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On July 07 2014 13:19 Macbex wrote:I think OP has very good understanding of current meta and very solid understanding of Terran, but not so much about Protoss and Zerg. I'll point out one. I agree with most of arguments, especially widowmine nerf part and blink menace part. However, Show nested quote +
Losing at the lottery is one thing; an utterly inferior lategame is another; but for Terran, the most depressing aspect of the match-up is probably the massive contrast in control needed to handle a Protoss and a Terran army in large engagements.
this is not simply not true. Amount of micro required for late-game Protoss army is about the same as late-game Terran army. In ultimate Protoss deathball vs Terran Bio Deathball, Terran have to do: 1. Split to minimize AoE damage. This is pretty hard, especially to dodge storm, but unless you caught off guard, you can always pre-split before the battle. 2. Kiting zealots. As fancy as it may looks, this is not hard at all. 3. Viking snipe colossi. Difficulty of this depends on upgrades and numbers. When there are at least 3 viking for one colossi, this is as simple as right click. 4. Ghost snipe and EMP HTs and rest of Protoss army. This, in my opinion, is the hardest part. Ghost does have longer range compare to HT (Snipe and EMP are both range 10, where Feedback and Storm are both range 9) and cloak, but Terran player have to remove majority, if not most, of HTs in time. Even a few storm can produce a devastating effect to Terran army. You thought that was hard? Well, it is. Harder than Protoss? Not quite. Well, let's look at Protoss part. Many Protoss micro are simply ignored because it's doesn't appear in screen. Here we go: 1. Positioning and engagement timing. Majority of people watching late-game Protoss army thinks all Protoss player have to do is group and a-move and drop few storms. This is simply wrong. If that's all you do, you hardly make above Plat. If positioned incorrectly, more than half of late game Protoss death-ball won't shooting at all. Also, if you placed all your zealot in front (wait? aren't we suppose to do so? well...not quite), all of them will hit by EMP and instantly lose near half of your tank and possible you lose your game as well. Ideally, you want to portion of your archon and zealots to go in first to get EMPed. Of course, you have to move back your colossi so stalkers can deal with the viking, protect immortals/MSC/sentries, etc. This can be as difficult as split, but since it's not so fancy on screen, most people won't even notice the difference. Also, like split, you can do most of work before the engagement. 2. Blink and target fire vikings with stalkers. This is about the same difficulty as kiting zealots. 3. Guardian shield. No-brainer. 4. Time warp. Half no-brainer. 5. Forcefield. Difficulty depends of actual scenario. Forcefield can be really no-brainer or it can be the hardest thing in SC2. 6. Avoiding Ghosts and drop storm. This is as difficult as Ghost EMP/Sniping HT, if not more difficult. But as mentioned above, a few good storm will wreck Terran bio ball, so Ghost vs HTs usually won't end well for Terran. However, skill required is about the same. Different micros are required for different race. OP simply presenting what he knows and understand, ignoring what he doesn't know or pretend like it doesn't exist.
The skill to emp, and the skill to storm is exactly the same. One hotkey, one click. The problem is the risk/rewards are not equal...
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On July 07 2014 13:19 Macbex wrote:I think OP has very good understanding of current meta and very solid understanding of Terran, but not so much about Protoss and Zerg. I'll point out one. I agree with most of arguments, especially widowmine nerf part and blink menace part. However, Show nested quote +
Losing at the lottery is one thing; an utterly inferior lategame is another; but for Terran, the most depressing aspect of the match-up is probably the massive contrast in control needed to handle a Protoss and a Terran army in large engagements.
this is not simply not true. Amount of micro required for late-game Protoss army is about the same as late-game Terran army. In ultimate Protoss deathball vs Terran Bio Deathball, Terran have to do: 1. Split to minimize AoE damage. This is pretty hard, especially to dodge storm, but unless you caught off guard, you can always pre-split before the battle. 2. Kiting zealots. As fancy as it may looks, this is not hard at all. 3. Viking snipe colossi. Difficulty of this depends on upgrades and numbers. When there are at least 3 viking for one colossi, this is as simple as right click. 4. Ghost snipe and EMP HTs and rest of Protoss army. This, in my opinion, is the hardest part. Ghost does have longer range compare to HT (Snipe and EMP are both range 10, where Feedback and Storm are both range 9) and cloak, but Terran player have to remove majority, if not most, of HTs in time. Even a few storm can produce a devastating effect to Terran army. You thought that was hard? Well, it is. Harder than Protoss? Not quite. Well, let's look at Protoss part. Many Protoss micro are simply ignored because it's doesn't appear in screen. Here we go: 1. Positioning and engagement timing. Majority of people watching late-game Protoss army thinks all Protoss player have to do is group and a-move and drop few storms. This is simply wrong. If that's all you do, you hardly make above Plat. If positioned incorrectly, more than half of late game Protoss death-ball won't shooting at all. Also, if you placed all your zealot in front (wait? aren't we suppose to do so? well...not quite), all of them will hit by EMP and instantly lose near half of your tank and possible you lose your game as well. Ideally, you want to portion of your archon and zealots to go in first to get EMPed. Of course, you have to move back your colossi so stalkers can deal with the viking, protect immortals/MSC/sentries, etc. This can be as difficult as split, but since it's not so fancy on screen, most people won't even notice the difference. Also, like split, you can do most of work before the engagement. 2. Blink and target fire vikings with stalkers. This is about the same difficulty as kiting zealots. 3. Guardian shield. No-brainer. 4. Time warp. Half no-brainer. 5. Forcefield. Difficulty depends of actual scenario. Forcefield can be really no-brainer or it can be the hardest thing in SC2. 6. Avoiding Ghosts and drop storm. This is as difficult as Ghost EMP/Sniping HT, if not more difficult. But as mentioned above, a few good storm will wreck Terran bio ball, so Ghost vs HTs usually won't end well for Terran. However, skill required is about the same. Different micros are required for different race. OP simply presenting what he knows and understand, ignoring what he doesn't know or pretend like it doesn't exist. For example, for Jjakji vs Elfi game. OP said that Show nested quote +jjakji controls every part of his army: bio, Vikings, Ghosts; elfi doesn't even try to protect his Colossi from free shots and focuses nothing particular with his Stalkers. The superiority of Protoss' design..; I'm pretty sure "superiority of Protoss design" gives Protoss player free upgrade advantage and army supply as well. Elfi completed 3/3 near 5 minutes before the engagement and was working on shield upgrade. Jjakji, on the other hand, had only 2/2 and 3/3 was not even half way done. Not mentioning that Elfi had near 30 more army supply up. That's why zealots are not dying...they outnumbered and out-upgraded Terran bio. OP mentioned none of these.
You are wrong.
Allow me to demonstrate.
I decided to tally up every single action I could see during two huge late game engagements by Maru vs. Zest in RO16, two reigning champions of their races, both renowned for their battle control (I think only Parting might have Zest beat amongst the Protoss). I typed in "Maru vs Zest," clicked the first game I saw, jumped forward in time until the late game was upon us (~37 minutes into the vid), and then I started counting every single action I could see in combat.
Maru - individually positions 6 Widow Mines as the battle starts, each in a different location, I counted 8 separate actions
Zest - Blink (1 click)
Zest - Zealot runby (1 click)
Maru - Stim and small poke to pull Protoss army, kites once, reinforces with another small group (that means he's not relying on hotkeys). During this entire time, Zest issued a single move command to stop his army from getting pulled out of position. Minimum 6-7 clicks for Maru.
Maru - Intercepts Zealot runby, two EMPs, moves Ghosts to keep them safe - minimum of 4 clicks. Zest doesn't try to chase the Ghosts or anything fancy, no micro.
Zest - Blink, places HTs in Warp Prism and moves it around menacingly, that's 4-5 clicks
Maru - kites 4 times (8 click)
Maru - small poke (minimum 2 click)
Zest - Storm x2
Maru - split x2
Zest - did something with the Warp Prism HT that I couldn't find, let's say it's a Storm (2 click)
Maru - kite x4 (8 click)
Zest - pulls back half of his army (1 click), Guardian Shield, Blink x2
Second battle starts:
Maru - small poke, HT snipe (2-3 clicks)
Zest - Storm, Archon morph, Guardian Shield, PO (4 clicks)
Maru - Scan, EMP x2
Zest - Blink
Maru - Scan, EMP x3, kites 6 times (16 click)
Zest - Feedback, HTs poke
Maru - EMP, Ghosts poke, Ghost retreat
Zest - Archon morph, Storm
Maru - Scan, EMP x2
Zest - Blink, Storm x2
And then it turns out that Maru was macroing perfectly the entire time and Zest has a bank of 1500/600, so Zest gets rolled despite taking both fights.
Going with conservative estimates on all of Maru's micro, that was 67 separate actions. Plus there were at least 3 Stims throughout those fights, so let's give him a nice, round 70. Let's go the generous estimates for Zest. Twenty eight. 70 vs. 28. With somewhere between a third and a half of Maru's actions, Zest favorably takes the first engagement and comes out around even in the second.
Are there clicks that I'm not seeing? You'd better find 40 for Zest somewhere between those two engagements if you want me to seriously take your claim that Protoss, in the hands of the most micro-intensive players the race has, no less, takes as much control as Terran.
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On July 08 2014 08:30 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2014 13:19 Macbex wrote:I think OP has very good understanding of current meta and very solid understanding of Terran, but not so much about Protoss and Zerg. I'll point out one. I agree with most of arguments, especially widowmine nerf part and blink menace part. However,
Losing at the lottery is one thing; an utterly inferior lategame is another; but for Terran, the most depressing aspect of the match-up is probably the massive contrast in control needed to handle a Protoss and a Terran army in large engagements.
this is not simply not true. Amount of micro required for late-game Protoss army is about the same as late-game Terran army. In ultimate Protoss deathball vs Terran Bio Deathball, Terran have to do: 1. Split to minimize AoE damage. This is pretty hard, especially to dodge storm, but unless you caught off guard, you can always pre-split before the battle. 2. Kiting zealots. As fancy as it may looks, this is not hard at all. 3. Viking snipe colossi. Difficulty of this depends on upgrades and numbers. When there are at least 3 viking for one colossi, this is as simple as right click. 4. Ghost snipe and EMP HTs and rest of Protoss army. This, in my opinion, is the hardest part. Ghost does have longer range compare to HT (Snipe and EMP are both range 10, where Feedback and Storm are both range 9) and cloak, but Terran player have to remove majority, if not most, of HTs in time. Even a few storm can produce a devastating effect to Terran army. You thought that was hard? Well, it is. Harder than Protoss? Not quite. Well, let's look at Protoss part. Many Protoss micro are simply ignored because it's doesn't appear in screen. Here we go: 1. Positioning and engagement timing. Majority of people watching late-game Protoss army thinks all Protoss player have to do is group and a-move and drop few storms. This is simply wrong. If that's all you do, you hardly make above Plat. If positioned incorrectly, more than half of late game Protoss death-ball won't shooting at all. Also, if you placed all your zealot in front (wait? aren't we suppose to do so? well...not quite), all of them will hit by EMP and instantly lose near half of your tank and possible you lose your game as well. Ideally, you want to portion of your archon and zealots to go in first to get EMPed. Of course, you have to move back your colossi so stalkers can deal with the viking, protect immortals/MSC/sentries, etc. This can be as difficult as split, but since it's not so fancy on screen, most people won't even notice the difference. Also, like split, you can do most of work before the engagement. 2. Blink and target fire vikings with stalkers. This is about the same difficulty as kiting zealots. 3. Guardian shield. No-brainer. 4. Time warp. Half no-brainer. 5. Forcefield. Difficulty depends of actual scenario. Forcefield can be really no-brainer or it can be the hardest thing in SC2. 6. Avoiding Ghosts and drop storm. This is as difficult as Ghost EMP/Sniping HT, if not more difficult. But as mentioned above, a few good storm will wreck Terran bio ball, so Ghost vs HTs usually won't end well for Terran. However, skill required is about the same. Different micros are required for different race. OP simply presenting what he knows and understand, ignoring what he doesn't know or pretend like it doesn't exist. For example, for Jjakji vs Elfi game. OP said that jjakji controls every part of his army: bio, Vikings, Ghosts; elfi doesn't even try to protect his Colossi from free shots and focuses nothing particular with his Stalkers. The superiority of Protoss' design..; I'm pretty sure "superiority of Protoss design" gives Protoss player free upgrade advantage and army supply as well. Elfi completed 3/3 near 5 minutes before the engagement and was working on shield upgrade. Jjakji, on the other hand, had only 2/2 and 3/3 was not even half way done. Not mentioning that Elfi had near 30 more army supply up. That's why zealots are not dying...they outnumbered and out-upgraded Terran bio. OP mentioned none of these. You are wrong. Allow me to demonstrate. I decided to tally up every single action I could see during two huge late game engagements by Maru vs. Zest in RO16, two reigning champions of their races, both renowned for their battle control (I think only Parting might have Zest beat amongst the Protoss). I typed in "Maru vs Zest," clicked the first game I saw, jumped forward in time until the late game was upon us (~37 minutes into the vid), and then I started counting every single action I could see in combat. Maru - individually positions 6 Widow Mines as the battle starts, each in a different location, I counted 8 separate actions Zest - Blink (1 click) Zest - Zealot runby (1 click) Maru - Stim and small poke to pull Protoss army, kites once, reinforces with another small group (that means he's not relying on hotkeys). During this entire time, Zest issued a single move command to stop his army from getting pulled out of position. Minimum 6-7 clicks for Maru. Maru - Intercepts Zealot runby, two EMPs, moves Ghosts to keep them safe - minimum of 4 clicks. Zest doesn't try to chase the Ghosts or anything fancy, no micro. Zest - Blink, places HTs in Warp Prism and moves it around menacingly, that's 4-5 clicks Maru - kites 4 times (8 click) Maru - small poke (minimum 2 click) Zest - Storm x2 Maru - split x2 Zest - did something with the Warp Prism HT that I couldn't find, let's say it's a Storm (2 click) Maru - kite x4 (8 click) Zest - pulls back half of his army (1 click), Guardian Shield, Blink x2 Second battle starts: Maru - small poke, HT snipe (2-3 clicks) Zest - Storm, Archon morph, Guardian Shield, PO (4 clicks) Maru - Scan, EMP x2 Zest - Blink Maru - Scan, EMP x3, kites 6 times (16 click) Zest - Feedback, HTs poke Maru - EMP, Ghosts poke, Ghost retreat Zest - Archon morph, Storm Maru - Scan, EMP x2 Zest - Blink, Storm x2 And then it turns out that Maru was macroing perfectly the entire time and Zest has a bank of 1500/600, so Zest gets rolled despite taking both fights. Going with conservative estimates on all of Maru's micro, that was 67 separate actions. Plus there were at least 3 Stims throughout those fights, so let's give him a nice, round 70. Let's go the generous estimates for Zest. Twenty eight. 70 vs. 28. With somewhere between a third and a half of Maru's actions, Zest favorably takes the first engagement and comes out around even in the second. Are there clicks that I'm not seeing? You'd better find 40 for Zest somewhere between those two engagements if you want me to seriously take your claim that Protoss, in the hands of the most micro-intensive players the race has, no less, takes as much control as Terran.
That must have taken a lot of time to put together.
Wish there was a way to do this quickly using the computer to get a similar analysis out of dozens or hundreds of games. Have always been curious to see just how many clicks it takes for a Terran army to be controlled vs the other two races.
I also know Zerg macro takes a fair amount of clicks. Want to see that tallied up as well in some kind of comparison scenario vs Terran macro.
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What does Boxer, Flash, Thorzain, Ganzi, TLO, Taeja, Scarlett and MMA have in common?
Answer: they all developed wrist problems while playing terran. Except Scarlett, she's playing zerg.
Clearly terran players are just the weaker physiques that can't handle a exhausting game like starcraft as well as the zerg and protoss.
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On July 08 2014 08:59 neptunusfisk wrote:
What does Boxer, Flash, Thorzain, Ganzi, TLO, Taeja, Scarlett and MMA have in common?
Answer: they all developed wrist problems while playing terran. Except Scarlett, she's playing zerg.
Clearly terran players are just the weaker physiques that can't handle a exhausting game like starcraft as well as the zerg and protoss.
Maru and TLO (not sure if he was Terran or Zerg at the time) round out the list as far as I know.
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On July 08 2014 08:59 neptunusfisk wrote:
What does Boxer, Flash, Thorzain, Ganzi, TLO, Taeja, Scarlett and MMA have in common?
Answer: they all developed wrist problems while playing terran. Except Scarlett, she's playing zerg.
Clearly terran players are just the weaker physiques that can't handle a exhausting game like starcraft as well as the zerg and protoss.
Thorzain, who played a lot slower than most progamers?
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On July 08 2014 08:59 neptunusfisk wrote:
What does Boxer, Flash, Thorzain, Ganzi, TLO, Taeja, Scarlett and MMA have in common?
Answer: they all developed wrist problems while playing terran. Except Scarlett, she's playing zerg.
Clearly terran players are just the weaker physiques that can't handle a exhausting game like starcraft as well as the zerg and protoss.
Flash had wrist problems since bw. BW terran was extremely mechanically demanding as well.
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the article's genius, theDwf always has such good input
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On July 08 2014 08:30 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2014 13:19 Macbex wrote:I think OP has very good understanding of current meta and very solid understanding of Terran, but not so much about Protoss and Zerg. I'll point out one. I agree with most of arguments, especially widowmine nerf part and blink menace part. However,
Losing at the lottery is one thing; an utterly inferior lategame is another; but for Terran, the most depressing aspect of the match-up is probably the massive contrast in control needed to handle a Protoss and a Terran army in large engagements.
this is not simply not true. Amount of micro required for late-game Protoss army is about the same as late-game Terran army. In ultimate Protoss deathball vs Terran Bio Deathball, Terran have to do: 1. Split to minimize AoE damage. This is pretty hard, especially to dodge storm, but unless you caught off guard, you can always pre-split before the battle. 2. Kiting zealots. As fancy as it may looks, this is not hard at all. 3. Viking snipe colossi. Difficulty of this depends on upgrades and numbers. When there are at least 3 viking for one colossi, this is as simple as right click. 4. Ghost snipe and EMP HTs and rest of Protoss army. This, in my opinion, is the hardest part. Ghost does have longer range compare to HT (Snipe and EMP are both range 10, where Feedback and Storm are both range 9) and cloak, but Terran player have to remove majority, if not most, of HTs in time. Even a few storm can produce a devastating effect to Terran army. You thought that was hard? Well, it is. Harder than Protoss? Not quite. Well, let's look at Protoss part. Many Protoss micro are simply ignored because it's doesn't appear in screen. Here we go: 1. Positioning and engagement timing. Majority of people watching late-game Protoss army thinks all Protoss player have to do is group and a-move and drop few storms. This is simply wrong. If that's all you do, you hardly make above Plat. If positioned incorrectly, more than half of late game Protoss death-ball won't shooting at all. Also, if you placed all your zealot in front (wait? aren't we suppose to do so? well...not quite), all of them will hit by EMP and instantly lose near half of your tank and possible you lose your game as well. Ideally, you want to portion of your archon and zealots to go in first to get EMPed. Of course, you have to move back your colossi so stalkers can deal with the viking, protect immortals/MSC/sentries, etc. This can be as difficult as split, but since it's not so fancy on screen, most people won't even notice the difference. Also, like split, you can do most of work before the engagement. 2. Blink and target fire vikings with stalkers. This is about the same difficulty as kiting zealots. 3. Guardian shield. No-brainer. 4. Time warp. Half no-brainer. 5. Forcefield. Difficulty depends of actual scenario. Forcefield can be really no-brainer or it can be the hardest thing in SC2. 6. Avoiding Ghosts and drop storm. This is as difficult as Ghost EMP/Sniping HT, if not more difficult. But as mentioned above, a few good storm will wreck Terran bio ball, so Ghost vs HTs usually won't end well for Terran. However, skill required is about the same. Different micros are required for different race. OP simply presenting what he knows and understand, ignoring what he doesn't know or pretend like it doesn't exist. For example, for Jjakji vs Elfi game. OP said that jjakji controls every part of his army: bio, Vikings, Ghosts; elfi doesn't even try to protect his Colossi from free shots and focuses nothing particular with his Stalkers. The superiority of Protoss' design..; I'm pretty sure "superiority of Protoss design" gives Protoss player free upgrade advantage and army supply as well. Elfi completed 3/3 near 5 minutes before the engagement and was working on shield upgrade. Jjakji, on the other hand, had only 2/2 and 3/3 was not even half way done. Not mentioning that Elfi had near 30 more army supply up. That's why zealots are not dying...they outnumbered and out-upgraded Terran bio. OP mentioned none of these. You are wrong. Allow me to demonstrate. I decided to tally up every single action I could see during two huge late game engagements by Maru vs. Zest in RO16, two reigning champions of their races, both renowned for their battle control (I think only Parting might have Zest beat amongst the Protoss). I typed in "Maru vs Zest," clicked the first game I saw, jumped forward in time until the late game was upon us (~37 minutes into the vid), and then I started counting every single action I could see in combat. Maru - individually positions 6 Widow Mines as the battle starts, each in a different location, I counted 8 separate actions Zest - Blink (1 click) Zest - Zealot runby (1 click) Maru - Stim and small poke to pull Protoss army, kites once, reinforces with another small group (that means he's not relying on hotkeys). During this entire time, Zest issued a single move command to stop his army from getting pulled out of position. Minimum 6-7 clicks for Maru. Maru - Intercepts Zealot runby, two EMPs, moves Ghosts to keep them safe - minimum of 4 clicks. Zest doesn't try to chase the Ghosts or anything fancy, no micro. Zest - Blink, places HTs in Warp Prism and moves it around menacingly, that's 4-5 clicks Maru - kites 4 times (8 click) Maru - small poke (minimum 2 click) Zest - Storm x2 Maru - split x2 Zest - did something with the Warp Prism HT that I couldn't find, let's say it's a Storm (2 click) Maru - kite x4 (8 click) Zest - pulls back half of his army (1 click), Guardian Shield, Blink x2 Second battle starts: Maru - small poke, HT snipe (2-3 clicks) Zest - Storm, Archon morph, Guardian Shield, PO (4 clicks) Maru - Scan, EMP x2 Zest - Blink Maru - Scan, EMP x3, kites 6 times (16 click) Zest - Feedback, HTs poke Maru - EMP, Ghosts poke, Ghost retreat Zest - Archon morph, Storm Maru - Scan, EMP x2 Zest - Blink, Storm x2 And then it turns out that Maru was macroing perfectly the entire time and Zest has a bank of 1500/600, so Zest gets rolled despite taking both fights. Going with conservative estimates on all of Maru's micro, that was 67 separate actions. Plus there were at least 3 Stims throughout those fights, so let's give him a nice, round 70. Let's go the generous estimates for Zest. Twenty eight. 70 vs. 28. With somewhere between a third and a half of Maru's actions, Zest favorably takes the first engagement and comes out around even in the second. Are there clicks that I'm not seeing? You'd better find 40 for Zest somewhere between those two engagements if you want me to seriously take your claim that Protoss, in the hands of the most micro-intensive players the race has, no less, takes as much control as Terran.
Just want to add that most Korean Pro Terrans also micro their medivacs during engagements.
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Protoss just have won all three WCS tournies (EU, KOR, AM) this season.
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Excellent editorial. I hope David Kim reads this and understand that the problem lies in the very limited options terran has, but I doubt he will bother.
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Great read. Hope it gets a view by Blizz staff.
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On July 08 2014 08:59 neptunusfisk wrote:
What does Boxer, Flash, Thorzain, Ganzi, TLO, Taeja, Scarlett and MMA have in common?
Answer: they all developed wrist problems while playing terran. Except Scarlett, she's playing zerg.
Clearly terran players are just the weaker physiques that can't handle a exhausting game like starcraft as well as the zerg and protoss.
You forgot MVP. And I don't think he ever played at the same level after his surgery. See Terran is bad for your health!
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P players are better at winning tournaments? You know, it's not really sufficient to just post stats and say "hey, OBVIOUSLY there's an issue here". We need to establish that winning more tournaments actually is a result of imbalance.
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On July 08 2014 12:49 Fission wrote: P players are better at winning tournaments? You know, it's not really sufficient to just post stats and say "hey, OBVIOUSLY there's an issue here". We need to establish that winning more tournaments actually is a result of imbalance.
LOL what? Then why the significantly skewed statistics? That's like saying, "We find a correlation between smokers and lung cancer, but we need people to keep smoking to find an exact mortality rate based on consumption."
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On July 08 2014 12:57 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 12:49 Fission wrote: P players are better at winning tournaments? You know, it's not really sufficient to just post stats and say "hey, OBVIOUSLY there's an issue here". We need to establish that winning more tournaments actually is a result of imbalance. LOL what? Then why the significantly skewed statistics? That's like saying, "We find a correlation between smokers and lung cancer, but we need people to keep smoking to find an exact mortality rate based on consumption."
Maybe the skewed statistics are due to the fact that P players, on a whole, are better than their Z and T counterparts
.+ Show Spoiler +I don't actually believe this
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On July 08 2014 12:57 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 12:49 Fission wrote: P players are better at winning tournaments? You know, it's not really sufficient to just post stats and say "hey, OBVIOUSLY there's an issue here". We need to establish that winning more tournaments actually is a result of imbalance. LOL what? Then why the significantly skewed statistics? That's like saying, "We find a correlation between smokers and lung cancer, but we need people to keep smoking to find an exact mortality rate based on consumption."
Getting cancer is not a skill-based activity. Plus, how would you balance smoking so people can smoke more without getting cancer?
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Terran is undeniably the most mechanically demanding of the races, thus giving it the highest skill ceiling. Perhaps Blizzard should experiment with ways to either make it less demanding, or make other races more demanding (like storm become a channel ability). Why would you play the race that needs to watch 4 screens at once and command 4 separate armies to be effective when I can just swarm or death ball? The only equivalent strategy that Terran has is Mech, which is not used because there's no support for it.
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On July 08 2014 06:23 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 02:43 Heartland wrote:
Protoss late game PvT is centered around retreating from the Terran army while performing a complicated set of tasks revolving around whittling the Terran army down. It involves flanking Templars from every potential direction, Blink Stalkers to snipe off Vikings, Medivacs and Ghosts. The Protoss army tries to find a favourable engagement against the Terran, but it is extremely stressful. Getting EMPed, or having your Colossus bunch up and lose one or two volleys as they get shot by Vikings often means the end of the game.
In battle you have to make sure that Stalkers and Archons fight off vikings, that you storm, use 5+ abilities, that Colossus don't bunch up, that Templars don't all get EMPed or sniped, etc.
So no, it's not fucking a-move. I wrote up a very large post, but before I post it, I'd like to be sure... Are you just pissed off that people are saying that engaging as Protoss takes absolutely no skill? Or are you implying (as I thought when I started my writeup) that Protoss is as, or close to as, mechanically demanding as Terran? Cuz if it's just the former, then I agree completely and I just wasted 20 minutes. :D
Right here I am just saying the former.
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On July 08 2014 14:04 Foreverkul wrote:
Terran is undeniably the most mechanically demanding of the races, thus giving it the highest skill ceiling. Perhaps Blizzard should experiment with ways to either make it less demanding, or make other races more demanding (like storm become a channel ability). Why would you play the race that needs to watch 4 screens at once and command 4 separate armies to be effective when I can just swarm or death ball? The only equivalent strategy that Terran has is Mech, which is not used because there's no support for it.
It's pretty undeniable that Terran has the most stupid players when readimg these kinds of posts and gets one thinking whether the true reason why they are underperforming is that their players are selfentitled scrubs that think shift clicking a dropship is controlling 4 screens. But then again, there's a ton of reasonable Terrans as well and i shouldnt be drawing conclusions from Foreverkul to someone like Taeja.
User was warned for this post
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EPT
