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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
On May 01 2014 18:42 SatedSC2 wrote: And yet when you tell people that they should just EMP Templar so that they can't Storm, everyone loses their minds! =P EMP can't kill a Templar. To add insult to injury, the Templar can then just flip the finger to the Ghost and morph into an Archon on the spot. | ||
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submarine
Germany290 Posts
On May 01 2014 18:40 Thezzy wrote: That might help the lategame production a bit and provide a bit more compositional flexibility. A Fusion Core would be late enough not to affect the midgame. It would be best if you could upgrade existing Tech-Labs and Reactors as well otherwise it wouldn't affect much. Each Tech Lab could for instance be upgraded for 25/25/15 and Reactors for 50/0/15. Yeah, totally agree, was editing my post with the same ideas while you were typing :D Too bad such a drastic change won't happen with a balance patch  One can dream, right :D | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
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Disciple7seveN
France28 Posts
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On May 01 2014 18:35 Luolis wrote: Yea its not like toss has dominated for 7 months... Here, have a hanky. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
Is he wrong? | ||
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AaronChance
29 Posts
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matthy
66 Posts
On May 01 2014 18:32 maartendq wrote: That might just be a little bit too much for Zerg to handle. 3/3 already shreds through muta/ling/baneling if microes correctly, 4/4 would just make a joke out of it, especially with the way the damage output of a ball of marines scales. I am still convinced that a lot of Terran woes can be solved by just giving the siege tank its original damage back. Is the siegetank dmg output nerfed? damn that migth explain why they suck so hard now. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
And I'm all about faster transforming cars. Bring on the buff. | ||
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JDfz
United Kingdom50 Posts
Really surprised that there's nothing here about the SH. From playing random for the last 6 months its still the most striking issue in P v Z (although in winrate terms that MU looks balanced). I would love to see them experiment with changes involving a small cost per locust (with trade-offs such as no more time-life, makes the unit carrier-esque). in T v Z the main issue is dealing with Zergs that like to Mass 30+ Muta, definitely feels OP when you have that many on the map. I'm not sure what would help here, but it doesn't seem like the xform change would address much, and Terran is usually getting 3/3 faster than Zerg anyway. Still, I welcome the xform change even if it doesn't address the issues, because it encourages more use of the ability. in T v P the problem for players remains the lack of early options for terran vs the abundance of options for Protoss. These changes won't really have much affect here at all. I would like to see them consider reverting the upgrade costs for Protoss ground, and then explore bringing other Terran units into that wonderful venn-diagram-centre of viability, such as the tank. Improving the tank in the MU would unlock a much greater set of options for Terran, both in terms of timings and compositions. If they can do it for the Widow Mine, they can do it for the tank. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
Would that be the same hanky you used for your own tears earlier? | ||
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Slydie
2007 Posts
The last dps buff and combined upgrades already killed pure bio in tvt, so the my dear tank is in a hard to buff as well... | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
in T v Z the main issue is dealing with Zergs that like to Mass 30+ Muta, definitely feels OP when you have that many on the map. I'm not sure what would help here, but it doesn't seem like the xform change would address much, and Terran is usually getting 3/3 faster than Zerg anyway. Still, I welcome the xform change even if it doesn't address the issues, because it encourages more use of the ability. 30+ mutalisks don't just appear out of nowhere. It's due to favorable engagements in the midgame that lets Zerg take extra bases and build up their muta flock. Mass muta tvz is every bit a midgame problem. If in a game it feels otherwise, you were probably dead at 16 min but it took you 10 min to realize it. So a looking for a buff to the midgame like the transformation servos removal is very appropriate. | ||
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Rollora
2450 Posts
On May 01 2014 21:06 MstrJinbo wrote: 30+ mutalisks don't just appear out of nowhere. It's due to favorable engagements in the midgame that lets Zerg take extra bases and build up their muta flock. Mass muta tvz is every bit a midgame problem. If in a game it feels otherwise, you were probably dead at 16 min but it took you 10 min to realize it. So a looking for a buff to the midgame like the transformation servos removal is very appropriate. To prevent the 30 Mutalisk flock, you have to constantly engage zerg and force to lose units or at least harass. If you don't get the zerg to lose mutas he fly's out and regens health, increases number. You are 100% correct, that it is hard work to get the economy that way and to not lose mutas, but on the other hand the terran has to either make perfect harassement (drops are hard when mutas are out, so is harassement with banshees). What is left is walking parts of the army towards the opponent, which is often, if the moveout scouted, countered before the army gets there, countered on creep. And the longer the zergs eco stays untouched, the game snowballs. If Zerg has already a number of mutas, lets say 15, he can keep you in your base like forever, so he can freely expand. IF(!) he controls the units right, he won't lose a muta but moreover grow the numbers. Theorycrafted enough, that is the pessimistic view on zerg out of the terrans vision. But that can be turned around: Terran have their weapons as well, i know. | ||
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Butterednuts
United States859 Posts
Terran is really strong because of Hellbats. Let's nerf the Hellbats! Terran is really weak now because we nerfed Hellbats. Let's try to make mech work. Mech isn't working and isn't as popular as hoped. Fuck it, have your Hellbats again. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On May 01 2014 22:16 Butterednuts wrote: Blizzard logic. Terran is really strong because of Hellbats. Let's nerf the Hellbats! Terran is really weak now because we nerfed Hellbats. Let's try to make mech work. Mech isn't working and isn't as popular as hoped. Fuck it, have your Hellbats again. If you read DKims post in the OP, the reasoning behind the proposed hellbat buff is pretty solid. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 01 2014 21:19 Rollora wrote: To prevent the 30 Mutalisk flock, you have to constantly engage zerg and force to lose units or at least harass. If you don't get the zerg to lose mutas he fly's out and regens health, increases number. You are 100% correct, that it is hard work to get the economy that way and to not lose mutas, but on the other hand the terran has to either make perfect harassement (drops are hard when mutas are out, so is harassement with banshees). What is left is walking parts of the army towards the opponent, which is often, if the moveout scouted, countered before the army gets there, countered on creep. And the longer the zergs eco stays untouched, the game snowballs. If Zerg has already a number of mutas, lets say 15, he can keep you in your base like forever, so he can freely expand. IF(!) he controls the units right, he won't lose a muta but moreover grow the numbers. Theorycrafted enough, that is the pessimistic view on zerg out of the terrans vision. But that can be turned around: Terran have their weapons as well, i know. I don't like the notion of trying to balance the game around "preventing that the opponent can get X mutalisks". The problem is not that Zerg can get 30mutalisks, since mutalisks are a really good unit in that scenario. It's not like the Zerg is making a mistake by stockpiling mutalisks. Basically you are trying to find a balance sweet spot, which is really hard to do. It's usually going to swing the one or other way once the metagame around it gets figured out. (denying doesn't work well enough, mutalisks eventually still dominate; denying works too well, Zerg doesn't make a real mistake but still just gets worn down) It would be easier to create diverse scenarios, in which there are better and worse decisions, like, creating a scenario in which it is strategically worse to play mass mutalisks, by directly nerfing them (or buffing their counters). | ||
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odem
143 Posts
Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps] --> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans --> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ) on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up. not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control. so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense. | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
Unfortunately WMs were nerfed so it's back to build more ravens  | ||
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SirPinky
United States525 Posts
On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote: Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth. Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps] --> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans --> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ) on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up. not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control. so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense. I still love how Stephano only uses 4 Hotkeys. Why should he use more?? He doesn't need to! And, I even said this in WoL, I have no clue how pre-hotkeying larva should automatically roll into Zergs total army composition hotkey when they hatch. No other race can do this - P and T have to reselct all units coming out of their gates/rax/factories etc. This small, but significant, feature just adds to the mass 1a effect on Zerg meta. | ||
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