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On May 07 2014 03:01 Moonsalt wrote:
I agree 100% with the Hydra buff, so tired of who gets the spire first etc. But what about the swarm host? that does not mean there will be no games where both players will opt to get swarm hosts.....
That does mean mass Host+Static isn't viable anymore, which forces Zergs to invest in Defense verse Mutalisk in the form of A TON of Spores OR a number of Hydralisk, both cut into Host production.
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On May 07 2014 03:02 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 02:58 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 02:57 Noocta wrote:On May 07 2014 02:50 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 02:48 Noocta wrote:On May 07 2014 02:46 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 02:45 Musicus wrote:
My worry is, if they once again ignore the SH and instead change other units to counter it, what happnes once they tackle the root of the problem and change or remove it with LotV? Do they change Abduct or the Hydra back again? It's an expansion, they can do anything. They can but they won't. It's obvious at this point David Kim doesn't want or can't change anything deep from the game. No, Duh. They're in the middle of the WCS season. Deleting/Nerfing/Redesigning a unit that is getting reasonable use in three matchups, not to mention it's necessity verse turtleToss, is the best way to fuck over a lot of Zerg players. In expansion, he'll get a new beta and will be able to test big changes. You can't blame the guy for not fucking every Zerg competing for money over. I meant they won't do any big changes in the expansion either. Where did you acquire that future sight of yours? By looking at what they changed in HotS.
On May 07 2014 03:03 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 02:58 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 02:57 Noocta wrote:On May 07 2014 02:50 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 02:48 Noocta wrote:On May 07 2014 02:46 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 02:45 Musicus wrote:
My worry is, if they once again ignore the SH and instead change other units to counter it, what happnes once they tackle the root of the problem and change or remove it with LotV? Do they change Abduct or the Hydra back again? It's an expansion, they can do anything. They can but they won't. It's obvious at this point David Kim doesn't want or can't change anything deep from the game. No, Duh. They're in the middle of the WCS season. Deleting/Nerfing/Redesigning a unit that is getting reasonable use in three matchups, not to mention it's necessity verse turtleToss, is the best way to fuck over a lot of Zerg players. In expansion, he'll get a new beta and will be able to test big changes. You can't blame the guy for not fucking every Zerg competing for money over. I meant they won't do any big changes in the expansion either. Where did you acquire that future sight of yours? It's called "daed game" sight. Only the most powerful community members are blessed with it.
Apparantly.
In dutch there's an expression for this.
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I don't know for you, but it's pretty obvious to me that Blizzard doesn't want to mess with design too much, even in expansions....
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Norway839 Posts
The best fix for ZvZ is to just make the Brood Lord immune to Abduct.
Making abduct not work on Massive units would really mess with the other match-ups' endgames, it's tough as it is to deal with properly controlled sky terran and sky protoss
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On May 07 2014 02:58 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 02:56 ssxsilver wrote:
I hope some version of the hydra/spore change goes through. It was kinda silly seeing SH comps wreck BLs and I do miss seeing mutas in the match-up.
I also echo the sentiment of a lot of zerg players here in that Zerg T3 desperately needs looking into. Not sure how you can balance BLs and Ultras w/o making them snowball so hard, but I can't even remember the last time a series was decided by those units. When they're at it, let them look at Sieged Tanks, Thors , Ghosts v Z/T and BCs 
Just make them faster obviously!
On a more serious note, that hellbat buff may vary well stabilize Terran early game somewhat. It probably won't do anything for those units, but I kinda think we're about to see a more even distribution among the races soon.
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On May 07 2014 03:03 Yakikorosu wrote:
I am happy Blizzard is thinking about this, but their biggest error is the seeming assumption that swarm hosts are only a problem in ZvZ. Yes, we've seen a few swarm host stalemate ZvZ lately (thanks Stephano), but we've seen much more ZvP (and even probably more ZvT) dragged out swarm host games than in ZvZ. Swarm Host vs Swarm Host may be more obviously ridiculous than Swarm Host vs. colossus/tempest or Swarm Host vs. tank/raven, but they're all equally dumb and boring. In the long term, it should just be removed and replaced with another unit.
In the short term, just place a cap on swarm hosts. A player isn't allowed to have more than 10 swarm hosts out at a time (the number can be adjusted up or down a little bit). Done. 20 locusts is still a strong amount to integrate INTO a composition like we see from players who are, you know, good at something other than turtling (watch the recent Soulkey vs Flash SPL game).
One of the exciting things for me is, we see way less of this Swarmhost Stalemate play and a lot more dynamic games.
Attacking into Swarm Host is something that requires some learning and experimenting, just like the Widow Mines did. See First vs Snute from TakeTV UltraHD Cup (or whatever it was named :D).
In my opinion, the only matchup in which Hosts are only counterable by All Ins + Banelings OR Hosts, is ZvZ. T and P are starting to learn how to deal with them. Somehow, even Terran Mech is more mobile than Hosts.
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On May 07 2014 03:08 Liquid`Snute wrote:
The best fix for ZvZ is to just make the Brood Lord immune to Abduct.
Making abduct not work on Massive units would really mess with the other match-ups' endgames, it's tough as it is to deal with properly controlled sky terran and sky protoss
Wow I feel so smart now! Go Snute  .
+ Show Spoiler +On May 07 2014 02:58 Musicus wrote:
I think they should just release a patch: "Broodlords are immune to abduct". Give them a passive like the Ultralisk, that says exactly that and be done with it. I don't think anybody would complain.
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United States97276 Posts
On May 07 2014 03:08 Liquid`Snute wrote:
The best fix for ZvZ is to just make the Brood Lord immune to Abduct.
Making abduct not work on Massive units would really mess with the other match-ups' endgames, it's tough as it is to deal with properly controlled sky terran and sky protoss
I also think this is the best solution atm. But just wondering, what does this make late game ZvZ into? Does it go back to brood lord armies like WoL?
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If the problem is the swarmhost, redesign the swarmhost FFS
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On May 07 2014 03:03 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:00 Sapphire.lux wrote:On May 07 2014 02:50 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 02:48 Noocta wrote:On May 07 2014 02:46 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 02:45 Musicus wrote:
My worry is, if they once again ignore the SH and instead change other units to counter it, what happnes once they tackle the root of the problem and change or remove it with LotV? Do they change Abduct or the Hydra back again? It's an expansion, they can do anything. They can but they won't. It's obvious at this point David Kim doesn't want or can't change anything deep from the game. No, Duh. They're in the middle of the WCS season. Deleting/Nerfing/Redesigning a unit that is getting reasonable use in three matchups, not to mention it's necessity verse turtleToss, is the best way to fuck over a lot of Zerg players. In expansion, he'll get a new beta and will be able to test big changes. You can't blame the guy for not fucking every Zerg competing for money over. This type of excuse has got to stop. The game has had severe balance issues more then a few times over the years and many players were "fucked over", sometimes by Blizzards reluctance to act (BL/Inf for one). If there is ever an acceptable reason to do potentially destabilizing changes is when those changes are for the greater good of the game. SC2 is not some Holly Grail of balance and entertainment that should not be disturbed. If they are not doing more serious changes is because they can't or don't want to in order to keep them for the expansion, not the poor x race players. You know, on one hand there's people complaining balancing happens to often. Then there's people that want Blizzard to respond to every tiny fucking shift in winrates possible. Offcourse they will not mess with balance for the reason of redesigning a unit because it gives problems in a tiny percentage of mirror matchups! Broodlord Infestor was so hard to figure out and solve. It's easy to bash and stomp on everything they come up with and not bring up any usable argument yourself.
Why provide useful feed back when you can just say "redesign swarm host/warp gate/colossi/sentries" and them claim blizzard made it bad on purpose to sell us on more expansions?
The redesign argument is so old. It might as well be called "fix it in a way I approve of, but I'm not gong to tell you what I would approve of."
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On May 07 2014 03:08 Noocta wrote:
I don't know for you, but it's pretty obvious to me that Blizzard doesn't want to mess with design too much, even in expansions....
And what evidence have you got? BroodWar?
That expansion that redesigned the Infestor and reaper, made Medivacs feared dropships, amongst a ton of other slight adjustments for the better?
Don't tell me HotS is worse than WoL. Please.
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On May 07 2014 03:10 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:03 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:00 Sapphire.lux wrote:On May 07 2014 02:50 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 02:48 Noocta wrote:On May 07 2014 02:46 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 02:45 Musicus wrote:
My worry is, if they once again ignore the SH and instead change other units to counter it, what happnes once they tackle the root of the problem and change or remove it with LotV? Do they change Abduct or the Hydra back again? It's an expansion, they can do anything. They can but they won't. It's obvious at this point David Kim doesn't want or can't change anything deep from the game. No, Duh. They're in the middle of the WCS season. Deleting/Nerfing/Redesigning a unit that is getting reasonable use in three matchups, not to mention it's necessity verse turtleToss, is the best way to fuck over a lot of Zerg players. In expansion, he'll get a new beta and will be able to test big changes. You can't blame the guy for not fucking every Zerg competing for money over. This type of excuse has got to stop. The game has had severe balance issues more then a few times over the years and many players were "fucked over", sometimes by Blizzards reluctance to act (BL/Inf for one). If there is ever an acceptable reason to do potentially destabilizing changes is when those changes are for the greater good of the game. SC2 is not some Holly Grail of balance and entertainment that should not be disturbed. If they are not doing more serious changes is because they can't or don't want to in order to keep them for the expansion, not the poor x race players. You know, on one hand there's people complaining balancing happens to often. Then there's people that want Blizzard to respond to every tiny fucking shift in winrates possible. Offcourse they will not mess with balance for the reason of redesigning a unit because it gives problems in a tiny percentage of mirror matchups! Broodlord Infestor was so hard to figure out and solve. It's easy to bash and stomp on everything they come up with and not bring up any usable argument yourself. Why provide useful feed back when you can just say "redesign swarm host/warp gate/colossi/sentries" and them claim blizzard made it bad on purpose to sell us on more expansions? The redesign argument is so old. It might as well be called "fix it in a way I approve of, but I'm not gong to tell you what I would approve of."
Yep.
I'm just playing Devils (Davids) advocate for now, just to try and pull some "solutions" out of people.
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On May 07 2014 03:08 Liquid`Snute wrote:
The best fix for ZvZ is to just make the Brood Lord immune to Abduct.
Making abduct not work on Massive units would really mess with the other match-ups' endgames, it's tough as it is to deal with properly controlled sky terran and sky protoss
It would be a clunky fix.
What do you think of making Crawlers affected by Abduct?
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United States97276 Posts
On May 07 2014 03:11 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:08 Liquid`Snute wrote:
The best fix for ZvZ is to just make the Brood Lord immune to Abduct.
Making abduct not work on Massive units would really mess with the other match-ups' endgames, it's tough as it is to deal with properly controlled sky terran and sky protoss It would be a clunky fix. What do you think of making Crawlers affected by Abduct?
I think "why can only certain buildings be abducted?" is harder to pass off than "why can certain units not be abducted?" considering unit immunities have existed for so long
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Yeah surely, change the abduct, so there is no way to kill colossi and tempest, gg wp mr kim, if you want to kill Z please say it directly, if you want everything TvT, PvT and PvP is ok you can say it clearly, PvZ matchup en last code S season one was a bit favoured to the P and you nerf the viper abduct? Seriously Facepalm
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On May 07 2014 03:08 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:03 Yakikorosu wrote:
I am happy Blizzard is thinking about this, but their biggest error is the seeming assumption that swarm hosts are only a problem in ZvZ. Yes, we've seen a few swarm host stalemate ZvZ lately (thanks Stephano), but we've seen much more ZvP (and even probably more ZvT) dragged out swarm host games than in ZvZ. Swarm Host vs Swarm Host may be more obviously ridiculous than Swarm Host vs. colossus/tempest or Swarm Host vs. tank/raven, but they're all equally dumb and boring. In the long term, it should just be removed and replaced with another unit.
In the short term, just place a cap on swarm hosts. A player isn't allowed to have more than 10 swarm hosts out at a time (the number can be adjusted up or down a little bit). Done. 20 locusts is still a strong amount to integrate INTO a composition like we see from players who are, you know, good at something other than turtling (watch the recent Soulkey vs Flash SPL game). One of the exciting things for me is, we see way less of this Swarmhost Stalemate play and a lot more dynamic games. Attacking into Swarm Host is something that requires some learning and experimenting, just like the Widow Mines did. See First vs Snute from TakeTV UltraHD Cup (or whatever it was named :D). In my opinion, the only matchup in which Hosts are only counterable by All Ins + Banelings OR Hosts, is ZvZ. T and P are starting to learn how to deal with them. Somehow, even Terran Mech is more mobile than Hosts.
I don't really agree that SH are fine in ZvT and ZvP. The only reason it seems that way is that few players of any significance are currently as dead-set on abusing swarm hosts with turtling and static defenses in recent days. Trust me, if he doesn't retire soon, Stephano will change this, and other players will follow suit.
So yes, another way to fix the swarm host is to ban Stephano from SC2. :D
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On May 07 2014 02:35 myRZeth wrote:
yet again they ignore the real problem:
the swarmhost
No, they want broodlords to be the answer. But they're acknowledging that it's not currently an option because they keep getting abducted into spores.
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On May 07 2014 03:12 Shellshock wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:11 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:08 Liquid`Snute wrote:
The best fix for ZvZ is to just make the Brood Lord immune to Abduct.
Making abduct not work on Massive units would really mess with the other match-ups' endgames, it's tough as it is to deal with properly controlled sky terran and sky protoss It would be a clunky fix. What do you think of making Crawlers affected by Abduct? I think "why can only certain buildings be abducted?" is harder to pass off than "why can certain units not be abducted?" considering unit immunities have existed for so long
That's true. Whatever happens with Abduct, it'd be an ugly change.
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I hate both abduct and swarm host so a better fix would be to perhaps enable a veto against zerg on the ladder
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Nerf the cost on nydus worms! it was awesome in early HotS when swarm hosts were burrowing all over the map attacking every base at once. And add a really really cheap hive upgrade that makes queens build twice as fast or something
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EPT
