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On February 15 2014 23:38 Saumure wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 23:32 Big J wrote:
Unless I'm missing something huge, I don't see any reason to believe that PvZ is imbalanced, or has been imbalanced in the last few months or even anytime during HotS. I would just like to quote ToD doing some analysis during IEM: "There is no MSC with this army, this is not supposed to happen" lol seriously, do you really think it is normal to go sniping hatches without any risk xD?
No, I'm not gonna discuss PvZ balance based upon a single move that happened in a game that you are pissed right now. Really not. Even more I could tell you why it was completely fine not to have an MsC with that army in that situation.
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Italy12247 Posts
On February 15 2014 23:32 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 23:28 Dwayn wrote:
MC is wrong, it's not just the map and PvZ is not 50/50. Not too surprising that he would be biased. PvZ is kind of ~50% everywhere. Proleague, Code A (if you eliminate all the old Deadalus games, else it's a little Zergfavored), Code S, aligulac, ladder. Unless I'm missing something huge, I don't see any reason to believe that PvZ is imbalanced, or has been imbalanced in the last few months or even anytime during HotS.
Yep it's 50%, and in fact Zerg and Protoss are in fact even at the top (code S distribution). It's just that the infamous "vocal minority" of the community has devolved into endless whining and screaming at every possible reason, wether that's justified or not, like never before. It's quite saddening honestly.
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On February 15 2014 23:44 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 23:38 Saumure wrote:On February 15 2014 23:32 Big J wrote:
Unless I'm missing something huge, I don't see any reason to believe that PvZ is imbalanced, or has been imbalanced in the last few months or even anytime during HotS. I would just like to quote ToD doing some analysis during IEM: "There is no MSC with this army, this is not supposed to happen" lol seriously, do you really think it is normal to go sniping hatches without any risk xD? No, I'm not gonna discuss PvZ balance based upon a single move that happened in a game that you are pissed right now. Really not. Even more I could tell you why it was completely fine not to have an MsC with that army in that situation.
Ok more generally, do you really think it is balanced to walk around the map with no risk? I always thought of RTS to be partially about placement.
Please don't respond, I don't want to hear you sophistical dishonesty
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Sure MC has some points there and without the maps where blink is THE strategy to go for it the matchup would be more balanced, win-ratio wise.
But seriously, he seems like a offended little kid to me who is angry because Protoss wins don't get honored anymore.
I'm sure that all the top Protoss players out there are working hard to get their things done but still:
NOBODY can tell me that in a late game situation where Toss and Terran are both maxed out and the battle begins, the Toss nearly has as much effort as the Terran to control his army without losing all his units badly.
Also, it's just a fact that Protoss has the most the most cheesy builds that can straight up end in a build order win when the opponent reacts in the wrong way (Proxy Oracle/ DT), whereas Toss itself is pretty save against every push because of Photon Cannon, MSC and Forcefields.
I'm not saying Toss is overpowered if both players play their races up to the limit, I just feel like if you put the same work into all three races, you will advance furthest playing Protoss.
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On February 15 2014 23:52 Saumure wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 23:44 Big J wrote:On February 15 2014 23:38 Saumure wrote:On February 15 2014 23:32 Big J wrote:
Unless I'm missing something huge, I don't see any reason to believe that PvZ is imbalanced, or has been imbalanced in the last few months or even anytime during HotS. I would just like to quote ToD doing some analysis during IEM: "There is no MSC with this army, this is not supposed to happen" lol seriously, do you really think it is normal to go sniping hatches without any risk xD? No, I'm not gonna discuss PvZ balance based upon a single move that happened in a game that you are pissed right now. Really not. Even more I could tell you why it was completely fine not to have an MsC with that army in that situation. Ok more generally, do you really think it is balanced to walk around the map with no risk? I always thought of RTS to be partially about placement. Please don't respond, I don't want to hear you sophisitical dishonesty
Yes, it is safe to walk around the map if you have complete intell of your opponents position. That's why he could do that.
Mana knew how big Jaedongs army was, because he happened to meet the roaches half way with that push and he had an observer on the swarm hosts. It's Jaedong who fucked up and didn't react to Manas movement when the roaches and the Colossus/Stalker/Sentry army spotted each other. If Jaedong brings the SHs on top of the roaches to the 3rd/4th, Mana has to back off immidiatly.
Yet even more, Mana was in a better position regardless since Jaedong read the opening wrong, didn't scout the VRs and went for a tech (SH/roach) that gets punished by VR play. Jaedong made 3big mistakes in that game: 1overreacting to Manas first pressure, 2not scouting properly and gambling on needing no antiair/even not starting Antiair when he saw the VRs over a minute before Manas big play happened, 3not reacting properly to Manas movement.
You are right, RTS is a lot about placement and Jaedong fucked up in multiple ways.
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On February 15 2014 23:59 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 23:52 Saumure wrote:On February 15 2014 23:44 Big J wrote:On February 15 2014 23:38 Saumure wrote:On February 15 2014 23:32 Big J wrote:
Unless I'm missing something huge, I don't see any reason to believe that PvZ is imbalanced, or has been imbalanced in the last few months or even anytime during HotS. I would just like to quote ToD doing some analysis during IEM: "There is no MSC with this army, this is not supposed to happen" lol seriously, do you really think it is normal to go sniping hatches without any risk xD? No, I'm not gonna discuss PvZ balance based upon a single move that happened in a game that you are pissed right now. Really not. Even more I could tell you why it was completely fine not to have an MsC with that army in that situation. Ok more generally, do you really think it is balanced to walk around the map with no risk? I always thought of RTS to be partially about placement. Please don't respond, I don't want to hear you sophisitical dishonesty Yes, it is safe to walk around the map if you have complete intell of your opponents position. That's why he could do that. Mana knew how big Jaedongs army was, because he happened to meet the roaches half way with that push and he had an observer on the swarm hosts. It's Jaedong who fucked up and didn't react to Manas movement when the roaches and the Colossus/Stalker/Sentry army spotted each other. If Jaedong brings the SHs on top of the roaches to the 3rd/4th, Mana has to back off immidiatly. Yet even more, Mana was in a better position regardless since Jaedong read the opening wrong, didn't scout the VRs and went for a tech (SH/roach) that gets punished by VR play. Jaedong made 3big mistakes in that game: 1overreacting to Manas first pressure, 2not scouting properly and gambling on needing no antiair/even not starting Antiair when he saw the VRs over a minute before Manas big play happened, 3not reacting properly to Manas movement. You are right, RTS is a lot about placement and Jaedong fucked up in multiple ways.
No, I'm not gonna discuss PvZ balance based upon a single move that happened. Really not.
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On February 15 2014 22:39 ImperialFist wrote:
funny how mc has done this twice in order to try to make money and some people actually treat him seriously.
My thoughts exactly.
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On February 16 2014 00:03 Saumure wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 23:59 Big J wrote:On February 15 2014 23:52 Saumure wrote:On February 15 2014 23:44 Big J wrote:On February 15 2014 23:38 Saumure wrote:On February 15 2014 23:32 Big J wrote:
Unless I'm missing something huge, I don't see any reason to believe that PvZ is imbalanced, or has been imbalanced in the last few months or even anytime during HotS. I would just like to quote ToD doing some analysis during IEM: "There is no MSC with this army, this is not supposed to happen" lol seriously, do you really think it is normal to go sniping hatches without any risk xD? No, I'm not gonna discuss PvZ balance based upon a single move that happened in a game that you are pissed right now. Really not. Even more I could tell you why it was completely fine not to have an MsC with that army in that situation. Ok more generally, do you really think it is balanced to walk around the map with no risk? I always thought of RTS to be partially about placement. Please don't respond, I don't want to hear you sophisitical dishonesty Yes, it is safe to walk around the map if you have complete intell of your opponents position. That's why he could do that. Mana knew how big Jaedongs army was, because he happened to meet the roaches half way with that push and he had an observer on the swarm hosts. It's Jaedong who fucked up and didn't react to Manas movement when the roaches and the Colossus/Stalker/Sentry army spotted each other. If Jaedong brings the SHs on top of the roaches to the 3rd/4th, Mana has to back off immidiatly. Yet even more, Mana was in a better position regardless since Jaedong read the opening wrong, didn't scout the VRs and went for a tech (SH/roach) that gets punished by VR play. Jaedong made 3big mistakes in that game: 1overreacting to Manas first pressure, 2not scouting properly and gambling on needing no antiair/even not starting Antiair when he saw the VRs over a minute before Manas big play happened, 3not reacting properly to Manas movement. You are right, RTS is a lot about placement and Jaedong fucked up in multiple ways. No, I'm not gonna discuss PvZ balance based upon a single move that happened. Really not.
I did not do that. I only said why the particular move in this particular game was not risky. Nowhere did I imply that this is the reason why I believe PvZ is balanced. (unlike you who brought up that example as answer of me asking whether I was missing something huge to consider for PvZ balance). You really have to try harder than that.
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On February 16 2014 00:03 Lurtzer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 22:39 ImperialFist wrote:
funny how mc has done this twice in order to try to make money and some people actually treat him seriously. My thoughts exactly.
How is MC making money from expressing his opinion?
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I think the game is relatively balanced at the highest level in terms of percentages, but percentages are a very one-dimensional way of looking at balance. The skill differential allows foreign Protosses to beat Koreans even in series matches (vZ, vT, and vP), whereas foreign Terrans basically have a far worse winrate against Koreans.
Not to discount the best of the foreigners, but I do think that many of the times that foreigners beat Koreans is due to the race skill differential.
Plus, I'm just a Korean fan, and Protoss is pretty meh to spectate. Make the race more difficult to play. This actually applies more to buffs. Buffs should help the better player, so if they can control better, they get the buff.
<3
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I don't think any zerg is complaining about win rates in pvz, what they dislike is the sheer amount of abusive strategies they have to put up with which are more than ever, and on top of that the only option zerg has is to aim for a 3hour swarmhost lategame which is fucking soul destroying.
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On February 16 2014 00:13 MattD wrote:
I don't think any zerg is complaining about win rates in pvz, what they dislike is the sheer amount of abusive strategies they have to put up with which are more than ever, and on top of that the only option zerg has is to aim for a 3hour swarmhost lategame which is fucking soul destroying.
I support this.
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He's kinda right but I feel if maps have to be one way to account for super strong blink all ins on top of all the PvZ constraints that's a problem that will stagnate the game more.
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Bosstoss laying down the real talk :D
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On February 16 2014 00:11 coloursheep wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2014 00:03 Lurtzer wrote:On February 15 2014 22:39 ImperialFist wrote:
funny how mc has done this twice in order to try to make money and some people actually treat him seriously. My thoughts exactly. How is MC making money from expressing his opinion?
Because most tournament don't prioritize player's raw skills over huge personality draws (especially foreign events). MC, although skillful at the game isn't exactly someone who is "S-class". So being controversial only adds to his "personality-traits" or w/e the average poster here defines it.
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On February 16 2014 00:11 coloursheep wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2014 00:03 Lurtzer wrote:On February 15 2014 22:39 ImperialFist wrote:
funny how mc has done this twice in order to try to make money and some people actually treat him seriously. My thoughts exactly. How is MC making money from expressing his opinion?
Because balance changes could affect his tournament results and thus earnings?
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On February 16 2014 00:37 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2014 00:11 coloursheep wrote:On February 16 2014 00:03 Lurtzer wrote:On February 15 2014 22:39 ImperialFist wrote:
funny how mc has done this twice in order to try to make money and some people actually treat him seriously. My thoughts exactly. How is MC making money from expressing his opinion? Because most tournament don't prioritize player's raw skills over huge personality draws (especially foreign events). MC, although skillful at the game isn't exactly someone who is "S-class". So being controversial only adds to his "personality-traits" or w/e the average poster here defines it.
Is this a bad thing? Personality is what makes these events interesting not some X player that was able to do his timing perfectly. It's cool in the beginning, but then it gets boring. Take personality expressions as a breath of fresh air. This doesn't mean someone being rude every time is justified though. There's more to that.
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On February 15 2014 23:52 Saumure wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 23:44 Big J wrote:On February 15 2014 23:38 Saumure wrote:On February 15 2014 23:32 Big J wrote:
Unless I'm missing something huge, I don't see any reason to believe that PvZ is imbalanced, or has been imbalanced in the last few months or even anytime during HotS. I would just like to quote ToD doing some analysis during IEM: "There is no MSC with this army, this is not supposed to happen" lol seriously, do you really think it is normal to go sniping hatches without any risk xD? No, I'm not gonna discuss PvZ balance based upon a single move that happened in a game that you are pissed right now. Really not. Even more I could tell you why it was completely fine not to have an MsC with that army in that situation. Ok more generally, do you really think it is balanced to walk around the map with no risk? I always thought of RTS to be partially about placement. Please don't respond, I don't want to hear you sophistical dishonesty
I dunno, was it balanced in Brood War?
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Its a design issue, not a balance one, people are whining because they dont like how the game is played but there is no alternative to it so far.
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EPT
