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On May 01 2014 23:18 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote:
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.
Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]
--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans
--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)
on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps
EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.
not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.
so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense. I still love how Stephano only uses 4 Hotkeys. Why should he use more?? He doesn't need to! And, I even said this in WoL, I have no clue how pre-hotkeying larva should automatically roll into Zergs total army composition hotkey when they hatch. No other race can do this - P and T have to reselct all units coming out of their gates/rax/factories etc. This small, but significant, feature just adds to the mass 1a effect on Zerg meta.
Technically we pre hotkey eggs, not larva, in our 1 Ctrl group 
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On May 01 2014 23:18 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote:
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.
Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]
--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans
--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)
on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps
EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.
not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.
so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense. I still love how Stephano only uses 4 Hotkeys. Why should he use more?? He doesn't need to! And, I even said this in WoL, I have no clue how pre-hotkeying larva should automatically roll into Zergs total army composition hotkey when they hatch. No other race can do this - P and T have to reselct all units coming out of their gates/rax/factories etc. This small, but significant, feature just adds to the mass 1a effect on Zerg meta.
P can just hotkey while it is warping in, so that leaves only T 
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or keep bio in TvT with 35(65to armored) to we actually can fight against a Colossi storm zealot ball? and add shield dmg so a tank does more than 35 to an archon
without ruining ZvT
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On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote:
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.
Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]
--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans
--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)
on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps
EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.
not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.
so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense.
You are completely clueless.
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On May 01 2014 23:47 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote:
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.
Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]
--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans
--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)
on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps
EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.
not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.
so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense. You are completely clueless.
Typically you are not the kind of guy to make such posts...
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On May 01 2014 23:54 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2014 23:47 Big J wrote:On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote:
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.
Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]
--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans
--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)
on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps
EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.
not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.
so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense. You are completely clueless. Typically you are not the kind of guy to make such posts...
yup, but I'm getting annoyed that this kind of stuff does not get warnings here. It's just a massive whine post based on made up "facts" like Terrans using ghosts to counter infestors or using ravens with their bio.
Not to mention what happens when you 1a banelings and mutalisks into a player that has mines set up and is using Thors and Marauders. Everything just blows up on the wrong stuff, takes massive splash hits and the marines stim forward and kill the 5remaining mutalisks and zerglings. It's such a disgusting way to dennounce a third of the playerbase, not to mention so many progamers.
Not to mention that it completely misses the mark on what the actual problems in ZvT are, which is Terran not being able to get the needed economy in the lategame and being stuck on a max of 4bases once the Zerg player gets enough mutas.
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On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote:
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.
Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]
--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans
--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)
on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps
EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.
not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.
so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense.
Actually, will it be a good idea to ask BZ to implement one extra kind of movement such that units will automatically try not to clump together (probably in a not too smart way so that good players can further micro)? One step further will be to enable kiting automatically. Frankly speaking kiting is just pretty standard in professional play anyway. This is probably the exact buff terran needs in TvZ mid to late game, as well as TvP late game.
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On May 02 2014 00:05 timchen1017 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote:
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.
Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]
--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans
--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)
on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps
EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.
not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.
so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense. Actually, will it be a good idea to ask BZ to implement one extra kind of movement such that units will automatically try not to clump together (probably in a not too smart way so that good players can further micro)? One step further will be to enable kiting automatically. Frankly speaking kiting is just pretty standard in professional play anyway. This is probably the exact buff terran needs in TvZ mid to late game, as well as TvP late game.
More automation is really not what SC2 needs.
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On May 02 2014 00:01 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2014 23:54 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 01 2014 23:47 Big J wrote:On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote:
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.
Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]
--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans
--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)
on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps
EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.
not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.
so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense. You are completely clueless. Typically you are not the kind of guy to make such posts... yup, but I'm getting annoyed that this kind of stuff does not get warnings here. It's just a massive whine post based on made up "facts" like Terrans using ghosts to counter infestors or using ravens with their bio. Not to mention what happens when you 1a banelings and mutalisks into a player that has mines set up and is using Thors and Marauders. Everything just blows up on the wrong stuff, takes massive splash hits and the marines stim forward and kill the 5remaining mutalisks and zerglings. It's such a disgusting way to dennounce a third of the playerbase, not to mention so many progamers. Not to mention that it completely misses the mark on what the actual problems in ZvT are, which is Terran not being able to get the needed economy in the lategame and being stuck on a max of 4bases once the Zerg player gets enough mutas.
I guess you don't watch Avilo stream. He uses Ravens with Bio all the time and uses 6+ hotkeys. I don't see how that is a "made up" fact.
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On May 02 2014 00:26 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 00:01 Big J wrote:On May 01 2014 23:54 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 01 2014 23:47 Big J wrote:On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote:
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.
Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]
--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans
--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)
on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps
EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.
not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.
so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense. You are completely clueless. Typically you are not the kind of guy to make such posts... yup, but I'm getting annoyed that this kind of stuff does not get warnings here. It's just a massive whine post based on made up "facts" like Terrans using ghosts to counter infestors or using ravens with their bio. Not to mention what happens when you 1a banelings and mutalisks into a player that has mines set up and is using Thors and Marauders. Everything just blows up on the wrong stuff, takes massive splash hits and the marines stim forward and kill the 5remaining mutalisks and zerglings. It's such a disgusting way to dennounce a third of the playerbase, not to mention so many progamers. Not to mention that it completely misses the mark on what the actual problems in ZvT are, which is Terran not being able to get the needed economy in the lategame and being stuck on a max of 4bases once the Zerg player gets enough mutas. I guess you don't watch Avilo stream. He uses Ravens with Bio all the time and uses 6+ hotkeys. I don't see how that is a "made up" fact. Avilo is indeed the epitome of an excellent player with great mechanics.
Also, he plays obnoxious styles that usually only work because his opponent either hasn't ever faced it, or they just don't feel like playing verse somebody willing to turtle for literally 90 minutes and just troll and have fun.
Have I already said Avilo never loses a legitimate game, only to "fuckers who cheese and have no skill and all in and doom drop and amove because op"?
And he refers to people who criticize him as haters so he can ignore them instead of going for a confrontation. rofl. Nope, don't use Avilo as an example for anything.
Somebody that respectless to everybody for no real reason doesn't deserve to be respected either.
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On May 02 2014 00:26 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 00:01 Big J wrote:On May 01 2014 23:54 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 01 2014 23:47 Big J wrote:On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote:
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.
Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]
--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans
--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)
on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps
EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.
not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.
so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense. You are completely clueless. Typically you are not the kind of guy to make such posts... yup, but I'm getting annoyed that this kind of stuff does not get warnings here. It's just a massive whine post based on made up "facts" like Terrans using ghosts to counter infestors or using ravens with their bio. Not to mention what happens when you 1a banelings and mutalisks into a player that has mines set up and is using Thors and Marauders. Everything just blows up on the wrong stuff, takes massive splash hits and the marines stim forward and kill the 5remaining mutalisks and zerglings. It's such a disgusting way to dennounce a third of the playerbase, not to mention so many progamers. Not to mention that it completely misses the mark on what the actual problems in ZvT are, which is Terran not being able to get the needed economy in the lategame and being stuck on a max of 4bases once the Zerg player gets enough mutas. I guess you don't watch Avilo stream. He uses Ravens with Bio all the time and uses 6+ hotkeys. I don't see how that is a "made up" fact.
Just like apm, the amount of hotkeys you use to control your army isn't particularly relevant. More doesn't always mean better control.
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On May 02 2014 00:09 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 00:05 timchen1017 wrote:On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote:
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.
Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]
--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans
--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)
on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps
EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.
not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.
so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense. Actually, will it be a good idea to ask BZ to implement one extra kind of movement such that units will automatically try not to clump together (probably in a not too smart way so that good players can further micro)? One step further will be to enable kiting automatically. Frankly speaking kiting is just pretty standard in professional play anyway. This is probably the exact buff terran needs in TvZ mid to late game, as well as TvP late game. More automation is really not what SC2 needs.
Well, it's not about more automation but instead I think is to put the micro needed for each race to be at more similar levels. You don't want to see good terran players getting wrist injuries every now and then!
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On May 02 2014 00:36 timchen1017 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 00:09 TheDwf wrote:On May 02 2014 00:05 timchen1017 wrote:On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote:
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.
Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]
--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans
--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)
on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps
EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.
not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.
so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense. Actually, will it be a good idea to ask BZ to implement one extra kind of movement such that units will automatically try not to clump together (probably in a not too smart way so that good players can further micro)? One step further will be to enable kiting automatically. Frankly speaking kiting is just pretty standard in professional play anyway. This is probably the exact buff terran needs in TvZ mid to late game, as well as TvP late game. More automation is really not what SC2 needs. Well, it's not about more automation but instead I think is to put the micro needed for each race to be at more similar levels. You don't want to see good terran players getting wrist injuries every now and then!
The best way for that is to provide strong AoE to bio play so the Zerg and Protoss armies have to be more careful in their approach.
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On May 02 2014 00:36 timchen1017 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 00:09 TheDwf wrote:On May 02 2014 00:05 timchen1017 wrote:On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote:
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.
Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]
--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans
--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)
on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps
EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.
not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.
so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense. Actually, will it be a good idea to ask BZ to implement one extra kind of movement such that units will automatically try not to clump together (probably in a not too smart way so that good players can further micro)? One step further will be to enable kiting automatically. Frankly speaking kiting is just pretty standard in professional play anyway. This is probably the exact buff terran needs in TvZ mid to late game, as well as TvP late game. More automation is really not what SC2 needs. Well, it's not about more automation but instead I think is to put the micro needed for each race to be at more similar levels. You don't want to see good terran players getting wrist injuries every now and then!
I'm pretty sure most people on TL would rather see Protoss and Zerg have to micro a ton more than have Terran control less.
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On May 02 2014 00:38 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 00:36 timchen1017 wrote:On May 02 2014 00:09 TheDwf wrote:On May 02 2014 00:05 timchen1017 wrote:On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote:
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.
Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]
--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans
--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)
on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps
EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.
not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.
so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense. Actually, will it be a good idea to ask BZ to implement one extra kind of movement such that units will automatically try not to clump together (probably in a not too smart way so that good players can further micro)? One step further will be to enable kiting automatically. Frankly speaking kiting is just pretty standard in professional play anyway. This is probably the exact buff terran needs in TvZ mid to late game, as well as TvP late game. More automation is really not what SC2 needs. Well, it's not about more automation but instead I think is to put the micro needed for each race to be at more similar levels. You don't want to see good terran players getting wrist injuries every now and then! The best way for that is to provide strong AoE to bio play so the Zerg and Protoss armies have to be more careful in their approach.
#2014BuffSiegeTank
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On May 02 2014 00:33 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 00:26 SirPinky wrote:On May 02 2014 00:01 Big J wrote:On May 01 2014 23:54 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 01 2014 23:47 Big J wrote:On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote:
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.
Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]
--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans
--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)
on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps
EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.
not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.
so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense. You are completely clueless. Typically you are not the kind of guy to make such posts... yup, but I'm getting annoyed that this kind of stuff does not get warnings here. It's just a massive whine post based on made up "facts" like Terrans using ghosts to counter infestors or using ravens with their bio. Not to mention what happens when you 1a banelings and mutalisks into a player that has mines set up and is using Thors and Marauders. Everything just blows up on the wrong stuff, takes massive splash hits and the marines stim forward and kill the 5remaining mutalisks and zerglings. It's such a disgusting way to dennounce a third of the playerbase, not to mention so many progamers. Not to mention that it completely misses the mark on what the actual problems in ZvT are, which is Terran not being able to get the needed economy in the lategame and being stuck on a max of 4bases once the Zerg player gets enough mutas. I guess you don't watch Avilo stream. He uses Ravens with Bio all the time and uses 6+ hotkeys. I don't see how that is a "made up" fact. Avilo is indeed the epitome of an excellent player with great mechanics. Also, he plays obnoxious styles that usually only work because his opponent either hasn't ever faced it, or they just don't feel like playing verse somebody willing to turtle for literally 90 minutes and just troll and have fun. Have I already said Avilo never loses a legitimate game, only to "fuckers who cheese and have no skill and all in and doom drop and amove because op"? And he refers to people who criticize him as haters so he can ignore them instead of going for a confrontation. rofl. Nope, don't use Avilo as an example for anything. Somebody that respectless to everybody for no real reason doesn't deserve to be respected either.
I am reading these comments and I am like "did he really just use Avilo as an example of professional level Terran player?"
ROFL indeed. :D
On May 02 2014 00:01 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2014 23:54 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 01 2014 23:47 Big J wrote:On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote:
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.
Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]
--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans
--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)
on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps
EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.
not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.
so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense. You are completely clueless. Typically you are not the kind of guy to make such posts... yup, but I'm getting annoyed that this kind of stuff does not get warnings here. It's just a massive whine post based on made up "facts" like Terrans using ghosts to counter infestors or using ravens with their bio. Not to mention what happens when you 1a banelings and mutalisks into a player that has mines set up and is using Thors and Marauders. Everything just blows up on the wrong stuff, takes massive splash hits and the marines stim forward and kill the 5remaining mutalisks and zerglings. It's such a disgusting way to dennounce a third of the playerbase, not to mention so many progamers. Not to mention that it completely misses the mark on what the actual problems in ZvT are, which is Terran not being able to get the needed economy in the lategame and being stuck on a max of 4bases once the Zerg player gets enough mutas.
Spot on.
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On May 02 2014 00:39 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 00:38 TheDwf wrote:On May 02 2014 00:36 timchen1017 wrote:On May 02 2014 00:09 TheDwf wrote:On May 02 2014 00:05 timchen1017 wrote:On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote:
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.
Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]
--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans
--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)
on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps
EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.
not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.
so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense. Actually, will it be a good idea to ask BZ to implement one extra kind of movement such that units will automatically try not to clump together (probably in a not too smart way so that good players can further micro)? One step further will be to enable kiting automatically. Frankly speaking kiting is just pretty standard in professional play anyway. This is probably the exact buff terran needs in TvZ mid to late game, as well as TvP late game. More automation is really not what SC2 needs. Well, it's not about more automation but instead I think is to put the micro needed for each race to be at more similar levels. You don't want to see good terran players getting wrist injuries every now and then! The best way for that is to provide strong AoE to bio play so the Zerg and Protoss armies have to be more careful in their approach. #2014BuffSiegeTank
the man lasted 4games in starbow channel til he got banned
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On May 02 2014 00:38 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 00:36 timchen1017 wrote:On May 02 2014 00:09 TheDwf wrote:On May 02 2014 00:05 timchen1017 wrote:On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote:
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.
Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]
--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans
--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)
on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps
EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.
not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.
so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense. Actually, will it be a good idea to ask BZ to implement one extra kind of movement such that units will automatically try not to clump together (probably in a not too smart way so that good players can further micro)? One step further will be to enable kiting automatically. Frankly speaking kiting is just pretty standard in professional play anyway. This is probably the exact buff terran needs in TvZ mid to late game, as well as TvP late game. More automation is really not what SC2 needs. Well, it's not about more automation but instead I think is to put the micro needed for each race to be at more similar levels. You don't want to see good terran players getting wrist injuries every now and then! Just like apm, the amount of hotkeys you use to control your army isn't particularly relevant. More doesn't always mean better control.
Though i do find it heart breaking when i see even top pros using one or two controls. This shouldn't work in SC.
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On May 02 2014 00:48 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 00:38 TheDwf wrote:On May 02 2014 00:36 timchen1017 wrote:On May 02 2014 00:09 TheDwf wrote:On May 02 2014 00:05 timchen1017 wrote:On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote:
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.
Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]
--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans
--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)
on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps
EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.
not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.
so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense. Actually, will it be a good idea to ask BZ to implement one extra kind of movement such that units will automatically try not to clump together (probably in a not too smart way so that good players can further micro)? One step further will be to enable kiting automatically. Frankly speaking kiting is just pretty standard in professional play anyway. This is probably the exact buff terran needs in TvZ mid to late game, as well as TvP late game. More automation is really not what SC2 needs. Well, it's not about more automation but instead I think is to put the micro needed for each race to be at more similar levels. You don't want to see good terran players getting wrist injuries every now and then! The best way for that is to provide strong AoE to bio play so the Zerg and Protoss armies have to be more careful in their approach. Though i do find it heart breaking when i see even top pros using one or two controls. This shouldn't work in SC.
There is no time for complex control groups when you can lose 75 supply in 5 seconds. In lategame TvP controlling 3 hotkeys of fragile units is already a nightmare with the short duration of battles.
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On April 30 2014 11:56 Blargh wrote:
As a few others stated before, the MSC is still a totally shitty unit in terms of design and balance. It's pretty much the least skill-requiring unit out there, except for maybe, just maybe, timing recalls for optimization. Nexus cannon and time warp are pretty much the derpiest actions out there. Surely they can come up with something a bit more creative?
Yeah, aside from the Swarmhost, the MSC is the biggest problem with the game. I mean, just consider, what's the different between a bronze level Photon Overcharge and a GM level one? It's a gimmicky ability that requires no micro on the part of the user. SC is all about micro. Micro is what made BW so great. And now we have units like the SH and MSC that deal damage automatically and provide no entertainment from a spectator's perspective.
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EPT
