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On May 02 2014 05:25 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 05:15 Existor wrote:On May 02 2014 04:39 cheekymonkey wrote:
point is, it's not just about defending swarm hosts, it's about being able to push forward with some sort of mobility. You see terran edging their way across the maps only get get all their expansions harassed or killed because they need their entire maxed army to deal with swarmhosts. Thats why Terrans have biggest amount of AOE weapons of all races, and half of these AOE weapons are semi-free. So don't try to argue about free units, when you have: - widow mines - seeker missiles - hellbats - cruiser yamatos - siege tanks - anti-air thor splash Remember that 15 Siege tanks can hold 30 Swarm Hosts. Not including vipers, vikings, widow mine shots, seekers, broodlords, etc Mines friendly fire and do laughable splash vs not Zealots/clumped banelings, HSM comes off a 100/200/60 unit requiring a 200/125 production building and fires once per 2 and a half minutes, hardly free, Hellbats deal hardly any damage in larger fights, mostly soak damage, Yamato isn't splash, Siege Tanks are rubbish vs non zerg all ins/tvt, everybody knows that, Anti-air Thor only vs Mass Mutalisk. The problem is Siege Tanks not being able to move forward. Not that they can't hold them. Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 05:16 SirPinky wrote:On May 02 2014 00:33 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 02 2014 00:26 SirPinky wrote:On May 02 2014 00:01 Big J wrote:On May 01 2014 23:54 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 01 2014 23:47 Big J wrote:On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote:
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.
Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]
--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans
--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)
on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps
EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.
not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.
so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense. You are completely clueless. Typically you are not the kind of guy to make such posts... yup, but I'm getting annoyed that this kind of stuff does not get warnings here. It's just a massive whine post based on made up "facts" like Terrans using ghosts to counter infestors or using ravens with their bio. Not to mention what happens when you 1a banelings and mutalisks into a player that has mines set up and is using Thors and Marauders. Everything just blows up on the wrong stuff, takes massive splash hits and the marines stim forward and kill the 5remaining mutalisks and zerglings. It's such a disgusting way to dennounce a third of the playerbase, not to mention so many progamers. Not to mention that it completely misses the mark on what the actual problems in ZvT are, which is Terran not being able to get the needed economy in the lategame and being stuck on a max of 4bases once the Zerg player gets enough mutas. I guess you don't watch Avilo stream. He uses Ravens with Bio all the time and uses 6+ hotkeys. I don't see how that is a "made up" fact. Avilo is indeed the epitome of an excellent player with great mechanics. Also, he plays obnoxious styles that usually only work because his opponent either hasn't ever faced it, or they just don't feel like playing verse somebody willing to turtle for literally 90 minutes and just troll and have fun. Have I already said Avilo never loses a legitimate game, only to "fuckers who cheese and have no skill and all in and doom drop and amove because op"? And he refers to people who criticize him as haters so he can ignore them instead of going for a confrontation. rofl. Nope, don't use Avilo as an example for anything. Somebody that respectless to everybody for no real reason doesn't deserve to be respected either. Your reply completely side-stepped the point. The post was about multiple hotkey control with Terran versus Zerg and you claimed compositions like Raven and Bio are a baseless example - when indeed it is not - Avilo uses it regularly. I've said numerous times control groups and player execution and/or mechanics are set to different standards for different races. The fact you have a player like Stephano only require 4 hotkeys to play the race is pretty shocking if you ask me (even GoOdy uses 5 hotkeys). Furthermore, the fact that Zerg can pre-hotkey eggs and set them as part of the control group with their army (before they hatch), also speaks to reducing the skill ceiling - why can't terran pre-hotkey units in production? The reduced WM damage rewards Zergs that are not as micro oriented. You're right, Zergs used to be punished far more for "clumping" units with the higher level splash, but now it has made it easier for muta/banse to roll through a WM line. And don't even get me started on SH as a unit that requires "skill." This "annoying" style has been created by Blizzard and anyone that wants to go mech has to sit there and build up Raven energy - real fun. And there are some finer points about Avilo that you missed: He does bm's peoples playstyle but not the person; therefore, holding lack of respect for a persons ability in the game, is far different from not respecting the person. For instance, Idra would attack the person instead of the play. Contrary to Idra, who arguably had little respect for anyone, Avilo comments on playstyle, which usually evolves from his opponents cheesy play or comments on balance. I think someone who can beat Nestea on a meta ladder game demands some level of respect in their playstyle. Dude. You're so obviously an Avilo fanboy. Those rare times I enjoy myself laughing at him on his stream he says this kind of rubbish all the time. 4 Hotkeys for Zerg can still mean 3 hotkeys for army, 1 for hatches and the queens can be controlled via screen locations, a way a lot of Zergs inject. Avilo Bms people regularly. Every game, mostly. BMing a style for being retarded and skillless etcetera is exactly the same as BMing the person executing said style, by the way. Especially for a hypocrite that uses his own made up strategy of which the succes rate is the highest only because nobody plays that stupid. IdrA actually did respect good players, just not the scrubs. He had oither problems. Also, he was succesful. But I'm not going for a Avilo vs Idra debate. Nestea isn't the pro he once was, and the fact you need to draw off one game against a player who has never experienced a certain style before is... well, it kinda speaks for itself.
Avilo made up his own play style? Nobody plays TvZ mech? I think you need to watch more Sc2 - GoOdy, Strelok, HTOMario, Dayshi. And I really can't believe you are defending <=4 hotkey play from top Pro's - it's not like I put my Rax, CC, Starport, Factory all on one hotkey. As for Avilo, he has never told someone to "get cancer and die" or "David Kim should get raped by a tire iron." I can't say the same for Idra, so defending someone that spews such comments says a lot about the kind of people you support.
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IdrA actually did respect good players, just not the scrubs.
If memory serves me. I think IdrA only respected 3 or 4 non-zergs as a "good" players. 2 Korean Terrans and rain or something like that.
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On May 02 2014 05:18 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 05:05 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 02 2014 05:03 scypio wrote:On May 02 2014 03:10 Hider wrote:On May 02 2014 02:45 scypio wrote:On May 02 2014 02:34 TheDwf wrote:On May 02 2014 02:30 scypio wrote:great change that will make absolutely no difference in 95% of games whatsoever  Fairly sure TvT and TvZ represent more than 5% of the games played. TvT balance is not all that crucial... and for TvZ - hmm... I wonder how many T players have the APM to spare while fighting LBM muta balls to do even more micro. One thing that may be helpful - T keeps his 6/8 initial hellions and hits a timing transforming them into hellbats. If it works... then T will get nerfed again. It's not? Hellion openings are already very common in TvT and mech really doesn't seem very weak in midgame (unlike in WOL). So any earlygame midgame buff to mech could have a significant effect. If this goes through, I am definitely gonna use mech as my standard play. TvZ - Already pointed out previously that I think it creates a totally unncesary buff to terran early game. If you buff terran early game by x%, then the effect it will have in the midgame (balancewise) will be much larger than x% due to the snowball effect. So assuming David Kim is aware that TvZ midgame perhaps is favored of zerg by roughly 10%, then making a change that buffs terran by 10% in the early game (or around 10-11 minute mark) is suddenly gonna make the matchup very terran favored in the midgame. I think he should just reduce cost to 50/50 for this upgrade instead of making it free. OK, sorry, I found out the hellbat madness all too funny to make it stop so I'd happily see it happen once again. The TvZ - yeah, that's a buff, it opens timings etc. But - just as I said - a timing-base game is something rather disappointing. Blizzard already fixed TvP by letting terran have 0 timings, no point in having one in TvZ too. Dude, don't be so negative. This change can open up a ton of different builds we know nothing about yet! Also, Hellbat TvT was not funny - at all. Get's kinda lame to play rock paper scissors games for 10 minutes every TvT. I remember a discussion regarding TvP, where one dude said "Hey, you are not supposed to attack before 10 minute mark!". That's the right highlight of the "correct" TvX opening, with ideally only one valid option per MU. Things are looking pretty good right now: - open reaper-expand in TvP and go for a poke at 10 minutes (just saw Kas met by 11 stalkers, 6 sentries and MSC off 3 base at this time - Frost, lol). - open reaper-hellion-banshee in TvZ and get chased away by a bunch of queens. Everything else (like potential 11-minute 6-hellbat biotank timing) will be called unstoppable and nerfed into the ground. Yeah, once in a blue moon something gimmicky will work (2rax on habitation station?), still this will make no difference.
That's kind of like saying that PvT is silly because you almost always open 1-gate expand, or ZvT is silly because hatch first into speedling / mass queen is common.
Just because reaper-expand is so prevalent doesn't mean anything - follow-ups into 1/1/1, 3rax, 2rax/factory, 2rax/eng bay, are all utilized in TvP.
Same with the hellion opening; you see fast third cc's, fast 3rax (polt), or banshee play following up the reaper production quite commonly.
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On May 02 2014 05:35 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 05:31 MattMannion wrote:
do you guys really need to start a fight about everything? i find tvp really hard to win, so i practice it with a partner and try to find faults instead of qq. maybe everyone needs to work together and solve problems instead of fixing units that really aren't the root of the issue. one thing everyone needs to realize is, the player beat you, not the race. If you play the game and you aren't in GSL code S or WCS Premier AM / EU then clearly there is room for improvement, no matter which race you play. If you are watching the game and feel that it's a bit stale / dull / too predictable and oftentimes one-sided at top level then improving from silver to gold will not help.
sure but that doesn't mean people can't work together and solve the problems they have. if the game feels that way then you(or who ever) should maybe find something else to do or take a break, its doesn't always mean you need to mess with the game.
theres tons of strategies and stuff to work on and figure out, even the people at the top are still getting better. i just watched a gsl 2012 vod earlier and they looked like diamond players. point is, its not the games fault entirely for peoples issues .
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Northern Ireland27480 Posts
I know there is a ridiculous amount of things I can improve off to compete with my peers, the issue is how much you can be reasonably expected to do relative to said peers for many people, as well as how the game is functioning at the top level as a spectator activity.
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just focus on you, there's no need to worry about those things in my opinion. just do you/play your game. sure the game can feel one sided, but sometimes the most frustrating games were just even matches. hell i can't change the way everyone feels about it, but i figured i'd chime in since the complaining is always so fierce when im on a stream or reading these forums :/.
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I wish blizzard would reconsider the design of the swarm host. I don't believe most people appreciate watching SH-based play.
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On May 02 2014 05:17 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 05:12 NLWiNtER wrote:
Do both, I don't mind as a protoss, but please Delete SH! That unit gonna kill the game eventually. So boring to watch an paly against!! SH must be redesigned, not deleted. Make him more close-range (remove enduring locust), buff locusts, so make Swarm Hosts more close-range (like tempest). Right now Swarm Hosts are semi-22 range, like old Tempests were
I thought about making the locust footprint bigger somehow and reducing their speed. That'd make the more resilient to splash but way less mobile and have way less DPS/Area. That might encourage spreading them out more.On May 02 2014 05:18 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 05:05 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 02 2014 05:03 scypio wrote:On May 02 2014 03:10 Hider wrote:On May 02 2014 02:45 scypio wrote:On May 02 2014 02:34 TheDwf wrote:On May 02 2014 02:30 scypio wrote:great change that will make absolutely no difference in 95% of games whatsoever Fairly sure TvT and TvZ represent more than 5% of the games played. TvT balance is not all that crucial... and for TvZ - hmm... I wonder how many T players have the APM to spare while fighting LBM muta balls to do even more micro. One thing that may be helpful - T keeps his 6/8 initial hellions and hits a timing transforming them into hellbats. If it works... then T will get nerfed again. It's not? Hellion openings are already very common in TvT and mech really doesn't seem very weak in midgame (unlike in WOL). So any earlygame midgame buff to mech could have a significant effect. If this goes through, I am definitely gonna use mech as my standard play. TvZ - Already pointed out previously that I think it creates a totally unncesary buff to terran early game. If you buff terran early game by x%, then the effect it will have in the midgame (balancewise) will be much larger than x% due to the snowball effect. So assuming David Kim is aware that TvZ midgame perhaps is favored of zerg by roughly 10%, then making a change that buffs terran by 10% in the early game (or around 10-11 minute mark) is suddenly gonna make the matchup very terran favored in the midgame. I think he should just reduce cost to 50/50 for this upgrade instead of making it free. OK, sorry, I found out the hellbat madness all too funny to make it stop so I'd happily see it happen once again. The TvZ - yeah, that's a buff, it opens timings etc. But - just as I said - a timing-base game is something rather disappointing. Blizzard already fixed TvP by letting terran have 0 timings, no point in having one in TvZ too. Dude, don't be so negative. This change can open up a ton of different builds we know nothing about yet! Also, Hellbat TvT was not funny - at all. Get's kinda lame to play rock paper scissors games for 10 minutes every TvT. I remember a discussion regarding TvP, where one dude said "Hey, you are not supposed to attack before 10 minute mark!". That's the right highlight of the "correct" TvX opening, with ideally only one valid option per MU. Things are looking pretty good right now: - open reaper-expand in TvP and go for a poke at 10 minutes (just saw Kas met by 11 stalkers, 6 sentries and MSC off 3 base at this time - Frost, lol). - open reaper-hellion-banshee in TvZ and get chased away by a bunch of queens. Everything else (like potential 11-minute 6-hellbat biotank timing) will be called unstoppable and nerfed into the ground. Yeah, once in a blue moon something gimmicky will work (2rax on habitation station?), still this will make no difference.
In TvP it won't change much I am afraid, but TvZ, it might be lethal.
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On May 02 2014 05:56 MattMannion wrote:
just focus on you, there's no need to worry about those things in my opinion. just do you/play your game. sure the game can feel one sided, but sometimes the most frustrating games were just even matches. hell i can't change the way everyone feels about it, but i figured i'd chime in since the complaining is always so fierce when im on a stream or reading these forums :/.
This has little to do with playing the game, it's more about watching it really. Well, maybe it matters a bit for guys like TheDwf, as he is at least trying to get to WCS challenger league etc.
I've been watching this game for a couple of years, it had it's high and lows and I'd say things a looking rather grim right now.
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On May 02 2014 05:36 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 05:25 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 02 2014 05:15 Existor wrote:On May 02 2014 04:39 cheekymonkey wrote:
point is, it's not just about defending swarm hosts, it's about being able to push forward with some sort of mobility. You see terran edging their way across the maps only get get all their expansions harassed or killed because they need their entire maxed army to deal with swarmhosts. Thats why Terrans have biggest amount of AOE weapons of all races, and half of these AOE weapons are semi-free. So don't try to argue about free units, when you have: - widow mines - seeker missiles - hellbats - cruiser yamatos - siege tanks - anti-air thor splash Remember that 15 Siege tanks can hold 30 Swarm Hosts. Not including vipers, vikings, widow mine shots, seekers, broodlords, etc Mines friendly fire and do laughable splash vs not Zealots/clumped banelings, HSM comes off a 100/200/60 unit requiring a 200/125 production building and fires once per 2 and a half minutes, hardly free, Hellbats deal hardly any damage in larger fights, mostly soak damage, Yamato isn't splash, Siege Tanks are rubbish vs non zerg all ins/tvt, everybody knows that, Anti-air Thor only vs Mass Mutalisk. The problem is Siege Tanks not being able to move forward. Not that they can't hold them. On May 02 2014 05:16 SirPinky wrote:On May 02 2014 00:33 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 02 2014 00:26 SirPinky wrote:On May 02 2014 00:01 Big J wrote:On May 01 2014 23:54 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 01 2014 23:47 Big J wrote:On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote:
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.
Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]
--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans
--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)
on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps
EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.
not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.
so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense. You are completely clueless. Typically you are not the kind of guy to make such posts... yup, but I'm getting annoyed that this kind of stuff does not get warnings here. It's just a massive whine post based on made up "facts" like Terrans using ghosts to counter infestors or using ravens with their bio. Not to mention what happens when you 1a banelings and mutalisks into a player that has mines set up and is using Thors and Marauders. Everything just blows up on the wrong stuff, takes massive splash hits and the marines stim forward and kill the 5remaining mutalisks and zerglings. It's such a disgusting way to dennounce a third of the playerbase, not to mention so many progamers. Not to mention that it completely misses the mark on what the actual problems in ZvT are, which is Terran not being able to get the needed economy in the lategame and being stuck on a max of 4bases once the Zerg player gets enough mutas. I guess you don't watch Avilo stream. He uses Ravens with Bio all the time and uses 6+ hotkeys. I don't see how that is a "made up" fact. Avilo is indeed the epitome of an excellent player with great mechanics. Also, he plays obnoxious styles that usually only work because his opponent either hasn't ever faced it, or they just don't feel like playing verse somebody willing to turtle for literally 90 minutes and just troll and have fun. Have I already said Avilo never loses a legitimate game, only to "fuckers who cheese and have no skill and all in and doom drop and amove because op"? And he refers to people who criticize him as haters so he can ignore them instead of going for a confrontation. rofl. Nope, don't use Avilo as an example for anything. Somebody that respectless to everybody for no real reason doesn't deserve to be respected either. Your reply completely side-stepped the point. The post was about multiple hotkey control with Terran versus Zerg and you claimed compositions like Raven and Bio are a baseless example - when indeed it is not - Avilo uses it regularly. I've said numerous times control groups and player execution and/or mechanics are set to different standards for different races. The fact you have a player like Stephano only require 4 hotkeys to play the race is pretty shocking if you ask me (even GoOdy uses 5 hotkeys). Furthermore, the fact that Zerg can pre-hotkey eggs and set them as part of the control group with their army (before they hatch), also speaks to reducing the skill ceiling - why can't terran pre-hotkey units in production? The reduced WM damage rewards Zergs that are not as micro oriented. You're right, Zergs used to be punished far more for "clumping" units with the higher level splash, but now it has made it easier for muta/banse to roll through a WM line. And don't even get me started on SH as a unit that requires "skill." This "annoying" style has been created by Blizzard and anyone that wants to go mech has to sit there and build up Raven energy - real fun. And there are some finer points about Avilo that you missed: He does bm's peoples playstyle but not the person; therefore, holding lack of respect for a persons ability in the game, is far different from not respecting the person. For instance, Idra would attack the person instead of the play. Contrary to Idra, who arguably had little respect for anyone, Avilo comments on playstyle, which usually evolves from his opponents cheesy play or comments on balance. I think someone who can beat Nestea on a meta ladder game demands some level of respect in their playstyle. Dude. You're so obviously an Avilo fanboy. Those rare times I enjoy myself laughing at him on his stream he says this kind of rubbish all the time. 4 Hotkeys for Zerg can still mean 3 hotkeys for army, 1 for hatches and the queens can be controlled via screen locations, a way a lot of Zergs inject. Avilo Bms people regularly. Every game, mostly. BMing a style for being retarded and skillless etcetera is exactly the same as BMing the person executing said style, by the way. Especially for a hypocrite that uses his own made up strategy of which the succes rate is the highest only because nobody plays that stupid. IdrA actually did respect good players, just not the scrubs. He had oither problems. Also, he was succesful. But I'm not going for a Avilo vs Idra debate. Nestea isn't the pro he once was, and the fact you need to draw off one game against a player who has never experienced a certain style before is... well, it kinda speaks for itself. Avilo made up his own play style? Nobody plays TvZ mech? I think you need to watch more Sc2 - GoOdy, Strelok, HTOMario, Dayshi. And I really can't believe you are defending <=4 hotkey play from top Pro's - it's not like I put my Rax, CC, Starport, Factory all on one hotkey. As for Avilo, he has never told someone to "get cancer and die" or "David Kim should get raped by a tire iron." I can't say the same for Idra, so defending someone that spews such comments says a lot about the kind of people you support.
Yes he did. That BioRaven style is something only he does, that MechRaven turtle, he and goody are the only ones that play it that way, turret PDD tank into 90 minute game. HTOMario retired and used more mines, Strelok plays way more aggressive with hellbat tank, Dayshi hardly does this vs Z unless he's dead.
What's the problem with using 4 hotkeys in total? As I explained, that is 1 for production and 3 for army, for Zerg having 1 on production is sufficient if you use camera locations. Are you going to whine about the different races having different production? Sidenote, a good number of players have Rax/Fact/SP on 1 key.
And well, as for the last part, I'm sorry I offended your little idol, but the truth is, Avilo is a really nasty bitch in almost every game, insults constantly. You don't need to wish somebody dead to bm. The fact I explain the behaviour IdrA isn't the same as me approving of how he acted, but at least he was good for this community, Avilo is just a really bad example and a sad troll. Stop putting words in my mouth if you disagree and can't win the argument.
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tvp is pretty diverse if you want it to be, you can do all sorts of stuff if you are willing to open your mind. you don't have to copy pro builds to win games, but it will make you a better player faster at the cost of some ladder points.
HOTS has way more things you can do than in WoL, its definitely and improvement.
On May 02 2014 06:01 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 05:56 MattMannion wrote:
just focus on you, there's no need to worry about those things in my opinion. just do you/play your game. sure the game can feel one sided, but sometimes the most frustrating games were just even matches. hell i can't change the way everyone feels about it, but i figured i'd chime in since the complaining is always so fierce when im on a stream or reading these forums :/. This has little to do with playing the game, it's more about watching it really. Well, maybe it matters a bit for guys like TheDwf, as he is at least trying to get to WCS challenger league etc. I've been watching this game for a couple of years, it had it's high and lows and I'd say things a looking rather grim right now.
 im sorry you feel that way, maybe its time to move on? go play csgo for a bit, or BW both are quite fun and may break the cycle for you. sometimes you just need to come back to something with fresh eyes.
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On May 02 2014 05:36 MstrJinbo wrote:If memory serves me. I think IdrA only respected 3 or 4 non-zergs as a "good" players. 2 Korean Terrans and rain or something like that.
I don't know, but I'm 100% sure he looked up to a good number of koreans. IdrA just got badly affected by frustration in the heat of battle.
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idras BM is cool while avilos BM is not.
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On May 02 2014 06:01 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 05:56 MattMannion wrote:
just focus on you, there's no need to worry about those things in my opinion. just do you/play your game. sure the game can feel one sided, but sometimes the most frustrating games were just even matches. hell i can't change the way everyone feels about it, but i figured i'd chime in since the complaining is always so fierce when im on a stream or reading these forums :/. This has little to do with playing the game, it's more about watching it really. Well, maybe it matters a bit for guys like TheDwf, as he is at least trying to get to WCS challenger league etc. I've been watching this game for a couple of years, it had it's high and lows and I'd say things a looking rather grim right now.
It's not nearly as grim as Broodlord Infestor times, as there's still 3 matchups and while Terran representation is low, they aren't extinct. And the quality of ZvP and PvP is considerably higher.
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On May 02 2014 06:05 cheekymonkey wrote:
idras BM is cool while avilos BM is not.
I didn't say that.
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On May 02 2014 06:06 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 06:01 scypio wrote:On May 02 2014 05:56 MattMannion wrote:
just focus on you, there's no need to worry about those things in my opinion. just do you/play your game. sure the game can feel one sided, but sometimes the most frustrating games were just even matches. hell i can't change the way everyone feels about it, but i figured i'd chime in since the complaining is always so fierce when im on a stream or reading these forums :/. This has little to do with playing the game, it's more about watching it really. Well, maybe it matters a bit for guys like TheDwf, as he is at least trying to get to WCS challenger league etc. I've been watching this game for a couple of years, it had it's high and lows and I'd say things a looking rather grim right now. It's not nearly as grim as Broodlord Infestor times, as there's still 3 matchups and while Terran representation is low, they aren't extinct. And the quality of ZvP and PvP is considerably higher.
Yeah, I agree. I've seen worse, also - I've seen better
Moreover, I think this Avilo discussion is rather pointless as he did nothing. Did he manage to get into ro8 of a meaningful tournament? I'm following SC2 pretty closely and I can't recall anything.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 02 2014 03:31 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 03:02 washikie wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 02 2014 02:54 Franscar wrote:
if this goes through I can imagine 1/1 Zergling openings becoming obsolete. having 6-8 hellbats in your push is incredibly powerful, along with rallying hellions to your attack and then transforming. TvZ could use changes to mutas or tanks, but this is a terrible idea. no it isnt, back when hellbats were good it was possible to do thes kind of pushes yet rairly would you see terran kill zerg with a 6 hellbat push. It will however force zerg into a greater commitment to groundbased gas units which is something the mu needs because it will delay mutas and then if t continues to push it will force z to make more banes and less mutas so that z has to at least fight for the ability to make 30+ mutas and contain t on 3-4 bases. right now z gets mutas out so fast that drop play on a lot of maps prity much ends by the 11 minute mark, and once a zerg has mutas unless they are forced to fight with them they will never lose them, provided they have good control. This is a bit of a logical fallacy from the zerg's point of view. You can't have your mutas in position to stop the drops AND harass at the same time. Yeah, it might be scary to load up dropships with mutas on the map, but if you get a drop in while mutas are away from home, that can really sting. I always thought z was overpowered in tvz slightly. That's why I switched to z. But upgrade cost, I think that's stupid thing to change. Give Terran a little help in late game. The removal of servo upgrade might be just the thing.
Ok, I suppose its an exaggeration. I guess its more accurate to say that any drop past 12 minutes is a one way trip suicide mission. you can still drop and deal damage but this is mostly to force the muta cloud or ground army out of position. You don't see drops really do alot of damage to a zerg with mutas+creep+overlords and that drop will die shortly after its seen. Its also a significant risk because if you get spotted its as good as throwing away 8 marines + a medivac. I think on the pro level that's why you mostly see drops to gain a positional advantage past the 11 minute mark but rarely do they do efficient amounts of direct damage to the zerg, unless zerg is obligated to ignore them.
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On May 02 2014 05:59 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 05:17 Existor wrote:On May 02 2014 05:12 NLWiNtER wrote:
Do both, I don't mind as a protoss, but please Delete SH! That unit gonna kill the game eventually. So boring to watch an paly against!! SH must be redesigned, not deleted. Make him more close-range (remove enduring locust), buff locusts, so make Swarm Hosts more close-range (like tempest). Right now Swarm Hosts are semi-22 range, like old Tempests were I thought about making the locust footprint bigger somehow and reducing their speed. That'd make the more resilient to splash but way less mobile and have way less DPS/Area. That might encourage spreading them out more.
Nah, Existor is actually right if we aim for Swarm Hosts to be good and fun units.
You have to change them to be closer ranged units with very high dps but being at risk of being sniped. Then you will constantly trade, your army of Roaches/Hydras/Swarm Hosts/whatever for enemy army. There will be high risk of losing Swarm Hosts that costs a lot, but reward will also be very high if you are good at controlling them.
Right now, Swarm Hosts are no-risk-high-reward units. You just camp with them on creep, with ton of Spines, Spores, Corruptors, Vipers, Queens, Infestors and you send Locusts across the half of the map.
That is why I love to see players that use Swarm Hosts offensively, because you can clearly see the difference between players that are not comfortable with using them, and those that are actually good with Swarm Hosts, because when used offensively they are one of the most demanding and micro intensive units that Zerg has(unless you are already in such huge advantage that you can just rally Locusts and forget about Swarm Hosts altogether). Problem is that not so many players use them offensively anymore because they see their weakness in that regard, multi-prong attacks, drops etc, and they just keep playing turtling style with them.
I would probably reduce Locust duration to 10 seconds, and leave their cooldown on 15-20 seconds, but buff their dps and movement speed. Instead of Enduring Locusts, I would put upgrade that improves Swarm Host speed and reduces the burrow time by 1 second.
They really need to be those aggressive burrow-spawn-unburrow-retreat units instead of burrow-and-forget kind.
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I fully agree with that! I just mentioned an idea I had :DOn May 02 2014 06:15 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 06:06 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 02 2014 06:01 scypio wrote:On May 02 2014 05:56 MattMannion wrote:
just focus on you, there's no need to worry about those things in my opinion. just do you/play your game. sure the game can feel one sided, but sometimes the most frustrating games were just even matches. hell i can't change the way everyone feels about it, but i figured i'd chime in since the complaining is always so fierce when im on a stream or reading these forums :/. This has little to do with playing the game, it's more about watching it really. Well, maybe it matters a bit for guys like TheDwf, as he is at least trying to get to WCS challenger league etc. I've been watching this game for a couple of years, it had it's high and lows and I'd say things a looking rather grim right now. It's not nearly as grim as Broodlord Infestor times, as there's still 3 matchups and while Terran representation is low, they aren't extinct. And the quality of ZvP and PvP is considerably higher. Yeah, I agree. I've seen worse, also - I've seen better Moreover, I think this Avilo discussion is rather pointless as he did nothing. Did he manage to get into ro8 of a meaningful tournament? I'm following SC2 pretty closely and I can't recall anything.
Nope. He never did anything relevant.
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Yeah I know, but it is just that your idea isn't fixing the real problem. 
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EPT
