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On May 07 2014 03:57 ANLProbe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:56 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:53 ANLProbe wrote:On May 07 2014 03:33 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:29 ANLProbe wrote:On May 07 2014 03:22 Plansix wrote:On May 07 2014 03:21 ANLProbe wrote:
Why are Blizzard so incompetent when trying to fix the real issues? By patching the exact same way dota 2 is patched? By buffing the ways to deal with the problem, rather then nerfing it into the ground? The unit shouldn't be nerfed per say, but it should be redesigned to promote the multipronged SH style with constant repositioning. The change to the spore crawler and the Hydra is needed though. Suggestions? Increase the SH movement speed to 2.75 off creep. Locusts now lose health every second (numbers can be changed, preferably equivalent to the same amount of time that they last in Vanilla SC2). The upgrade now allows SHs to spawn 3 locusts at a time. This would allow a lower amount of SHs to be useful, and a higher number of SHs be less useful as if there are too many locusts, they will not be able to fight, and if there health is depleting quite quickly, then Zerg players will have less incentive to mass them. Now look! That is a useful post that allows for some discussion! Thoughts on my ideas?
Sure!
I like the health decrease if that goes from 100% to 33% in like 15 seconds and then they die. I want to introduce a cooldown / period of weakness whilst making Locust more powerful in smaller numbers. Thinking of melee range or larger unit models!
3 Locust might do the same, but they are so small they usually don't get in the way of each other!
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On May 07 2014 03:49 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:48 Xiphos wrote:
So basically the units needs to be redesigned in order to be 1. Interesting to use and 2. have more dynamics.
Well get to it Blizzard! That is so damn vague... Interesting? What? How? Faster? More Range? Less damage? Cost per spawn? Dynamics? Like what? What is a 'dynamic'?!
A really interesting move would be to actually give Viper's tendacles their own "HP".
And you can have units to weigh differently so the fatter a unit is, the more time it takes to drag the units to your location.
But the opponent can decide to kill the tendacle to stop the units from being dragged too far.
And also another interesting aspect Blizzard can do is to insert a "stop dragging" option to determine how much distance would you want to unit to be dragged.
There are PLENTY of interesting and original ideas that Blizzard can come up with in order to create fun to use units and create great interaction based upon player's skills.
Instead we get a "casual" friendly product that players get bored rather quickly. And hopes for Blizzard to change their attitude toward SC2 is void.
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On May 07 2014 03:52 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:47 Ercster wrote:
Would capping the amount of swarm hosts you can have at once help? I'm not talking about increasing their supply cost, but just making it so you can only have something like 15-20 out at a time? Changes like this are just poor design. You end up with a ton of unintuitive corner cases, which makes learning the game much harder. All changes need to make sense when compared to previously existing changes. You could presumably design a balanced game where each unit deals a different amount of damage to each other unit, and with weird unit caps to each unit but it would be way too restrictive and confusing to play.
Except there is already a unit cap for each unit that isn't identical to all units; it's called supply. Also, it exists already with the Mothership, and no one is complaining about it being unintuitive or poor game design, at least not with the amount you can have.
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On May 07 2014 03:56 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:52 Noocta wrote:On May 07 2014 03:49 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:48 Xiphos wrote:
So basically the units needs to be redesigned in order to be 1. Interesting to use and 2. have more dynamics.
Well get to it Blizzard! That is so damn vague... Interesting? What? How? Faster? More Range? Less damage? Cost per spawn? Dynamics? Like what? What is a 'dynamic'?! It's not the community's role to find the answers, and even if we did they wouldn't use them. In the end, what we have is them knowing it's an issue, but taking the easy road of avoiding changing stuff about swarm host, and going around the issue. Sc2 ded gaem wasting time bbggnore
Want a example ?
Lalush video about air pathing.
" Ugh it's too complicated, people might get confused, we don't want to do anything "
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On May 07 2014 03:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:52 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On May 07 2014 03:47 Ercster wrote:
Would capping the amount of swarm hosts you can have at once help? I'm not talking about increasing their supply cost, but just making it so you can only have something like 15-20 out at a time? Changes like this are just poor design. You end up with a ton of unintuitive corner cases, which makes learning the game much harder. All changes need to make sense when compared to previously existing changes. You could presumably design a balanced game where each unit deals a different amount of damage to each other unit, and with weird unit caps to each unit but it would be way too restrictive and confusing to play. Not that I agree with him (its one of the dumber ideas I've heard) but the unit limit has already been done with the Mothership and the Mothership Core. Blizz is already okay with arbitrary non-supply limitations in the number of units.
I think a limit of 1, clearly indicating that this is a highly specialized and rare unit, is sort of fine. I don't like it, but it kind of works. Having a completely random and arbitrary limit on a regular army unit like 15 or something would be incredibly weird and unintuitive. It also flies in the face of one of the basic ideas of zerg, huge techswaps to respond to whatever your opponent is doing.
Just give broodlords a passive buff called "immovable" or some shit like that and make it immune to abducts. It's a band aid, an ugly one and leaves a bad taste, but there is really nothing else they can do unless they want to get serious about bigger issues with the game, which seems exceedingly improbable.
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On May 07 2014 03:58 ANLProbe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:57 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:56 ANLProbe wrote:On May 07 2014 03:55 -Archangel- wrote:
Only one real solution. Remove SH and give us Lurkers (changed so they would work, their bullshit excuse that they have same role as blings is just that - bullshit). Lurkers don't fulfill the same role as SHs. Impalers do however. Impalers kinda overlap with Abduct / Siege Tanks however... Siege tanks different race. Abduct is countered by Feedback and the Impaler is a far more interesting unit than the SH.
I agree, but overlapping unit roles, even across races, is not preferable.
As for abduct being countered by Feedback, yes, but it still overlaps a bit!
That being said, the Impaler was cool to play with. Could it be a good addition to SC2? I don't know, it very well may!
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On May 07 2014 03:57 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:55 darkness wrote:
The easiest solution is to increase the Swarm Host's supply per unit. Was it that hard? No, yet Blizzard are looking for stupid alternatives. No, it wouldn't. It make them an unviable option and thus screwing lategame ZvP/ZvMech
So buff ultralisks and zerg's T3. Swarm host is a boring, uncreative unit to use.
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On May 07 2014 03:59 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:56 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:52 Noocta wrote:On May 07 2014 03:49 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:48 Xiphos wrote:
So basically the units needs to be redesigned in order to be 1. Interesting to use and 2. have more dynamics.
Well get to it Blizzard! That is so damn vague... Interesting? What? How? Faster? More Range? Less damage? Cost per spawn? Dynamics? Like what? What is a 'dynamic'?! It's not the community's role to find the answers, and even if we did they wouldn't use them. In the end, what we have is them knowing it's an issue, but taking the easy road of avoiding changing stuff about swarm host, and going around the issue. Sc2 ded gaem wasting time bbggnore Want a example ? Lalush video about air pathing. " Ugh it's too complicated, people might get confused, we don't want to do anything "
Ignoring the amount of rebalancing and recoding that would go into that...
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On May 07 2014 04:00 darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:57 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:55 darkness wrote:
The easiest solution is to increase the Swarm Host's supply per unit. Was it that hard? No, yet Blizzard are looking for stupid alternatives. No, it wouldn't. It make them an unviable option and thus screwing lategame ZvP/ZvMech So buff ultralisks and zerg's T3. Swarm host is a boring, uncreative unit to use.
I agree with that. Somebody said something of making Queen production more vialbe. You could go even further and give them Hive Tech abilities for better combat use.
Ultras and Broodlords both have obvious counters and big flaws, but that is also what makes them interesting...
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On May 07 2014 03:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:52 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On May 07 2014 03:47 Ercster wrote:
Would capping the amount of swarm hosts you can have at once help? I'm not talking about increasing their supply cost, but just making it so you can only have something like 15-20 out at a time? Changes like this are just poor design. You end up with a ton of unintuitive corner cases, which makes learning the game much harder. All changes need to make sense when compared to previously existing changes. You could presumably design a balanced game where each unit deals a different amount of damage to each other unit, and with weird unit caps to each unit but it would be way too restrictive and confusing to play. Not that I agree with him (its one of the dumber ideas I've heard) but the unit limit has already been done with the Mothership and the Mothership Core. Blizz is already okay with arbitrary non-supply limitations in the number of units.
What exactly is dumb about it?
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On May 07 2014 04:00 darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:57 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:55 darkness wrote:
The easiest solution is to increase the Swarm Host's supply per unit. Was it that hard? No, yet Blizzard are looking for stupid alternatives. No, it wouldn't. It make them an unviable option and thus screwing lategame ZvP/ZvMech So buff ultralisks and zerg's T3. Swarm host is a boring, uncreative unit to use.
Then Ultras would be OP in TvZ. Zerg need their harass options buffed like Nydus and Drops. BLs could use some love however.
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On May 07 2014 03:55 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:51 Sapphire.lux wrote:On May 07 2014 03:40 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:39 Sapphire.lux wrote:On May 07 2014 03:36 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:32 Sapphire.lux wrote:On May 07 2014 03:22 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:18 Sapphire.lux wrote:On May 07 2014 03:03 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:00 Sapphire.lux wrote:
[quote]
This type of excuse has got to stop. The game has had severe balance issues more then a few times over the years and many players were "fucked over", sometimes by Blizzards reluctance to act (BL/Inf for one).
If there is ever an acceptable reason to do potentially destabilizing changes is when those changes are for the greater good of the game. SC2 is not some Holly Grail of balance and entertainment that should not be disturbed.
If they are not doing more serious changes is because they can't or don't want to in order to keep them for the expansion, not the poor x race players. You know, on one hand there's people complaining balancing happens to often. Then there's people that want Blizzard to respond to every tiny fucking shift in winrates possible. Since i'm neither i don't see the relevance of that. Offcourse they will not mess with balance for the reason of redesigning a unit because it gives problems in a tiny percentage of mirror matchups! It gave problems in all the Z MUs and it still does. You see, Blizzard themselfs admit "in the long term" they are looking at redesign. You minimizing the problem just doesn't hold water unfortunately. Broodlord Infestor was so hard to figure out and solve. No it wasn't. In the short term, for WOL, they could have reverted the Queen range buff and at least TvZ would have been salvaged. It's easy to bash and stomp on everything they come up with and not bring up any usable argument yourself. Very dramatic. SHs are bad for this games and i have many games to show it plus many people agreeing online, plus Blizz themselfs admitting redesign is on the table "for latter". That enough of an argument for you? And where exactly is your suggestion? I still say the impact on ZvP and ZvT is not yet determinable. As for the rest; Ok. My suggestion? These are not the Bnet forums lol I can tell you a particular F1 car is not good enough, i can't tell you how to actually build a better one. One is capable of identifying problems without also bringing solutions. So, what exactly is your contribution then? Saying what David says exactly? lol you are funny SHs need to be addressed in all 3 MUs, not just ZvZ. I could't have sworn i've said it before though. lol ty WG/FF/Mech/BC/Thor/Ghost/Oracle/MSC/Infestor/BL need to be adressed in all 3 MU, not just XvX. ezpz! Np! Blizzard doesn't read your suggestions or solutions. Nor should they really. The only direct feedback they sometimes listen to is from some pros and some casters. I know it's cool and it makes one feel important to think a huge game developer reads and thinks about youre "suggestions" and theorycrafting, but that's just not possible. The only "power" the greater community has is through sheer volume of posts and feedback. 20 pg of SHs OP is much more likely to initiate a response then 2 pg of detailed and laborious "suggestions". Posts about the economy, mech, unit micro etc were superb in their content yet ignored. On the other hand, hundreds of posts on keeping the Carrier produce results. Ever heard of the vocal minority?
Yeah, of red herrings to.
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United States97277 Posts
On May 07 2014 03:59 Ercster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:52 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On May 07 2014 03:47 Ercster wrote:
Would capping the amount of swarm hosts you can have at once help? I'm not talking about increasing their supply cost, but just making it so you can only have something like 15-20 out at a time? Changes like this are just poor design. You end up with a ton of unintuitive corner cases, which makes learning the game much harder. All changes need to make sense when compared to previously existing changes. You could presumably design a balanced game where each unit deals a different amount of damage to each other unit, and with weird unit caps to each unit but it would be way too restrictive and confusing to play. Except there is already a unit cap for each unit that isn't identical to all units; it's called supply. Also, it exists already with the Mothership, and no one is complaining about it being unintuitive or poor game design, at least not with the amount you can have.
To be fair people actually did complain a lot about the 1 unit cap and having "hero units" in the game as far back as the original mothership in WoL and a lot more when the hero Thor was supposed to replace the standard thor in HoTS. The thor change got scrapped but they never did anything about the msc/mothership
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On May 07 2014 04:00 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:59 Noocta wrote:On May 07 2014 03:56 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:52 Noocta wrote:On May 07 2014 03:49 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:48 Xiphos wrote:
So basically the units needs to be redesigned in order to be 1. Interesting to use and 2. have more dynamics.
Well get to it Blizzard! That is so damn vague... Interesting? What? How? Faster? More Range? Less damage? Cost per spawn? Dynamics? Like what? What is a 'dynamic'?! It's not the community's role to find the answers, and even if we did they wouldn't use them. In the end, what we have is them knowing it's an issue, but taking the easy road of avoiding changing stuff about swarm host, and going around the issue. Sc2 ded gaem wasting time bbggnore Want a example ? Lalush video about air pathing. " Ugh it's too complicated, people might get confused, we don't want to do anything " Ignoring the amount of rebalancing and recoding that would go into that...
Yeah, so much people manage to change it in custom maps.
I thought expansions allowed for that kind of consideration.
But no, adding a projectile to Fungal was revolutionary enough apparently.
And damn, sorry you got banned. I wasn't the one reporting you. I'm fine discussing stuff. :/
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Canada11607 Posts
On May 07 2014 03:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:52 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On May 07 2014 03:47 Ercster wrote:
Would capping the amount of swarm hosts you can have at once help? I'm not talking about increasing their supply cost, but just making it so you can only have something like 15-20 out at a time? Changes like this are just poor design. You end up with a ton of unintuitive corner cases, which makes learning the game much harder. All changes need to make sense when compared to previously existing changes. You could presumably design a balanced game where each unit deals a different amount of damage to each other unit, and with weird unit caps to each unit but it would be way too restrictive and confusing to play. Not that I agree with him (its one of the dumber ideas I've heard) but the unit limit has already been done with the Mothership and the Mothership Core. Blizz is already okay with arbitrary non-supply limitations in the number of units.
It's still not a good solution. It basically acknowledges that they've made a unit that snowballs too well, but doesn't change the underlying cause on why it snowballs. Plus the swarmhost doesn't really even have special spells that would make it even feel like a hero unit like the Mothership. (And I never liked the idea of a mothership in the first place.)
I mean, realistically this could be the solution to any unit composition problem. Hypothetical: Marauders are too good and Terran will only make pure marauders to snipe everything on the ground and shrug off air attacks. Solution? You can only make 20 marauders... or fix the reason why Terran only goes marauders every game.
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On May 07 2014 03:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:52 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On May 07 2014 03:47 Ercster wrote:
Would capping the amount of swarm hosts you can have at once help? I'm not talking about increasing their supply cost, but just making it so you can only have something like 15-20 out at a time? Changes like this are just poor design. You end up with a ton of unintuitive corner cases, which makes learning the game much harder. All changes need to make sense when compared to previously existing changes. You could presumably design a balanced game where each unit deals a different amount of damage to each other unit, and with weird unit caps to each unit but it would be way too restrictive and confusing to play. Not that I agree with him (its one of the dumber ideas I've heard) but the unit limit has already been done with the Mothership and the Mothership Core. Blizz is already okay with arbitrary non-supply limitations in the number of units.
I know, unfortunately. The fact that Blizzard has done it before does not mean its not poor design (though a limit of one isn't too terrible concept wise), and also does not mean they should do it again.
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The current implementation is fine, just have a cost that's trivial in all but stalemate situations, like 1 mineral/spawn while reducing the cost of the unit by 10 minerals or so.
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On May 07 2014 04:00 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:59 Noocta wrote:On May 07 2014 03:56 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:52 Noocta wrote:On May 07 2014 03:49 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:48 Xiphos wrote:
So basically the units needs to be redesigned in order to be 1. Interesting to use and 2. have more dynamics.
Well get to it Blizzard! That is so damn vague... Interesting? What? How? Faster? More Range? Less damage? Cost per spawn? Dynamics? Like what? What is a 'dynamic'?! It's not the community's role to find the answers, and even if we did they wouldn't use them. In the end, what we have is them knowing it's an issue, but taking the easy road of avoiding changing stuff about swarm host, and going around the issue. Sc2 ded gaem wasting time bbggnore Want a example ? Lalush video about air pathing. " Ugh it's too complicated, people might get confused, we don't want to do anything " Ignoring the amount of rebalancing and recoding that would go into that...
That is certainly a legitimate argument, yet only to a point. Some issues do not warrant the massive changes required to deal with them, but perhaps some of them do.
Protoss is likely a lost cause at this point, it's been stated clearly that the time and effort needed to fix it is not something they feel is warranted. But perhaps something can be done about hosts in LotV that allows zerg late game to still function. And it may require some hefty changes. Could be worth it still.
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On May 07 2014 03:14 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:13 tyranolol wrote:
Yeah surely, change the abduct, so there is no way to kill colossi and tempest, gg wp mr kim, if you want to kill Z please say it directly, if you want everything TvT, PvT and PvP is ok you can say it clearly, PvZ matchup en last code S season one was a bit favoured to the P and you nerf the viper abduct? Seriously Facepalm No useful comment and hardly read the post omg what you serious ggwp mr tyranotroll rofl seriously facepalm
Yeah I know, it was the angry moment of watching that D. Kim wants to nerf the abduct instead of reworking the sh, my fault sorry :D Don't know what's exactly the problem that Mr. Kim sees on the viper when every single member I know in the comm their problem is actually the SH, as Z player I hate to play them cause is boring but they are not imbalanced, just they need a rework, just that, maybe bring back the old lurker of bw?
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lol
I don't think you put much thought into that Viper nerf.
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