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On May 07 2014 03:13 tyranolol wrote:
Yeah surely, change the abduct, so there is no way to kill colossi and tempest, gg wp mr kim, if you want to kill Z please say it directly, if you want everything TvT, PvT and PvP is ok you can say it clearly, PvZ matchup en last code S season one was a bit favoured to the P and you nerf the viper abduct? Seriously Facepalm
No useful comment and hardly read the post omg what you serious ggwp mr tyranotroll rofl seriously facepalm
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On May 07 2014 02:46 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
Well at least they're paying attention. Stephano pretty much shoved it in their faces this weekend >_>
I don't know if I like these but at these they seem to be more drastic changes than what I'd normally expect. Which is a good thing in this case.
I think they're narrowly missing the mark on the hydralisk though. I think the unit needs a flat buff to biological units in general, not just aerial-biological. That might put a dent in the roach dominance of the matchup and further diversify things.
Stephano has been shoving it in their faces ever since he started streaming again after retiring.
I honestly believe the entire reason he's back in the picture is to showcase how ridiculous the Swarm Host is.
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On May 07 2014 03:10 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:08 Noocta wrote:
I don't know for you, but it's pretty obvious to me that Blizzard doesn't want to mess with design too much, even in expansions....
And what evidence have you got? BroodWar? That expansion that redesigned the Infestor and reaper, made Medivacs feared dropships, amongst a ton of other slight adjustments for the better? Don't tell me HotS is worse than WoL. Please.
Yeah, and the Infestor change is good example of something that should have been done in a patch 4 months before HotS that wasn't.
That's why we'll probably never get anything more than units tweaks in LotV when a lot of people would like deep design changes. HotS is better than WoL, but it didn't prevent the game to get back to the level of popularity it had during the end of WoL.
The same will happen to LotV unless they stop being scared of screwing up, and there's no 3rd expansion to fall back on this time.
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Make nydus worms cost less if you build them on creep.
i.e. nydus canal
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On May 07 2014 03:13 Yakikorosu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:08 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:03 Yakikorosu wrote:
I am happy Blizzard is thinking about this, but their biggest error is the seeming assumption that swarm hosts are only a problem in ZvZ. Yes, we've seen a few swarm host stalemate ZvZ lately (thanks Stephano), but we've seen much more ZvP (and even probably more ZvT) dragged out swarm host games than in ZvZ. Swarm Host vs Swarm Host may be more obviously ridiculous than Swarm Host vs. colossus/tempest or Swarm Host vs. tank/raven, but they're all equally dumb and boring. In the long term, it should just be removed and replaced with another unit.
In the short term, just place a cap on swarm hosts. A player isn't allowed to have more than 10 swarm hosts out at a time (the number can be adjusted up or down a little bit). Done. 20 locusts is still a strong amount to integrate INTO a composition like we see from players who are, you know, good at something other than turtling (watch the recent Soulkey vs Flash SPL game). One of the exciting things for me is, we see way less of this Swarmhost Stalemate play and a lot more dynamic games. Attacking into Swarm Host is something that requires some learning and experimenting, just like the Widow Mines did. See First vs Snute from TakeTV UltraHD Cup (or whatever it was named :D). In my opinion, the only matchup in which Hosts are only counterable by All Ins + Banelings OR Hosts, is ZvZ. T and P are starting to learn how to deal with them. Somehow, even Terran Mech is more mobile than Hosts. I don't really agree that SH are fine in ZvT and ZvP. The only reason it seems that way is that few players of any significance are currently as dead-set on abusing swarm hosts with turtling and static defenses in recent days. Trust me, if he doesn't retire soon, Stephano will change this, and other players will follow suit. So yes, another way to fix the swarm host is to ban Stephano from SC2. :D
Hahaha 
In my opinion, in ZvP and ZvT there's room for more devellopment and it is too early for a major redesign.
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United States45 Posts
On May 07 2014 02:36 SC2Toastie wrote:
It's great that they are so much more open nowadays!
Here's to hoping Psione will respond on these forums as well :D
I post here from time to time, but I'm always lurking.
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On May 07 2014 03:15 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 02:46 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
Well at least they're paying attention. Stephano pretty much shoved it in their faces this weekend >_>
I don't know if I like these but at these they seem to be more drastic changes than what I'd normally expect. Which is a good thing in this case.
I think they're narrowly missing the mark on the hydralisk though. I think the unit needs a flat buff to biological units in general, not just aerial-biological. That might put a dent in the roach dominance of the matchup and further diversify things. Stephano has been shoving it in their faces ever since he started streaming again after retiring. I honestly believe the entire reason he's back in the picture is to showcase how ridiculous the Swarm Host is.
He is back to save sc2!
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On May 07 2014 03:14 DavoS wrote:
Nerf the cost on nydus worms! it was awesome in early HotS when swarm hosts were burrowing all over the map attacking every base at once. And add a really really cheap hive upgrade that makes queens build twice as fast or something
Buff or reduce, nerf would mean increase the cost 
I like the Queen comment, by the way :D!
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Seriously, buff tanks. Bomber vs Polt game where Bomber only made Marines and Medivacs (and won) shows that Tanks could use a buff even for TvT.
Tanks are just way too insignificant for their resource, build-time, and infrastructure cost. Not to mention their immobility. It's ok that tanks get countered by immortals and what not, but they should be able to threaten cheap, massable units like marines and zerglings with a similar impact to collosus or storms or ultras/banes.
Not saying that 1 tank should equal 1 collosus. But we all know that tanks are not nearly as feared as collosi or banelings - and for good reason. Tanks are shit, and have been shit for so long.
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On May 07 2014 03:16 Psione wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 02:36 SC2Toastie wrote:
It's great that they are so much more open nowadays!
Here's to hoping Psione will respond on these forums as well :D I post here from time to time, but I'm always lurking.
Excellent!
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Reverting spore buff/buffing hydras vs biological air: Why not, far more interesting than static death zones where no zerg flying units can live.
Nerfing abduct: This outright breaks ZvP and late game mech ZvT. Absolutely not even remotely possible.
They could try to address the actual issue that promote SH play in the late game, but I CBA to write up another essay on it. Suffice to say, if we want to truly fix this problem, we need to look at macro mechanics, economy model and various other issues as well. Zerg literally cannot function without hosts in the late game, it is the only unit that allows some kind of parity vs the protoss or mech death ball.
I'm highly skeptical about this, I don't see any good coming out of blizzard trying another hamfisted band aid. You've fucked up some pretty basic things about the game and the host is the symptom, not the cause. Either acknowledge and deal with the bigger problems, or just leave well enough alone.
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Baneling catapult upgrade. Problem solved.
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On May 07 2014 03:16 Psione wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 02:36 SC2Toastie wrote:
It's great that they are so much more open nowadays!
Here's to hoping Psione will respond on these forums as well :D I post here from time to time, but I'm always lurking.
You are doing great work, keep it up! Did that raise in proposed on Reddit go through yet?
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On May 07 2014 03:10 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:03 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:00 Sapphire.lux wrote:On May 07 2014 02:50 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 02:48 Noocta wrote:On May 07 2014 02:46 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 02:45 Musicus wrote:
My worry is, if they once again ignore the SH and instead change other units to counter it, what happnes once they tackle the root of the problem and change or remove it with LotV? Do they change Abduct or the Hydra back again? It's an expansion, they can do anything. They can but they won't. It's obvious at this point David Kim doesn't want or can't change anything deep from the game. No, Duh. They're in the middle of the WCS season. Deleting/Nerfing/Redesigning a unit that is getting reasonable use in three matchups, not to mention it's necessity verse turtleToss, is the best way to fuck over a lot of Zerg players. In expansion, he'll get a new beta and will be able to test big changes. You can't blame the guy for not fucking every Zerg competing for money over. This type of excuse has got to stop. The game has had severe balance issues more then a few times over the years and many players were "fucked over", sometimes by Blizzards reluctance to act (BL/Inf for one). If there is ever an acceptable reason to do potentially destabilizing changes is when those changes are for the greater good of the game. SC2 is not some Holly Grail of balance and entertainment that should not be disturbed. If they are not doing more serious changes is because they can't or don't want to in order to keep them for the expansion, not the poor x race players. You know, on one hand there's people complaining balancing happens to often. Then there's people that want Blizzard to respond to every tiny fucking shift in winrates possible. Offcourse they will not mess with balance for the reason of redesigning a unit because it gives problems in a tiny percentage of mirror matchups! Broodlord Infestor was so hard to figure out and solve. It's easy to bash and stomp on everything they come up with and not bring up any usable argument yourself. Why provide useful feed back when you can just say "redesign swarm host/warp gate/colossi/sentries" and them claim blizzard made it bad on purpose to sell us on more expansions? The redesign argument is so old. It might as well be called "fix it in a way I approve of, but I'm not gong to tell you what I would approve of."
well i agree with you to a point, but there is a point where one can say that blizzard has a responsibility to give us a good product since we are paying customers. unlike the dkim/blizz bashers, i understand it is very difficult to balance a competitive game, and i do prefer to focus on all the wonderful and positive things about the game. but if something is wrong with the product, we are entitled to complain about it without having an exact plan or alternative of our own. i'm not being paid to design games, so...
but yes, i think i agree with the spirit of what you are saying some people just want to find things to be angry about and want to make others as upset as they are because they don't like the game
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I definitely think blinding cloud is cooler than abduct. Please do this change.
Blinding cloud is an aoe spell similar to storm and emp that is less problematic than 1-click spells which are affected by army colission imbalances, such as air armies in PVZ that easily can get abducted for free with auto cost efficiency. Similar problems is seen in TVZ, though on a less scale.
Tempests will not be overpowred in PVZ since they are quickly disallowed for amassed production unless zerg goes ultra or swarm hosts, otherwise only rarely due to map structure. Blinding cloud buff would also be more effective against immortals as I am sure a lot of zergs would see improved as well.
I see absolutely no negative in implementing a blinding cloud buff and abduct targets-allowed change in a balance test map.
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On May 07 2014 03:03 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:00 Sapphire.lux wrote:On May 07 2014 02:50 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 02:48 Noocta wrote:On May 07 2014 02:46 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 02:45 Musicus wrote:
My worry is, if they once again ignore the SH and instead change other units to counter it, what happnes once they tackle the root of the problem and change or remove it with LotV? Do they change Abduct or the Hydra back again? It's an expansion, they can do anything. They can but they won't. It's obvious at this point David Kim doesn't want or can't change anything deep from the game. No, Duh. They're in the middle of the WCS season. Deleting/Nerfing/Redesigning a unit that is getting reasonable use in three matchups, not to mention it's necessity verse turtleToss, is the best way to fuck over a lot of Zerg players. In expansion, he'll get a new beta and will be able to test big changes. You can't blame the guy for not fucking every Zerg competing for money over. This type of excuse has got to stop. The game has had severe balance issues more then a few times over the years and many players were "fucked over", sometimes by Blizzards reluctance to act (BL/Inf for one). If there is ever an acceptable reason to do potentially destabilizing changes is when those changes are for the greater good of the game. SC2 is not some Holly Grail of balance and entertainment that should not be disturbed. If they are not doing more serious changes is because they can't or don't want to in order to keep them for the expansion, not the poor x race players. You know, on one hand there's people complaining balancing happens to often. Then there's people that want Blizzard to respond to every tiny fucking shift in winrates possible.
Since i'm neither i don't see the relevance of that.
Offcourse they will not mess with balance for the reason of redesigning a unit because it gives problems in a tiny percentage of mirror matchups!
It gave problems in all the Z MUs and it still does. You see, Blizzard themselfs admit "in the long term" they are looking at redesign. You minimizing the problem just doesn't hold water unfortunately.
Broodlord Infestor was so hard to figure out and solve.
No it wasn't. In the short term, for WOL, they could have reverted the Queen range buff and at least TvZ would have been salvaged.
It's easy to bash and stomp on everything they come up with and not bring up any usable argument yourself.
Very dramatic. SHs are bad for this games and i have many games to show it plus many people agreeing online, plus Blizz themselfs admitting redesign is on the table "for latter". That enough of an argument for you?
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Blindind Cloud is already really really strong. I hope they don't buff that shit.
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On May 07 2014 03:13 tyranolol wrote:
Yeah surely, change the abduct, so there is no way to kill colossi and tempest, gg wp mr kim, if you want to kill Z please say it directly, if you want everything TvT, PvT and PvP is ok you can say it clearly, PvZ matchup en last code S season one was a bit favoured to the P and you nerf the viper abduct? Seriously Facepalm
I made the part at the bottom bold to avoid posts like this... just why? 
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On May 07 2014 03:15 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:10 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:08 Noocta wrote:
I don't know for you, but it's pretty obvious to me that Blizzard doesn't want to mess with design too much, even in expansions....
And what evidence have you got? BroodWar? That expansion that redesigned the Infestor and reaper, made Medivacs feared dropships, amongst a ton of other slight adjustments for the better? Don't tell me HotS is worse than WoL. Please. Yeah, and the Infestor change is good example of something that should have been done in a patch 4 months before HotS that wasn't. That's why we'll probably never get anything more than units tweaks in LotV when a lot of people would like deep design changes. HotS is better than WoL, but it didn't prevent the game to get back to the level of popularity it had during the end of WoL. The same will happen to LotV unless they stop being scared of screwing up, and there's no 3rd expansion to fall back on this time.
I still haven't seen your solution.
Again, crapping on others is easy, producing something usable is a whole other matter.
I'm stop responding to your angry posts until you say something useful for now.
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On May 07 2014 03:16 plogamer wrote:
Seriously, buff tanks. Bomber vs Polt game where Bomber only made Marines and Medivacs (and won) shows that Tanks could use a buff even for TvT.
Tanks are just way too insignificant for their resource, build-time, and infrastructure cost. Not to mention their immobility. It's ok that tanks get countered by immortals and what not, but they should be able to threaten cheap, massable units like marines and zerglings with a similar impact to collosus or storms or ultras/banes.
Not saying that 1 tank should equal 1 collosus. But we all know that tanks are not nearly as feared as collosi or banelings - and for good reason. Tanks are shit, and have been shit for so long.
That also had to do with unsieged Tanks losing to marines and 100 marines beating 50...
That being said, I've been proposing greatly improved damage with lower attack speed for a while now
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EPT
