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I dont think the SH concept is good tbh. Easy to say after extensive testing throughout HotS and I donz blame anyone for it. But thats just how it is imo. The Sh fails to do what you want from an artillery (kill stuff from long range) and fails to be interesting (it sits there and now you gotta sit here).
Just give us one standard groundbased zerg artillery unit. Not the SH that is completely deniable and thus just a way to keep the opponent busy, not the BL/Guardian stuff that requires you to have airdominance while being unable to beat T1 GtA units without support. Not the energybased fungals that cannot kill walls and defenses. Just something normal that shoots at 9+ range.
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there might be ways to make SH only work offensively and not defensively, then this would solve most of the turtling SH problems
extreme examples of a change to do this would be to make SH lose HP when near your own hatchers/lair/hive
so your SH would only survive and be used far away from your own base, ie only can be used on your opponents side of the map
basically cant use SH for defense anymore
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On May 02 2014 07:04 mikumegurine wrote:
there might be ways to make SH only work offensively and not defensively, then this would solve most of the turtling SH problems
extreme examples of a change to do this would be to make SH lose HP when near your own hatchers/lair/hive
so your SH would only survive and be used far away from your own base, ie only can be used on your opponents side of the map
basically cant use SH for defense anymore
yeah, right.
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On May 02 2014 07:04 mikumegurine wrote:
there might be ways to make SH only work offensively and not defensively, then this would solve most of the turtling SH problems
extreme examples of a change to do this would be to make SH lose HP when near your own hatchers/lair/hive
so your SH would only survive and be used far away from your own base, ie only can be used on your opponents side of the map
basically cant use SH for defense anymore
That's pretty ludicrous. A way of making SH more offensive rather than defensive would be to make both SH's and locusts much faster but with far less HP, longer lifespan and less damage output. Thus making them pretty bad vs mass tank, but open for quick harassment around the map and scouting.
Tank vs SH needs to go, it's very bad design. I think zerg has more interesting options vs mech, including heavy viper usage. Maybe it's not currently as good as SH, or even viable at all for that matter, but that can also be changed. One suggestion is the broodlord which is now gradually losing its role.
Zerg is most entertaining when their goal is harassment & big fast engagements. Not WoL TvT tank vs tank level stalemates.
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Part of the problem is that T players need to be more active about pressing forward with their tanks. I've had so many games where I sit there killing locusts for about 10 minutes when I could have been crawling forward with my tanks if I spared the APM for it.
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On May 02 2014 07:04 mikumegurine wrote:
there might be ways to make SH only work offensively and not defensively, then this would solve most of the turtling SH problems
extreme examples of a change to do this would be to make SH lose HP when near your own hatchers/lair/hive
so your SH would only survive and be used far away from your own base, ie only can be used on your opponents side of the map
basically cant use SH for defense anymore
Yeah but if i want fast, cheap groundbased harassment i have lings/blings and roaches at my disposal. Zerg has no need and probably not even a usage for another unit that is good at dealing damage to unprotected locations.
What zerg needs (instead) is something that can actually tackle an opponent that is going full retard PF/tank/viking turtle to get 20ravens and 15 extra OCs. Or a Protoss that just builds those 20Tempests behind his Collossus/HT bunker. And not in a retarted way like with SHs where the solution to that kind of Zerg offense is to do the turtlestyle that the zerg wanted to tackle originally, because (only) that way you can prevent damage from the Z artillery. And not by actually dealing with the artillery...
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On May 02 2014 07:28 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 07:04 mikumegurine wrote:
there might be ways to make SH only work offensively and not defensively, then this would solve most of the turtling SH problems
extreme examples of a change to do this would be to make SH lose HP when near your own hatchers/lair/hive
so your SH would only survive and be used far away from your own base, ie only can be used on your opponents side of the map
basically cant use SH for defense anymore What zerg needs (instead) is something that can actually tackle an opponent that is going full retard PF/tank/viking turtle to get 20ravens and 15 extra OCs. Or a Protoss that just builds those 20Tempests behind his Collossus/HT bunker.
It could be solved differently than with SH for sure. Blizzard could reconsider Scourge as a unit to deal with mass viking/raven. Sitting tight on SH's doesn't fit Zerg very well.
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On May 02 2014 05:05 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 05:03 scypio wrote:On May 02 2014 03:10 Hider wrote:On May 02 2014 02:45 scypio wrote:On May 02 2014 02:34 TheDwf wrote:On May 02 2014 02:30 scypio wrote:great change that will make absolutely no difference in 95% of games whatsoever  Fairly sure TvT and TvZ represent more than 5% of the games played. TvT balance is not all that crucial... and for TvZ - hmm... I wonder how many T players have the APM to spare while fighting LBM muta balls to do even more micro. One thing that may be helpful - T keeps his 6/8 initial hellions and hits a timing transforming them into hellbats. If it works... then T will get nerfed again. It's not? Hellion openings are already very common in TvT and mech really doesn't seem very weak in midgame (unlike in WOL). So any earlygame midgame buff to mech could have a significant effect. If this goes through, I am definitely gonna use mech as my standard play. TvZ - Already pointed out previously that I think it creates a totally unncesary buff to terran early game. If you buff terran early game by x%, then the effect it will have in the midgame (balancewise) will be much larger than x% due to the snowball effect. So assuming David Kim is aware that TvZ midgame perhaps is favored of zerg by roughly 10%, then making a change that buffs terran by 10% in the early game (or around 10-11 minute mark) is suddenly gonna make the matchup very terran favored in the midgame. I think he should just reduce cost to 50/50 for this upgrade instead of making it free. OK, sorry, I found out the hellbat madness all too funny to make it stop so I'd happily see it happen once again. The TvZ - yeah, that's a buff, it opens timings etc. But - just as I said - a timing-base game is something rather disappointing. Blizzard already fixed TvP by letting terran have 0 timings, no point in having one in TvZ too. Dude, don't be so negative. This change can open up a ton of different builds we know nothing about yet! Also, Hellbat TvT was not funny - at all. Get's kinda lame to play rock paper scissors games for 10 minutes every TvT.
it was the exact opposite of randomness, just raw mechanical skill.
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On May 02 2014 06:04 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 05:36 SirPinky wrote:On May 02 2014 05:25 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 02 2014 05:15 Existor wrote:On May 02 2014 04:39 cheekymonkey wrote:
point is, it's not just about defending swarm hosts, it's about being able to push forward with some sort of mobility. You see terran edging their way across the maps only get get all their expansions harassed or killed because they need their entire maxed army to deal with swarmhosts. Thats why Terrans have biggest amount of AOE weapons of all races, and half of these AOE weapons are semi-free. So don't try to argue about free units, when you have: - widow mines - seeker missiles - hellbats - cruiser yamatos - siege tanks - anti-air thor splash Remember that 15 Siege tanks can hold 30 Swarm Hosts. Not including vipers, vikings, widow mine shots, seekers, broodlords, etc Mines friendly fire and do laughable splash vs not Zealots/clumped banelings, HSM comes off a 100/200/60 unit requiring a 200/125 production building and fires once per 2 and a half minutes, hardly free, Hellbats deal hardly any damage in larger fights, mostly soak damage, Yamato isn't splash, Siege Tanks are rubbish vs non zerg all ins/tvt, everybody knows that, Anti-air Thor only vs Mass Mutalisk. The problem is Siege Tanks not being able to move forward. Not that they can't hold them. On May 02 2014 05:16 SirPinky wrote:On May 02 2014 00:33 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 02 2014 00:26 SirPinky wrote:On May 02 2014 00:01 Big J wrote:On May 01 2014 23:54 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 01 2014 23:47 Big J wrote:On May 01 2014 22:52 odem wrote:
Zerg can win lategame ZvT by 1-A deathball (muta,ling,bling,ultralisk,infestor) while only needing 1 control group to easily still use fungal growth.
Terran needs like how many control groups to effectively counter that shit? bio (stim), mines (burrow) vs bling clumps, raven (pdd/hsm) vs muta clumps, ghost (emp) vs infestor... [alternatively replace mines with tanks (siege) vs bling clumps]
--> thats like 4 control groups and absolutely impossible to micro even for the top world korean terrans
--> so u have to choose less caster units and will be in a disadvantage (OR U NEED 2 PLAYERS TO MICRO A TERRAN ARMY IN TVZ)
on the other hand mech just too fucking slow and doesnt really work on big maps
EXACTLY THIS is the reason there has never been successful terran foreigners (compared to zerg ez mode foreigners all over the place) + that is the reason why ZvT will always be fucked up.
not to mention in ZvZ or PvP a foreigner can always beat a korean but in TvT the foreigners get completely annihilated by koreans. guess what, terran takes actual skill to control.
so u either need to ensure terran has a way to effectively (!) counter muta clumps without needing 3 players to micro their army (by nerfig muta or buffing terran counters like dude above just said). or just ensure zerg actually needs to micro their own fucking units (f.e. bling friendly fire) to make it equal hard to play - not even speaking about protoss 1click early game defense. You are completely clueless. Typically you are not the kind of guy to make such posts... yup, but I'm getting annoyed that this kind of stuff does not get warnings here. It's just a massive whine post based on made up "facts" like Terrans using ghosts to counter infestors or using ravens with their bio. Not to mention what happens when you 1a banelings and mutalisks into a player that has mines set up and is using Thors and Marauders. Everything just blows up on the wrong stuff, takes massive splash hits and the marines stim forward and kill the 5remaining mutalisks and zerglings. It's such a disgusting way to dennounce a third of the playerbase, not to mention so many progamers. Not to mention that it completely misses the mark on what the actual problems in ZvT are, which is Terran not being able to get the needed economy in the lategame and being stuck on a max of 4bases once the Zerg player gets enough mutas. I guess you don't watch Avilo stream. He uses Ravens with Bio all the time and uses 6+ hotkeys. I don't see how that is a "made up" fact. Avilo is indeed the epitome of an excellent player with great mechanics. Also, he plays obnoxious styles that usually only work because his opponent either hasn't ever faced it, or they just don't feel like playing verse somebody willing to turtle for literally 90 minutes and just troll and have fun. Have I already said Avilo never loses a legitimate game, only to "fuckers who cheese and have no skill and all in and doom drop and amove because op"? And he refers to people who criticize him as haters so he can ignore them instead of going for a confrontation. rofl. Nope, don't use Avilo as an example for anything. Somebody that respectless to everybody for no real reason doesn't deserve to be respected either. Your reply completely side-stepped the point. The post was about multiple hotkey control with Terran versus Zerg and you claimed compositions like Raven and Bio are a baseless example - when indeed it is not - Avilo uses it regularly. I've said numerous times control groups and player execution and/or mechanics are set to different standards for different races. The fact you have a player like Stephano only require 4 hotkeys to play the race is pretty shocking if you ask me (even GoOdy uses 5 hotkeys). Furthermore, the fact that Zerg can pre-hotkey eggs and set them as part of the control group with their army (before they hatch), also speaks to reducing the skill ceiling - why can't terran pre-hotkey units in production? The reduced WM damage rewards Zergs that are not as micro oriented. You're right, Zergs used to be punished far more for "clumping" units with the higher level splash, but now it has made it easier for muta/banse to roll through a WM line. And don't even get me started on SH as a unit that requires "skill." This "annoying" style has been created by Blizzard and anyone that wants to go mech has to sit there and build up Raven energy - real fun. And there are some finer points about Avilo that you missed: He does bm's peoples playstyle but not the person; therefore, holding lack of respect for a persons ability in the game, is far different from not respecting the person. For instance, Idra would attack the person instead of the play. Contrary to Idra, who arguably had little respect for anyone, Avilo comments on playstyle, which usually evolves from his opponents cheesy play or comments on balance. I think someone who can beat Nestea on a meta ladder game demands some level of respect in their playstyle. Dude. You're so obviously an Avilo fanboy. Those rare times I enjoy myself laughing at him on his stream he says this kind of rubbish all the time. 4 Hotkeys for Zerg can still mean 3 hotkeys for army, 1 for hatches and the queens can be controlled via screen locations, a way a lot of Zergs inject. Avilo Bms people regularly. Every game, mostly. BMing a style for being retarded and skillless etcetera is exactly the same as BMing the person executing said style, by the way. Especially for a hypocrite that uses his own made up strategy of which the succes rate is the highest only because nobody plays that stupid. IdrA actually did respect good players, just not the scrubs. He had oither problems. Also, he was succesful. But I'm not going for a Avilo vs Idra debate. Nestea isn't the pro he once was, and the fact you need to draw off one game against a player who has never experienced a certain style before is... well, it kinda speaks for itself. Avilo made up his own play style? Nobody plays TvZ mech? I think you need to watch more Sc2 - GoOdy, Strelok, HTOMario, Dayshi. And I really can't believe you are defending <=4 hotkey play from top Pro's - it's not like I put my Rax, CC, Starport, Factory all on one hotkey. As for Avilo, he has never told someone to "get cancer and die" or "David Kim should get raped by a tire iron." I can't say the same for Idra, so defending someone that spews such comments says a lot about the kind of people you support. Yes he did. That BioRaven style is something only he does, that MechRaven turtle, he and goody are the only ones that play it that way, turret PDD tank into 90 minute game. HTOMario retired and used more mines, Strelok plays way more aggressive with hellbat tank, Dayshi hardly does this vs Z unless he's dead. What's the problem with using 4 hotkeys in total? As I explained, that is 1 for production and 3 for army, for Zerg having 1 on production is sufficient if you use camera locations. Are you going to whine about the different races having different production? Sidenote, a good number of players have Rax/Fact/SP on 1 key. And well, as for the last part, I'm sorry I offended your little idol, but the truth is, Avilo is a really nasty bitch in almost every game, insults constantly. You don't need to wish somebody dead to bm. The fact I explain the behaviour IdrA isn't the same as me approving of how he acted, but at least he was good for this community, Avilo is just a really bad example and a sad troll. Stop putting words in my mouth if you disagree and can't win the argument.
Lol, so much spite. Did you have some sort of history with Avilo? Did he BM you on stream or something? The only thing I see in this thread is that you show extreme hate toward Avilo (and his fans) without any provocation. That's pretty BM, considering you are relatively anonymous. You also defend Idra who BM just as much if not more, who more than once told the entire community to go fuck themselves.
I'd argue Avilo is good for community. He is a good player who put up a consistent stream with good viewer numbers, manage to be somewhat entertaining. I've watched his metagame vods and he doesn't look like a super bias troll who wants to nerf the shit out of protoss random forum posters would like you to believe.
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People don't like Avilo because he never takes accountability for his losses. He accuses people of stream cheating, being cheesy or anything else that can remove the blame him. He whines endlessly about balance and will even talk a little trash when he is beat by Korean pros.
Avilo has fans and that is great, but he is still a whiner and a cry baby and thats not how you become a champion.
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On May 02 2014 07:28 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 07:04 mikumegurine wrote:
there might be ways to make SH only work offensively and not defensively, then this would solve most of the turtling SH problems
extreme examples of a change to do this would be to make SH lose HP when near your own hatchers/lair/hive
so your SH would only survive and be used far away from your own base, ie only can be used on your opponents side of the map
basically cant use SH for defense anymore Yeah but if i want fast, cheap groundbased harassment i have lings/blings and roaches at my disposal. Zerg has no need and probably not even a usage for another unit that is good at dealing damage to unprotected locations. What zerg needs (instead) is something that can actually tackle an opponent that is going full retard PF/tank/viking turtle to get 20ravens and 15 extra OCs. Or a Protoss that just builds those 20Tempests behind his Collossus/HT bunker. And not in a retarted way like with SHs where the solution to that kind of Zerg offense is to do the turtlestyle that the zerg wanted to tackle originally, because (only) that way you can prevent damage from the Z artillery. And not by actually dealing with the artillery...
Sorry but you don't need a buff for that.. there's a reason you almost never see it in professional play.
Take the whole map, spread creep and wait.. it's not fun I'll admit but Z definitely doesn't need a buff lol.
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On May 02 2014 07:57 Plansix wrote:
People don't like Avilo because he never takes accountability for his losses. He accuses people of stream cheating, being cheesy or anything else that can remove the blame him. He whines endlessly about balance and will even talk a little trash when he is beat by Korean pros.
Avilo has fans and that is great, but he is still a whiner and a cry baby and thats not how you become a champion.
Please stop railroading the balance thread talking about Avilo this is not the forum.
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What I'm wondering is if this is a good idea at all. If a Terran player micros correctly and saves their hellions to be included in their 11-12 min push 1 or 2 things can happen.
1) The push will be very strong and Terran players will start abusing the timing against zergs.
2) The push will fail and Terran will transition into 4M which was what they were playing before.
The patch addresses a timing, not the other 75% of the mid and late game. Terrans will stop making hellbats after that initial push fails or win right there. If they want to help Terran they should revert the WM nerf, because that is what the other 90% of the game is played on. By fixing the WM they will fix a bigger picture of the game. Who says that a Zerg having to micro against WM shots is a bad thing. As it is now they usually just make so many lings and LOL as they move onto a Terran army ignoring the WM shots.
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On May 02 2014 07:35 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 05:05 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 02 2014 05:03 scypio wrote:On May 02 2014 03:10 Hider wrote:On May 02 2014 02:45 scypio wrote:On May 02 2014 02:34 TheDwf wrote:On May 02 2014 02:30 scypio wrote:great change that will make absolutely no difference in 95% of games whatsoever Fairly sure TvT and TvZ represent more than 5% of the games played. TvT balance is not all that crucial... and for TvZ - hmm... I wonder how many T players have the APM to spare while fighting LBM muta balls to do even more micro. One thing that may be helpful - T keeps his 6/8 initial hellions and hits a timing transforming them into hellbats. If it works... then T will get nerfed again. It's not? Hellion openings are already very common in TvT and mech really doesn't seem very weak in midgame (unlike in WOL). So any earlygame midgame buff to mech could have a significant effect. If this goes through, I am definitely gonna use mech as my standard play. TvZ - Already pointed out previously that I think it creates a totally unncesary buff to terran early game. If you buff terran early game by x%, then the effect it will have in the midgame (balancewise) will be much larger than x% due to the snowball effect. So assuming David Kim is aware that TvZ midgame perhaps is favored of zerg by roughly 10%, then making a change that buffs terran by 10% in the early game (or around 10-11 minute mark) is suddenly gonna make the matchup very terran favored in the midgame. I think he should just reduce cost to 50/50 for this upgrade instead of making it free. OK, sorry, I found out the hellbat madness all too funny to make it stop so I'd happily see it happen once again. The TvZ - yeah, that's a buff, it opens timings etc. But - just as I said - a timing-base game is something rather disappointing. Blizzard already fixed TvP by letting terran have 0 timings, no point in having one in TvZ too. Dude, don't be so negative. This change can open up a ton of different builds we know nothing about yet! Also, Hellbat TvT was not funny - at all. Get's kinda lame to play rock paper scissors games for 10 minutes every TvT. it was the exact opposite of randomness, just raw mechanical skill.
Still not entertaining.On May 02 2014 07:48 imrusty269 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 06:04 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 02 2014 05:36 SirPinky wrote:On May 02 2014 05:25 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 02 2014 05:15 Existor wrote:On May 02 2014 04:39 cheekymonkey wrote:
point is, it's not just about defending swarm hosts, it's about being able to push forward with some sort of mobility. You see terran edging their way across the maps only get get all their expansions harassed or killed because they need their entire maxed army to deal with swarmhosts. Thats why Terrans have biggest amount of AOE weapons of all races, and half of these AOE weapons are semi-free. So don't try to argue about free units, when you have: - widow mines - seeker missiles - hellbats - cruiser yamatos - siege tanks - anti-air thor splash Remember that 15 Siege tanks can hold 30 Swarm Hosts. Not including vipers, vikings, widow mine shots, seekers, broodlords, etc Mines friendly fire and do laughable splash vs not Zealots/clumped banelings, HSM comes off a 100/200/60 unit requiring a 200/125 production building and fires once per 2 and a half minutes, hardly free, Hellbats deal hardly any damage in larger fights, mostly soak damage, Yamato isn't splash, Siege Tanks are rubbish vs non zerg all ins/tvt, everybody knows that, Anti-air Thor only vs Mass Mutalisk. The problem is Siege Tanks not being able to move forward. Not that they can't hold them. On May 02 2014 05:16 SirPinky wrote:On May 02 2014 00:33 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 02 2014 00:26 SirPinky wrote:On May 02 2014 00:01 Big J wrote:On May 01 2014 23:54 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 01 2014 23:47 Big J wrote:
[quote]
You are completely clueless. Typically you are not the kind of guy to make such posts... yup, but I'm getting annoyed that this kind of stuff does not get warnings here. It's just a massive whine post based on made up "facts" like Terrans using ghosts to counter infestors or using ravens with their bio. Not to mention what happens when you 1a banelings and mutalisks into a player that has mines set up and is using Thors and Marauders. Everything just blows up on the wrong stuff, takes massive splash hits and the marines stim forward and kill the 5remaining mutalisks and zerglings. It's such a disgusting way to dennounce a third of the playerbase, not to mention so many progamers. Not to mention that it completely misses the mark on what the actual problems in ZvT are, which is Terran not being able to get the needed economy in the lategame and being stuck on a max of 4bases once the Zerg player gets enough mutas. I guess you don't watch Avilo stream. He uses Ravens with Bio all the time and uses 6+ hotkeys. I don't see how that is a "made up" fact. Avilo is indeed the epitome of an excellent player with great mechanics. Also, he plays obnoxious styles that usually only work because his opponent either hasn't ever faced it, or they just don't feel like playing verse somebody willing to turtle for literally 90 minutes and just troll and have fun. Have I already said Avilo never loses a legitimate game, only to "fuckers who cheese and have no skill and all in and doom drop and amove because op"? And he refers to people who criticize him as haters so he can ignore them instead of going for a confrontation. rofl. Nope, don't use Avilo as an example for anything. Somebody that respectless to everybody for no real reason doesn't deserve to be respected either. Your reply completely side-stepped the point. The post was about multiple hotkey control with Terran versus Zerg and you claimed compositions like Raven and Bio are a baseless example - when indeed it is not - Avilo uses it regularly. I've said numerous times control groups and player execution and/or mechanics are set to different standards for different races. The fact you have a player like Stephano only require 4 hotkeys to play the race is pretty shocking if you ask me (even GoOdy uses 5 hotkeys). Furthermore, the fact that Zerg can pre-hotkey eggs and set them as part of the control group with their army (before they hatch), also speaks to reducing the skill ceiling - why can't terran pre-hotkey units in production? The reduced WM damage rewards Zergs that are not as micro oriented. You're right, Zergs used to be punished far more for "clumping" units with the higher level splash, but now it has made it easier for muta/banse to roll through a WM line. And don't even get me started on SH as a unit that requires "skill." This "annoying" style has been created by Blizzard and anyone that wants to go mech has to sit there and build up Raven energy - real fun. And there are some finer points about Avilo that you missed: He does bm's peoples playstyle but not the person; therefore, holding lack of respect for a persons ability in the game, is far different from not respecting the person. For instance, Idra would attack the person instead of the play. Contrary to Idra, who arguably had little respect for anyone, Avilo comments on playstyle, which usually evolves from his opponents cheesy play or comments on balance. I think someone who can beat Nestea on a meta ladder game demands some level of respect in their playstyle. Dude. You're so obviously an Avilo fanboy. Those rare times I enjoy myself laughing at him on his stream he says this kind of rubbish all the time. 4 Hotkeys for Zerg can still mean 3 hotkeys for army, 1 for hatches and the queens can be controlled via screen locations, a way a lot of Zergs inject. Avilo Bms people regularly. Every game, mostly. BMing a style for being retarded and skillless etcetera is exactly the same as BMing the person executing said style, by the way. Especially for a hypocrite that uses his own made up strategy of which the succes rate is the highest only because nobody plays that stupid. IdrA actually did respect good players, just not the scrubs. He had oither problems. Also, he was succesful. But I'm not going for a Avilo vs Idra debate. Nestea isn't the pro he once was, and the fact you need to draw off one game against a player who has never experienced a certain style before is... well, it kinda speaks for itself. Avilo made up his own play style? Nobody plays TvZ mech? I think you need to watch more Sc2 - GoOdy, Strelok, HTOMario, Dayshi. And I really can't believe you are defending <=4 hotkey play from top Pro's - it's not like I put my Rax, CC, Starport, Factory all on one hotkey. As for Avilo, he has never told someone to "get cancer and die" or "David Kim should get raped by a tire iron." I can't say the same for Idra, so defending someone that spews such comments says a lot about the kind of people you support. Yes he did. That BioRaven style is something only he does, that MechRaven turtle, he and goody are the only ones that play it that way, turret PDD tank into 90 minute game. HTOMario retired and used more mines, Strelok plays way more aggressive with hellbat tank, Dayshi hardly does this vs Z unless he's dead. What's the problem with using 4 hotkeys in total? As I explained, that is 1 for production and 3 for army, for Zerg having 1 on production is sufficient if you use camera locations. Are you going to whine about the different races having different production? Sidenote, a good number of players have Rax/Fact/SP on 1 key. And well, as for the last part, I'm sorry I offended your little idol, but the truth is, Avilo is a really nasty bitch in almost every game, insults constantly. You don't need to wish somebody dead to bm. The fact I explain the behaviour IdrA isn't the same as me approving of how he acted, but at least he was good for this community, Avilo is just a really bad example and a sad troll. Stop putting words in my mouth if you disagree and can't win the argument. Lol, so much spite. Did you have some sort of history with Avilo? Did he BM you on stream or something? The only thing I see in this thread is that you show extreme hate toward Avilo (and his fans) without any provocation. That's pretty BM, considering you are relatively anonymous. You also defend Idra who BM just as much if not more, who more than once told the entire community to go fuck themselves. I'd argue Avilo is good for community. He is a good player who put up a consistent stream with good viewer numbers, manage to be somewhat entertaining. I've watched his metagame vods and he doesn't look like a super bias troll who wants to nerf the shit out of protoss random forum posters would like you to believe.
Yes, as said, this is not the place for being an Avilo Fan. I do have a history with him going on a rampage on me after I called him out and he banned me, so well. I do have my reason not to like him.
On the other hand, there's some fanatics around who will defend him at all cost, and those fanatics are not worth my time.
PS He is bad for the community; people that act THAT immature are a burden to the growth of esports as a whole and do nothing but strenghten certain misconceptions people have over gamers.
On May 02 2014 07:57 Plansix wrote:
People don't like Avilo because he never takes accountability for his losses. He accuses people of stream cheating, being cheesy or anything else that can remove the blame him. He whines endlessly about balance and will even talk a little trash when he is beat by Korean pros.
Avilo has fans and that is great, but he is still a whiner and a cry baby and thats not how you become a champion.
Well said.
Now please just call us all haters so you can ignore our opinions, the rest of the discussion can be held in PM with me. TY
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Northern Ireland23718 Posts
In terms of Shost, why not lurkers? They seem to work ok in Starbow as well so they would work in the SC2 engine
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On May 02 2014 08:28 Wombat_NI wrote:
In terms of Shost, why not lurkers? They seem to work ok in Starbow as well so they would work in the SC2 engine
It's impossible to implement a new unit midway through an expansion. Lurkers might have a role, but IMO, they kinda overlap with burrowed banelings or infestors quite a lot...
Sad, because I like Lurkers :D
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Everyone likes Lurkers, they were my favorite SCBW units, but they really don't fulfill the role that Swarm Hosts do. Only thing that these units have in common is that they both need to burrow to be able to attack, but the things they do, how they do, what they counter and what counters them are completely different.
In a game with Colossi, Thors, Immortals, Roaches and Marauders, I really don't think that Lurkers would do much.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On May 02 2014 08:28 Wombat_NI wrote:
In terms of Shost, why not lurkers? They seem to work ok in Starbow as well so they would work in the SC2 engine
Because lurkers will work only against terran bio. In all other cases they can ruin the game more badly than Swarm Hosts.
Versus protoss - stalkers and colossies outrange lurkers, versus bio - same as swarm host, versus mech - yeah, against seeker missiles / thors / banshees really "good", versus zerg - may be a good idea, but I love swarmy stuff more. Zergs in sc2 already lost their swarmy feeling, and Swarm Hosts bringing it back a bit.
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On May 02 2014 08:47 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 08:28 Wombat_NI wrote:
In terms of Shost, why not lurkers? They seem to work ok in Starbow as well so they would work in the SC2 engine Because lurkers will work only against terran bio. In all other cases they can ruin the game more badly than Swarm Hosts. Versus protoss - stalkers and colossies outrange lurkers, versus bio - same as swarm host, versus mech - yeah, against seeker missiles / thors / banshees really "good", versus zerg - may be a good idea, but I love swarmy stuff more. Zergs in sc2 already lost their swarmy feeling, and Swarm Hosts bringing it back a bit.
Talking about that, what could we do to get out of the srrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ZvZ?
Lurkers might actually help there.
I also feel like giving Lurkers 7 range might be pretty decent.
Alas, there'sso much testing required for that, don't expect it before LOTV.
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EPT
