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On May 07 2014 03:49 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:48 Xiphos wrote:
So basically the units needs to be redesigned in order to be 1. Interesting to use and 2. have more dynamics.
Well get to it Blizzard! That is so damn vague... Interesting? What? How? Faster? More Range? Less damage? Cost per spawn? Dynamics? Like what? What is a 'dynamic'?!
It's not the community's role to find the answers, and even if we did they wouldn't use them.
In the end, what we have is them knowing it's an issue, but taking the easy road of avoiding changing stuff about swarm host, and going around the issue.
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On May 07 2014 03:47 Ercster wrote:
Would capping the amount of swarm hosts you can have at once help? I'm not talking about increasing their supply cost, but just making it so you can only have something like 15-20 out at a time?
Changes like this are just poor design. You end up with a ton of unintuitive corner cases, which makes learning the game much harder. All changes need to make sense when compared to previously existing changes.
You could presumably design a balanced game where each unit deals a different amount of damage to each other unit, and with weird unit caps to each unit but it would be way too restrictive and confusing to play.
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On May 07 2014 03:49 Shellshock wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:48 Plansix wrote:On May 07 2014 03:46 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:45 Shellshock wrote:On May 07 2014 03:44 Faust852 wrote:On May 07 2014 03:43 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:42 Foxxan wrote:On May 07 2014 03:12 Shellshock wrote:On May 07 2014 03:11 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:08 Liquid`Snute wrote:
The best fix for ZvZ is to just make the Brood Lord immune to Abduct.
Making abduct not work on Massive units would really mess with the other match-ups' endgames, it's tough as it is to deal with properly controlled sky terran and sky protoss It would be a clunky fix. What do you think of making Crawlers affected by Abduct? I think "why can only certain buildings be abducted?" is harder to pass off than "why can certain units not be abducted?" considering unit immunities have existed for so long Because zerg static defence can uproot, doesnt sound any weird to me atleast Isn't that the exact same thing? I'd say pulling an airborne structure is easier than a structure that still has claws in the ground. Too heavy ofc ! I believe the mothership is the largest to scale thing in all of starcraft and it can pull that OMG Starcraft doesn't abide the laws of physics? My life is a lie!!!!!!! The Thor lift is totally possible, totally. It makes perfect sense. Or overlord dropping ultras. medivacs have ridiculous thrusters and an electromagnet to hold the thor and ultralisks can clearly compress how do you think they fit in eggs?
So drones that turn into buildings are inflatable? Like a bouncy castle?
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On May 07 2014 03:48 Gullis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:45 Shellshock wrote:On May 07 2014 03:44 Faust852 wrote:On May 07 2014 03:43 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:42 Foxxan wrote:On May 07 2014 03:12 Shellshock wrote:On May 07 2014 03:11 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:08 Liquid`Snute wrote:
The best fix for ZvZ is to just make the Brood Lord immune to Abduct.
Making abduct not work on Massive units would really mess with the other match-ups' endgames, it's tough as it is to deal with properly controlled sky terran and sky protoss It would be a clunky fix. What do you think of making Crawlers affected by Abduct? I think "why can only certain buildings be abducted?" is harder to pass off than "why can certain units not be abducted?" considering unit immunities have existed for so long Because zerg static defence can uproot, doesnt sound any weird to me atleast Isn't that the exact same thing? I'd say pulling an airborne structure is easier than a structure that still has claws in the ground. Too heavy ofc ! I believe the mothership is the largest to scale thing in all of starcraft and it can pull that maybe terran structures are just more dense Maby the explanation can be that broodlings attach them self to the broodlord and will work as a drag parachute to increase air resistance makin it invulnerable to abduct.
Add an animation sequence of the broodlings biting off the Viper tendril. Hilarious and sensical 
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biological units are immune to abduct - problem solved
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On May 07 2014 03:49 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:48 Xiphos wrote:
So basically the units needs to be redesigned in order to be 1. Interesting to use and 2. have more dynamics.
Well get to it Blizzard! That is so damn vague... Interesting? What? How? Faster? More Range? Less damage? Cost per spawn? Dynamics? Like what? What is a 'dynamic'?!
The master plan: shit post their way to a "better" game. They don't know what that is, but they will tell us when it shows up.
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"Buff hydralisk damage vs flying bio units." Can we just cut the bullshit and give them a damage bonus vs mutalisks, if that's what they want to do? I find their line of thinking kind of hilarious here. "Well we want to buff hydralisks vs mutalisks, but we don't want to have every unit doing unique damage to every other unit, so we have to find the smallest classification of units that include mutalisks, however oddly specific, and hydras will now be arbitrarily buffed against all of them for no balance reasons whatsoever."
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On May 07 2014 03:33 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:29 ANLProbe wrote:On May 07 2014 03:22 Plansix wrote:On May 07 2014 03:21 ANLProbe wrote:
Why are Blizzard so incompetent when trying to fix the real issues? By patching the exact same way dota 2 is patched? By buffing the ways to deal with the problem, rather then nerfing it into the ground? The unit shouldn't be nerfed per say, but it should be redesigned to promote the multipronged SH style with constant repositioning. The change to the spore crawler and the Hydra is needed though. Suggestions?
Increase the SH movement speed to 2.75 off creep.
Locusts now lose health every second (numbers can be changed, preferably equivalent to the same amount of time that they last in Vanilla SC2).
The upgrade now allows SHs to spawn 3 locusts at a time. This would allow a lower amount of SHs to be useful, and a higher number of SHs be less useful as if there are too many locusts, they will not be able to fight, and if there health is depleting quite quickly, then Zerg players will have less incentive to mass them.
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On May 07 2014 03:52 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:47 Ercster wrote:
Would capping the amount of swarm hosts you can have at once help? I'm not talking about increasing their supply cost, but just making it so you can only have something like 15-20 out at a time? Changes like this are just poor design. You end up with a ton of unintuitive corner cases, which makes learning the game much harder. All changes need to make sense when compared to previously existing changes. You could presumably design a balanced game where each unit deals a different amount of damage to each other unit, and with weird unit caps to each unit but it would be way too restrictive and confusing to play.
Not that I agree with him (its one of the dumber ideas I've heard) but the unit limit has already been done with the Mothership and the Mothership Core. Blizz is already okay with arbitrary non-supply limitations in the number of units.
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On May 07 2014 03:52 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:49 Shellshock wrote:On May 07 2014 03:48 Plansix wrote:On May 07 2014 03:46 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:45 Shellshock wrote:On May 07 2014 03:44 Faust852 wrote:On May 07 2014 03:43 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:42 Foxxan wrote:On May 07 2014 03:12 Shellshock wrote:On May 07 2014 03:11 SC2Toastie wrote:
[quote]
It would be a clunky fix.
What do you think of making Crawlers affected by Abduct? I think "why can only certain buildings be abducted?" is harder to pass off than "why can certain units not be abducted?" considering unit immunities have existed for so long Because zerg static defence can uproot, doesnt sound any weird to me atleast Isn't that the exact same thing? I'd say pulling an airborne structure is easier than a structure that still has claws in the ground. Too heavy ofc ! I believe the mothership is the largest to scale thing in all of starcraft and it can pull that OMG Starcraft doesn't abide the laws of physics? My life is a lie!!!!!!! The Thor lift is totally possible, totally. It makes perfect sense. Or overlord dropping ultras. medivacs have ridiculous thrusters and an electromagnet to hold the thor and ultralisks can clearly compress how do you think they fit in eggs? So drones that turn into buildings are inflatable? Like a bouncy castle?
Blizzard, bring me the bouncy castle Zerg mod. You're losing money by not doing it.
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On May 07 2014 03:51 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:40 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:39 Sapphire.lux wrote:On May 07 2014 03:36 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:32 Sapphire.lux wrote:On May 07 2014 03:22 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:18 Sapphire.lux wrote:On May 07 2014 03:03 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:00 Sapphire.lux wrote:On May 07 2014 02:50 SC2Toastie wrote:
[quote]
No, Duh.
They're in the middle of the WCS season. Deleting/Nerfing/Redesigning a unit that is getting reasonable use in three matchups, not to mention it's necessity verse turtleToss, is the best way to fuck over a lot of Zerg players.
In expansion, he'll get a new beta and will be able to test big changes. You can't blame the guy for not fucking every Zerg competing for money over. This type of excuse has got to stop. The game has had severe balance issues more then a few times over the years and many players were "fucked over", sometimes by Blizzards reluctance to act (BL/Inf for one). If there is ever an acceptable reason to do potentially destabilizing changes is when those changes are for the greater good of the game. SC2 is not some Holly Grail of balance and entertainment that should not be disturbed. If they are not doing more serious changes is because they can't or don't want to in order to keep them for the expansion, not the poor x race players. You know, on one hand there's people complaining balancing happens to often. Then there's people that want Blizzard to respond to every tiny fucking shift in winrates possible. Since i'm neither i don't see the relevance of that. Offcourse they will not mess with balance for the reason of redesigning a unit because it gives problems in a tiny percentage of mirror matchups! It gave problems in all the Z MUs and it still does. You see, Blizzard themselfs admit "in the long term" they are looking at redesign. You minimizing the problem just doesn't hold water unfortunately. Broodlord Infestor was so hard to figure out and solve. No it wasn't. In the short term, for WOL, they could have reverted the Queen range buff and at least TvZ would have been salvaged. It's easy to bash and stomp on everything they come up with and not bring up any usable argument yourself. Very dramatic. SHs are bad for this games and i have many games to show it plus many people agreeing online, plus Blizz themselfs admitting redesign is on the table "for latter". That enough of an argument for you? And where exactly is your suggestion? I still say the impact on ZvP and ZvT is not yet determinable. As for the rest; Ok. My suggestion? These are not the Bnet forums lol I can tell you a particular F1 car is not good enough, i can't tell you how to actually build a better one. One is capable of identifying problems without also bringing solutions. So, what exactly is your contribution then? Saying what David says exactly? lol you are funny SHs need to be addressed in all 3 MUs, not just ZvZ. I could't have sworn i've said it before though. lol ty WG/FF/Mech/BC/Thor/Ghost/Oracle/MSC/Infestor/BL need to be adressed in all 3 MU, not just XvX. ezpz! Np! Blizzard doesn't read your suggestions or solutions. Nor should they really. The only direct feedback they sometimes listen to is from some pros and some casters. I know it's cool and it makes one feel important to think a huge game developer reads and thinks about youre "suggestions" and theorycrafting, but that's just not possible. The only "power" the greater community has is through sheer volume of posts and feedback. 20 pg of SHs OP is much more likely to initiate a response then 2 pg of detailed and laborious "suggestions". Posts about the economy, mech, unit micro etc were superb in their content yet ignored. On the other hand, hundreds of posts on keeping the Carrier produce results.
Ever heard of the vocal minority?
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The easiest solution is to increase the Swarm Host's supply per unit. Was it that hard? No, yet Blizzard are looking for stupid alternatives.
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Only one real solution. Remove SH and give us Lurkers (changed so they would work, their bullshit excuse that they have same role as blings is just that - bullshit).
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On May 07 2014 03:53 ANLProbe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:33 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:29 ANLProbe wrote:On May 07 2014 03:22 Plansix wrote:On May 07 2014 03:21 ANLProbe wrote:
Why are Blizzard so incompetent when trying to fix the real issues? By patching the exact same way dota 2 is patched? By buffing the ways to deal with the problem, rather then nerfing it into the ground? The unit shouldn't be nerfed per say, but it should be redesigned to promote the multipronged SH style with constant repositioning. The change to the spore crawler and the Hydra is needed though. Suggestions? Increase the SH movement speed to 2.75 off creep. Locusts now lose health every second (numbers can be changed, preferably equivalent to the same amount of time that they last in Vanilla SC2). The upgrade now allows SHs to spawn 3 locusts at a time. This would allow a lower amount of SHs to be useful, and a higher number of SHs be less useful as if there are too many locusts, they will not be able to fight, and if there health is depleting quite quickly, then Zerg players will have less incentive to mass them.
Now look! That is a useful post that allows for some discussion!
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On May 07 2014 03:55 -Archangel- wrote:
Only one real solution. Remove SH and give us Lurkers (changed so they would work, their bullshit excuse that they have same role as blings is just that - bullshit).
Lurkers don't fulfill the same role as SHs. Impalers do however.
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On May 07 2014 03:52 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:49 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:48 Xiphos wrote:
So basically the units needs to be redesigned in order to be 1. Interesting to use and 2. have more dynamics.
Well get to it Blizzard! That is so damn vague... Interesting? What? How? Faster? More Range? Less damage? Cost per spawn? Dynamics? Like what? What is a 'dynamic'?! It's not the community's role to find the answers, and even if we did they wouldn't use them. In the end, what we have is them knowing it's an issue, but taking the easy road of avoiding changing stuff about swarm host, and going around the issue.
Sc2 ded gaem wasting time bbggnore
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 07 2014 03:56 ANLProbe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:55 -Archangel- wrote:
Only one real solution. Remove SH and give us Lurkers (changed so they would work, their bullshit excuse that they have same role as blings is just that - bullshit). Lurkers don't fulfill the same role as SHs. Impalers do however.
Impalers kinda overlap with Abduct / Siege Tanks however...
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On May 07 2014 03:56 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:53 ANLProbe wrote:On May 07 2014 03:33 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 07 2014 03:29 ANLProbe wrote:On May 07 2014 03:22 Plansix wrote:On May 07 2014 03:21 ANLProbe wrote:
Why are Blizzard so incompetent when trying to fix the real issues? By patching the exact same way dota 2 is patched? By buffing the ways to deal with the problem, rather then nerfing it into the ground? The unit shouldn't be nerfed per say, but it should be redesigned to promote the multipronged SH style with constant repositioning. The change to the spore crawler and the Hydra is needed though. Suggestions? Increase the SH movement speed to 2.75 off creep. Locusts now lose health every second (numbers can be changed, preferably equivalent to the same amount of time that they last in Vanilla SC2). The upgrade now allows SHs to spawn 3 locusts at a time. This would allow a lower amount of SHs to be useful, and a higher number of SHs be less useful as if there are too many locusts, they will not be able to fight, and if there health is depleting quite quickly, then Zerg players will have less incentive to mass them. Now look! That is a useful post that allows for some discussion!
Thoughts on my ideas?
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On May 07 2014 03:55 darkness wrote:
The easiest solution is to increase the Swarm Host's supply per unit. Was it that hard? No, yet Blizzard are looking for stupid alternatives.
No, it wouldn't. It make them an unviable option and thus screwing lategame ZvP/ZvMech
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On May 07 2014 03:57 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:56 ANLProbe wrote:On May 07 2014 03:55 -Archangel- wrote:
Only one real solution. Remove SH and give us Lurkers (changed so they would work, their bullshit excuse that they have same role as blings is just that - bullshit). Lurkers don't fulfill the same role as SHs. Impalers do however. Impalers kinda overlap with Abduct / Siege Tanks however...
Siege tanks different race. Abduct is countered by Feedback and the Impaler is a far more interesting unit than the SH.
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EPT
