably the massive contrast in control needed to handle a Protoss and a Terran army in large engagements.

jjakji controls every part of his army: bio, Vikings, Ghosts; elfi doesn't even try to protect his Colossi from free shots and focuses nothing particular with his Stalkers. The superiority of Protoss' design..;

On July 07 2014 08:06 Karpfen wrote:

Yup, but no one gives a fuck of old wins. It's the current state that matters.

On July 07 2014 13:19 Macbex wrote:
I think OP has very good understanding of current meta and very solid understanding of Terran, but not so much about Protoss and Zerg. I'll point out one.

I agree with most of arguments, especially widowmine nerf part and blink menace part.
However,


this is not simply not true.

Amount of micro required for late-game Protoss army is about the same as late-game Terran army.
In ultimate Protoss deathball vs Terran Bio Deathball,

Terran have to do:
1. Split to minimize AoE damage. This is pretty hard, especially to dodge storm, but unless you caught off guard, you can always pre-split before the battle.
2. Kiting zealots. As fancy as it may looks, this is not hard at all.
3. Viking snipe colossi. Difficulty of this depends on upgrades and numbers. When there are at least 3 viking for one colossi, this is as simple as right click.
4. Ghost snipe and EMP HTs and rest of Protoss army. This, in my opinion, is the hardest part. Ghost does have longer range compare to HT (Snipe and EMP are both range 10, where Feedback and Storm are both range 9) and cloak, but Terran player have to remove majority, if not most, of HTs in time. Even a few storm can produce a devastating effect to Terran army.

You thought that was hard? Well, it is. Harder than Protoss? Not quite.
Well, let's look at Protoss part. Many Protoss micro are simply ignored because it's doesn't appear in screen.

Here we go:
1. Positioning and engagement timing. Majority of people watching late-game Protoss army thinks all Protoss player have to do is group and a-move and drop few storms. This is simply wrong. If that's all you do, you hardly make above Plat. If positioned incorrectly, more than half of late game Protoss death-ball won't shooting at all. Also, if you placed all your zealot in front (wait? aren't we suppose to do so? well...not quite), all of them will hit by EMP and instantly lose near half of your tank and possible you lose your game as well. Ideally, you want to portion of your archon and zealots to go in first to get EMPed. Of course, you have to move back your colossi so stalkers can deal with the viking, protect immortals/MSC/sentries, etc. This can be as difficult as split, but since it's not so fancy on screen, most people won't even notice the difference. Also, like split, you can do most of work before the engagement.
2. Blink and target fire vikings with stalkers. This is about the same difficulty as kiting zealots.
3. Guardian shield. No-brainer.
4. Time warp. Half no-brainer.
5. Forcefield. Difficulty depends of actual scenario. Forcefield can be really no-brainer or it can be the hardest thing in SC2.
6. Avoiding Ghosts and drop storm. This is as difficult as Ghost EMP/Sniping HT, if not more difficult. But as mentioned above, a few good storm will wreck Terran bio ball, so Ghost vs HTs usually won't end well for Terran. However, skill required is about the same.

Different micros are required for different race. OP simply presenting what he knows and understand, ignoring what he doesn't know or pretend like it doesn't exist.

For example, for Jjakji vs Elfi game. OP said that


I'm pretty sure "superiority of Protoss design" gives Protoss player free upgrade advantage and army supply as well.
Elfi completed 3/3 near 5 minutes before the engagement and was working on shield upgrade. Jjakji, on the other hand, had only 2/2 and 3/3 was not even half way done. Not mentioning that Elfi had near 30 more army supply up. That's why zealots are not dying...they outnumbered and out-upgraded Terran bio. OP mentioned none of these.

On July 07 2014 13:38 XXXSmOke wrote:



I have seen this arguement pan out a million times in this exact manner. "Blah blah let me outline the steps of micro. Guess what, both races have things to do.

The problem lies in how forgiving some steps are when not executed properly(Which is obviously going to happen way more with your average TL T player more so than pros, hence the arguement)

If you do not blink focus fire you might lose some more collsi than normal but compare that to a T that does not stutter step or even misses a few stutter steps.... The end result is pretty obvious...

You might fuck up some force fields, but they are so spammable that you can react and reforce field more. Same goes for storm. Ghosts get a small window before they are disintegrated by the P army.


So yes, you have things to do the sarcasm of P reading a news paper during the game is what it is just sarcasm. But when you look deeper into it the problem the truth stands out a bit more.

Same thing can be said about TvZ, Z's have lots of things to do. But the fact remains that splitting tons of marines MUST be done, while plenty of Z's for the history of this game have gotten away with not microing blings because it does not HAVE to be done. Does anybody wonder why Z's bitched so much when the widow mine was very powerful????? It was because suddenly the tables turned and it was the first time that Z got a small taste of what its like being Terran.

To compound all of this and really make sure T is so damn fucked, Blizz designed the game so that the other two races have a MASSIVE advantage late game by their design of reproducing units. So not only do you have two races that are very forgiving micro wise, but on top of that even if they fuck up they can come right back.

In a high velocity game, any mistake that is easily forgiven is a very big deal.

On July 07 2014 13:27 Macbex wrote:


A year ago,in 2013 WCS S1, Terran was the absolute dominant race. Much more than Protoss today.
Funny enough, neither Protoss nor Zerg were whining, screaming "Power of Terran" like 5 years old.

Yup, no one gives a fuck of old wins, but they probably should have tho.

http://www.starcrafttrends.com/

On July 07 2014 13:27 Macbex wrote:


A year ago,in 2013 WCS S1, Terran was the absolute dominant race. Much more than Protoss today.
Funny enough, neither Protoss nor Zerg were whining, screaming "Power of Terran" like 5 years old.

Yup, no one gives a fuck of old wins, but they probably should have tho.

http://www.starcrafttrends.com/

On July 07 2014 13:38 XXXSmOke wrote:
To compound all of this and really make sure T is so damn fucked, Blizz designed the game so that the other two races have a MASSIVE advantage late game by their design of reproducing units. So not only do you have two races that are very forgiving micro wise, but on top of that even if they fuck up they can come right back.

On July 07 2014 14:48 fruity. wrote:


Nail on the head.

This has to be one of the largest problems for Terran players, there is just zero room for errors. Purely because of the way each race produces units.

On July 07 2014 16:49 klup wrote:
ERRATUM :

can we fix the title and rewrite it as : "Welcome to Parcraft 2"

On a serious note, how can David Kim can state : "In terms of recent tournament wins, the three races are performing quite evenly."

Is there secret tournaments we didn't heard of where terran and zergs has won as many as protoss ?

On July 07 2014 16:53 ZenithM wrote:

David Kim is probably talking about Zerg, Protoss and Hybrid (what Scarlett plays, obviously).

On July 07 2014 17:50 Gwavajuice wrote:


Season 2 numbers (code S + AM premier + EU premier)

PvT win ratio : 50.5 (97 games)
PvZ win ratio : 53.0 (181 games)
TvZ win ratio : 51.5 (99 games)
[...]

On July 07 2014 17:50 Gwavajuice wrote:


Season 2 numbers (code S + AM premier + EU premier)

PvT win ratio : 50.5 (97 games)
PvZ win ratio : 53.0 (181 games)
TvZ win ratio : 51.5 (99 games)

that's the kind of figures we should be talking about and not this kind of charts that means absolutely nothing at all :

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