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On May 02 2014 00:41 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 00:33 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 02 2014 00:26 SirPinky wrote:On May 02 2014 00:01 Big J wrote:On May 01 2014 23:54 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 01 2014 23:47 Big J wrote:On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote:
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.
Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]
--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans
--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)
on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps
EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.
not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.
so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense. You are completely clueless. Typically you are not the kind of guy to make such posts... yup, but I'm getting annoyed that this kind of stuff does not get warnings here. It's just a massive whine post based on made up "facts" like Terrans using ghosts to counter infestors or using ravens with their bio. Not to mention what happens when you 1a banelings and mutalisks into a player that has mines set up and is using Thors and Marauders. Everything just blows up on the wrong stuff, takes massive splash hits and the marines stim forward and kill the 5remaining mutalisks and zerglings. It's such a disgusting way to dennounce a third of the playerbase, not to mention so many progamers. Not to mention that it completely misses the mark on what the actual problems in ZvT are, which is Terran not being able to get the needed economy in the lategame and being stuck on a max of 4bases once the Zerg player gets enough mutas. I guess you don't watch Avilo stream. He uses Ravens with Bio all the time and uses 6+ hotkeys. I don't see how that is a "made up" fact. Avilo is indeed the epitome of an excellent player with great mechanics. Also, he plays obnoxious styles that usually only work because his opponent either hasn't ever faced it, or they just don't feel like playing verse somebody willing to turtle for literally 90 minutes and just troll and have fun. Have I already said Avilo never loses a legitimate game, only to "fuckers who cheese and have no skill and all in and doom drop and amove because op"? And he refers to people who criticize him as haters so he can ignore them instead of going for a confrontation. rofl. Nope, don't use Avilo as an example for anything. Somebody that respectless to everybody for no real reason doesn't deserve to be respected either. I am reading these comments and I am like "did he really just use Avilo as an example of professional level Terran player?" ROFL indeed. :D Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 00:01 Big J wrote:On May 01 2014 23:54 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 01 2014 23:47 Big J wrote:On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote:
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.
Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]
--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans
--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)
on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps
EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.
not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.
so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense. You are completely clueless. Typically you are not the kind of guy to make such posts... yup, but I'm getting annoyed that this kind of stuff does not get warnings here. It's just a massive whine post based on made up "facts" like Terrans using ghosts to counter infestors or using ravens with their bio. Not to mention what happens when you 1a banelings and mutalisks into a player that has mines set up and is using Thors and Marauders. Everything just blows up on the wrong stuff, takes massive splash hits and the marines stim forward and kill the 5remaining mutalisks and zerglings. It's such a disgusting way to dennounce a third of the playerbase, not to mention so many progamers. Not to mention that it completely misses the mark on what the actual problems in ZvT are, which is Terran not being able to get the needed economy in the lategame and being stuck on a max of 4bases once the Zerg player gets enough mutas. Spot on.
Agreed.
On May 02 2014 00:47 Caas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 00:39 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 02 2014 00:38 TheDwf wrote:On May 02 2014 00:36 timchen1017 wrote:On May 02 2014 00:09 TheDwf wrote:On May 02 2014 00:05 timchen1017 wrote:On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote:
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.
Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]
--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans
--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)
on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps
EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.
not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.
so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense. Actually, will it be a good idea to ask BZ to implement one extra kind of movement such that units will automatically try not to clump together (probably in a not too smart way so that good players can further micro)? One step further will be to enable kiting automatically. Frankly speaking kiting is just pretty standard in professional play anyway. This is probably the exact buff terran needs in TvZ mid to late game, as well as TvP late game. More automation is really not what SC2 needs. Well, it's not about more automation but instead I think is to put the micro needed for each race to be at more similar levels. You don't want to see good terran players getting wrist injuries every now and then! The best way for that is to provide strong AoE to bio play so the Zerg and Protoss armies have to be more careful in their approach. #2014BuffSiegeTank the man lasted 4games in starbow channel til he got banned
Me? I never go to Starbow channel, tried it a few times and decided I didn't like it.
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I don't understand why people think hellions turning into hellbats is particularly cool.
I don't have a major problem with it but it's surprising to see so many approval votes for it... just seems... a little weird to be perfectly honest (the concept in general.)
Still think tier 3 moving sieged tanks is the answer. I'm sticking to this one lol.
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On May 02 2014 03:42 Vasoline73 wrote:
I don't understand why people think hellions turning into hellbats is particularly cool.
I don't have a major problem with it but it's surprising to see so many approval votes for it... just seems... a little weird to be perfectly honest (the concept in general.)
Still think tier 3 moving sieged tanks is the answer. I'm sticking to this one lol.
Moving Siege Tanks goes straight against what we should get.
It makes them like Collosi.
Higher damage is what they need. Lower the attack speed, increase the damage so you will actually have a OH FUCK moment when you walk into Siege Lines, and not be like, rofl, there he is, amove! Lower attack speed higher damage is actually not too bad for Marine based armies. As for Zergling/Baneling, I want them to die in the secondary splash radius with +3 attack, preferably, so MLB is on a serious timer to transition as well.
Use overkill and low attack speed to make the Siege Tank an unique and feared unit :D
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Siege tanks definitely needs an attack buff at +3. Right now swarmhosts are too easily thwarting even enormous mech armies. Zerg should be more hard pressed to withstand a maxed mech push, with vipers and such.. more micro than just mindless rally.
also swarmhosts are so god damn boring to watch that it's becoming ridiculous. Does not create epic games at all.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On May 02 2014 04:27 cheekymonkey wrote:
Siege tanks definitely needs an attack buff at +3. Right now swarmhosts are too easily thwarting even enormous mech armies. Zerg should be more hard pressed to withstand a maxed mech push, with vipers and such.. more micro than just mindless rally.
also swarmhosts are so god damn boring to watch that it's becoming ridiculous. Does not create epic games at all.
What a joke? 5-10 siege tanks can hold tons of locusts, you know that?
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On May 02 2014 04:33 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 04:27 cheekymonkey wrote:
Siege tanks definitely needs an attack buff at +3. Right now swarmhosts are too easily thwarting even enormous mech armies. Zerg should be more hard pressed to withstand a maxed mech push, with vipers and such.. more micro than just mindless rally.
also swarmhosts are so god damn boring to watch that it's becoming ridiculous. Does not create epic games at all. What a joke? 5-10 siege tanks can hold tons of locusts, you know that?
whats "tons"?
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On May 02 2014 04:34 cheekymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 04:33 Existor wrote:On May 02 2014 04:27 cheekymonkey wrote:
Siege tanks definitely needs an attack buff at +3. Right now swarmhosts are too easily thwarting even enormous mech armies. Zerg should be more hard pressed to withstand a maxed mech push, with vipers and such.. more micro than just mindless rally.
also swarmhosts are so god damn boring to watch that it's becoming ridiculous. Does not create epic games at all. What a joke? 5-10 siege tanks can hold tons of locusts, you know that? whats "tons"?
5 !
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point is, it's not just about defending swarm hosts, it's about being able to push forward with some sort of mobility. You see terran edging their way across the maps only get get all their expansions harassed or killed because they need their entire maxed army to deal with swarmhosts.
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On May 02 2014 04:33 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 04:27 cheekymonkey wrote:
Siege tanks definitely needs an attack buff at +3. Right now swarmhosts are too easily thwarting even enormous mech armies. Zerg should be more hard pressed to withstand a maxed mech push, with vipers and such.. more micro than just mindless rally.
also swarmhosts are so god damn boring to watch that it's becoming ridiculous. Does not create epic games at all. What a joke? 5-10 siege tanks can hold tons of locusts, you know that?
It's a bit sad Tanks are only used to hold Locusts and some Roaches busts in TvZ.
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On May 02 2014 04:51 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 04:33 Existor wrote:On May 02 2014 04:27 cheekymonkey wrote:
Siege tanks definitely needs an attack buff at +3. Right now swarmhosts are too easily thwarting even enormous mech armies. Zerg should be more hard pressed to withstand a maxed mech push, with vipers and such.. more micro than just mindless rally.
also swarmhosts are so god damn boring to watch that it's becoming ridiculous. Does not create epic games at all. What a joke? 5-10 siege tanks can hold tons of locusts, you know that? It's a bit sad Tanks are only used to hold Locusts and some Roaches busts in TvZ.
That's why they need more damage, less attack speed :-)
KABBBBBBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMM
It's a fucking Siege Tank, not a large assault rifle on a car...
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On May 02 2014 03:10 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 02:45 scypio wrote:On May 02 2014 02:34 TheDwf wrote:On May 02 2014 02:30 scypio wrote:great change that will make absolutely no difference in 95% of games whatsoever  Fairly sure TvT and TvZ represent more than 5% of the games played. TvT balance is not all that crucial... and for TvZ - hmm... I wonder how many T players have the APM to spare while fighting LBM muta balls to do even more micro. One thing that may be helpful - T keeps his 6/8 initial hellions and hits a timing transforming them into hellbats. If it works... then T will get nerfed again. It's not? Hellion openings are already very common in TvT and mech really doesn't seem very weak in midgame (unlike in WOL). So any earlygame midgame buff to mech could have a significant effect. If this goes through, I am definitely gonna use mech as my standard play. TvZ - Already pointed out previously that I think it creates a totally unncesary buff to terran early game. If you buff terran early game by x%, then the effect it will have in the midgame (balancewise) will be much larger than x% due to the snowball effect. So assuming David Kim is aware that TvZ midgame perhaps is favored of zerg by roughly 10%, then making a change that buffs terran by 10% in the early game (or around 10-11 minute mark) is suddenly gonna make the matchup very terran favored in the midgame. I think he should just reduce cost to 50/50 for this upgrade instead of making it free.
OK, sorry, I found out the hellbat madness all too funny to make it stop so I'd happily see it happen once again.
The TvZ - yeah, that's a buff, it opens timings etc. But - just as I said - a timing-base game is something rather disappointing. Blizzard already fixed TvP by letting terran have 0 timings, no point in having one in TvZ too.
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On May 02 2014 05:03 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 03:10 Hider wrote:On May 02 2014 02:45 scypio wrote:On May 02 2014 02:34 TheDwf wrote:On May 02 2014 02:30 scypio wrote:great change that will make absolutely no difference in 95% of games whatsoever Fairly sure TvT and TvZ represent more than 5% of the games played. TvT balance is not all that crucial... and for TvZ - hmm... I wonder how many T players have the APM to spare while fighting LBM muta balls to do even more micro. One thing that may be helpful - T keeps his 6/8 initial hellions and hits a timing transforming them into hellbats. If it works... then T will get nerfed again. It's not? Hellion openings are already very common in TvT and mech really doesn't seem very weak in midgame (unlike in WOL). So any earlygame midgame buff to mech could have a significant effect. If this goes through, I am definitely gonna use mech as my standard play. TvZ - Already pointed out previously that I think it creates a totally unncesary buff to terran early game. If you buff terran early game by x%, then the effect it will have in the midgame (balancewise) will be much larger than x% due to the snowball effect. So assuming David Kim is aware that TvZ midgame perhaps is favored of zerg by roughly 10%, then making a change that buffs terran by 10% in the early game (or around 10-11 minute mark) is suddenly gonna make the matchup very terran favored in the midgame. I think he should just reduce cost to 50/50 for this upgrade instead of making it free. OK, sorry, I found out the hellbat madness all too funny to make it stop so I'd happily see it happen once again. The TvZ - yeah, that's a buff, it opens timings etc. But - just as I said - a timing-base game is something rather disappointing. Blizzard already fixed TvP by letting terran have 0 timings, no point in having one in TvZ too.
Dude, don't be so negative. This change can open up a ton of different builds we know nothing about yet!
Also, Hellbat TvT was not funny - at all. Get's kinda lame to play rock paper scissors games for 10 minutes every TvT.
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Do both, I don't mind as a protoss, but please Delete SH! That unit gonna kill the game eventually. So boring to watch an paly against!!
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On May 02 2014 04:39 cheekymonkey wrote:
point is, it's not just about defending swarm hosts, it's about being able to push forward with some sort of mobility. You see terran edging their way across the maps only get get all their expansions harassed or killed because they need their entire maxed army to deal with swarmhosts.
Thats why Terrans have biggest amount of AOE weapons of all races, and half of these AOE weapons are semi-free. So don't try to argue about free units, when you have:
- widow mines
- seeker missiles
- hellbats
- cruiser yamatos
- siege tanks
- anti-air thor splash
Remember that 15 Siege tanks can hold 30 Swarm Hosts. Not including vipers, vikings, widow mine shots, seekers, broodlords, etc
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On May 02 2014 00:33 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 00:26 SirPinky wrote:On May 02 2014 00:01 Big J wrote:On May 01 2014 23:54 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 01 2014 23:47 Big J wrote:On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote:
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.
Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]
--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans
--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)
on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps
EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.
not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.
so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense. You are completely clueless. Typically you are not the kind of guy to make such posts... yup, but I'm getting annoyed that this kind of stuff does not get warnings here. It's just a massive whine post based on made up "facts" like Terrans using ghosts to counter infestors or using ravens with their bio. Not to mention what happens when you 1a banelings and mutalisks into a player that has mines set up and is using Thors and Marauders. Everything just blows up on the wrong stuff, takes massive splash hits and the marines stim forward and kill the 5remaining mutalisks and zerglings. It's such a disgusting way to dennounce a third of the playerbase, not to mention so many progamers. Not to mention that it completely misses the mark on what the actual problems in ZvT are, which is Terran not being able to get the needed economy in the lategame and being stuck on a max of 4bases once the Zerg player gets enough mutas. I guess you don't watch Avilo stream. He uses Ravens with Bio all the time and uses 6+ hotkeys. I don't see how that is a "made up" fact. Avilo is indeed the epitome of an excellent player with great mechanics. Also, he plays obnoxious styles that usually only work because his opponent either hasn't ever faced it, or they just don't feel like playing verse somebody willing to turtle for literally 90 minutes and just troll and have fun. Have I already said Avilo never loses a legitimate game, only to "fuckers who cheese and have no skill and all in and doom drop and amove because op"? And he refers to people who criticize him as haters so he can ignore them instead of going for a confrontation. rofl. Nope, don't use Avilo as an example for anything. Somebody that respectless to everybody for no real reason doesn't deserve to be respected either.
Your reply completely side-stepped the point. The post was about multiple hotkey control with Terran versus Zerg and you claimed compositions like Raven and Bio are a baseless example - when indeed it is not - Avilo uses it regularly. I've said numerous times control groups and player execution and/or mechanics are set to different standards for different races. The fact you have a player like Stephano only require 4 hotkeys to play the race is pretty shocking if you ask me (even GoOdy uses 5 hotkeys). Furthermore, the fact that Zerg can pre-hotkey eggs and set them as part of the control group with their army (before they hatch), also speaks to reducing the skill ceiling - why can't terran pre-hotkey units in production? The reduced WM damage rewards Zergs that are not as micro oriented. You're right, Zergs used to be punished far more for "clumping" units with the higher level splash, but now it has made it easier for muta/banse to roll through a WM line. And don't even get me started on SH as a unit that requires "skill." This "annoying" style has been created by Blizzard and anyone that wants to go mech has to sit there and build up Raven energy - real fun.
And there are some finer points about Avilo that you missed: He does bm's peoples playstyle but not the person; therefore, holding lack of respect for a persons ability in the game, is far different from not respecting the person. For instance, Idra would attack the person instead of the play. Contrary to Idra, who arguably had little respect for anyone, Avilo comments on playstyle, which usually evolves from his opponents cheesy play or comments on balance. I think someone who can beat Nestea on a meta ladder game demands some level of respect in their playstyle.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On May 02 2014 05:12 NLWiNtER wrote:
Do both, I don't mind as a protoss, but please Delete SH! That unit gonna kill the game eventually. So boring to watch an paly against!!
SH must be redesigned, not deleted. Make him more close-range (remove enduring locust), buff locusts, so make Swarm Hosts more close-range (like tempest). Right now Swarm Hosts are semi-22 range, like old Tempests were
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On May 02 2014 05:05 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 05:03 scypio wrote:On May 02 2014 03:10 Hider wrote:On May 02 2014 02:45 scypio wrote:On May 02 2014 02:34 TheDwf wrote:On May 02 2014 02:30 scypio wrote:great change that will make absolutely no difference in 95% of games whatsoever Fairly sure TvT and TvZ represent more than 5% of the games played. TvT balance is not all that crucial... and for TvZ - hmm... I wonder how many T players have the APM to spare while fighting LBM muta balls to do even more micro. One thing that may be helpful - T keeps his 6/8 initial hellions and hits a timing transforming them into hellbats. If it works... then T will get nerfed again. It's not? Hellion openings are already very common in TvT and mech really doesn't seem very weak in midgame (unlike in WOL). So any earlygame midgame buff to mech could have a significant effect. If this goes through, I am definitely gonna use mech as my standard play. TvZ - Already pointed out previously that I think it creates a totally unncesary buff to terran early game. If you buff terran early game by x%, then the effect it will have in the midgame (balancewise) will be much larger than x% due to the snowball effect. So assuming David Kim is aware that TvZ midgame perhaps is favored of zerg by roughly 10%, then making a change that buffs terran by 10% in the early game (or around 10-11 minute mark) is suddenly gonna make the matchup very terran favored in the midgame. I think he should just reduce cost to 50/50 for this upgrade instead of making it free. OK, sorry, I found out the hellbat madness all too funny to make it stop so I'd happily see it happen once again. The TvZ - yeah, that's a buff, it opens timings etc. But - just as I said - a timing-base game is something rather disappointing. Blizzard already fixed TvP by letting terran have 0 timings, no point in having one in TvZ too. Dude, don't be so negative. This change can open up a ton of different builds we know nothing about yet! Also, Hellbat TvT was not funny - at all. Get's kinda lame to play rock paper scissors games for 10 minutes every TvT.
I remember a discussion regarding TvP, where one dude said "Hey, you are not supposed to attack before 10 minute mark!". That's the right highlight of the "correct" TvX opening, with ideally only one valid option per MU. Things are looking pretty good right now:
- open reaper-expand in TvP and go for a poke at 10 minutes (just saw Kas met by 11 stalkers, 6 sentries and MSC off 3 base at this time - Frost, lol).
- open reaper-hellion-banshee in TvZ and get chased away by a bunch of queens.
Everything else (like potential 11-minute 6-hellbat biotank timing) will be called unstoppable and nerfed into the ground.
Yeah, once in a blue moon something gimmicky will work (2rax on habitation station?), still this will make no difference.
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On May 02 2014 05:15 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 04:39 cheekymonkey wrote:
point is, it's not just about defending swarm hosts, it's about being able to push forward with some sort of mobility. You see terran edging their way across the maps only get get all their expansions harassed or killed because they need their entire maxed army to deal with swarmhosts. Thats why Terrans have biggest amount of AOE weapons of all races, and half of these AOE weapons are semi-free. So don't try to argue about free units, when you have: - widow mines - seeker missiles - hellbats - cruiser yamatos - siege tanks - anti-air thor splash Remember that 15 Siege tanks can hold 30 Swarm Hosts. Not including vipers, vikings, widow mine shots, seekers, broodlords, etc
Mines friendly fire and do laughable splash vs not Zealots/clumped banelings,
HSM comes off a 100/200/60 unit requiring a 200/125 production building and fires once per 2 and a half minutes, hardly free,
Hellbats deal hardly any damage in larger fights, mostly soak damage,
Yamato isn't splash,
Siege Tanks are rubbish vs non zerg all ins/tvt, everybody knows that,
Anti-air Thor only vs Mass Mutalisk.
The problem is Siege Tanks not being able to move forward. Not that they can't hold them.On May 02 2014 05:16 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 00:33 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 02 2014 00:26 SirPinky wrote:On May 02 2014 00:01 Big J wrote:On May 01 2014 23:54 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 01 2014 23:47 Big J wrote:On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote:
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.
Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]
--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans
--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)
on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps
EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.
not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.
so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense. You are completely clueless. Typically you are not the kind of guy to make such posts... yup, but I'm getting annoyed that this kind of stuff does not get warnings here. It's just a massive whine post based on made up "facts" like Terrans using ghosts to counter infestors or using ravens with their bio. Not to mention what happens when you 1a banelings and mutalisks into a player that has mines set up and is using Thors and Marauders. Everything just blows up on the wrong stuff, takes massive splash hits and the marines stim forward and kill the 5remaining mutalisks and zerglings. It's such a disgusting way to dennounce a third of the playerbase, not to mention so many progamers. Not to mention that it completely misses the mark on what the actual problems in ZvT are, which is Terran not being able to get the needed economy in the lategame and being stuck on a max of 4bases once the Zerg player gets enough mutas. I guess you don't watch Avilo stream. He uses Ravens with Bio all the time and uses 6+ hotkeys. I don't see how that is a "made up" fact. Avilo is indeed the epitome of an excellent player with great mechanics. Also, he plays obnoxious styles that usually only work because his opponent either hasn't ever faced it, or they just don't feel like playing verse somebody willing to turtle for literally 90 minutes and just troll and have fun. Have I already said Avilo never loses a legitimate game, only to "fuckers who cheese and have no skill and all in and doom drop and amove because op"? And he refers to people who criticize him as haters so he can ignore them instead of going for a confrontation. rofl. Nope, don't use Avilo as an example for anything. Somebody that respectless to everybody for no real reason doesn't deserve to be respected either. Your reply completely side-stepped the point. The post was about multiple hotkey control with Terran versus Zerg and you claimed compositions like Raven and Bio are a baseless example - when indeed it is not - Avilo uses it regularly. I've said numerous times control groups and player execution and/or mechanics are set to different standards for different races. The fact you have a player like Stephano only require 4 hotkeys to play the race is pretty shocking if you ask me (even GoOdy uses 5 hotkeys). Furthermore, the fact that Zerg can pre-hotkey eggs and set them as part of the control group with their army (before they hatch), also speaks to reducing the skill ceiling - why can't terran pre-hotkey units in production? The reduced WM damage rewards Zergs that are not as micro oriented. You're right, Zergs used to be punished far more for "clumping" units with the higher level splash, but now it has made it easier for muta/banse to roll through a WM line. And don't even get me started on SH as a unit that requires "skill." This "annoying" style has been created by Blizzard and anyone that wants to go mech has to sit there and build up Raven energy - real fun. And there are some finer points about Avilo that you missed: He does bm's peoples playstyle but not the person; therefore, holding lack of respect for a persons ability in the game, is far different from not respecting the person. For instance, Idra would attack the person instead of the play. Contrary to Idra, who arguably had little respect for anyone, Avilo comments on playstyle, which usually evolves from his opponents cheesy play or comments on balance. I think someone who can beat Nestea on a meta ladder game demands some level of respect in their playstyle.
Dude. You're so obviously an Avilo fanboy. Those rare times I enjoy myself laughing at him on his stream he says this kind of rubbish all the time.
4 Hotkeys for Zerg can still mean 3 hotkeys for army, 1 for hatches and the queens can be controlled via screen locations, a way a lot of Zergs inject.
Avilo Bms people regularly. Every game, mostly. BMing a style for being retarded and skillless etcetera is exactly the same as BMing the person executing said style, by the way. Especially for a hypocrite that uses his own made up strategy of which the succes rate is the highest only because nobody plays that stupid. IdrA actually did respect good players, just not the scrubs. He had oither problems. Also, he was succesful. But I'm not going for a Avilo vs Idra debate. Nestea isn't the pro he once was, and the fact you need to draw off one game against a player who has never experienced a certain style before is... well, it kinda speaks for itself.
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do you guys really need to start a fight about everything? i find tvp really hard to win, so i practice it with a partner and try to find faults instead of qq. maybe everyone needs to work together and solve problems instead of fixing units that really aren't the root of the issue. one thing everyone needs to realize is, the player beat you, not the race.
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On May 02 2014 05:31 MattMannion wrote:
do you guys really need to start a fight about everything? i find tvp really hard to win, so i practice it with a partner and try to find faults instead of qq. maybe everyone needs to work together and solve problems instead of fixing units that really aren't the root of the issue. one thing everyone needs to realize is, the player beat you, not the race.
If you play the game and you aren't in GSL code S or WCS Premier AM / EU then clearly there is room for improvement, no matter which race you play.
If you are watching the game and feel that it's a bit stale / dull / too predictable and oftentimes one-sided at top level then improving from silver to gold will not help.
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EPT
