The TeamLiquid map contest has a long history of providing top quality maps and some of those have found their way into competitive use. Today we get to add to that legacy with the results of the latest edition of the TLMC. Last week we asked the community to vote for their favorite maps from our selection of hand picked finalists by the TeamLiquid Strategy team. You can find the complete list of finalists here. Now it's come time to announce the results of those polls.
As always, the maps presented here will be considered for use on the ladder or WCS -- this doesn't mean than any of the maps below will definitely be used! But we are confident that if they are, they will carry on the TLMC legacy and be worth successors to their predecessors.
Prizes
For this contest Blizzard have kindly donated the following prizes. The top three will each receive a dev team signed HotS Collectors Edition and with preference from first to third be able to select one of the following: - Razor Banshee Headset - Razor Marauder Keyboard - Razor Spectre Mouse
and one of - SC2 Battlecruiser Blocks - SC2 Raynor Figure - SC2 Kerrigan Mousepad
TLMC Winners (Team)
Honorable Mention
Solar Flare by NewSunshine
It seemed cruel to not mention Solar Flare as one of the top maps in the team play contest. Literally a single vote separated it from third place. The map has four possible spawn locations for the teams (corners) which already makes it an interesting map. It also uses interesting map architecture to give each player their own natural which is separated from their team mates. This allows for some interesting strategies around exploiting the vulnerability of a split natural via timing attacks. A truly top quality map.
Third Place
Lava Storm by lefix
Lava Storm takes the split map concept to the extreme - splitting the map into two halves connected by small passageways. Players will have to make decisions about whether to focus their efforts entirely on one half of the map or to try and control both sides of the map at the same time. Air units will likely prove very powerful as they're able to pass from one side of the map to the other unimpeded. How players approach this map will create interesting and varied game play.
Second Place
Preservation by Timetwister22
While all of the maps in the team play competition were top notch, the competition for first was really a two horse race. Preservation started out in the vote very strongly, but the first place finisher was able to squeeze out a win. Preservation is a modern version of the classic 2v2 formula. Players have an in base natural and accessible bases close to each main, this means that players will be able to play a macro oriented game -- unlike earlier maps using this style. After the first bases the map progresses in a natural team-oriented way meaning this map will reward strong team synergy more than the other finalists. To top it off, not only is this map beautiful but it also has the blessing of Snute.
First Place
Sacred Path by IeZaeL
The winner of the team play portion of the competition is also the only finalist to be actively used in current tournaments - currently Sacred Path is in use in TotalBiscuit's SHOUTcraft clan wars. The map is in use for a good reason, it's an exciting twist on how we should approach team play maps. Separate mains in 2v2 isn't a concept that has been explored at a professional or on the ladder in any significant way. This means that when people play this map they will have to devise new 2v2 strategies to best make use of the fact their allies are so far away.
The map itself is inspired by the famous Brood War 2v2 map Iron Curtain by 송기범 (skb9728_CyGnus). There is a distinctive line down the center of both the BW original and Sacred Path. However, Sacred Path deviates from the original by firstly having a small opening which can be used earlier on and secondly making the entire line out of destructible rocks. This gives teams control over how they want to shape the battlefield and adds another dimension to the strategies teams will employ. IeZaeL has done a fantastic job creating a map which does justice to the legacy of the original map while providing enough difference to be considered a masterpiece in it's own right.
1. Sacred Path by IeZaeL 2. Preservation by Timetwister22 3. Lava Storm by lefix 4. Solar Flare by NewSunshine 5. Korhal Carnage by Sidianthebard 6. Lunar Curtain by NewSunshine
TLMC Winners (1v1)
Third Place
KTV Kamala Park by Uvantak
Kamala Park, like waystation, is a two in one map. Players will always spawn in cross positions, but top left/bottom right (industrial) spawns will provide a different architecture than top right/bottom left (grassy) spawns on the map. The two different starting positions on Kamala Park play similarly to one another but the slight differences provide just enough variation without creating positional imbalances that greatly favor any single race. A good mix of open space and ramps in the center of the map will emphasize strong positioning when entering into any engagement.
The high ground third base is an interesting aspect of the map. The "industrial" spawn position will find the high ground third more difficult to take, as the destructible debris needs to be destroyed in order to make it more easily defensible when taken early. In the "grassy" spawn positions, the third base is easier to take, with the destructible debris making it easier to hold against aggression. The high ground third also provides strong defensive options thanks to the ramp. Losing control of this high ground gives your opponent a very powerful forward position to attack you from making its defense absolutely critical in a macro game. Free airspace on the edges of the map is also limited making drop play more difficult to hide from your opponent, weakening harass oriented play on this map considerably.
Second Place
KTV Foxtrot Labs by Uvantak
Second place in this contest also goes to Uvantak, which is a truly incredible feat. Innovation did not go unrewarded in this competition. Foxtrot represents quite possibly, the greatest push towards "non-standard" that doesn't rely on gimmicks, poor map design, or by providing any one race an overwhelming advantage over another. The map structure with two high ground lanes in the center is reminiscent of Cloud Kingdom, one of the greatest maps in StarCraft 2 history, and the winner of the first TLMC.
The base layout is non-intuitive and provides for a lot of strategic depth. For now, we believe the map's main focus will be securing one of the main ridges on the map providing control over various attack paths and protecting most of your bases on the low ground. Keep in mind, there are no vertical spawns on this map, which might take some getting used to. Mining out a gold base does more than provide you with minerals on this map, it gives you an additional attack path. However, the gold base is extremely exposed, making the choice to take it a tactical one. Cross positions will also give a slightly different set of tactical choices and attack paths compared to spawning horizontally making this map almost like a two in one map without relying on top/bottom vs left/right asymmetry.
First Place
CJ Biome by NemRaC
While perhaps not as pretty as the previous two maps, the community was clear that it was seeking a map to radically challenge the norms of 1v1 maps. While Foxtrot subtly pushes the game in interesting directions, Biome is anything but subtle as a 5 player map which breaks all the rules. With forced cross positions, you will always have two bases to scout in order to find your opponent. Rotational symmetry often leads to concerns regarding the third and fourth bases favoring one spawn over another. Surprisingly, Biome seems to break this curse by making everyone's third and fourth bases relatively easy to take and forcing cross spawns.
Well, with easy third and fourth bases you might assume that the games are boring with a lot of turtle play however the air space in this map ensures that this cannot happen. You cannot simply contain your opponent to 4 bases and take the rest of the map. The 360 degree air space you need to defend poses a challenge to turtle play we haven't quite yet seen in StarCraft 2 to date. Warp prisms, dropships, and mutalisks will always be in the back of your mind while playing on this map. The large center also provides a lot of options to outmaneuver any attempt at a contain. Playing this map is all about controlling the center area while staying protected against the gigantic airspace around your four bases. Congratulations NemRaC on your achievement!
1. Biome by NemRaC 2. KTV Foxtrot Labs by Uvantak 3. KTV Kamala Park by Uvantak 4. Deadwing by JessicaSc2 5. Catallena by Timmay
Thank you to everyone who entered, voted or left a comment in any of the TLMC threads. As always it's an honor to be able to host this contest and we look forward to doing it again in the future. Congratulations to all of the winners.
I'm terribly glad you guys liked my maps so much, all those years making maps are worth it! And if they get chosen by blizzard i hope you have fun playing them!
Btw my maps can be found under custom games with the usual KTV tag in the 4 servers, you will find different versions of Kamala Park and Foxtrot Labs, including the original version of Kamala Park with the in-base natural and lack of ramp! The maps are Gameheart ready and are open to edition for any one that wants to check them out in the map editor.
The version that are In custom games are:
Foxtrot Labs (Original Version, same you see here) Foxtrot Labs SE (Standard Edition, same map with some "fun stuff" removed, minor stuff i must add)
Kamala Park (Original Version) Kamala Park MCE (Map Contest Edition, The same version that this TLMC had) Kamala Park SE (Standard Edition, a slightly less turtly version of the map for the Top Right and Bottom Left Spawns)
Also go and check my older maps, i need to rework some of them, some are funky (Monlyth Heights) some others not so much (Foresta & Foresta RS), but they should give you some fun games even if they are a bit older
I'm so pumped by this! That I almost forgot to say congrats to NemRac & IeZ for getting the first places! And thanks to TL & the Strategy team for this competition!
I'm floored. I thought Uvantak was totally getting first and second with Kamala and Foxtrot (either order, they are pretty close). They seemed the clear favorites.
I'm not surprised, nor entirely happy to see Biome win, but it was to expected after all, since the popular vote will always go to the map that stands out the most superficially, due to how the vote splitting works. On the other hand I really like Sacred Path, though its ascension was also influenced by the same sort of thinking.
Of course, ultimately, the results of the contest don't really matter, since Blizzard decides which maps go into the map pool and which don't, and they don't need to consider the results of the vote at all, but I really wish the voting system was more representative (maybe asking users to give a rating to each map?).
I'm floored. I thought Uvantak was totally getting first and second with Kamala and Foxtrot (either order, they are pretty close). They seemed the clear favorites.
yeah it's a 5-player map and that's new and all, but.. ...like... once u have actually spawned, the map offers nothing new or exciting at all, it's not even pretty to look at... i really can't understand people who voted for this over Foxtrot/Kamala...
well.. hope i wont see Biome on the ladder..
would love Kamala tho...
anyways congrats to the winners!
(edit: also i think it would be cool to have a voting system with points for 1st/2nd/3rd place or something)
The fucking Auto-4-base map won? holy shit what the fuck. like do you not understand the zerg can defend all 4 so fucking easily? do you guys know what speedlings are? how fast they are? the map is also horrendous looking
Honestly, I think Preservation and Biome are awful maps and that I could do better. Annoyed to see they did so well. At least both Uvantak maps placed, he's probably my favorite mapmaker at this point
On May 06 2014 09:32 Waxangel wrote: FOXTROT WAS ROBBED
I AGREE!
On May 06 2014 10:36 ShowTheLights wrote: The fucking Auto-4-base map won? holy shit what the fuck. like do you not understand the zerg can defend all 4 so fucking easily? do you guys know what speedlings are? how fast they are? the map is also horrendous looking
well, majority voted for it so gratz i guess
Looks can be fixed. We decided to put one more "macro" oriented map in the top 5 and Biome really won out by the community voting. Personally I liked Foxtrot way more
On May 06 2014 10:36 ShowTheLights wrote: The fucking Auto-4-base map won? holy shit what the fuck. like do you not understand the zerg can defend all 4 so fucking easily? do you guys know what speedlings are? how fast they are? the map is also horrendous looking
CJ Biome's idea is pretty cool, but the free expansions killed it for me. Also, I think that avilo, goody and every other turtle mech player joined forces to get votes for the map
Anyways, congrats!
Hopefully there is going to be a TLMC every season to keep the mapmakers busy
On May 06 2014 10:36 ShowTheLights wrote: The fucking Auto-4-base map won? holy shit what the fuck. like do you not understand the zerg can defend all 4 so fucking easily? do you guys know what speedlings are? how fast they are? the map is also horrendous looking
well, majority voted for it so gratz i guess
Why do you need to be so harsh? Geez.
Because Biome reduces TLMC to near joke levels. Blizzard won't even look twice at it. This TLMC is a really poor representation of what the community is capable of.
On May 06 2014 10:50 silvana wrote: I liked Biome since the beginning
On May 06 2014 10:36 ShowTheLights wrote: The fucking Auto-4-base map won? holy shit what the fuck. like do you not understand the zerg can defend all 4 so fucking easily? do you guys know what speedlings are? how fast they are? the map is also horrendous looking
well, majority voted for it so gratz i guess
Why do you need to be so harsh? Geez.
Because Biome reduces TLMC to near joke levels. Blizzard won't even look twice at it. This TLMC is a really poor representation of what the community is capable of.
My point is that you can express your opinion and disagreement without being an asshole to the people who put so much hours in making the map and making the contest.
Congrats to the winners. Was personally hoping for Kamala Park but oh well. Hope to see at least one of the maps make it onto the ladder, especially the team ones since I play more of those games lately
I can't say I'm a huge fan of biome, but it is certainly a cool map and I look forward to trying it out (as a zerg, hehehehehe). Well won all, especially uventek with the 2nd and 3rd!
I understand a lot of people are upset about Biome making it through when Kamala Park and Foxtrot were both excellent maps. I do want to remind everyone, though, that Habitation Station came in second last TLMC, but was still later picked for usage on ladder due to its excellent and unique design.
In other words, have faith. There's no reason to bash Biome so harshly and shame the SC2 community for "picking a shitty map"; it deserved to be a finalist, and it just so happened that most of the community liked the cool 5-player layout. Winning the contest is not a definitive position with the map's future, nor does it mean that the other maps will be completely overlooked.
This contest was a good thing for the community, and it got us thinking about more interesting ways to create maps. The only restriction on this tournament was that the maps had to be greater than 2-player maps. As a result, we ended with finalists that were all unique, and not even a single one was a standard 4-player map. I believe the mapmakers, as well as the community, have succeeded in pushing map-making in a more positive direction - that's what this contest is all about!
First time I've been disappointed by TLMC results. No reason to shit on the maps though; they got their votes fair and square.
The results do reinforce my personal opinions on the current outlook of SC2 gameplay, however. Map designs that promote excessive resource saturation (e.g. 3 base economy before the 10-minute in-game mark) have skewed the match ups and the way people play the game. It's gotten to a point where people are saying a map is bad if they cannot acquire these resources freely, because the current meta wouldn't be accommodated. I think Biome is a very good example of such community expectation, regardless of my opinion that it's detrimental to the game. In that regard, I can't say I'm surprised it got the first place and its opening sentence mentions "the community was clear".
I'm not convinced it will radically challenge 1v1 gameplay. I think the differences will be nuanced and focus almost entirely on early game scouting. If it gets used by tournaments, I'll be paying close attention to that.
TL;DR I have opinions and congrats to the winners.
Foxtrot looks really interesting and I am excited to see how ZvP plays out. A weird combo of really easy to scout natural gasses, but overall hard main to scout in the bottom left and top right expansions could make for some fun "mind game" While the top right and bottom left are more standard in size and layout, Overall this map makes me the most excited.
However I really like what Biome represents. I don't know if its the best execution (hard to say about any map without play) but damn does it make me excited to see this idea used and in action. And if it ends up not being the best hopefully people can work to refine something similar. Cost and Benifits of turtling vs the easy air harass potential could be interesting to see.
All these maps look amazing to me, I'd love to play on any of them.
To all the people who say that biome is unfair in favor of Zerg, consider that it's easier to keep mutalisks out with turrets than it is to keep drops out with spores. This is about as close as you can get to an island map in modern Starcraft.
Damn, for the firsts time in years I'm really disappointed with the top 1 vs 1 maps, I see huge glaring issues with all of them with people getting fed up of them after 1 season.
Jeez i hate Biodome.... it looks terrible and i feel the whole map is a giant gimmick. No disrespect to the author personally, congratz to him, the majority liked your map, I just don't think Biodome is a good map. Foxtrot on the other hand should be a GSL map, a WCS map, a Ladder map.
Really, just look at the fourth base on Biome, and imagine trying to defend an early fourth base there.....you don't have enough units, and suddenly you have a drop that is bouncing back and fourth between that and the second faster than your speedlings can move, and you also have some units attacking your third, maybe soon dropping into the main (as soon as a couple more medivacs come out). And against Protoss, void-rays will go wild. There's so much space for them to hide.
An early four-base zerg is just asking for pain there. Of course if you can't drop, them you're in trouble
I'm floored. I thought Uvantak was totally getting first and second with Kamala and Foxtrot (either order, they are pretty close). They seemed the clear favorites.
I think he would have won easily in ranked voting system - unless Biome got ~50% of total votes.
I should probably say something of substance instead of just whining. The real disappointment here is that a TLMC designed to produce "multi spawn maps" gave us no 3- or 4-player maps.
On May 06 2014 17:24 EatThePath wrote: I should probably say something of substance instead of just whining. The real disappointment here is that a TLMC designed to produce "multi spawn maps" gave us no 3- or 4-player maps.
On May 06 2014 17:24 EatThePath wrote: I should probably say something of substance instead of just whining. The real disappointment here is that a TLMC designed to produce "multi spawn maps" gave us no 3- or 4-player maps.
Congratulations, all the winning maps deserve it! There were so many excellent entrants this time around, I hope to see many of the maps in the ladder pool
my vote was for kamala, mainly because is not that free the 3rd.
still i have a problem that maps tend to bring 16 bases (with 8 patches) and make too long games. distances are so long, that most players don't care about to send a worker to explore, and then get blind countered by build orders.
tournament organizers actually are heavy focused in a bo3/5/7 format, with group stages of double elimination that trend to make long sessions (ro 32/16 in wcs) and those maps bring longer games, than overall makes me bored.
I mostly disappointed with the trend of huge maps + free expos, every contest bring bigger maps than the previous session.
On May 06 2014 17:58 xuanzue wrote: this has been the most disappointing TLMC yet.
Na, the last one was worse with a map winning that wasnt suited for any form of Starcraft.
But the runner up ended up as very solid addition to the map pool. This may be the case here: Biome has opportunity to proof itself, but if it will fail both 2nd and 3rd map look like good and very solid addition.
Really liked Kamala Park and Foxtrott Labs as a nice and solid maps, but I think you can't deny that CJ Biome benifitet more from it's unconvential look rather than its actual quality. Than again I don't want to take anything away from the winner, the community liked it, so it was well deserved. Congrats to both Uvantak and NemRaC!
Congratulations to the winner, but I'm really disappointed an Uvantak map didn't win. Foxtrot and, especially, Kamala (which was amazingly gorgeous and really fresh to play), were infinitely superior to Biome to my mind. Then again, the community has voted and the choice of the majority shall be accepted, bad though it looks to me.
On May 06 2014 10:54 blacksheepwall wrote: These maps look awesome. Congrats to everyone.
Hopefully TB will start using these maps so we can see some high level games on them.
With most of them, probably not. They're far too standard. I don't see a reason to use CJ Biome over New Pompeii for instance, which is a more interesting map with the same 5 spawn idea. The TLMCs flagrant dismissal of "gimmicks" is also a turnoff. SHOUTcraft isn't interested in running a tournament with ladder maps, everyone else does that and frankly there's nothing wrong with a "gimmick" or two to liven things up.
So the 2v2 map contest is won by an almost 1:1 conversion of a BW map and the 1v1 map contest is won by a map that we will never see in a good tournament or on ladder.
On May 06 2014 10:54 blacksheepwall wrote: These maps look awesome. Congrats to everyone.
Hopefully TB will start using these maps so we can see some high level games on them.
With most of them, probably not. They're far too standard. I don't see a reason to use CJ Biome over New Pompeii for instance, which is a more interesting map with the same 5 spawn idea. The TLMCs flagrant dismissal of "gimmicks" is also a turnoff. SHOUTcraft isn't interested in running a tournament with ladder maps, everyone else does that and frankly there's nothing wrong with a "gimmick" or two to liven things up.
love these maps. love biome just for being weird. dont agree with it being ugly, especially since i think it graphically ties into the old tradition of extremely fucking weird bw maps.
Hahaha congrats Kantu!! It is a shame I can't play SC2 anymore, I always needed to use ladder maps because yours wasn't "known" for the others I was playing, so now shouldn't be any excuse, but my VGA... :'(
On May 06 2014 10:54 blacksheepwall wrote: These maps look awesome. Congrats to everyone.
Hopefully TB will start using these maps so we can see some high level games on them.
With most of them, probably not. They're far too standard. I don't see a reason to use CJ Biome over New Pompeii for instance, which is a more interesting map with the same 5 spawn idea. The TLMCs flagrant dismissal of "gimmicks" is also a turnoff. SHOUTcraft isn't interested in running a tournament with ladder maps, everyone else does that and frankly there's nothing wrong with a "gimmick" or two to liven things up.
Why don't you host a contest then? :o
YES!!!!! TB Plz! I and the other mapmakers have so many ideas that we can't take to fruition because people would whine horribly, Shoutcraft allow us to transform those ideas into solid maps that can be played on, i mean just check some of these maps.
On May 06 2014 23:41 Sogetsu wrote: Hahaha congrats Kantu!! It is a shame I can't play SC2 anymore, I always needed to use ladder maps because yours wasn't "known" for the others I was playing, so now shouldn't be any excuse, but my VGA... :'(
Foxtrot and Kamala look amazing! I really hope blizz add them to ladder because I would love playing on them. I'm not sure about Biome. I like the rounded shape, but I'm afraid the third and fourth expansions are too easy to defend. We'll have to see I guess. Great job map makers!
On May 06 2014 23:07 FlopTurnReaver wrote: So the 2v2 map contest is won by an almost 1:1 conversion of a BW map and the 1v1 map contest is won by a map that we will never see in a good tournament or on ladder.
On May 06 2014 10:54 blacksheepwall wrote: These maps look awesome. Congrats to everyone.
Hopefully TB will start using these maps so we can see some high level games on them.
With most of them, probably not. They're far too standard. I don't see a reason to use CJ Biome over New Pompeii for instance, which is a more interesting map with the same 5 spawn idea. The TLMCs flagrant dismissal of "gimmicks" is also a turnoff. SHOUTcraft isn't interested in running a tournament with ladder maps, everyone else does that and frankly there's nothing wrong with a "gimmick" or two to liven things up.
like i said in the other thread, i voted biome because it's bold and weird and i like both of those things the job of selecting well balanced maps for ladder play falls on blizzard. my job as a voter was to vote for what i'd like to play on :D
this community doesnt deserve better maps rofl.....fucking idiots how can aynone vote for biome if you still have one braincell left after you played this game for 3 years. fucking idiots
On May 06 2014 23:07 FlopTurnReaver wrote: So the 2v2 map contest is won by an almost 1:1 conversion of a BW map and the 1v1 map contest is won by a map that we will never see in a good tournament or on ladder.
On May 06 2014 10:54 blacksheepwall wrote: These maps look awesome. Congrats to everyone.
Hopefully TB will start using these maps so we can see some high level games on them.
With most of them, probably not. They're far too standard. I don't see a reason to use CJ Biome over New Pompeii for instance, which is a more interesting map with the same 5 spawn idea. The TLMCs flagrant dismissal of "gimmicks" is also a turnoff. SHOUTcraft isn't interested in running a tournament with ladder maps, everyone else does that and frankly there's nothing wrong with a "gimmick" or two to liven things up.
Well, TL has two options: either they can run a completely irrelevant contest with creative maps (which Blizzard will never even look at and thus they will be quickly forgotten thanks to the WCS map pool dictatorship) or an utterly boring one with some real impact. Not an easy choice.
I liked biome as well. Pretty innovative even if there are some flaws. Having the guts to submit something like this is great. Props to all the creators though, great maps.
On May 07 2014 02:13 Meerel wrote: this community doesnt deserve better maps rofl.....[censored] [censored] how can aynone vote for biome if you still have one braincell left after you played this game for 3 years. [censored] [censored]
While Meerel does express himself offensively, I do get where he (as well as the others who criticized Biome in this thread) is coming from. I must admit that I cought myself smiling (frankly, on the borderline of laughing) akwardly when Biome was nominated. With the results announced though, my smile disappeared very quickly, seeing as Biome placed first. I tried to resist commenting it - I really tried. I do not have any kind of hate towards the map nor the author (I actually don't know him, so no offense intented), I just happen to have a hard time wrapping my head around it placing first, when there's so many maps of higher quality. If anybody wants me to elaborate why I think it's a map of lower quality than at least a handful of other candidates, feel free to say so in a private message.
That said, I congratulate both winners - ending up in a TLMC top 3 is a great achievement - something to be proud of. I wish you the best.
I am really curious, why did the Reb Bull TLMC winner (New Polaris Rhapsody) never got played anywhere (except at RBB) whereas the second place is now a staple of tournaments (Habitation Station)
I just wonder what happened, I wanted to check if 2nd and 3rd place still have a chance
On May 07 2014 05:12 fezvez wrote: I am really curious, why did the Reb Bull TLMC winner (New Polaris Rhapsody) never got played anywhere (except at RBB) whereas the second place is now a staple of tournaments (Habitation Station)
I just wonder what happened, I wanted to check if 2nd and 3rd place still have a chance
On May 07 2014 05:12 fezvez wrote: I am really curious, why did the Reb Bull TLMC winner (New Polaris Rhapsody) never got played anywhere (except at RBB) whereas the second place is now a staple of tournaments (Habitation Station)
I just wonder what happened, I wanted to check if 2nd and 3rd place still have a chance
because blizzard is not obligated to use the winning maps for official ladder or tournament pools, it is still their decision. it would be a bit silly for a handful of fans on TL to be able to vote any map they want into the official map pool
On May 06 2014 10:54 blacksheepwall wrote: These maps look awesome. Congrats to everyone.
Hopefully TB will start using these maps so we can see some high level games on them.
With most of them, probably not. They're far too standard. I don't see a reason to use CJ Biome over New Pompeii for instance, which is a more interesting map with the same 5 spawn idea. The TLMCs flagrant dismissal of "gimmicks" is also a turnoff. SHOUTcraft isn't interested in running a tournament with ladder maps, everyone else does that and frankly there's nothing wrong with a "gimmick" or two to liven things up.
And you're more than welcome to do that. SHOUTcraft adds an invaluable platform for maps to be played at the highest level, and in turn add more knowledge about what features work and which don't to the map community as a whole. Franky, I'm glad that we have an avenue like that and Red Bull Battlegrounds where non-standard maps have a place to shine and be seen. However this contest is firstly about providing a balanced maps for consideration for ladder, and with that objective the results are always going to be more vanilla than SHOUTcraft.
On May 07 2014 03:30 opisska wrote: Well, TL has two options: either they can run a completely irrelevant contest with creative maps (which Blizzard will never even look at and thus they will be quickly forgotten thanks to the WCS map pool dictatorship) or an utterly boring one with some real impact. Not an easy choice.
Jeez some of you guys are a bunch of ninnies. Too much variation, not enough variety, etc. I think the reason we have so many captain standard maps is because they don't offend anyone.
On May 07 2014 07:29 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Jeez some of you guys are a bunch of ninnies. Too much variation, not enough variety, etc. I think the reason we have so many captain standard maps is because they don't offend anyone.
Check this first, this is the list of all the maps that were published here on TL
On May 07 2014 05:12 fezvez wrote: I am really curious, why did the Reb Bull TLMC winner (New Polaris Rhapsody) never got played anywhere (except at RBB) whereas the second place is now a staple of tournaments (Habitation Station)
I just wonder what happened, I wanted to check if 2nd and 3rd place still have a chance
Probably because most tournaments lack gumption and are terrified players will freak out if they put anything other than ladder maps into their pool.
On May 07 2014 05:12 fezvez wrote: I am really curious, why did the Reb Bull TLMC winner (New Polaris Rhapsody) never got played anywhere (except at RBB) whereas the second place is now a staple of tournaments (Habitation Station)
I just wonder what happened, I wanted to check if 2nd and 3rd place still have a chance
Probably because most tournaments lack gumption and are terrified players will freak out if they put anything other than ladder maps into their pool.
i like experimentation and new-for-the-sake-of-new as much as anyone, hell, i voted biome. i like metagame shifts as much as anyone. i understand that the lack of participation in shoutcraft bothers you because you're trying to do something good for the viewers. but it's unnecessary and kind of rude and hostile for you to insult the players and orgs who provide the content we're all here to watch by saying that they're "terrified" and insinuating that the pros are having hissy fits because they want to maximize their success and earnings in high-pressure tournaments and avoid situations where they lose to a mechanically inferior player just because that player practiced the map a few more times beforehand
you openly advertise the fact that koreans have struggled in shoutcraft due to foreign teams studying the maps and taking wins off of them for pride. and i understand that. the storyline of foreigners beating koreans is a hot button issue and something that a lot of people get excited about. but if i'm watching shoutcraft and i know a strong korean player is foundering because he didn't prepare for the map and he looks lost while playing on it, that's not something i personally find exciting. it comes off as more of a parlor trick than a community service. if you're a professional wrestler and i invite you to my backyard wrestling match with all sorts of zany made-up rules and pitfalls and gimmicks in the ring, aren't you going to say "hmm, this guy wants to take some money off of me for his buddies who already know the local rules" and think twice about showing up?
i don't blame you for what you're trying to do, but with posts like this it's like you're angry that they're not falling for the trap so you shout "cluck cluck, CHICKEN! come at us, bros!". you want to boast that they don't understand how to win at your tournament, but then you complain when they don't show up. why would they knowingly walk into an unfavorable situation? it's not the players' job to partner with you in creating a new metagame. if some players choose to do so then that's great and i applaud them, but i don't see why you have to snark and condescend to those who choose not to
On May 07 2014 05:12 fezvez wrote: I am really curious, why did the Reb Bull TLMC winner (New Polaris Rhapsody) never got played anywhere (except at RBB) whereas the second place is now a staple of tournaments (Habitation Station)
I just wonder what happened, I wanted to check if 2nd and 3rd place still have a chance
if you're a professional wrestler and i invite you to my backyard wrestling match with all sorts of zany made-up rules and pitfalls and gimmicks in the ring, aren't you going to say "hmm, this guy wants to take some money off of me for his buddies who already know the local rules" and think twice about showing up?
The wrestling comparison to the Shoutcraft tournament is a little off. It's more like this: First: "You" are a wrestler! An amateur perhaps and only with average skills, but you know what wrestling is all about and how it works. Then you invite professional players to your "backyard" for a couple of matches. And you tell them in the very beginning, that there will be "zany made-up rules and pitfalls and gimmicks in the ring" and it will be a little bit different. But they can come around any time, no charge, and check it out and make themselves comfortable with the setting. And the professional player agrees to that, but only thinks "ha, easy money, beating the crap out of this lowskiller!" and never shows up to check out the premises. And after the first match, that he looses because of the "twists" there are, he is not like "oh, damn, I have to check it out 2-3 times, so I can still beat the crap out of these lowskiller!" but he is angry and only shows up if he really has nothing else to do ... still without any real knowledge what is going on.
If you can say "cluck cluck, CHICKEN! come at us, bros!" we can discuss, but it's definitely not very nice, how it turned out!
Back to Starcraft: There were actually quite a few tournament or special matches - especially in BW - where players had to play on unknown/uncomfortable maps. These were only for "show off" most of the time, but I believe, that especially the "underdogs" actually tried to learn these maps, so that they can "boast" a win over a top-class player! Basically that's it all about in these matches!
Back to this TLMC: I can totally understand the win of Biome. People want to see more than the usual "2/4-player in symmetric corners" maps. Maybe Biome is a little "overboard" and some small "twists" would be enough, but most of "us" are not playing competitive, but for fun. And Biome seems like real fun! Checking new things out, playing "completely" different than usual ... that's what keeps us playing. We are not on the level of "ok, I have to train this build 30 times, so I get it always right and on the mark". THAT's boring! ... but if you want to be on the top you probably have to do this!
Biome looks really interesting. It would be quite fun to see some games on it!
I would like to see a good map maker create a map that would make a stab at the economy system. Like make the bases with just one gas and less mineral patches but increase the amount of each to match the total to what we have now. Maybe on the map there could be a few bases to expand to with two gases or several mineral patches.
Make it more difficult to max out on a few bases forcing people to expand more and spread out the action. Big changes yes....but fun experiment.
On May 07 2014 17:36 Daeracon wrote: Biome looks really interesting. It would be quite fun to see some games on it!
I would like to see a good map maker create a map that would make a stab at the economy system. Like make the bases with just one gas and less mineral patches but increase the amount of each to match the total to what we have now. Maybe on the map there could be a few bases to expand to with two gases or several mineral patches.
Make it more difficult to max out on a few bases forcing people to expand more and spread out the action. Big changes yes....but fun experiment.
On May 07 2014 17:36 Daeracon wrote: Biome looks really interesting. It would be quite fun to see some games on it!
I would like to see a good map maker create a map that would make a stab at the economy system. Like make the bases with just one gas and less mineral patches but increase the amount of each to match the total to what we have now. Maybe on the map there could be a few bases to expand to with two gases or several mineral patches.
Make it more difficult to max out on a few bases forcing people to expand more and spread out the action. Big changes yes....but fun experiment.
This was actually a really big thing in the mapmaking community a while ago.
Really disappointed that Biome actually won as I believe the only reason it won is because it's a 5p map and because it has "testbug/dualsight like" textures. Either way, I did my write up in the other thread if you really want to know my thoughts on all the 5 1v1 maps. To be fair though, Blizzard doesn't have to take 1st place, so I'm still hoping they just pick up Foxtrot since it is without a doubt the best map out of the final 5.
As for team maps, I do like Sacred Path & Preservation a lot, but since anybody who has ever watched Shoutcraft would have seen Sacred Path in action, it does seem maybe it was a little unfair since players will most likely just vote for it because they've seen it played out. Either way, I'm hoping Blizzard picks up Sacred Path and Preservation.
On May 07 2014 17:36 Daeracon wrote: Biome looks really interesting. It would be quite fun to see some games on it!
I would like to see a good map maker create a map that would make a stab at the economy system. Like make the bases with just one gas and less mineral patches but increase the amount of each to match the total to what we have now. Maybe on the map there could be a few bases to expand to with two gases or several mineral patches.
Make it more difficult to max out on a few bases forcing people to expand more and spread out the action. Big changes yes....but fun experiment.
This was actually a really big thing in the mapmaking community a while ago.
Ok, too bad I missed it then. I will see if I find some nice replays/vods of that.
On May 07 2014 22:36 SidianTheBard wrote: Blizzard doesn't have to take 1st place
Blizzard doesn't have to take any of the finalists. And I don't just say that because Blizzard hasn't officially committed to anything, but also because unlike at the Red Bull TLMC, this time there was no tournament of pros playing on the finalists which means that from Blizzard's perspective, the only thing that sets the finalists apart from all other submitted maps is that the TLMC jury considers those maps to be superior in some regards. And going by the majority of posts in this thread, that jury's judgment seems not entirely uncontroversial.
So Blizzard saying "we'll use this top-three map on the ladder next season rather than some other cool map because that one didn't make the finalists" would be like saying "the TLMC jury knows better what kind of maps we want on ladder than we do ourselves" which would be really weird and stupid.
The Red Bull TLMC was a proving ground. TLMC4 was a popularity contest. I had planned to use this to my advantage by submitting an entirely beach-themed map, but my plan was discovered and the map didn't make the finalists because the TLMC staff was afraid it would be getting all the votes. At least that's what I'm convinced happened, because otherwise I'd surely have won this contest.
On May 08 2014 00:46 And G wrote:The Red Bull TLMC was a proving ground. TLMC4 was a popularity contest. I had planned to use this to my advantage by submitting an entirely beach-themed map, but my plan was discovered and the map didn't make the finalists because the TLMC staff was afraid it would be getting all the votes. At least that's what I'm convinced happened, because otherwise I'd surely have won this contest.
On May 07 2014 22:36 SidianTheBard wrote: Blizzard doesn't have to take 1st place
Blizzard doesn't have to take any of the finalists. And I don't just say that because Blizzard hasn't officially committed to anything, but also because unlike at the Red Bull TLMC, this time there was no tournament of pros playing on the finalists which means that from Blizzard's perspective, the only thing that sets the finalists apart from all other submitted maps is that the TLMC jury considers those maps to be superior in some regards. And going by the majority of posts in this thread, that jury's judgment seems not entirely uncontroversial.
So Blizzard saying "we'll use this top-three map on the ladder next season rather than some other cool map because that one didn't make the finalists" would be like saying "the TLMC jury knows better what kind of maps we want on ladder than we do ourselves" which would be really weird and stupid.
The Red Bull TLMC was a proving ground. TLMC4 was a popularity contest. I had planned to use this to my advantage by submitting an entirely beach-themed map, but my plan was discovered and the map didn't make the finalists because the TLMC staff was afraid it would be getting all the votes. At least that's what I'm convinced happened, because otherwise I'd surely have won this contest.
Sorry mate but you're about 2 years late. Combinations of natural and technical textures are all the rage right now. Or just use as many different looking ambiente types as possible, seems to work great too.
On May 07 2014 22:36 SidianTheBard wrote: Blizzard doesn't have to take 1st place
Blizzard doesn't have to take any of the finalists. And I don't just say that because Blizzard hasn't officially committed to anything, but also because unlike at the Red Bull TLMC, this time there was no tournament of pros playing on the finalists which means that from Blizzard's perspective, the only thing that sets the finalists apart from all other submitted maps is that the TLMC jury considers those maps to be superior in some regards. And going by the majority of posts in this thread, that jury's judgment seems not entirely uncontroversial.
So Blizzard saying "we'll use this top-three map on the ladder next season rather than some other cool map because that one didn't make the finalists" would be like saying "the TLMC jury knows better what kind of maps we want on ladder than we do ourselves" which would be really weird and stupid.
The Red Bull TLMC was a proving ground. TLMC4 was a popularity contest. I had planned to use this to my advantage by submitting an entirely beach-themed map, but my plan was discovered and the map didn't make the finalists because the TLMC staff was afraid it would be getting all the votes. At least that's what I'm convinced happened, because otherwise I'd surely have won this contest.
A little butthurt much? Many maps didn't make it simply because they had a minor or major design issues that broke the map. Many maps would have made it if there was a 'correction' period in which TL strat came back to mapmakers of maps that had minor issues, and let them fix those issues. However, as a result of the small time window, there was no time for such a thing. Thus, we have a group of finalists that just got it right the first time. So, I will say that this TLMC was a bit sloppy, yet the idea of TLMC is still young, and things are bound to happen that will lead to future changes. Overall though, better to have a TLMC than no TLMC at all.
Some tournaments do have unusual maps. Proleague right now is using Maze which is weird, but whatever. The RedBull tournament had a map with Lava on it.
I am so glad lava didn't become standard in the ladder.
On May 08 2014 00:46 And G wrote: The Red Bull TLMC was a proving ground. TLMC4 was a popularity contest. I had planned to use this to my advantage by submitting an entirely beach-themed map, but my plan was discovered and the map didn't make the finalists because the TLMC staff was afraid it would be getting all the votes. At least that's what I'm convinced happened, because otherwise I'd surely have won this contest.
I hope this last bit was serious, I found it quite funny.
On May 08 2014 00:46 And G wrote: The Red Bull TLMC was a proving ground. TLMC4 was a popularity contest. I had planned to use this to my advantage by submitting an entirely beach-themed map, but my plan was discovered and the map didn't make the finalists because the TLMC staff was afraid it would be getting all the votes. At least that's what I'm convinced happened, because otherwise I'd surely have won this contest.
Best paragraph in the thread. The Walrus will rise again!
Oh biome is a really bad map. I mean it looks okay but you can so easily just get 4 bases... it doesn't seem fun to play on. There were so many better maps. Oh well, voters preferred it so that is that.
On May 08 2014 12:15 NewSunshine wrote: I hope this last bit was serious, I found it quite funny.
Not quite serious. I chose that theme because I'm horrible at aesthetics and sand plus a few trees seemed easy to do. (It still took me a lot of time...)
On May 08 2014 06:55 Timetwister22 wrote: A little butthurt much?
Nah, apart from the fact that a map like Biome actually won. I'm not denying that some maps didn't make the finalists simply because they were poorly executed, and that this may apply to my own maps as well. I'm just saying that from Blizzard's perspective there is nothing that makes the top three stand out above other good maps (or perhaps "interesting maps" is a better choice of words, since the qualities of Biome have been called into question by like half of the posters in this thread) that didn't make the finalists, and the whole selection process wasn't transparent at all. So why would Blizzard want to confine themselves to choosing only from the top three? It makes no sense to me.
On May 08 2014 12:15 NewSunshine wrote: I hope this last bit was serious, I found it quite funny.
Not quite serious. I chose that theme because I'm horrible at aesthetics and sand plus a few trees seemed easy to do. (It still took me a lot of time...)
On May 08 2014 06:55 Timetwister22 wrote: A little butthurt much?
Nah, apart from the fact that a map like Biome actually won. I'm not denying that some maps didn't make the finalists simply because they were poorly executed, and that this may apply to my own maps as well. I'm just saying that from Blizzard's perspective there is nothing that makes the top three stand out above other good maps (or perhaps "interesting maps" is a better choice of words, since the qualities of Biome have been called into question by like half of the posters in this thread) that didn't make the finalists, and the whole selection process wasn't transparent at all. So why would Blizzard want to confine themselves to choosing only from the top three? It makes no sense to me.
It was open to a public vote based on the maps that were decided were playable. Those who voted very clearly wanted biome to win.
Serioulsy 20 base maps need to go!!!!!....everyone whines about alterzim and waystation etc...and yet somehow biome wins. I was shocked at the finalists...so many better options IMO. But yeah biome sucks....I'm sorry. It's super UGLY to boot....I'm all for different tilesets in maps but it just looks so amateur.
Luckily Blizzard has been more sensible than the community before, adding Habitation Station to ladder and making us all forget that lava map which won that TLMC...
Don't you think Sacred Paths could be used for 1v1? it's super interesting, I wonder if you had a Shakuras Plateau spin, where you can only spawn on opposite sides of the wall.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/TLMC4/kamala_small.jpg)
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