EPTBalance Status Update 4/29/14 - Page 24
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
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washikie
United States752 Posts
I do however like the hellbat change, it may let terran add 4-6 hellbats to their 10 minute push which will force zerg to commit to a fair amount of banes at the time they get spire up, this will delay the mutas which usualy zerg produce to clean up this push and therefore let terran continue to push and put pressure on the zerg, and help tilt that first engagement back into t's favor. still I dont think it addresses the bigest problem of Tvz right now which is that once zerg get like 30 mutas T is either forced to take huge losses at thier base/possible denial of thier fourth if they push out, or t has to go on the defensive and zerg gets to take an ez 5th/6th base and get to the late game before t can really abuse their 3-3 timing window. because after the 3-3 timing window the game tends to drift heavily in z's favor if they are up enough on bases to keep up a large bank and the game starts to spiral out of control. On smaller maps this is not as big of an issue because generally bases past 4 for zerg are prity damn hard to hold but on bigger maps this becomes a real problem for Terran. Terran needs to be able to threaten zerg enough that they force mutas to fight in engagements, and in these engagement Terran need to be able to kill off mutas. Widowmines used to serve this roll and as such mutas were balanced but since the widow mine nerf you just dont see zerg losing mutas in fights and this leads to a snowball effect. It resembles how in pre mine nerf tvz Terran would seem to never lose their medvac cloud, since zerg lost mutas in fights. They would eventually have like 17 medvacs and that made it so that zerg was only ever trading with the cheap bio units and not the expensive flying units in the Terran composition and t would therefore be able to snowball their army supply and cost effeceny. As for Tvp i actualy agree with blizzard I think that terran is in a better spot now, but the match is still a little p favored. The new maps however have helped tremendously as blink is a lot worse on them. you even see t sometimes go into a fast factory now because its alot less lickley to get an ato bo loss to blink nowadays. maybe give the mtach some time if t at the top level cuntinue to suffer than look into it agian and possibly consider early game or late game t buffs/ p nerfs. Also as for all the whine about PvZ I just don't understand it. To me that mu seems to be in a really good spot, their are tons of strategies for both sides, both races have valid ways to play the late game, and it offers alot of strategic depth. Sure swarmhosts are a problem but I think Protoss will start to figure them out. maybe they already are as I've seen substantially less swarmhost zvp recently at the pro level, especially in korea where it really matters. Maybe you p and z could enlighten me as to why people complain about a balanced mu? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 01 2014 06:48 ZenithM wrote: B...b...but I thought the best players naturally gravited toward Protoss, due to design? Is that wrong? Plus most of the inspiring and revered bonjwas in Broodwar were Protoss, like SlayerS_Prox'yOracl'er, iloveProtLotV, NaDarkShrine and MaflashipCore, so you know, most people wanted to imitate them? You forgot JangBlink. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
And JulyZealot. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On May 01 2014 06:48 ZenithM wrote: B...b...but I thought the best players naturally gravited toward Protoss, due to design? Is that wrong? Plus most of the inspiring and revered bonjwas in Broodwar were Protoss, like SlayerS_Prox'yOracl'er, iloveProtLotV, NaDarkShrine and MaflashipCore, so you know, most people wanted to imitate them? lols XD | ||
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Rollora
2450 Posts
On April 30 2014 22:20 SatedSC2 wrote: there is a difference between a race that has like 80% of stream time lately (Toss in TvP,PvP,PvZ) and the others underrepresented. Ofc seeing always the same race gets boring over time. And that is why more ppl tune in when terrans play, cause they are cooler to watch for the most, because there is always more action involved (not babysit one hughe army ball until toss has enough... or watch the 100th blink or whatever allin which isn't really an allin.) and also it is more entertaining to see the "fresher" race, which is the one ofc that hasn't been shown that much. And I turned off DreamHack once all the Protoss were out. I can't imagine I was the only one. So what..? | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
and maybe not him --; | ||
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cheekymonkey
France1387 Posts
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Trustworthy-Tony
Tanzania187 Posts
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imrusty269
United States1404 Posts
On May 01 2014 05:48 duckk wrote: Maybe I am not pro, but I have beaten almost every code s Korean on ladder numerous times, granted ladder means little. I've played against happy for years ( since wc3) and while his micro is arguably one of the best in the world, he lacks in other areas. Ravens do not get better with micro... they are more about map awareness and strategy. Perhaps with the widow mine, keep the current damage, but if manually selected it does the old mine damage. Reward the terrans for controlling them rather than having them as slot machines. Also, 2-2 zerg does not deal with 3-3 terran cost effectively. Sorry but the fact that you can beat code S players as Zerg worked against your argument. Guess mines weren't too strong after all. Manually selecting individual mines sound very trollish. It isn't like terran already has to do the most micro even with the old mines. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25748 Posts
On April 30 2014 16:22 Qwerty85 wrote: Pro feedback that is not super biased, like for example this statement from Rain That additional damage against shield was really big. Now Protoss can’t play using a templar build order. Once Terrans realized that, they are now so much more daring. And even without all that, Terran is still too strong. It’s like WoL Brood Lord/Infestor/Corruptor level. I know it's probably a stretch but I kind of get where Rain is coming from in a way. He plays pretty much the least exploitative and most 'straight-up' style of PvT there is so I imagine his experiences in the matchup differ from those of other Protoss players. While he can be criticised for his predictability I do think it raises an interesting point, namely that in the absence of 'Protoss bullshit' to keep your opponent honest, does Protoss have as much scope to play safe, with the hope of outplaying your opponent straight-up? I'd argue that frankly all things being equal it doesn't IF you factor out the BS. Obviously for balance purposes this is irrelevant but I have long, long held the belief that Protoss without the variability is pretty weak, been the case for god knows how long. This is a somewhat drunken post so hope it isn't misconstrued haha | ||
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DomeGetta
480 Posts
On May 01 2014 08:39 Wombat_NI wrote: I know it's probably a stretch but I kind of get where Rain is coming from in a way. He plays pretty much the least exploitative and most 'straight-up' style of PvT there is so I imagine his experiences in the matchup differ from those of other Protoss players. While he can be criticised for his predictability I do think it raises an interesting point, namely that in the absence of 'Protoss bullshit' to keep your opponent honest, does Protoss have as much scope to play safe, with the hope of outplaying your opponent straight-up? I'd argue that frankly all things being equal it doesn't IF you factor out the BS. Obviously for balance purposes this is irrelevant but I have long, long held the belief that Protoss without the variability is pretty weak, been the case for god knows how long. This is a somewhat drunken post so hope it isn't misconstrued haha Ya sorry totally disagree even to the point where I think he was trolling that interview. It's nice that you admit that with the BS it's imbalanced but I'd argue that even without it's borderline. T has to gain a big advantage in the mid-game to make late game compositions work from games I've seen which include most of Taeja's games who I consider one of the best TvP players in the history of sc2. The only thing the mine buff did was provide a counter to one of the unit compositions that toss can go for (mass zealot/templar/archon). Colossus comps deal with mines very effectively unless you keep sniping their observer (which has speed upgrade). I really think any Protoss arguing that the game doesn't move in their favor the longer it goes is very confused - does anyone have a link to TvP winrates in games that go past 20 minutes? I'd venture to say that they are very skewed for Protoss and the same would go for Zerg but you'd probably have to use 25 minutes or so once they reach ultra / infestor tech. I haven't seen the stats so it's a total guess prove me wrong pls ! | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On May 01 2014 10:15 FabledIntegral wrote: I found the upgrade cost reduction notably more impactful when playing Protoss than people gave it credit for and anticipate similar when playing T. VERY frequently with T (this is also partly due to my playstyle), I find myself being able to afford +2 weapons and only have 130 gas and 4 geysers and can't afford +2 armor. I often forget to go back and get +2 armor as well. Will definitely make it more fluid, for me. That's actually a good point. In theory it doesn't change much, but mechanically it will probably make the upgrading more smooth (for less-than-top players, I mean), you have way less chance of not having enough at the point where you try to hit your 2/2 and 3/3. | ||
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kinsky
Germany368 Posts
internet guy 2014 | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On May 01 2014 10:26 ZenithM wrote: That's actually a good point. In theory it doesn't change much, but mechanically it will probably make the upgrading more smooth (for less-than-top players, I mean), you have way less chance of not having enough at the point where you try to hit your 2/2 and 3/3. Also a cheaper upgrade means, that a well planned timing attack is just that much stronger. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On May 01 2014 11:16 GinDo wrote: Also a cheaper upgrade means, that a well planned timing attack is just that much stronger. I don't know about that... 25 minerals is like, less than what you get by stacking workers at the start? It doesn't change the timings that much. Doesn't make it that much faster, doesn't really give you more units. I don't know, I could be wrong but it doesn't seem really game changing from a pure theoretical stand point. | ||
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