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It's so annoying to hear so radical expectations about personal opinions.. Like seriously - give the man (and me as well  ) a break.. --> highground mechanics ????????, warpgate ??, forcefields ??
If you ask me all those are fine working for, what however isn't working well is that there aren't units that are mitigating splash damage or the ones that dish out splash are relatively simple and/or easy to use.. more like - i'm stating that not forcefields and w-gate, but - the Colossus itself is being the main issue..
But yah - what's concerned about this AMA is that - this time we actually GOT opinions
Perhaps that's why the reaction is so radical all across the board --> yes - he said a lot, we just don't want to acknowledge it cause it didn't fit our "radical" mind enough to follow..
The mere fact that this time we're actually posting replies to his answers as opposed to talking about him as a "faceless" person, is an evidence enough that we got opinions rather than some PR bullsh*t that's being vague overall..
The thing is - I also agree on what he said though
--> The game was bad some 2 months ago... but the last patch literally changes most of all.. like - it sounds as a small impact, but in fact is really big.. like - enormous.. You could even try the Tank-mech BW style with the mines now.. Or even better - try some Biomech for what we know.. Now mines can actually force Protoss back-off
I am personally happy to hear DK thinking of TvZ issue not related or not same reason to the ZvP issue - he thinks that stalemates in TvZ happen because of reasons other than the swarmhost - i.e. - mass Raven.. could be right though - he also said that the team's working on figuring out the SHost..
Like - the words used to answer were constructed a lot in the PR ways, but he actually said his personal opinions with it for a change - it's really something that hasn't happened before
The AMA wasn't radical, but it's not a period when the game needs to be radical.. OK - maybe a bit more radicallity would work well ATM - like the following 2 things though:
--> Mothership (yes, the late-game never-used unit-thing), and the Swarmhost.. Also happy to hear that they're overlooking at the Raven as well ATM, so it's a good focus overall
Other than that - the game seems fine and dynamic enough overall
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I personally have one disliking about this AMA session - the questions were picked by a random reddit thread rather than here on TL like in the basic/standard 20-20 form.. Would've been a lot more refreshing.. Even only-balance talk specifically - a 20-20 would've been in a more unofficial and/or a refreshing tone IMO
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On March 13 2014 22:55 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 22:43 S1eth wrote:On March 13 2014 22:14 Tyrhanius wrote:
The problem is DK try to do as few changes as possible. But patchs are not important just for balance. Patchs are what increase the lengthtime of the game.
If you look at LOL/Dota2, they patch heroes, release new one. Each new season brings a new meta, different ways to play, and it's what keep players on the game, and make the game popular.
But on SC2 we have a minor patch each 3 months. And they don't bring new ways to play or make them more entertaining.
And if you look at HOTS patch history they have nearly only nerf OP stuff.
They only add no real content to the game, making the number of viewers to decrease, but they take very long to patch some broken stuff.
They act like they don't want to recognize something is too strong or they've made a mistake, so they let the thing a lot of time ("we wait the players learn to play to see if it needs a change").
And after they're blocked. Deathball toss are too strong, but Zerg has learn the only way to deal with it is to never engage it, and slowly kill it with SH. same with the new mech (due to DK's buff of raven/tank/banshee).
So they say the game are too long and sometimes boring, but if they nerf SH, they would crush balance because zerg wouldn't be able to win in late. So they can't really nerf SH now, beacause they haven't fixed the issue of lategame Toss when we have reported them.
Or DK makes 3-6 months to fix something obviously imbalance. Is it some nerf players wasn't asking for months he made ? Hellbats drops, WM, buff ghost, MSC nerf, etc... All the things he has done is waiting the longer he can before making something which has to be done, or make insignifiant change, or broken one's("hey it would be could if oracle are as fast as a mutalisk and kill a mineral line just when you press a touch"). If you could stop comparing a boxed copy RTS game with free-to-play MOBA games and could point out an RTS game maker that does a better job at patching/expanding their games than Blizzard does, that's be nice. Is it more difficult to make a new hero or to change hydralisk attack speed to 0.83 to 0.75 ? There is no reason a MOBA are more patch than a RTS. One of the reason a MOBA is more popular is they constantly add stuff, they have understood the new esport, and the new generation of players. But blizzard don't seem to have understood this. They are just : MOBA are popular ? I will make a MOBA too.
Wouldn't new heros be more similar to new ladder maps (which we DO get more frequently now)... The problem isn't the difficulty in making the actual change, it's deciding what to change and how.
Relatively "small" changes in an RTS (like the hydra buff) have a large impact on the overall game (affecting 1/2 of the matchups). You change or add one hero in DotA and you might just end up changing the draw strategy.
It's also probably a lot more straightforward to say X hero is OP/UP because of Y, change Z. However, in an RTS you have to completely look at the overall game from start to finish. Look at what a drastic change giving queens extra range had on the way was able to play.
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On March 14 2014 05:07 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2014 05:06 Frex wrote:
"We also mentioned we would prefer not to make design changes in patches because we don't think it's good for the game to change too much and confuse returning players or players who just don't keep up with every single change we make to the game."
This is just utterly confusing to me.
I was confused when HotS came out, but I loved every single moment of it because it felt fresh. so true this is just a ridiculous and tbh insulting statement to your playerbase
It's odd, because it never stopped Blizzard from making huge, sweeping changes every single patch in WoW. The game can be almost unrecognizable between expansions and for certain a vast number of people will have quit playing WoW because it didn't live up to a previous standard anymore. Blizzard accepts this and calculates that more people will continue to play the game by trying to improve it.
RTS games are different because any change disrupts the competitive scene, which is another factor to keep in mind. If deciding on completely reworking the game you'll have to start out by presuming that the quality of the professional scene will strongly degrade, even if it might improve again years in the future. It's hardly tenable to do this when so many parties have a stake in its continuation and it's only if there are very obvious benefits to change that it's acceptable. It has to be clear to everyone that it will lead to strong future growth, enough to off-set the temporary chaos.
Personally I think that the window for change has passed. Blizzard inexplicably never made any core changes to the game after the beta and instead devoted themselves to hyping up the multiplayer with near-million dollar tournaments. I think it was a mistake, they should have committed to constant fundamental changes until the release of Heart of the Swarm and only then officially launch Starcraft II as an e-sport. I don't know if it would have been the best decision financially, but at least more people would have been happy with the game.
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On March 13 2014 23:46 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 23:29 Sapphire.lux wrote:On March 13 2014 23:00 Big J wrote:On March 13 2014 22:23 Nauseam wrote:On March 13 2014 22:13 Big J wrote:On March 13 2014 22:09 Nauseam wrote:On March 13 2014 22:07 Plansix wrote:On March 13 2014 22:02 Big J wrote:
Btw the real sad story is how the most stupid questions get upvoted on reddit. There were reasonable questions like about Mech TvP, what he thinks about Immortal allins in ZvP, what about the one or other specific unit.
You know, stuff where he could actually say something meaningful. Instead we get those "are there big chances coming, tell us everything about your companies secrets please". "Why don't you redesign the game in a patch" bullshit questions that have been asked before and are vague as shit. Agreed. The fact that he was asked the same questions as last time is a bummer. I would have liked to see someone beyond "are you guys getting rid of warpgate and force field yet?" Those questions are a lot more important than asking about some random all-in from Toss. I dont care if they are more important to you personally. They dont yield anything. It's a waste of time to ask a firm about it's secrets... And I don't care if you think changing some numbers on some units is important because it makes one random Toss all-in out of a thousand less strong. Why even have an AMA if he can't answer any questions of substantial value? And besides, he did answer about their "secrets" although he answers like a politician. I find it pretty obvious from his answers that Blizzard thinks most of the core mechanics in SC2 are in a good state. Also, he said they won't risk changing anything fundamental unless it's "absolutely amazing" which means they won't change anything at all. So no, those questions were not a waste of time. Yes, he said that 5AMAs ago. Those are answers from 2011 and 2012. Why the fuck ask the same question again? It's a waste of time. He answered those things in the last AMA already, which was what, 2months ago. Yes, he answered like a politician. If he didn't, instead of 10page os "omg, he doesn't say anything"-bullshit, we'd now be reading through 100pages of "omg, they are going to introduce another splash unit for Protoss. Haven't they learned anything from the Colossus???????????????????" (assuming he reveals they have experimented with anything splash related). It would be even worse, even though the unit would not even make it into the game. That's why he rather says nothing that isn't at least 10% confirmed. You know, what's the safest scenario for blizzard: a) "yup, we will try a highground advantage for LotV" in 2014 - just that it may get cut again in 2015 b) "no, we heard you but we won't include highground advantages. We tried them, they are shit" in 2014 c) "we are trying it guys. But if it does not fit the game it won't make it in" in 2014 It's c). If they are not sure, they will not tell you. End of story. It makes the most sense. TBF though, the deathball, economy, high ground, etc questions, are more "this is what we want! please implement!" sort of feedback rather then just honest questions. It's Blizzards failure to categorically state their position that makes this sort of feedback keep coming up. This time though, he was very clear IMO about most of those things. Still, questions in the form of "wishlist" will still crop up. Like the situation with mech. One week they say "we want mech, we made new units to make it work" next week they say "we don't want mech, it's boring" and then back to "we want mech again". What the Hell is one supposed to think? They needed a new lead game designer after WOL IMO, someone with focus and a clear vision. They never said: "we dont want mech, it's boring". That's another one of those problems with the AMAs. People read into it what they want to read into it. And then circlejerk it up until "that is what they said". The comment you are referring to was something along the lines of "we don't want passive siege tank sitback play". Which is not the same as "we don't want siege tanks to be used" or even more "we don't want mech". There can be Mech without that aspect they don't want. Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 23:16 Nauseam wrote:On March 13 2014 23:00 Big J wrote:On March 13 2014 22:23 Nauseam wrote:On March 13 2014 22:13 Big J wrote:On March 13 2014 22:09 Nauseam wrote:On March 13 2014 22:07 Plansix wrote:On March 13 2014 22:02 Big J wrote:
Btw the real sad story is how the most stupid questions get upvoted on reddit. There were reasonable questions like about Mech TvP, what he thinks about Immortal allins in ZvP, what about the one or other specific unit.
You know, stuff where he could actually say something meaningful. Instead we get those "are there big chances coming, tell us everything about your companies secrets please". "Why don't you redesign the game in a patch" bullshit questions that have been asked before and are vague as shit. Agreed. The fact that he was asked the same questions as last time is a bummer. I would have liked to see someone beyond "are you guys getting rid of warpgate and force field yet?" Those questions are a lot more important than asking about some random all-in from Toss. I dont care if they are more important to you personally. They dont yield anything. It's a waste of time to ask a firm about it's secrets... And I don't care if you think changing some numbers on some units is important because it makes one random Toss all-in out of a thousand less strong. Why even have an AMA if he can't answer any questions of substantial value? And besides, he did answer about their "secrets" although he answers like a politician. I find it pretty obvious from his answers that Blizzard thinks most of the core mechanics in SC2 are in a good state. Also, he said they won't risk changing anything fundamental unless it's "absolutely amazing" which means they won't change anything at all. So no, those questions were not a waste of time. Yes, he said that 5AMAs ago. Those are answers from 2011 and 2012. Why the fuck ask the same question again? It's a waste of time. He answered those things in the last AMA already, which was what, 2months ago. Yes, he answered like a politician. If he didn't, instead of 10page os "omg, he doesn't say anything"-bullshit, we'd now be reading through 100pages of "omg, they are going to introduce another splash unit for Protoss. Haven't they learned anything from the Colossus???????????????????" (assuming he reveals they have experimented with anything splash related). It would be even worse, even though the unit would not even make it into the game. That's why he rather says nothing that isn't at least 10% confirmed. You know, what's the safest scenario for blizzard: a) "yup, we will try a highground advantage for LotV" in 2014 - just that it may get cut again in 2015 b) "no, we heard you but we won't include highground advantages. We tried them, they are shit" in 2014 c) "we are trying it guys. But if it does not fit the game it won't make it in" in 2014 It's c). If they are not sure, they will not tell you. End of story. It makes the most sense. People ask those questions over and over cause they are the most important ones hoping that Blizzard might have taken a new stance on them. Quite easy to understand. But if you wanna see him answer some questions about how he is gonna tweak some numbers on a unit which does little to nothing to actually CHANGE the game it's fine I suppose. Most people wanna see some real answers to the big questions though. You are defeating your own arguments with your example. Why even have an AMA in the first place if they can't answer anything really? Only thing they accomplish with AMA's like this one is lowering the confidence the SC2 community has in Blizzard. They don't "calm the community", they do the exact opposite of it. People have high standards in a Blizzard title. They don't accept SC2 or Diablo3 just being good. It's supposed to be "fucking amazing cause it's Blizzard". If SC2 or Diablo3 were released by some random company I guarantee you that the amount of whine would be a fraction of what it is today and has been since their releases. OK, keep talking. What's a real answer as you put it to: Q: Are any "large scale" or "mechanic" redesigns being considering for Legacy of the Void? For example considering changing mechanics around high ground advantage, the soft 3 base income cap, warpgate, etc?give an example.
Great comeback you had there neglecting my whole post.
A real answer would obviously look like: "Yes, we are going to change X" or "No, we are not going to change X". Now, that wasn't so hard was it?
And if Blizzard don't wanna reveal their plans for the future and therefore answers like David Kim did the AMA serves no purpose at all other than piss most people off.
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On March 14 2014 04:08 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2014 03:38 Xiphos wrote:On March 14 2014 03:10 aZealot wrote:On March 13 2014 23:41 Grumbels wrote:On March 13 2014 23:29 Sapphire.lux wrote:On March 13 2014 23:00 Big J wrote:On March 13 2014 22:23 Nauseam wrote:On March 13 2014 22:13 Big J wrote:On March 13 2014 22:09 Nauseam wrote:On March 13 2014 22:07 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Agreed. The fact that he was asked the same questions as last time is a bummer. I would have liked to see someone beyond "are you guys getting rid of warpgate and force field yet?" Those questions are a lot more important than asking about some random all-in from Toss. I dont care if they are more important to you personally. They dont yield anything. It's a waste of time to ask a firm about it's secrets... And I don't care if you think changing some numbers on some units is important because it makes one random Toss all-in out of a thousand less strong. Why even have an AMA if he can't answer any questions of substantial value? And besides, he did answer about their "secrets" although he answers like a politician. I find it pretty obvious from his answers that Blizzard thinks most of the core mechanics in SC2 are in a good state. Also, he said they won't risk changing anything fundamental unless it's "absolutely amazing" which means they won't change anything at all. So no, those questions were not a waste of time. Yes, he said that 5AMAs ago. Those are answers from 2011 and 2012. Why the fuck ask the same question again? It's a waste of time. He answered those things in the last AMA already, which was what, 2months ago. Yes, he answered like a politician. If he didn't, instead of 10page os "omg, he doesn't say anything"-bullshit, we'd now be reading through 100pages of "omg, they are going to introduce another splash unit for Protoss. Haven't they learned anything from the Colossus???????????????????" (assuming he reveals they have experimented with anything splash related). It would be even worse, even though the unit would not even make it into the game. That's why he rather says nothing that isn't at least 10% confirmed. You know, what's the safest scenario for blizzard: a) "yup, we will try a highground advantage for LotV" in 2014 - just that it may get cut again in 2015 b) "no, we heard you but we won't include highground advantages. We tried them, they are shit" in 2014 c) "we are trying it guys. But if it does not fit the game it won't make it in" in 2014 It's c). If they are not sure, they will not tell you. End of story. It makes the most sense. TBF though, the deathball, economy, high ground, etc questions, are more "this is what we want! please implement!" sort of feedback rather then just honest questions. It's Blizzards failure to categorically state their position that makes this sort of feedback keep coming up. This time though, he was very clear IMO about most of those things. Still, questions in the form of "wishlist" will still crop up. Like the situation with mech. One week they say "we want mech, we made new units to make it work" next week they say "we don't want mech, it's boring" and then back to "we want mech again". What the Hell is one supposed to think? They needed a new lead game designer after WOL IMO, someone with focus and a clear vision. Something potentially interesting is for David Kim to contrast the Starbow implementation of all these things with the Blizzard implementation. That would be productive probably, and give a clear idea of David Kim's true opinion. But of course he is not going to do that. Blizzard hasn't really given any meaningful statements on Starbow's design outside of implying that it serves a purpose in giving part of the fan base what it desires, but they haven't said that this reflects in any way on Starcraft 2. To be quite honest, someone in David Kim's position should be highly interested in Starbow. It's essentially an alternative approach to the game that he is responsible for and which calls into question many decisions that he has made in the past. From a professional perspective it should be fascinating, unless, of course, Blizzard has no real interest in making any significant changes to SC2 anymore. I'm not sure why you think they should do that. Starbow remains what it is, a good mod that is a BW and SC2 knock-off. What would he need to comment on in comparison to SC2 and why? And no, I don't imagine any significant changes to SC2. A LOT of things can be improved in SC2. But oh wait if your thing is purely based upon a 15 minutes build into 10 seconds clash battle, then SC2 is definitely excellent for you. However some us actually prefer to have multitasking all the over the map in attempt to kill expo and expo ourselves all over it to have more spread out battles, then we got a whole different philosophy going on. One is simpler while the other is more complex. A lot of things can be improved in SC2, I agree. But, what they are and how they might be achieved and what it might take to achieve and whether that is possible are all points to consider. I do not think that core changes to SC2 are necessary. Even if it were, the window for that is gone with HOTS. If the game was radically overhauled for LOTV (as many want), I think the game would die as you lose multiple years of sunk costs and the game is effectively "re-set" for no certain gain. A shrinking of the overall player base would be the result. As players relearn the game, the quality of the pro product would also be poor further affecting player uptake and spectator base. SC2, overall, is in a better place than it has ever been. IEM Cologne was evidence of that. As is the number of good games of SC2 we have had so far this year. Will there be blips along the way? Sure. But the trend line is positive and upward. There is no need for core change. The evidence does not support it. (Even if major changes are required, patches and piecemeal solutions may fix it. Sure, they may be ugly. But, I am happy to trade off achievable ugly changes against the beautiful design in my mind. The main thing is that it works.) As to what the rest of your post is about, apart from being a load of condescending shit, I don't agree. At the highest level of play games are played with multiple bases and multiple fights. I play like that too in some of my games, albeit on a smaller scale, especially PvZ and PvP (but I do so badly because my mechanics are bad). As such, I still enjoy the game, to play and to watch. I really don't care that you do not; nothing is preventing you from playing (or watching) more Starbow (or anything else). As to Starbow, it is a good game. I have played it. Starbow is funny though, it's a free game that more people seem to actually talk about playing than actually playing. I prefer SC2: to play and to watch. So, for that matter, it seems do a lot of people even if some of them appear to spend most of it complaining about SC2. Still, I guess it shows they still care about the game. And that can only be a good thing. Maybe.
Great post. This is exactly what I think about SC2 right now!
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Poll: Do you get confused, when a change in the game design happens?No, changes are a natural part of the progress of the game. (35) 88% Yes, i get confused, but after a couple of games, I get used to it. (4) 10% I don't play the game alot, so changes to the game mechanics confuse me. (1) 3% I get annoyed by the changes, but they are good for the overall game (0) 0% I am a very confused person. This poll confuses me. Do not like change!! (0) 0% 40 total votes Your vote: Do you get confused, when a change in the game design happens? (Vote): No, changes are a natural part of the progress of the game.
(Vote): Yes, i get confused, but after a couple of games, I get used to it.
(Vote): I get annoyed by the changes, but they are good for the overall game
(Vote): I don't play the game alot, so changes to the game mechanics confuse me.
(Vote): I am a very confused person. This poll confuses me. Do not like change!!
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Hoping the come up with some sort of solution to boring swarm host play
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LotV will revitalize SC2, I hope.
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On March 14 2014 07:16 NeThZOR wrote:
LotV will revitalize SC2, I hope.
Is it worth to regain some faith if we are going to get disappointed?
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Northern Ireland26051 Posts
On March 13 2014 22:02 Big J wrote:
Btw the real sad story is how the most stupid questions get upvoted on reddit. There were reasonable questions like about Mech TvP, what he thinks about Immortal allins in ZvP, what about the one or other specific unit.
You know, stuff where he could actually say something meaningful. Instead we get those "are there big chances coming, tell us everything about your companies secrets please". "Why don't you redesign the game in a patch" bullshit questions that have been asked before and are vague as shit.
That's why you should have a Blizz guy on TeamLiquid . I hate Reddit's upvote system because all it does is cater to some of the most obnoxious aspects of the community and all nuanced discussion is abandoned.
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On March 14 2014 07:16 NeThZOR wrote:
LotV will revitalize SC2, I hope.
Really, I get the opposite impression from this.
They're not considering any core changes, they like forcefield, they like clumping, they like high-ground mechanics. Starbow showed they can work really well even without resorting to code changes yet he's dismissed them explicitly saying they don't in this AMA. It'll just be a small interest peak in the new units then it will fade away.
Reading this we can expect LotV to bring a handful of units and a new type of rocks.
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On March 14 2014 07:16 NeThZOR wrote:
LotV will revitalize SC2, I hope.
LotV is just another game for Blizzard to disappoint us with.
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There are people out there that want such major changes (which is sort of what the mod community is for), but there are also people out there who like the current core systems the way they are.
I'd like to see those.
Thanks for another bullshit interview Mr. Kim no one can dodge questions as you can.
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On March 14 2014 09:52 Elvin wrote:Show nested quote +There are people out there that want such major changes (which is sort of what the mod community is for), but there are also people out there who like the current core systems the way they are. I'd like to see those. Thanks for another bullshit interview Mr. Kim no one can dodge questions as you can.
They are in this thread. I know, its hard to believe, but its true.
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I have to say the AMA was extremely disappointing, because they are too scared to make big changes. You know what? The game is not doing well and one of the things that they can do is to make big changes.
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On March 14 2014 09:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2014 09:52 Elvin wrote:There are people out there that want such major changes (which is sort of what the mod community is for), but there are also people out there who like the current core systems the way they are. I'd like to see those. Thanks for another bullshit interview Mr. Kim no one can dodge questions as you can. They are in this thread. I know, its hard to believe, but its true.
They're naturally becoming the majority, most of those who were hoping for a BW sequel have departed.
If he keeps giving us the same things eventually he'll be entirely correct about what's left of the player base wants. 15minute no rush deathball clash fans will be the majority.
Artosis has always been a big champion of that and (after getting hooked on starbow for a bit) he's drifting off to hearthstone.
I suspect likewise large numbers of those saying everything is great will get bored too at some point... But they won't complain, then they'll move on to blindly loving something else. It's in their nature.
Of course there are others who just haven't seen what RTS can be. Broodwars engagements are excellent but it hurts the eyes of someone used to modern games, I personally find it very hard to watch.
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just played 5 TvPs (EU Master) and won with WM drop and mass marine only bio. Held off blink on heavy rain with no bunkers, game is balanced
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Q: Today, are you globally satisfied of the balance of your game ?
- Hide Spoiler -
A: I think it's safe to say that our balance design team is satisfied enough.
There is no perfect with an ever-changing metagame and so many variables, so they can't/don't/won't ever reach "global satisfaction". There are always concerns to be addressed.
........................
the game hardly evolves and becomes super 1 dimensional, thus more and more people quit the game. #satisfied
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Welp its official these responses gave me aids in my brain
More good questions with answers like "We want to" "Were looking into it" "Its something we have planned"
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On March 14 2014 11:46 jcroisdale wrote:
Welp its official these responses gave me aids in my brain
More good questions with answers like "We want to" "Were looking into it" "Its something we have planned"
couldn't have said it better myself
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EPT
