• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 22:08
CEST 04:08
KST 11:08
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event5Serral wins EWC 202543Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 202510Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580RSL Season 1 - Final Week9
Community News
SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 194Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up6LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments5[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder10EWC 2025 - Replay Pack4
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy Rogue Talks: "Koreans could dominate again" uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread
Tourneys
SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19 LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) WardiTV Mondays RSL Season 2 Qualifier Links and Dates
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 485 Death from Below Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion StarCon Philadelphia ASL Season 20 Ro24 Groups BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams Player “Jedi” cheat on CSL
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues KCM 2025 Season 3 Small VOD Thread 2.0 [ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 2
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Beyond All Reason [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok)
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Gaming After Dark: Poor Slee…
TrAiDoS
[Girl blog} My fema…
artosisisthebest
Sharpening the Filtration…
frozenclaw
ASL S20 English Commentary…
namkraft
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 608 users

Balance Status Update 4/29/14 - Page 26

Forum Index > SC2 General
697 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 24 25 26 27 28 35 Next All
Thezzy
Profile Joined October 2010
Netherlands2117 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-01 09:47:08
May 01 2014 09:46 GMT
#501
On May 01 2014 18:42 SatedSC2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 01 2014 17:57 Frex wrote:
On May 01 2014 17:53 juvenal wrote:
On May 01 2014 17:49 Frex wrote:
On May 01 2014 15:28 scypio wrote:
Terran needs a whining buff. The amount of nerfs they get and how badly they perform clearly points out to the real problem: very poor whining skills.

Alternatively they could build more ravens.


I am sure raven is the answer versus muta/ling/bane and high templars.

raven 10 times the caster high templar can ever be! Takes great effort to split your 10 templars so they don't all die to one HSM (or two?).


What, you just feedback them so they can not HSM.

And yet when you tell people that they should just EMP Templar so that they can't Storm, everyone loses their minds!

=P


EMP can't kill a Templar.
To add insult to injury, the Templar can then just flip the finger to the Ghost and morph into an Archon on the spot.
Playing Terran is like flying down a MULE drop in a marine suit, firing a Gauss Rifle
submarine
Profile Joined March 2012
Germany290 Posts
May 01 2014 09:54 GMT
#502
On May 01 2014 18:40 Thezzy wrote:
That might help the lategame production a bit and provide a bit more compositional flexibility.
A Fusion Core would be late enough not to affect the midgame.
It would be best if you could upgrade existing Tech-Labs and Reactors as well otherwise it wouldn't affect much.
Each Tech Lab could for instance be upgraded for 25/25/15 and Reactors for 50/0/15.


Yeah, totally agree, was editing my post with the same ideas while you were typing :D
Too bad such a drastic change won't happen with a balance patch
One can dream, right :D
SC2Toastie
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
Netherlands5725 Posts
May 01 2014 10:06 GMT
#503
In reased siege tank damage! I've been watchen the WoL MLB v Marine Tank games and there's so much positional and clever play going on we never see anymore because the tanks is a piece of rubbish :-(
Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!
Disciple7seveN
Profile Joined December 2009
France28 Posts
May 01 2014 10:13 GMT
#504
You know things are bad when Blizz busts out the word 'slightly'! lol!
This one is constantly thinking, analyzing, strategizing. He showed no fear, but was curious, studying me in turn.
aZealot
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
New Zealand5447 Posts
May 01 2014 10:41 GMT
#505
On May 01 2014 18:35 Luolis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2014 10:39 aZealot wrote:
Good god, leave the game alone for a few months. The last patch was just over a month ago.

Fucking QQ always gets its way.

Yea its not like toss has dominated for 7 months...


Here, have a hanky.
KT best KT ~ 2014
Chaggi
Profile Joined August 2010
Korea (South)1936 Posts
May 01 2014 11:18 GMT
#506
On May 01 2014 19:41 aZealot wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 01 2014 18:35 Luolis wrote:
On April 30 2014 10:39 aZealot wrote:
Good god, leave the game alone for a few months. The last patch was just over a month ago.

Fucking QQ always gets its way.

Yea its not like toss has dominated for 7 months...


Here, have a hanky.


Is he wrong?
AaronChance
Profile Joined September 2013
29 Posts
May 01 2014 11:21 GMT
#507
Yes. Occasionally zerg dominate, like in recent dreamhack.
matthy
Profile Joined January 2013
66 Posts
May 01 2014 11:32 GMT
#508
On May 01 2014 18:32 maartendq wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 01 2014 18:07 desertfrog817 wrote:
Just give us a level 4 infantry for late game we do good fine in early and mid for terran, its the late game that been a hassle with zerg and protoss doing tech switch

That might just be a little bit too much for Zerg to handle. 3/3 already shreds through muta/ling/baneling if microes correctly, 4/4 would just make a joke out of it, especially with the way the damage output of a ball of marines scales.

I am still convinced that a lot of Terran woes can be solved by just giving the siege tank its original damage back.


Is the siegetank dmg output nerfed? damn that migth explain why they suck so hard now.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 01 2014 11:34 GMT
#509
Glad that aZealot continuing the grand tradition of mocking balance whiners while I'm away.

And I'm all about faster transforming cars. Bring on the buff.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
JDfz
Profile Joined December 2012
United Kingdom50 Posts
May 01 2014 11:43 GMT
#510
Couple of things:

Really surprised that there's nothing here about the SH. From playing random for the last 6 months its still the most striking issue in P v Z (although in winrate terms that MU looks balanced). I would love to see them experiment with changes involving a small cost per locust (with trade-offs such as no more time-life, makes the unit carrier-esque).

in T v Z the main issue is dealing with Zergs that like to Mass 30+ Muta, definitely feels OP when you have that many on the map. I'm not sure what would help here, but it doesn't seem like the xform change would address much, and Terran is usually getting 3/3 faster than Zerg anyway. Still, I welcome the xform change even if it doesn't address the issues, because it encourages more use of the ability.

in T v P the problem for players remains the lack of early options for terran vs the abundance of options for Protoss. These changes won't really have much affect here at all. I would like to see them consider reverting the upgrade costs for Protoss ground, and then explore bringing other Terran units into that wonderful venn-diagram-centre of viability, such as the tank. Improving the tank in the MU would unlock a much greater set of options for Terran, both in terms of timings and compositions. If they can do it for the Widow Mine, they can do it for the tank.
CJGumiho <3
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-01 11:46:37
May 01 2014 11:43 GMT
#511
On May 01 2014 19:41 aZealot wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 01 2014 18:35 Luolis wrote:
On April 30 2014 10:39 aZealot wrote:
Good god, leave the game alone for a few months. The last patch was just over a month ago.

Fucking QQ always gets its way.

Yea its not like toss has dominated for 7 months...


Here, have a hanky.


Would that be the same hanky you used for your own tears earlier?
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
Slydie
Profile Joined August 2013
1920 Posts
May 01 2014 11:50 GMT
#512
Siegetanks suck because of the strong counters P and Z has, it has more dps and no siegemode upgrade since a WoL beta nerf. Mutas, speedlings on creep and chargelots are were already good, but then blinding cloud, immortals, phoenix lift, voidrays, broodlords, viper yank etc. make tanks rubbish.

The last dps buff and combined upgrades already killed pure bio in tvt, so the my dear tank is in a hard to buff as well...
Buff the siegetank
MstrJinbo
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1251 Posts
May 01 2014 12:06 GMT
#513
in T v Z the main issue is dealing with Zergs that like to Mass 30+ Muta, definitely feels OP when you have that many on the map. I'm not sure what would help here, but it doesn't seem like the xform change would address much, and Terran is usually getting 3/3 faster than Zerg anyway. Still, I welcome the xform change even if it doesn't address the issues, because it encourages more use of the ability.


30+ mutalisks don't just appear out of nowhere. It's due to favorable engagements in the midgame that lets Zerg take extra bases and build up their muta flock. Mass muta tvz is every bit a midgame problem. If in a game it feels otherwise, you were probably dead at 16 min but it took you 10 min to realize it. So a looking for a buff to the midgame like the transformation servos removal is very appropriate.
Rollora
Profile Joined February 2012
2450 Posts
May 01 2014 12:19 GMT
#514
On May 01 2014 21:06 MstrJinbo wrote:
Show nested quote +
in T v Z the main issue is dealing with Zergs that like to Mass 30+ Muta, definitely feels OP when you have that many on the map. I'm not sure what would help here, but it doesn't seem like the xform change would address much, and Terran is usually getting 3/3 faster than Zerg anyway. Still, I welcome the xform change even if it doesn't address the issues, because it encourages more use of the ability.


30+ mutalisks don't just appear out of nowhere. It's due to favorable engagements in the midgame that lets Zerg take extra bases and build up their muta flock. Mass muta tvz is every bit a midgame problem. If in a game it feels otherwise, you were probably dead at 16 min but it took you 10 min to realize it. So a looking for a buff to the midgame like the transformation servos removal is very appropriate.

To prevent the 30 Mutalisk flock, you have to constantly engage zerg and force to lose units or at least harass.
If you don't get the zerg to lose mutas he fly's out and regens health, increases number.
You are 100% correct, that it is hard work to get the economy that way and to not lose mutas, but on the other hand the terran has to either make perfect harassement (drops are hard when mutas are out, so is harassement with banshees). What is left is walking parts of the army towards the opponent, which is often, if the moveout scouted, countered before the army gets there, countered on creep. And the longer the zergs eco stays untouched, the game snowballs.

If Zerg has already a number of mutas, lets say 15, he can keep you in your base like forever, so he can freely expand. IF(!) he controls the units right, he won't lose a muta but moreover grow the numbers.

Theorycrafted enough, that is the pessimistic view on zerg out of the terrans vision. But that can be turned around: Terran have their weapons as well, i know.
Butterednuts
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States859 Posts
May 01 2014 13:16 GMT
#515
Blizzard logic.

Terran is really strong because of Hellbats. Let's nerf the Hellbats!
Terran is really weak now because we nerfed Hellbats. Let's try to make mech work.
Mech isn't working and isn't as popular as hoped. Fuck it, have your Hellbats again.
Chameleons Cast No Shadows
MstrJinbo
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1251 Posts
May 01 2014 13:21 GMT
#516
On May 01 2014 22:16 Butterednuts wrote:
Blizzard logic.

Terran is really strong because of Hellbats. Let's nerf the Hellbats!
Terran is really weak now because we nerfed Hellbats. Let's try to make mech work.
Mech isn't working and isn't as popular as hoped. Fuck it, have your Hellbats again.


If you read DKims post in the OP, the reasoning behind the proposed hellbat buff is pretty solid.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
May 01 2014 13:41 GMT
#517
On May 01 2014 21:19 Rollora wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 01 2014 21:06 MstrJinbo wrote:
in T v Z the main issue is dealing with Zergs that like to Mass 30+ Muta, definitely feels OP when you have that many on the map. I'm not sure what would help here, but it doesn't seem like the xform change would address much, and Terran is usually getting 3/3 faster than Zerg anyway. Still, I welcome the xform change even if it doesn't address the issues, because it encourages more use of the ability.


30+ mutalisks don't just appear out of nowhere. It's due to favorable engagements in the midgame that lets Zerg take extra bases and build up their muta flock. Mass muta tvz is every bit a midgame problem. If in a game it feels otherwise, you were probably dead at 16 min but it took you 10 min to realize it. So a looking for a buff to the midgame like the transformation servos removal is very appropriate.

To prevent the 30 Mutalisk flock, you have to constantly engage zerg and force to lose units or at least harass.
If you don't get the zerg to lose mutas he fly's out and regens health, increases number.
You are 100% correct, that it is hard work to get the economy that way and to not lose mutas, but on the other hand the terran has to either make perfect harassement (drops are hard when mutas are out, so is harassement with banshees). What is left is walking parts of the army towards the opponent, which is often, if the moveout scouted, countered before the army gets there, countered on creep. And the longer the zergs eco stays untouched, the game snowballs.

If Zerg has already a number of mutas, lets say 15, he can keep you in your base like forever, so he can freely expand. IF(!) he controls the units right, he won't lose a muta but moreover grow the numbers.

Theorycrafted enough, that is the pessimistic view on zerg out of the terrans vision. But that can be turned around: Terran have their weapons as well, i know.


I don't like the notion of trying to balance the game around "preventing that the opponent can get X mutalisks". The problem is not that Zerg can get 30mutalisks, since mutalisks are a really good unit in that scenario. It's not like the Zerg is making a mistake by stockpiling mutalisks.
Basically you are trying to find a balance sweet spot, which is really hard to do. It's usually going to swing the one or other way once the metagame around it gets figured out. (denying doesn't work well enough, mutalisks eventually still dominate; denying works too well, Zerg doesn't make a real mistake but still just gets worn down)
It would be easier to create diverse scenarios, in which there are better and worse decisions, like, creating a scenario in which it is strategically worse to play mass mutalisks, by directly nerfing them (or buffing their counters).
odem
Profile Joined August 2011
143 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-01 14:09:18
May 01 2014 13:52 GMT
#518
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.

Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]

--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans

--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)

on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps

EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.


not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.

so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense.
scypio
Profile Joined December 2011
Poland2127 Posts
May 01 2014 14:09 GMT
#519
TvZ was getting better just before the WM nerf hit. Top zergs started to learn the micro necessary to play muta-ling-bling against 4M.

Unfortunately WMs were nerfed so it's back to build more ravens
I play random | I like Hots | INnoVation | sOs | Tefel TOP1!
SirPinky
Profile Joined February 2011
United States525 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-01 14:20:59
May 01 2014 14:18 GMT
#520
On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote:
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.

Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]

--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans

--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)

on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps

EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.


not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.

so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense.


I still love how Stephano only uses 4 Hotkeys. Why should he use more?? He doesn't need to! And, I even said this in WoL, I have no clue how pre-hotkeying larva should automatically roll into Zergs total army composition hotkey when they hatch. No other race can do this - P and T have to reselct all units coming out of their gates/rax/factories etc. This small, but significant, feature just adds to the mass 1a effect on Zerg meta.
How much better to get wisdom than gold; to get insight rather than silver!
Prev 1 24 25 26 27 28 35 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 7h 52m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RuFF_SC2 51
StarCraft: Brood War
ggaemo 112
NaDa 105
MaD[AoV]35
Noble 14
Terrorterran 11
Stormgate
Nina224
Dota 2
monkeys_forever769
NeuroSwarm134
LuMiX1
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King72
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor184
Other Games
summit1g12129
tarik_tv9964
gofns5190
JimRising 580
ViBE166
ROOTCatZ24
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1308
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH305
• davetesta31
• Adnapsc2 11
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22070
League of Legends
• Doublelift5302
Other Games
• Scarra965
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
7h 52m
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
12h 52m
BSL
16h 52m
Bonyth vs Hawk
Wardi Open
1d 8h
RotterdaM Event
1d 13h
Replay Cast
1d 21h
WardiTV Summer Champion…
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
PiGosaur Monday
2 days
WardiTV Summer Champion…
3 days
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
4 days
WardiTV Summer Champion…
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
LiuLi Cup
5 days
Online Event
6 days
SC Evo League
6 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

StarCon 2025 Philadelphia LAN
FEL Cracow 2025
CC Div. A S7

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025

Upcoming

ASL Season 20
CSLAN 3
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
CS Asia Championships 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.