EPTIs Swarm host in zvz really a thing?? Come on now no one in NA or Korea uses it. Blizzard really considering making drastic changes because a few obnoxious EU pros are using it to stall out Tournaments??? ZvZ for rest of the world is roach vs roach muta into roach ect. Stephano is like the only person along with a few EU players that do that anyways, and they do it to make the other guy mad lol.
Blizzard's thoughts on Swarm Hosts - Page 11
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LingBlingBling
United States353 Posts
Is Swarm host in zvz really a thing?? Come on now no one in NA or Korea uses it. Blizzard really considering making drastic changes because a few obnoxious EU pros are using it to stall out Tournaments??? ZvZ for rest of the world is roach vs roach muta into roach ect. Stephano is like the only person along with a few EU players that do that anyways, and they do it to make the other guy mad lol. | ||
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Ercster
United States603 Posts
On May 07 2014 04:05 Falling wrote: It's still not a good solution. It basically acknowledges that they've made a unit that snowballs too well, but doesn't change the underlying cause on why it snowballs. Plus the swarmhost doesn't really even have special spells that would make it even feel like a hero unit like the Mothership. (And I never liked the idea of a mothership in the first place.) I mean, realistically this could be the solution to any unit composition problem. Marauders are too good and Terran will only make pure marauders to snipe everything on the ground and shrug off air attacks. Solution? You can only make 20 marauders... or fix the reason why Terran only goes marauders every game. It sounds like they want a short term fix, though. Long term would be to change what makes them good in a comp, and that doesn't seem likely in this expansion. It's kinda the reason why I presented the idea of the unit cap. It wasn't to be the end all solution to the unit, but for the time being it might fix the problems it has until they decide to rework the unit. | ||
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Ganseng
Russian Federation473 Posts
finally they spoke of making massive units immune to abduct hope that goes through it's so disgusting to see huge amounts of resources get destroyed instantly with one spell i'm sure one can make the game balanced without a spell that basically kills the capital units instantly i personally would make massive immune to abduct, and decrease abduct cost to 50e, so that it's used more often against non-massive units | ||
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NLWiNtER
Hungary11 Posts
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superpanda27
111 Posts
Man... I felt so dirty because by the end there was a 30k resource difference in resources lost. My opponent I think only killed about 5-6 swarm hosts and was consistently one base ahead of me and outmined me heavily. The other game was a ZvT on Sejong Station, where I went to a swarm host muta composition against bio. My opponent couldn't handle the constant locusts on his third bases and was being pulled away by mutas flying in. I would say I turtled up, but I tried being aggressive with the SH. However, my opponent kept moving (I would say luckily) his units everytime I moved my SH into aggressive positions. So the point of this is that I am conflicted. I really want them to change the SH right now, because of my win on Alterzim altar. Though, that game on King Sejong I found pretty exciting due to giving me another style to play other than ling bling muta. It's probably not as viable as it seems due to my opponent not really knowing how to deal with it, but playing aggressively with swarmhosts was refreshing. On their proposed changes, I'm indifferent on the hydra buff and spore debuff, because I tend to use mutas in ZvZ a lot. But that abduct change, that is a resounding no. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45017 Posts
On May 07 2014 02:33 Shellshock wrote: I don't think they should make all massive units immune to abduct. I think it's fine vs stuff like Tempests and Colossi. I like the suggestion some people made about just making brood lords immune to it so they dont just get pulled into spores and can instead be used to break entrenched positions Hydra buff could be ok too I agree... can't they just make broodlords immune to abduct and keep all other massive units abductable? That way, ZvZ might be fixed and ZvT and ZvP truly wouldn't be touched. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On May 07 2014 04:06 Squat wrote: That is certainly a legitimate argument, yet only to a point. Some issues do not warrant the massive changes required to deal with them, but perhaps some of them do. Protoss is likely a lost cause at this point, it's been stated clearly that the time and effort needed to fix it is not something they feel is warranted. But perhaps something can be done about hosts in LotV that allows zerg late game to still function. And it may require some hefty changes. Could be worth it still. The fact that we consider a big shift in protoss design a lost cause already is a good example of why I'm a bit pessimistic about Blizzard's way of handling the game.  | ||
Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On May 07 2014 04:08 Ercster wrote: It sounds like they want a short term fix, though. Long term would be to change what makes them good in a comp, and that doesn't seem likely in this expansion. It's kinda the reason why I presented the idea of the unit cap. It wasn't to be the end all solution to the unit, but for the time being it might fix the problems it has until they decide to rework the unit. A short term fix that doesn't fuck up zerg late game is preferable, and available. Make BLs immune to abduct. Done. | ||
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Ganseng
Russian Federation473 Posts
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superpanda27
111 Posts
On May 07 2014 04:09 Ganseng wrote: oh gosh finally they spoke of making massive units immune to abduct hope that goes through it's so disgusting to see huge amounts of resources get destroyed instantly with one spell i'm sure one can make the game balanced without a spell that basically kills the capital units instantly i personally would make massive immune to abduct, and decrease abduct cost to 50e, so that it's used more often against non-massive units Disgusting to see huge amounts of resources get destroyed by one spell, eh? If you want massive units to be immune to abduct, then I want forcefields to be able destroyed by units attack them. | ||
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BadBorz
Canada61 Posts
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crow_mw
Poland115 Posts
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On May 07 2014 04:08 LingBlingBling wrote: Viper abduct is like actually needed in top level Korean PVZ, Protoss is already hard to break in the late game for zerg as they have garbage anti air vs protoss deathball and have to go into swarm host/viper or muta/corrupter/viper ect and yank slowly the massive units of protoss. Is Swarm host in zvz really a thing?? Come on now no one in NA or Korea uses it. Blizzard really considering making drastic changes because a few obnoxious EU pros are using it to stall out Tournaments??? ZvZ for rest of the world is roach vs roach muta into roach ect. Stephano is like the only person along with a few EU players that do that anyways, and they do it to make the other guy mad lol. It should be mentioned that they're also winning with it. Stephano owned Jaedong with it when the latter was ahead in practically every way possible except he didn't make SH's. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 07 2014 04:12 Ganseng wrote: as for the late game protoss deathball, i think it could be fixed by making tempests more expensive and buffing broodlords/corruptors a little bit... but that's just my opinion slightly off topic When has this been a problem recently in any pro match? Not really an issue. | ||
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MajorBiscuit
83 Posts
Give SH energy and make them cast their locusts. This way the player has to think of when and how he/she uses the unit. | ||
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Ercster
United States603 Posts
On May 07 2014 04:10 Squat wrote: A short term fix that doesn't fuck up zerg late game is preferable, and available. Make BLs immune to abduct. Done. "- Change the Viper’s Abduct ability to make massive units immune to it. o By making Brood Lords immune to Abduct, we’d solve the stalemate. Late game ZvZ would be mostly about who wins in the air. o There are downsides -- Abduct is a really cool ability, and it is something Zerg needs vs. Colossi in PvZ. o To address that, we’d consider a potential buff to Blinding Cloud so that Vipers would still be a valuable utility unit in the ZvP matchup." To me, it doesn't seem like they're capable of doing that otherwise it would have been suggested instead of all massive units. And I don't think applying it to all massive units would be helpful. | ||
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Veriol
Czech Republic502 Posts
If anyone goes safely into SH in ZvZ/ZvP or even ZvT (as shown by PiG) it produces insanely long game full of locust waves. People just dont do it because its just soul crushing for everyone involved | ||
Falling
Canada11369 Posts
On May 07 2014 04:08 LingBlingBling wrote: Is Swarm host in zvz really a thing?? Come on now no one in NA or Korea uses it. Blizzard really considering making drastic changes because a few obnoxious EU pros are using it to stall out Tournaments??? ZvZ for rest of the world is roach vs roach muta into roach ect. Stephano is like the only person along with a few EU players that do that anyways, and they do it to make the other guy mad lol. Well, that's why waiting a bit longer isn't too bad. Did Stephano break ZvZ and everyone else is behind the curve and we're about to get inundated with SH stalemates? Or is this a freak game? In my heart of hearts, I'd like to think that it couldn't be possible to even have such a freak game, that design could preclude such a possibility. But who knows with how people will play. What does make it disturbing is it was such a bad stalemate in maxed army, macro situation. Rather than a weird base trade where someone has a cannon left and the other has a DT left and neither can attack the other. That's hard to account for, but it's also very rare. Maxed, macro games are a lot easier to get to. A lot easier to repeat the conditions that led to a stalemate. But for that reason, a wait and see is for the best, imo. (Even if I think SH's inherently lend themselves to passive gameplay.) | ||
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superpanda27
111 Posts
On May 07 2014 04:16 Ercster wrote: "- Change the Viper’s Abduct ability to make massive units immune to it. o By making Brood Lords immune to Abduct, we’d solve the stalemate. Late game ZvZ would be mostly about who wins in the air. o There are downsides -- Abduct is a really cool ability, and it is something Zerg needs vs. Colossi in PvZ. o To address that, we’d consider a potential buff to Blinding Cloud so that Vipers would still be a valuable utility unit in the ZvP matchup." To me, it doesn't seem like they're capable of doing that otherwise it would have been suggested instead of all massive units. And I don't think applying it to all massive units would be helpful. One thing they could do for blinding cloud is that units auto-move when they are under blinding cloud. They could make so that they don't auto-move which is a very minor buff to blinding cloud. | ||
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Prime Directive
United States186 Posts
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